View Full Version : Does the second round in your Pmags tilt/move/cross and prevent a tactical reload?
With several M2 and M3 Pmags, I am noticing that the shoulder of the second round moves upward and begins to cross over the first round in the magazine. This is especially bothersome as it in most instances will prevent seating of the magazine on a closed bolt (i.e., a tactical reload). Pushing down on the tilted round allows seating of the magazine, until it happens again... Who else has experienced this with Pmags? If so, what generation Pmags? Has anyone found a remedy for this defect? I have not been able to replicate this with USGI mags. Any insight into this is appreciated.
sinlessorrow
03-24-15, 00:49
My Gen 2 Pmags do this sometimes if I forcefully and quickly try to slam them in on a closed bolt. Kind of annoying honestly.
Happened frequently. Ditched Pmags for USGI mags because of it.
Some background info for reference. Small batch of "M" Rev. mags had some issues. Surprised to see a similar issue crop up with some "M2" and "M3" mags. I would consider contacting Magpul Customer Service. I'm sure they would be very interested in getting this resolved.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?108283-Pmag-30rd-jamming
I've not seen this with fully loaded Pmags, but it does provide a tight fit, at times, during tactical reload.
But....I now also only load to 28 when I'm in a class, so that tac reloading will never be a problem. One of the instructors I had during my first carbine class recommended that, and actually does that with any type of mag.
Your mileage may vary.
I've had it happen with a few of my Gen 2 Pmags.
Some background info for reference. Small batch of "M" Rev. mags had some issues. Surprised to see a similar issue crop up with some "M2" and "M3" mags. I would consider contacting Magpul Customer Service. I'm sure they would be very interested in getting this resolved.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?108283-Pmag-30rd-jamming
Interesting. It appears the same issue is taking place with some M2s and M3s.
Does anyone know the date range of the M-revs that were having this issue?
VelveteenMole
03-24-15, 17:13
I have this issue with M3s (only kind I own). It's even stopped the bolt dead a couple times halfway through stripping the round when the I hit the paddle. Not very encouraging. Buffer spring is still as long as my new spare, both BCM springs, BCM upper, well lubed with Slip EWL, once was 30ish degree weather, once was 50ish. Seems it's the mags. Lancers work fine.
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sevenhelmet
03-25-15, 20:19
This is disconcerting since all I have are PMAG M2 and M3s. I will be watching very carefully for this.
10-05-14, 18:39
#30
RichFitz
RichFitz is offline
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Join Date:Mar 2008Posts:100Feedback Score:0
Quote Originally Posted by AM-15 View Post
I do not want to get off topic here so mods delete or move if needed.
My background is over 30 years of automotive mechanics and now forensic mechanical failure analysis in the automotive industry.
Therefore I like to analyze things for cause of failure.
Question is what were and cause of the gen2 20rd magazine problems ?
Not that it matters cause the gen3 20 rounder that I have has been flawless to date.
I have extensively tested 14 gen2 30 rounders to be good to go and ordered 15 dust covers to put away into an ammo can completely loaded for the just in case situation. Just want to protect them from the moving and banging around that may happen while in the can and storage.
The top two rounds getting crossed over I could not duplicate by natural means, only way was to reach in and grab the second round and physically pull it up above the top round to replicate it. So to me it is a non issue with the magazines that I have in my possession.
Clarence
The issue on the early 20 round M3 was "extreme transposition" of the rounds (with particular small case size) causing a failure to seat when inserting the magazine on a closed bolt. Transposition position of the rounds is normal due to the round stack curvature and does not affect the magazine function.
Here is the full range test report posted a month ago on this subject...
***Previous Posted Report***
I haven’t jumped in here ‘til now because we do in fact take every customer issue very seriously, and we wanted to do some additional testing of past and current product in order to have the most complete and absolute information. Although we looked at this exact occurrence in the PMAG30 in initial pre-release testing and again back when we looked at the PMAG20, we cleaned off the calendar and got busy at the range.
We’ve spent the last few days re-validating lab and range testing regarding the GEN M3 magazine and the behavior of the top two rounds, which we call “transposition”, just to make sure that nothing had changed, and that current results matched previous efforts. All molds, variants, and sizes have been looked at.
Since this thread got me out of the office and on the range, which I generally appreciate, I’ll give you the long version, so everyone that wants to wade through it will have the complete picture. Bear with me, it’s all relevant.
If you get bored with my rambling at any point, you can skip to the “Cliffs Notes” summary at the end.
The GEN M3 project began when we had accumulated significant enough advances in certain technologies to make a meaningful difference in some performance aspects, and to achieve universal fitment with Colt/M16/M4 and compatible platforms as well as platforms with the HK416/SA80 magwell. Although we already had a great track record in combat use and in many of these categories with the GENM2 or MREV PMAG, we never stop improvement efforts. Some of the aspects that we sought and achieved improvement on were drop-free performance in min-spec magwells, improved stiffness, strength, and durability, improved performance in cold weather to -60 deg F, improved performance in dust and grit, and overall feeding reliability.
These efforts resulted in a magazine that has been successful in achieving our goals, and that we are confident is the most reliable and durable magazine available. We’ve got over a quarter of a million rounds downrange at this point, it’s been through field trials with military units, it’s in law enforcement service, it’s been downrange, it is used by many of the most successful competitive shooters and trainers in the world, and we continually test for QC.
OK…this is where we tie this in to the issue at hand. I’ll talk about what you are seeing, and then I’ll tell you what our test results show. This requires us to share more about the PMAG than we’d like, but here goes…
Dust and grit are enemies of firearms and magazines in general. In current conflicts, as much or more so, than in any previous operational environment, these factors can be deadly if your gear can’t take it. The GEN M2 PMAG works very well in dust/grit tests, but we wanted to improve this with the Gen M3. Friction or drag on the stack/follower/individual rounds on the way to the chamber is what makes grit stop guns, and the PMAG combats this in numerous ways. Relevant to the current topic of discussion is the fact that we minimize the contact that the round has with other surfaces as much as possible. Less surface contact equals less drag. Feeding into the chamber is as important as when riding up the stack in the mag body. To minimize drag/friction, we minimize contact with mag/other cartridge surfaces while still completely and resiliently controlling feed geometry. To do this, you have to flirt with instability to some extent, and get the mix just right. Too much contact equals great control without optimized drag. Too little contact equals minimal drag and a mag that won’t feed worth a darn because presentation isn’t controlled. It’s a fine line. We’re always looking for ways to improve, but this is the best way we’ve found to do it, and it works very, very well.
This transposition is rare in other magazines, but can occur in some of the samples we’ve tested, probably due to tolerance variation more than design intent due to the inconsistency of its occurrence. It may occur with a flick, a smack, or extended carry in a pouch depending on the sample, but is generally less likely than with a PMAG.
All PMAGs play this balancing act very well, and especially in the GEN M3, this manifests itself in what may appear to be the rounds at the top of the stack having some “freedom”. With various manipulations of a loaded mag, you may indeed be able to induce this partial “transposition” of the top two rounds to a lesser or greater extent, depending a great deal on ammunition type/shoulder size. Smaller diameter ammunition shoulders, even a few thousandths, may allow this to occur more readily than larger diameter, but still in-spec ammunition. On a few of the PMAG20 GEN M3 magazines, there was enough of a tolerance stacking issue where you could indeed, with the right combination of gun, ammo, and mag, induce a failure that would not allow seating, but we have not seen that since the fix for those affected mags, or in any other magazines across the entire line, without deliberately setting up a failure by prying up the round with a tool, to the same extent that you can do that in any other magazine, and believe me, we’ve tested a lot of combinations. The PMAG20 was long ago corrected, and we monitor this in QC with all mags.
As long as loaded rounds do not to creep forward enough to catch the front edge of the mag when you try to insert it (possible with any magazine…try it) you should have no problem inserting and locking the magazine on a closed bolt, regardless of the position of the rounds with respect to this transposition occurrence. The required force may increase a bit, but we’ll get to how much in a minute--certainly nothing unreasonable. The first time the bolt starts rearward, the stack self-corrects, if it hasn’t already self-corrected on insertion. If I had a nickel for every time we’ve tested this on the GEN M3 mags to prove it, I’d be typing this from a hammock in Fiji.
To illustrate what I’m talking about, I’ll cover some of our testing.
In the lab, we assemble magazines from every line, deliberately induce a transposition with a variety of ammunition, and then measure insertion force on a closed bolt with a fixture and a force gauge. FWIW, the normal force required to seat a fully loaded PMAG on a closed bolt, depending on firearm and ammunition, is around 14-17lbs. The worst cases of transposition induced by any method other than using a tool to deliberately pry a round up require a closed bolt seating pressure of 28-31lbs, and most are less. You may say, “Whoa, there…that’s double!” However, when you put it in context, it changes a bit. The seating force required to seat an ideal condition USGI loaded with 28, 29, or 30 rounds (We baseline all 3 loading conditions) averages 15-21 lbs, and when we set up transpositions on the USGI by impacts to the magazine, flicking, or in some cases prying as with the worst case deliberate PMAG transpositions, the force varied from 32-47lbs, with some outliers in the 50’s and 60’s. The transposition occurs more readily in most, but not all combinations of PMAG and ammunition, than in other magazines, as it should…because this is a side-effect of our intended geometry. However, in magazines where it occurs more easily, it also CORRECTS more easily, and the force variability is smaller. This should put the numbers in perspective, and yes, we have people who spend days at a time beating, flicking, slapping, dropping and abusing magazines and then putting them into rifles using a force gauge. We wouldn’t be what we are without them.
On the range we do variations of this in actual usage as well as in set ups that are more regimented. The Product Management/Dynamics portion of this testing this week, to exhaustively vet the issue with our crew personally prior to writing this, went something like this:
Loaded magazines, samples from each line, tac reloading: Fire 2 rounds, tactical reload, fire 2 rounds, etc. Between tactical reloads, magazines were handled in a manner that attempted to deliberately induce the transposition.
Load magazines fully. With an already loaded chamber, deliberately set up a transposition. If we couldn’t get it by other means, we’d pry the round up with another loaded round or knife blade until we got a nasty one. Insert and lock the mag, assessing required force. Fire 3 rounds. Remove magazine. Repeat setup and firing until mag empty.
Load mags. Place in plate carrier. Do “burpees”, run sprints, roll on ground, slap mag pouches, chest bump, etc., then tac reload repeatedly to cycle through mags in carrier to see to what seating forces we’d see and see if we could unintentionally get transpositions. Repeat with various numbers of rounds in magazine, below maximum capacity.
Here’s what I can tell you about the PMAG GEN M3. In the thousands of times we’ve deliberately set these transpositions up previously, and in the hundreds of times today, not in ANY case have we been able to cause a malfunction of the firearm. EVERY time, it has fired, ejected, and fed flawlessly from a deliberate attempt to get the nastiest condition possible.
The only time that significant force was required to seat the mag was when the transposition had to be forcibly created with a prying tool in a specific magazine/ammunition combination. In these combinations, unintentional transpositions or transpositions using any method besides prying were simply not possible, and had to be forced—just like you can do with any other magazine. All other seating forces were in line with the previous ranges in lab testing. (Regardless of seating force, once again…100% reliability in function)
In tactical reloading/closed bolt reloading, in actual usage or field/range testing, we have NEVER seen a case where this issue prevented magazine insertion. Increased force required tending toward the higher end of the previously discussed range, occasionally? Yes, but it’s not something you notice more than casually when using a sound push/pull mag swap, unless you are specifically looking for it.
So…is there a safety of use or reliability issue? No, if the magazine is inserted and locked in the rifle the magazine will run normally.
“Cliffs Notes” summary if you got tired halfway through:
The occurrence referenced by the OP is a side effect of design geometry that aids magazine function in adverse conditions by minimizing round contact with other surfaces at and near feeding position.
The only “negative” implications of this “transposition” effect is an occasional increase in closed bolt seating force over “ideal” round stack conditions. This seating force may vary slightly based on ammunition tolerances and magwell size in the host firearm, but in all but willfully deliberate setups requiring the use of a prying tool, falls well within the realm of normal closed bolt insertion pressures for USGI and other competing magazines. I can bore you with standard deviations from the mean, etc., but I’ll spare you the pain.
Although this transposition naturally occurs more rarely in USGI and other magazines, it can be induced in many samples through rough handling without prying, and it can indeed be induced with a prying tool, just like in the forced setups we had to do in many of our PMAG test combinations. These transpositions, especially in a USGI, may appear less significant, but may require much more force to seat when they occur.
In THOUSANDS of deliberate setups, at no time has this occurrence EVER caused a failure to feed or function in all of our body of testing.
With the exception of the previously corrected batch of GEN M3 20rd mags, in no case, in our entire body of testing of PMAGs (or any other mags, for that matter) has a transposition caused an inability to seat the mag unless the transposition was so difficult to induce as to require a prying tool of some sort, and be completely out of the realm of anything we’ve ever seen occur through any other means. This type of transposition is duplicatible in ANY AR-pattern magazine.
What we are going to do:
Although we have not seen any incidences in a vast body of testing where this occurrence creates any functional concern, we will set in place a tighter tolerance level in the area of the Gen M3s that allows this transposition to happen in order to address the perception of a problem. This will resolve any issue of noticeably higher force to insert a magazine in the most extreme cases, and even further reduce the likelihood of unintentional occurrence of transposition that affects insertion in any meaningful way. The vast majority of Gen M3s already fielded are already within this tolerance, and our ongoing testing shows that we do not lose any adverse condition function with magazines on the tighter end of this acceptable window, so there is no reason to not clamp it down a bit.
Anyone with Gen M3 magazines that require more force than they feel is acceptable or normal to insert can contact us for a one for one replacement with Gen M3 magazines that will be tested to be within the tighter end of the tolerance range. Those who are comfortable with the insertion characteristics of their existing magazines can rest assured that there are absolutely zero reliability or functional concerns.
R,
Duane
Yes. I had the same problem with GenM2&3 and moved back to g.i. mags in 2013.
I used Pmags for 18 months and had reliability issues the whole time.
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I've seen this occur a few times in a couple of my Pmags over the years, but to date, this has never caused a malfunction of any kind for me. Having put 15,000 + rounds through my ARs over the last 4 years, almost exclusively with Pmags, and not experiencing a single malfunction of any kind, I haven't ever thought this to be a big issue.
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The sole Gen M3 PMAG I have exhibits this when slapped into the lower on an open bolt. My BCM GI mags do not do this.
With what lower(s) and ammo combination, and under what conditions? Thanks!
Colt lower, mostly PMC X-Tac , also some XM193, 855, and IMI M193 and 855. Approximately 13K of it in those 18 months through the same Colt complete carbine. Never an ammo related issue.
Conditions were usually hot and dusty typical Texas weather. Mostly Tigerswan training with some Redback One, Vickers, and a couple matches a month. Nothing crazy.
Ive experienced this issue with 30 round magpul gen m3 mags. I have colt and bcm lowers only. All of the gen m3 mags that ive tried have exhibited this issue. I haven't actually experienced a malfunction because of this issue but, as the op mentioned, seating the magazine on a closed bolt is quite difficult (my mags always have 28 rnds in them). I have to completely change my seating technique when using gen m3 mags. Instead of slapping in a mag (doesn't matter how hard I slap them, they wont seat) I have to sort of shove it in. I know that probably doesn't make sense, but im struggling to articulate the process. Anyways, the m3 is definitely a different beast from gen m2 and usgi mags. Its worth noting that ive never, not once, experienced this issue with magpul gen m2 mags. Because of this issue, I have gone back to using gen m2 mags almost exclusively. Sure hope this crap isn't starting to show up in the gen m2s!
What you're describing is exactly my experience but I've only ever used gen 2s. I don't really like to slap the magazine but if I do it definitely won't seat and shoving it in requires a little bit of a wiggle to get seated. It's never caused an issue beyond this. The condition happens anytime I leave a magazine with the rounds down and it gets shaken a bit such as riding in my bag in my car.
Has it ever prevented you from seating a loaded mag on a closed bolt - i.e., a tactical reload?
Not that I can remember, but i'm going to try a couple this weekend and see if I have issues. I do have a bunch of USGI mags too, so if there are issues I can switch over to those.
Jwknutson17
03-27-15, 10:48
I have also incurred these same issues as stated above. Only with Gen2's. I have probably 100 gen 2 windowed and non windowed pmags and this only happens with about 4 mags that I can say for sure. These mags usually remained constantly loaded with 28 rounds and are left in the rifle in the safe. When removing them and re inserting, I would say 1 out of 10 times it does not seat with ease. I can however seat the mag fully without changing my hand position on the mag. It does take more then normal force to seat, but other then that, I have never encountered anything out of the norm performance wise. This would not make me change out my Pmags by any means. I may send in the 4 mags for replacement. 2 are black, 1 is OD, one is FDE. All windowed.
I experience this on a handful of my Gen2/3 PMAGs as well. Not sure I should be included in the sample size though considering my state's requirement for neutered (15 rds max) mags.
This happens with my Lancer AWM 20 rounders if they are slapped from the bottom, or sometimes of removed from the weapon after a tactical reload, still with 30 rounds loaded.
XD40Colorado
03-28-15, 15:20
Just tried all 14 of my M2 Pmags...MUCH harder to seat on a closed bolt than some Colt and C-products USGI stuff I had lying around.
Also noticed that the Pmags are more resistant to dropping free than are the USGIs....
XD40Colorado
04-05-15, 20:09
Bump for interest and replies
Bump for interest and replies
Magpul staff roam around M4C. They may chime in at some point. As for me, USGI mags it is.
KentuckyWindage
04-06-15, 04:30
I have had this second round condition also in my gen 2 and 3 mags. I currently have 3 gen 3 windowed mags that are giving me fits. I need to contact magpul for replacements because I do not trust the mags what so ever.
I only ever had 6 30 round M2s but they all did this. My friends PMAG 40 does it, but his M3 30s do not. My EMAGs do not.
For me it's too much of a gamble with PMAGs so I stick to NHMTG.
what in the world?! This is a bit disconcerting. With all of the talk of pmag = the perfect mag, I always assumed that I just had a quirky situation on my hands. To hear that multiple other individuals are experiencing this is a bit of a shocker. Like I said in my previous post, Ive used countless windowless pmag gen M2's and ive NEVER (Knock on wood) experienced this issue with the M2's. The Gen M3's, in my experience, have been consistently difficult to seat on a closed bolt in colt and bcm guns. I, too, am really interested to hear what magpul has to say?
Never had a problem with P Mags.
I am slowly transitioning to NHMTG/COLT/BCM D&H mags, with NHMTG being the preferred.
XD40Colorado
04-06-15, 18:29
Never had a problem with P Mags.
Have you tried the specific maneuver we're talking about, i.e., trying to seat a fully-loaded 30 round Pmag on a closed bolt, to simulate a tactical reload?:confused::confused:
I ditched all my Pmags (thank you Equip Exchange lol), and have switched over to mostly C-products stainless with anti-tilt black followers. Flawless. Ran a carbine with them, no issues at all.
Makes me wonder if the Army and Marines know something we don't regarding the Pmag ban.
Quite a thread.
I pointed this out about Pmags about three years ago back when the Rob_S had the 'Move back to G.I. mags' thread going.
I got flamed all over the internet for not adoring Pmags. :ph34r:
modelbuilder56
04-06-15, 22:49
I thought I had a bad batch of gen 2's and gen 3's with the movement of the 2d round, I'am going to stop buying them and concentrate on NHMTG mags.
What I also find amusing are the other people chiming in all of a sudden, so I have to wonder why they didn't report it to Magpul or why they didn't post it here themselves.
For the record, I have a large variety of magazines, from USGI-Lancer- Pmags and I am not married to any of them. I use what works and discard what doesn't, regardless of the brand.
Quite a thread.
I pointed this out about Pmags about three years ago back when the Rob_S had the 'Move back to G.I. mags' thread going.
I got flamed all over the internet for not adoring Pmags. :ph34r:
sevenhelmet
04-07-15, 07:34
At a minimum, this is making me seriously consider divesting my magazine brands- right now I have no problems, but I only have PMAG M2 and M3s.
What I also find amusing are the other people chiming in all of a sudden, so I have to wonder why they didn't report it to Magpul or why they didn't post it here themselves.
For the record, I have a large variety of magazines, from USGI-Lancer- Pmags and I am not married to any of them. I use what works and discard what doesn't, regardless of the brand.
Agreed. Variety is the spice of life. Mags are disposable. Don't marry them.
Have you tried the specific maneuver we're talking about, i.e., trying to seat a fully-loaded 30 round Pmag on a closed bolt, to simulate a tactical reload?:confused::confused:
I ditched all my Pmags (thank you Equip Exchange lol), and have switched over to mostly C-products stainless with anti-tilt black followers. Flawless. Ran a carbine with them, no issues at all.
Makes me wonder if the Army and Marines know something we don't regarding the Pmag ban.
I do it all the time, never had a problem. I shoot multi gun and have been shooting AR's for over 30 years.
KentuckyWindage
04-07-15, 08:16
What I also find amusing are the other people chiming in all of a sudden, so I have to wonder why they didn't report it to Magpul or why they didn't post it here themselves.
For the record, I have a large variety of magazines, from USGI-Lancer- Pmags and I am not married to any of them. I use what works and discard what doesn't, regardless of the brand.
I have had a few gen 2 replaced by magpul last year. My current batch of bad gen 3 I emailed magpul over the week end but haven't received a response yet.
XD40Colorado
04-07-15, 09:31
What I also find amusing are the other people chiming in all of a sudden, so I have to wonder why they didn't report it to Magpul or why they didn't post it here themselves.
For the record, I have a large variety of magazines, from USGI-Lancer- Pmags and I am not married to any of them. I use what works and discard what doesn't, regardless of the brand.
That's funny, I don't recall anyone asking for what you find amusing? I for one, don't care, but I don't like to be obliquely insulted. If you have something to say, say it. I'm not going to be MagPul fanboy because Chris Costa uses it.
As for not realizing it was an issue until others mentioned it, I recently just bought my Pmags about 6 months ago, and hadn't really used them until lately. Had trouble doing tactical reloads as part of some carbine lessons I am taking. That said, I just realized it was an issue within the last few weeks.
In case you gentlemen missed it.
In post #12 of this thread is a question I asked Magpul last year and their answer about this condition.
The last two paragraphs states what to do if you do not want to read the long reply.
Just saying.
Clarence
shutup&shoot
04-07-15, 10:48
All I own are Pmags. They are the only ones I've never had a problem with.
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All I own are Pmags. They are the only ones I've never had a problem with.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's cool and I'm not trying to invalidate your choice, but what other mags have you used and what kind of problems?
shutup&shoot
04-07-15, 13:06
That's cool and I'm not trying to invalidate your choice, but what other mags have you used and what kind of problems?
Oh man, D&H, some mags I got from Bravo Co (sorry don't remember exactly what they were), Tangodown, some unknown a friend had from his military time. The only problem would be jamming as it got closer to the last few rounds. I had this with all the above mags. Now to be honest it wasn't every time, but it did happen at least once in all the above mentioned. These were all fired from my personal BCM.
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To be crystal clear: I've not had any Malfs with PMAGs (all I've ever used for personal use...thousands of rounds), just the issue with a Loaded Mag being seated while Bolt is in Battery. *Knock on Wood*
shutup&shoot
04-07-15, 13:29
I must also add that some of these mags were old and of unknown round count. To be fair I believe the springs were just flat wore out. My Pmags are all less than two years old.
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I must also add that some of these mags were old and of unknown round count. To be fair I believe the springs were just flat wore out. My Pmags are all less than two years old.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yup. I've never used D&H mags, but I've used lots of Centers, lots of Okay/NHMTG/Colts. They all run fine and hold up quite well for me.
It seems like Pmags always get compared to 'what's left on the last day of the gunshow surplus mags' that are usually made up of mis-matched parts that were wore out decades ago.
Compare 'em to new Centers, Okays, or Brownells and the performance gap closes quite a bit. Nothing wrong with Pmags if they work for you though.
This round cross up issue occurs for me with all my mags. Pmag, USGI,.... all of them.
Nice. It's also irrelevant, and if I was a Chris Costa/Magpul fanboy (who by the way is no longer with Magpul) then I also wouldn't have USGI, Lancer, Surefire and other magazines.
Again, if it's been a few weeks, then why haven't you had contacted Magpul if it's such a concern?
I also want to be clear, that this wasn't directed towards you- and you obviously took this post personal. It's directed to everyone that had issues. You can't expect a resolution from them, if you don't tell them.
That's funny, I don't recall anyone asking for what you find amusing? I for one, don't care, but I don't like to be obliquely insulted. If you have something to say, say it. I'm not going to be MagPul fanboy because Chris Costa uses it.
As for not realizing it was an issue until others mentioned it, I recently just bought my Pmags about 6 months ago, and hadn't really used them until lately. Had trouble doing tactical reloads as part of some carbine lessons I am taking. That said, I just realized it was an issue within the last few weeks.
I personally never brought it up, nor contacted Magpul because to me the "issue" is kind of a nonissue. I find that when the second round is out of position and I slap the magazine in it won't seat, but if I push it in it does. I don't really like to slap my magazines in anyway, since the requires me moving my hand off the magazine before it's actually seated. Since my department switched to them I haven't seen a magazine related malfunction on the range. I'll take having to push for a totally reliable magazine any day.
I first looked into this because I found it happened with a 20 round Pmag I got just to try out.
Then I read it happens with other mags too.
So I tested several types of mags for the "slap it in hard" issue. I too, found that they will all do it. Pmags gen 2 and 3 20's and 30's, NHMTG and Brownell 20's and 30's. Tavor and AR. The solution for me was simply to NOT use excessive force when seating magazines. Push firmly, maybe a light to medium strength tap, tug, and done.
It's one of those things that isn't really a problem, but better to learn about it while reading, shooting, or training than in an emergency.
Call it an idiosyncrasy of AR-style magazines. (And now I'm an AR-apologist just like the kind I hated when I was all about AK's years ago....:p )
Very interesting. I have enough mags of various types to perform a decent, somewhat statistically sig., backyard comparison. Working the dirt will have to wait a little this wknd. Not near last freeze date anyway.
I use what works and discard what doesn't, regardless of the brand.
Pretty much what happened to me. Sold the mags to a friend who was well informed of the issue and picked up some USGI mags.
If anyone just can't stand their pmags, I'll take them off your hands.
XD40Colorado
04-24-15, 19:58
I own 4 genn m3. No problem seating on a closed bolt.
ncshooter18
04-24-15, 21:32
I traded my M3s for Center Ind tan followrs mags because of this issue.
I traded my M3s for Center Ind tan followrs mags because of this issue.
I've had very good luck with Centers. I used to not like 'em because I had a batch that were a little on the large side and wouldn't drop free, but I have a bunch now that are every bit as good as my NHMTGs...
In case you gentlemen missed it.
In post #12 of this thread is a question I asked Magpul last year and their answer about this condition.
The last two paragraphs states what to do if you do not want to read the long reply.
Just saying.
Clarence
Here it is again for those who do not want to click back- cliff notes at the bottom. Or for those asking why we have not posted on this topic (as this statement was in the first page we thought it would be redundant to post it again, but I guess not)
*****
I haven’t jumped in here ‘til now because we do in fact take every customer issue very seriously, and we wanted to do some additional testing of past and current product in order to have the most complete and absolute information. Although we looked at this exact occurrence in the PMAG30 in initial pre-release testing and again back when we looked at the PMAG20, we cleaned off the calendar and got busy at the range.
We’ve spent the last few days re-validating lab and range testing regarding the GEN M3 magazine and the behavior of the top two rounds, which we call “transposition”, just to make sure that nothing had changed, and that current results matched previous efforts. All molds, variants, and sizes have been looked at.
Since this thread got me out of the office and on the range, which I generally appreciate, I’ll give you the long version, so everyone that wants to wade through it will have the complete picture. Bear with me, it’s all relevant.
If you get bored with my rambling at any point, you can skip to the “Cliffs Notes” summary at the end.
The GEN M3 project began when we had accumulated significant enough advances in certain technologies to make a meaningful difference in some performance aspects, and to achieve universal fitment with Colt/M16/M4 and compatible platforms as well as platforms with the HK416/SA80 magwell. Although we already had a great track record in combat use and in many of these categories with the GENM2 or MREV PMAG, we never stop improvement efforts. Some of the aspects that we sought and achieved improvement on were drop-free performance in min-spec magwells, improved stiffness, strength, and durability, improved performance in cold weather to -60 deg F, improved performance in dust and grit, and overall feeding reliability.
These efforts resulted in a magazine that has been successful in achieving our goals, and that we are confident is the most reliable and durable magazine available. We’ve got over a quarter of a million rounds downrange at this point, it’s been through field trials with military units, it’s in law enforcement service, it’s been downrange, it is used by many of the most successful competitive shooters and trainers in the world, and we continually test for QC.
OK…this is where we tie this in to the issue at hand. I’ll talk about what you are seeing, and then I’ll tell you what our test results show. This requires us to share more about the PMAG than we’d like, but here goes…
Dust and grit are enemies of firearms and magazines in general. In current conflicts, as much or more so, than in any previous operational environment, these factors can be deadly if your gear can’t take it. The GEN M2 PMAG works very well in dust/grit tests, but we wanted to improve this with the Gen M3. Friction or drag on the stack/follower/individual rounds on the way to the chamber is what makes grit stop guns, and the PMAG combats this in numerous ways. Relevant to the current topic of discussion is the fact that we minimize the contact that the round has with other surfaces as much as possible. Less surface contact equals less drag. Feeding into the chamber is as important as when riding up the stack in the mag body. To minimize drag/friction, we minimize contact with mag/other cartridge surfaces while still completely and resiliently controlling feed geometry. To do this, you have to flirt with instability to some extent, and get the mix just right. Too much contact equals great control without optimized drag. Too little contact equals minimal drag and a mag that won’t feed worth a darn because presentation isn’t controlled. It’s a fine line. We’re always looking for ways to improve, but this is the best way we’ve found to do it, and it works very, very well.
This transposition is rare in other magazines, but can occur in some of the samples we’ve tested, probably due to tolerance variation more than design intent due to the inconsistency of its occurrence. It may occur with a flick, a smack, or extended carry in a pouch depending on the sample, but is generally less likely than with a PMAG.
All PMAGs play this balancing act very well, and especially in the GEN M3, this manifests itself in what may appear to be the rounds at the top of the stack having some “freedom”. With various manipulations of a loaded mag, you may indeed be able to induce this partial “transposition” of the top two rounds to a lesser or greater extent, depending a great deal on ammunition type/shoulder size. Smaller diameter ammunition shoulders, even a few thousandths, may allow this to occur more readily than larger diameter, but still in-spec ammunition. On a few of the PMAG20 GEN M3 magazines, there was enough of a tolerance stacking issue where you could indeed, with the right combination of gun, ammo, and mag, induce a failure that would not allow seating, but we have not seen that since the fix for those affected mags, or in any other magazines across the entire line, without deliberately setting up a failure by prying up the round with a tool, to the same extent that you can do that in any other magazine, and believe me, we’ve tested a lot of combinations. The PMAG20 was long ago corrected, and we monitor this in QC with all mags.
As long as loaded rounds do not to creep forward enough to catch the front edge of the mag when you try to insert it (possible with any magazine…try it) you should have no problem inserting and locking the magazine on a closed bolt, regardless of the position of the rounds with respect to this transposition occurrence. The required force may increase a bit, but we’ll get to how much in a minute--certainly nothing unreasonable. The first time the bolt starts rearward, the stack self-corrects, if it hasn’t already self-corrected on insertion. If I had a nickel for every time we’ve tested this on the GEN M3 mags to prove it, I’d be typing this from a hammock in Fiji.
To illustrate what I’m talking about, I’ll cover some of our testing.
In the lab, we assemble magazines from every line, deliberately induce a transposition with a variety of ammunition, and then measure insertion force on a closed bolt with a fixture and a force gauge. FWIW, the normal force required to seat a fully loaded PMAG on a closed bolt, depending on firearm and ammunition, is around 14-17lbs. The worst cases of transposition induced by any method other than using a tool to deliberately pry a round up require a closed bolt seating pressure of 28-31lbs, and most are less. You may say, “Whoa, there…that’s double!” However, when you put it in context, it changes a bit. The seating force required to seat an ideal condition USGI loaded with 28, 29, or 30 rounds (We baseline all 3 loading conditions) averages 15-21 lbs, and when we set up transpositions on the USGI by impacts to the magazine, flicking, or in some cases prying as with the worst case deliberate PMAG transpositions, the force varied from 32-47lbs, with some outliers in the 50’s and 60’s. The transposition occurs more readily in most, but not all combinations of PMAG and ammunition, than in other magazines, as it should…because this is a side-effect of our intended geometry. However, in magazines where it occurs more easily, it also CORRECTS more easily, and the force variability is smaller. This should put the numbers in perspective, and yes, we have people who spend days at a time beating, flicking, slapping, dropping and abusing magazines and then putting them into rifles using a force gauge. We wouldn’t be what we are without them.
On the range we do variations of this in actual usage as well as in set ups that are more regimented. The Product Management/Dynamics portion of this testing this week, to exhaustively vet the issue with our crew personally prior to writing this, went something like this:
Loaded magazines, samples from each line, tac reloading: Fire 2 rounds, tactical reload, fire 2 rounds, etc. Between tactical reloads, magazines were handled in a manner that attempted to deliberately induce the transposition.
Load magazines fully. With an already loaded chamber, deliberately set up a transposition. If we couldn’t get it by other means, we’d pry the round up with another loaded round or knife blade until we got a nasty one. Insert and lock the mag, assessing required force. Fire 3 rounds. Remove magazine. Repeat setup and firing until mag empty.
Load mags. Place in plate carrier. Do “burpees”, run sprints, roll on ground, slap mag pouches, chest bump, etc., then tac reload repeatedly to cycle through mags in carrier to see to what seating forces we’d see and see if we could unintentionally get transpositions. Repeat with various numbers of rounds in magazine, below maximum capacity.
Here’s what I can tell you about the PMAG GEN M3. In the thousands of times we’ve deliberately set these transpositions up previously, and in the hundreds of times today, not in ANY case have we been able to cause a malfunction of the firearm. EVERY time, it has fired, ejected, and fed flawlessly from a deliberate attempt to get the nastiest condition possible.
The only time that significant force was required to seat the mag was when the transposition had to be forcibly created with a prying tool in a specific magazine/ammunition combination. In these combinations, unintentional transpositions or transpositions using any method besides prying were simply not possible, and had to be forced—just like you can do with any other magazine. All other seating forces were in line with the previous ranges in lab testing. (Regardless of seating force, once again…100% reliability in function)
In tactical reloading/closed bolt reloading, in actual usage or field/range testing, we have NEVER seen a case where this issue prevented magazine insertion. Increased force required tending toward the higher end of the previously discussed range, occasionally? Yes, but it’s not something you notice more than casually when using a sound push/pull mag swap, unless you are specifically looking for it.
So…is there a safety of use or reliability issue? No, if the magazine is inserted and locked in the rifle the magazine will run normally.
“Cliffs Notes” summary if you got tired halfway through:
The occurrence referenced by the OP is a side effect of design geometry that aids magazine function in adverse conditions by minimizing round contact with other surfaces at and near feeding position.
The only “negative” implications of this “transposition” effect is an occasional increase in closed bolt seating force over “ideal” round stack conditions. This seating force may vary slightly based on ammunition tolerances and magwell size in the host firearm, but in all but willfully deliberate setups requiring the use of a prying tool, falls well within the realm of normal closed bolt insertion pressures for USGI and other competing magazines. I can bore you with standard deviations from the mean, etc., but I’ll spare you the pain.
Although this transposition naturally occurs more rarely in USGI and other magazines, it can be induced in many samples through rough handling without prying, and it can indeed be induced with a prying tool, just like in the forced setups we had to do in many of our PMAG test combinations. These transpositions, especially in a USGI, may appear less significant, but may require much more force to seat when they occur.
In THOUSANDS of deliberate setups, at no time has this occurrence EVER caused a failure to feed or function in all of our body of testing.
With the exception of the previously corrected batch of GEN M3 20rd mags, in no case, in our entire body of testing of PMAGs (or any other mags, for that matter) has a transposition caused an inability to seat the mag unless the transposition was so difficult to induce as to require a prying tool of some sort, and be completely out of the realm of anything we’ve ever seen occur through any other means. This type of transposition is duplicatible in ANY AR-pattern magazine.
What we are going to do:
Although we have not seen any incidences in a vast body of testing where this occurrence creates any functional concern, we will set in place a tighter tolerance level in the area of the Gen M3s that allows this transposition to happen in order to address the perception of a problem. This will resolve any issue of noticeably higher force to insert a magazine in the most extreme cases, and even further reduce the likelihood of unintentional occurrence of transposition that affects insertion in any meaningful way. The vast majority of Gen M3s already fielded are already within this tolerance, and our ongoing testing shows that we do not lose any adverse condition function with magazines on the tighter end of this acceptable window, so there is no reason to not clamp it down a bit.
Anyone with Gen M3 magazines that require more force than they feel is acceptable or normal to insert can contact us for a one for one replacement with Gen M3 magazines that will be tested to be within the tighter end of the tolerance range. Those who are comfortable with the insertion characteristics of their existing magazines can rest assured that there are absolutely zero reliability or functional concerns.
R,
Duane
Have you tried the specific maneuver we're talking about, i.e., trying to seat a fully-loaded 30 round Pmag on a closed bolt, to simulate a tactical reload?:confused::confused:
I ditched all my Pmags (thank you Equip Exchange lol), and have switched over to mostly C-products stainless with anti-tilt black followers. Flawless. Ran a carbine with them, no issues at all.
Makes me wonder if the Army and Marines know something we don't regarding the Pmag ban.
1. The Army did not ban PMags. They issued a memorandum stating that only magazines on the "approved" list be used, then only put the USGI magazine on the list (tan and green follower versions). After an initial uproar by those deployed, the Army issued a clarification less than a week later saying the memorandum was "optional".
2. With the USMC, the introduction of the IAR (with it's extended 416 magazine well) did not allow the original PMag to fully seat. This caused an incompatibility with the existing PMags (all pre M3) already fielded by USMC units. The M3 has since solved this issue as well as HK who have move to a conventional mag well design with the latest 416 varient.
BluegrassGunGuy
04-25-15, 04:59
I can't say that the problem that I have experienced is exactly what your describing but, I have had problems seating 30rd pmags when fully loaded. I just load all my mags even mil spec mags to 28 rounds and have not had any problems since. Personally I don't think 2 more rounds will matter that much but if it makes seating my mags easier it's worth it to me.
Experienced this twice with a M2 mag but never with M3..
Have you tried the specific maneuver we're talking about, i.e., trying to seat a fully-loaded 30 round Pmag on a closed bolt, to simulate a tactical reload?:confused::confused:
I ditched all my Pmags (thank you Equip Exchange lol), and have switched over to mostly C-products stainless with anti-tilt black followers. Flawless. Ran a carbine with them, no issues at all.
Makes me wonder if the Army and Marines know something we don't regarding the Pmag ban.
1. The Army did not ban PMags. They issued a memorandum stating that only magazines on the "approved" list be used, then only put the USGI magazine on the list (tan and green follower versions). After an initial uproar by those deployed, the Army issued a clarification less than a week later saying the memorandum was "optional".
2. With the USMC, the introduction of the IAR (with it's extended 416 magazine well) did not allow the original PMag to fully seat. This caused an incompatibility with the existing PMags (all pre M3) already fielded by USMC units. The M3 has since solved this issue as well as HK who have move to a conventional mag well design with the latest 416 version.
Yup. I've never used D&H mags, but I've used lots of Centers, lots of Okay/NHMTG/Colts. They all run fine and hold up quite well for me.
It seems like Pmags always get compared to 'what's left on the last day of the gunshow surplus mags' that are usually made up of mis-matched parts that were wore out decades ago.
Compare 'em to new Centers, Okays, or Brownells and the performance gap closes quite a bit. Nothing wrong with Pmags if they work for you though.
Here are some simple tests with brand new mil issue USGI contract mags vs PMag M3s, complete with high speed video and factory HK 416 full auto tests. (Link (https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLLtq9scclwKVYVSGUsrOsprdHo_TKJt7))
http://youtu.be/jQxYXTYohPI
Great video. Thanks for sharing.
XD40Colorado
04-25-15, 07:18
Well, I have to say that any company that takes This much time to test their mags and reply extensively in this forum has earned my confidence. I bought another two gen m3 last night and neither had any issues.
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