View Full Version : auto BCG's on semi auto's
I've read here and there that using an auto BC has some benefit due to the additional mass and it seems that folks recommend the BCM BCG as the bolt is MPI'ed, the carrier and key is chromed where it needs to be, etc.
I have a shopping cart filled with some goodies from Bravo Co. and among them is the BCM BCG, however reading though the Bushmaster catalog (I was bored) I came across the following;
"The position of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) is that if your AR15 type rifle contains even one M16 component, it is a Machine Gun."
Please advise.
Thanks,
First of all, Hi Folks! First post over at this forum and I hope I can bring some insight and laughs here as well. This topic is the start of many long discussions on many websites. While reading and understanding what you are saying, the ATF also acknowledges that many US companies use full auto carriers in their new rifles and doesn't have a problem with it. If they did, Bushmaster and LMT to name a few would be in deep #@$%. It only becomes a problem with the ATF when the gun malfunctions and goes full auto with selected FA parts and now you are in possession of serious contraband. I have a full auto bolt carrier (enhanced) in my LMT namely because it's a SBR (14.5"). Does the added mass of a FA bolt carrier make a difference, couldn't tell you but it makes me feel better.
i purchased a lmt back up bcg in semi, they were out of the full auto. i'm by far an expert but the only thing i've noticed is with the full auto bcg the casings are slung behind me, with semi they go 90 deg. full auto is colt btw and i dont recall which extractor set ups they have. pretty sure the lmt is the black plug with the o ring, not sure about the colt.
"The position of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) is that if your AR15 type rifle contains even one M16 component, it is a Machine Gun."
Please advise.
The short answer is that no, having a full-auto carrier does not make your semi-auto AR15 a machine gun, nor does it violate any laws.
With that said, I'd recommend going with a full-auto carrier for the reasons you previously mentioned. Whether or not you want to go the "enhanced" route is up to you. Most say that it makes no difference, but I can't say from personal experience.
OldNavyGuy
07-09-08, 23:16
The short answer is that no, having a full-auto carrier does not make your semi-auto AR15 a machine gun, nor does it violate any laws.
.
hold on there friend, there are SOME STATES that still have that law on the books, so please do not make such a broad statement, someone in a "ban" state may take that as the correct answer, thus violating the law unknowingly !
I was unaware that it was on the books anywhere. TOS treats it as an urban myth. Not that I don't believe you, but do you have any links? It'd be interesting to read.
If it is indeed "illegal" in some states it surprises me that manufacturers would knowingly offer it without a disclaimer. There are several manufacturers that use the full-auto carrier exclusively.
Exactly which laws are you referring to? IIRC, this has been clarified before and there was a letter from BATFE whcih stated that it is not expressly prohibited as long as the weapon does not fire more than 1 shot every time the trigger is pulled.
hold on there friend, there are SOME STATES that still have that law on the books, so please do not make such a broad statement, someone in a "ban" state may take that as the correct answer, thus violating the law unknowingly !
Detective_D
07-10-08, 07:25
...and I have read on here several times that the main thing you cant have is a fire control group that is full auto.
The bolt and carrier group is not part of that fire control group.
E-mail me for a copy of the official memo regarding the ATFs position on the legality of Full Auto BCGs. Basically it states that as long as a part does not cause a weapon to fire full auto it is legal even if the part is intended for a machinegun.
This silly arguement is beneath this site, and a perfect topic for TOS. :mad:
This silly arguement is beneath this site, and a perfect topic for TOS. :mad:
I agree with you to a point, but with NFA violations resulting in federal prison time I can understand if folks are concerned about putting a part labeled "full auto BCG" into their weapons. It should be called mil-spec BCG or something innocuous like that.
Stephen
I agree with you to a point, but with NFA violations resulting in federal prison time I can understand if folks are concerned about putting a part labeled "full auto BCG" into their weapons. It should be called mil-spec BCG or something innocuous like that.
Stephen
I agree completely. But there's folks that will fight to the death to convince someone that a standard carrier is a bad idea.
Shit! That idiot in Wisconcin had a complete A2 burst kit in his gun, and he almost walked.... until they finally got it to fire a few rounds with a single pull.
thespyhunter
07-10-08, 08:35
This silly arguement is beneath this site, and a perfect topic for TOS. :mad:
What the hell is TOS? :confused:
Verbal Kint
07-10-08, 08:41
I assume it's "That Other Site".
I assume it's "That Other Site".
Yeah! Last I was there.... there was a 10 page shitstorm on this arguement.
Spurholder
07-10-08, 08:49
I've got a copy of the BATFE letter to Colt Defense from 2005. I think it's the same letter that Stephen referenced. If not, and if you'd like a copy, please PM me.
thespyhunter
07-10-08, 09:01
I assume it's "That Other Site".
Ahhhh....... got it ! :D
Good Lord this comes up a lot! Below is the attached letter from the ATF. While they do not like you to do it, their is no law against it.
The simple fact is that if it was illegal for you to own an M16 BCG do you REALLY THINK that companies like Colt, LMT, etc would ship their weapons with M16 BCG's?????????????????
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M16%20BCG%20ATF%20Letter.jpg
eading though the Bushmaster catalog (I was bored) I came across the following;"The position of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) is that if your AR15 type rifle contains even one M16 component, it is a Machine Gun."
Echo the others. The only thing to add here is that you should take legal and technical information disseminated by Bushmaster with a spoon of salt.
The advisory in the manual is but one example of why.
Well I certainly apologize for asking, didn't want to go TOS because it's TOS. :(
Well I'm glad you asked, because I was going to soon enough.
I just don't get it, why some folks get all bent out of shape when this topic comes up, or any others that might have come up many times before. Maybe you know better, and you've been around, fine. But, there are countless newbies and the uninformed out there that want to know the bottom line/truth. It's important, because they don't want to do something that might land them in hot water with the feds. So, they ask the question(s). What is the big deal? I thank those who keep it professional, and answer professionally, instead of huffing and puffing, and speak ill of other boards.
I just don't get it, why some folks get all bent out of shape when this topic comes up, or any others that might have come up many times before. Maybe you know better, and you've been around, fine. But, there are countless newbies and the uninformed out there that want to know the bottom line/truth. It's important, because they don't want to do something that might land them in hot water with the feds. So, they ask the question(s). What is the big deal? I thank those who keep it professional, and answer professionally, instead of huffing and puffing, and speak ill of other boards.
I'm a newbie, I agree. I didn't know shit 2 weeks ago, I am a LOT better informed and am confident I will get a good ar now. I researched what I could on older posts and if you follow the conversations on some it just turns into a pissing match and is usually so far from the point of the original post it's unbelievable. Save that crap for your Myspace pages and HELP those you can.
If you cannot help, at least do no harm.- Dalai Lama
If you don't have anything nice to say then shut your piehole!- My Mama
I'm a newbie, I agree. I didn't know shit 2 weeks ago, I am a LOT better informed and am confident I will get a good ar now. I researched what I could on older posts and if you follow the conversations on some it just turns into a pissing match and is usually so far from the point of the original post it's unbelievable. Save that crap for your Myspace pages and HELP those you can.
If you cannot help, at least do no harm.- Dalai Lama
If you don't have anything nice to say then shut your piehole!- My Mama
As a noob myself, I find this site to be pretty well mannered. If I might suggest, if you want to learn as much as you can, try reading the knowledge-based threads linked below.
I can imagine that members get tired of the same basic questions over and over, especially since they went to a lot of trouble to create an encylopedia of knowlege for us. The site also has a great search function. There are very few things we could ask that haven't been asked before, and maybe even asked every week. :D
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7009
Be sure to check out the very first item on this page
Detective_D
07-11-08, 07:21
You are right Austin...I believe that is what the problem is most of the time. Some people will post threads to ask questions that have been covered several times and some of the guys that have been on here a while get understandibly upset about it.
Just like you, I have learned a huge amount of information by searching and reading. Almost every question that I have come up with, I have found covered at least three or four times on here when I do the search.
To the new guys, I am a fairly new here too. Dont get sour on this site because of one post. ;) Just keep searching and if you dont find it, just ask. There is a wealth of info on here from guys that really know their stuff.
This site has several sections of "knowledge base threads" There is a thread on this subject in the technical section.
AR General Discussion Knowledge base threads (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7355)
AR Technical Discussion FAQ/Knowledge Base Threads (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7009)
I just don't get it, why some folks get all bent out of shape when this topic comes up, or any others that might have come up many times before. Maybe you know better, and you've been around, fine. But, there are countless newbies and the uninformed out there that want to know the bottom line/truth. It's important, because they don't want to do something that might land them in hot water with the feds. So, they ask the question(s). What is the big deal? I thank those who keep it professional, and answer professionally, instead of huffing and puffing, and speak ill of other boards.
To echo Rob's post, folks get "bent out of shape" because 99% of the time the information is already available through the use of the search feature. I got 19 pages of results with a search on "full auto bcg."
Stephen
OldNavyGuy
07-11-08, 08:32
with 116 posts i could be considered a "newbie".., but ! i have been around the AR-15 for 40 years, and i believe i am fairly knowledgeable of the gun and SOME of the stupid federal and state laws laws concerning my favorite rifle/carbine, so please do not ask me to supply you with info, as it may be not exactly 100% right on, if you have the intelligence to ask me for a link or URL you also have the intelligence to type in your question at Yahoo or Google search, something i do all the time when i question someones "FACT"
so, do not question me.., do your own research, it's fun and the things you can learn on the side are sometimes surprising..., knowledge is power !! :D
As a noob myself, I find this site to be pretty well mannered. If I might suggest, if you want to learn as much as you can, try reading the knowledge-based threads linked below.
I can imagine that members get tired of the same basic questions over and over, especially since they went to a lot of trouble to create an encylopedia of knowlege for us. The site also has a great search function.
If you just type in auto BCG the site won't even search for you. If a term is too common it can't handle it. I understand that BCG has probably been used to death on this site, but some newbie's wouldn't know that. If you go to the knowlege based threads you can learn alot. But don't read too far down (the chart is a good example) it turns into a pissing match and finding out who makes the better whatever get's lost. Don't get me wrong, I love this site and greatly appreciate it's existence and all the help from it's members. I can understand why people with the knowledge would get tired of sounding like a broken record. But nothing is perfect.
I just don't get it, why some folks get all bent out of shape when this topic comes up, or any others that might have come up many times before. Maybe you know better, and you've been around, fine. But, there are countless newbies and the uninformed out there that want to know the bottom line/truth. It's important, because they don't want to do something that might land them in hot water with the feds. So, they ask the question(s). What is the big deal? I thank those who keep it professional, and answer professionally, instead of huffing and puffing, and speak ill of other boards.
What the NEWB's should really do is exercise the search function instead of asking the same question over and over (as just about every question they have ever thought of has been covered to death). This is why people get frustrated (not at the question, but by the lack of effort of the person to do their own digging).
C4
To echo Rob's post, folks get "bent out of shape" because 99% of the time the information is already available through the use of the search feature. I got 19 pages of results with a search on "full auto bcg."
Stephen
Preach it brother! :D
C4
If you just type in auto BCG the site won't even search for you.
Actually, I just tested what you said and typed "auto BCG" in search and got 500 responses, granted, all of which may not have been what you were looking for.
In my post, which you quoted, the search function was a secondary recommendation. My primary recommendation was the knowledge-based threads, which I linked for you. The very first item on the page is about FA BCGs.
When I have a question I try the KBTs first to see if that topic is already there, It is a great tool and a lot of work went into it. I am really appreciative of them. The KBTs that Rob and I linked will answer many of not most of a noob's questions. At least they did for me, and still do. I thank all that contributed to them.
I just typed it again under All open forums and got the same result. Too many matches. Now if I start picking individual forums I'm sure I can narrow it down. What you guys think is common sense may not be to us newbie's. Yes we should start with the knowledge based threads but they aren't always the easiest to find, especially if you are computer illiterate like myself. I did all the research I could before I started asking stupid redundant questions. but I still asked and usually another member would direct me to the thread I needed. That's what I like about this site is that usually people are eager to help and get the right info out there.
I just typed it again under All open forums and got the same result. Too many matches. Now if I start picking individual forums I'm sure I can narrow it down. What you guys think is common sense may not be to us newbie's. Yes we should start with the knowledge based threads but they aren't always the easiest to find, especially if you are computer illiterate like myself. I did all the research I could before I started asking stupid redundant questions. but I still asked and usually another member would direct me to the thread I needed. That's what I like about this site is that usually people are eager to help and get the right info out there.
Generally speaking, if the question is AR related, just stick to searching those forums (would try the technical forum first).
We are eager to help, but just get tired of the same questions over and over. Don't take it personally.
C4
This site has several sections of "knowledge base threads" There is a thread on this subject in the technical section.
AR Technical Discussion FAQ/Knowledge Base Threads (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7009)
Ya know I must have gone to that forum dozens of times in the last 2 weeks and never saw this thread. DOH! Gives you an idea of what your dealing with. I don't take it personally, I'm in sales and deal with redundance all day long, it can be a real pisser sometimes.
PRGGodfather
07-11-08, 15:09
Here is a golden question a person new to any forum could consider (which would probably get answered with little annoyance):
I am new, so where would be a good place for me to start researching on this site?
or
Where are the FAQ's?
Based on the high level of professionalism of this site compared to other sites, someone would likely provide the link and politely welcome the new person, too.
It is important to note, while everyone has a right to ask a question -- NO ONE IS OBLIGATED TO ANSWER IT. If one asks a question that has been asked by every new person before, a somewhat annoyed response should be expected. This is human nature, just as some tolerance for reasonable growing pains should occur.
Still, while new people should be welcomed and encouraged, we should ALWAYS REMEMBER this is a privately-owned membership site, so without speaking for anyone else -- the RIGHT to blow off a question and confront people for acting as if they are entitled to a response is EXPLICITLY reserved.
Just MHO.
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