View Full Version : Germanwings Pilot Was Locked Out of Cockpit Before Crash in France
Amp Mangum
03-25-15, 20:59
“You can hear he is trying to smash the door down.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/germanwings-airbus-crash.html?_r=0
Averageman
03-25-15, 21:01
Thats an ugly way to go out.
Let me guess, the co-pilot's name is Abdul Muhammad. All kidding aside, it is hard to imagine a senario where this is accidental if the reports are true.
Let me guess, the co-pilot's name is Abdul Muhammad.
Not much of a statement in crashing 150 people into the side of a mountain.
More interested in the manifest to see if anyone of high value was onboard.
Have the released the name of the pilots yet?
...........................
My guess is that it was intentional.
I'm guessing it's intentional but maybe the pilot had a brain aneurysm.
My understanding from this evening's reporting is that the cabin lock-out has 3 settings: unlocked, manual, and locked. The first is self-explanatory. The second locks the door but allows the door to be opened from the cabin exterior with a combination. Locked removes the ability to use the combination and essentially seals the cabin. According to CNN, the SOP is for the cabin door to be set on manual when one of the crew exits to take a whiz so that they could re-enter with the combination in case of an emergency with the remaining crew member. Thus, someone would have had to accidently set the door to locked and then experienced an incapacitating event after their partner exited the cabin. That sounds possible but not likely.
I'm guessing it's intentional but maybe the pilot had a brain aneurysm.
The pilot/co-pilot who was heard trying to smash in the door would have had a code to enter the door with. HOWEVER, the code can be overridden from inside the cockpit. The plot thickens.......
EDT: didn't see Sensei's post above mine. But he's right, possible but not likely.
Averageman
03-26-15, 07:08
They just announced it was deliberate.
They just announced it was deliberate.
Bah, beat me to it.
...and the guys name is not Abdul. It's some German dude.
Either he is a converted muslim, has some family that was abducted by muslims that forced him to do this, or he just wanted to off himself and take 100+ people with him.
Eurodriver
03-26-15, 07:37
Let us not try and act like crazed lunatics don't commit acts of mass murder for reasons other than Islam.
Focusing too much on Islam is just as bad as ignoring it all together.
I listed three options, not trying or acting, like anything.
Further, if you had to wager your entire net worth on a 2015 violent act involving the hijacking and crashing of a commercial airliner, and I gave you four choices....you'd pick something other than Radical Islamist/Influenced by Radical Islamist(s)?
Let us not try and act like crazed lunatics don't commit acts of mass murder for reasons other than Islam.
Focusing too much on Islam is just as bad as ignoring it all together.
Eurodriver
03-26-15, 08:46
My post wasn't directed at you at all, just the thread direction in general.
Of course I'd bet on Islam, but confirmation bias is still no bueno. When AA Flight 587 crashed in Queens 2 months after 9/11, everyone thought it was terrorism, when it was in fact a direct result of poor pilot training.
Silk Air Flight 185 is another example. The guy just lost over a million dollars, was pissed at the world, and took everyone down with him.
My only point is that we shouldn't jump to conclusions, not that we should pretend Islam could never be responsible.
...........................
Averageman
03-26-15, 10:45
At this time, one can only speculate as to why the co-pilot deliberately crashed the Airbus. As to this event being attributable to terrorism, for every day that passes without a terrorist group taking responsibility for the crash, this is less likely to be the case. Instead, if I were to speculate, mental illness (such as clinical depression, etc.) may ultimately be ruled the reason the co-pilot deliberately destroyed the aircraft, taking 149 others with him. According to investigators, the co-pilot's breathing was eerily normal, despite the pounding on the cockpit door, and the undoubtedly chaotic scene in the cabin as passengers realized what was happening.
We may never know, but it is also unlikely we will ever get an autopsy either. Apparently he was very normal and well liked to those around him. Wondering if you could have a brain aneurism and breath "normally" after your melon went out of order?
Even if you say terrorism didn't cause it, you have to admit, if people didn't take hostages, break down doors to the cabin or commit terrorist acts and hijackings, that door would have been able to be opened.
...........................
...........................
KalashniKEV
03-26-15, 15:16
When AA Flight 587 crashed in Queens 2 months after 9/11, everyone thought it was terrorism, when it was in fact a direct result of poor pilot training.
A better example was when kiddies were getting gunned down on Utoya and buildings exploding in downtown Oslo- the media link to radical Islamic terror in the aftermath was more than just speculative.
As it turns out though, the guy was a Christian fundamentalist who prayed to Jesus for success in murdering every child on the island.
I read the passengers were heard screaming in the last few seconds as they realized the plane was getting lower and lower, and I'm guessing saw the frantic struggle up at the cockpit door. What a horrible way to die.
All kidding aside, it is hard to imagine a senario where this is accidental if the reports are true.
The evidence I have heard suggests nothing but accidental. I have heard there is no conversation, just silence and a gradual decline to crash.
I would think if it was intentional, there would arguing, profanity, and a steep dive.
Apparently, the door was intentionally disabled from the inside. It is now reported this was an intentional act, ruling out the medical emergency possibility. Again, I continue to lean to suicide (and murder).
Yes it is SOP to deliberately lock door from inside at all times.
Yes it is SOP to deliberately lock door from inside at all times.
Not to disable to the point that re-entry with code from the outside is impossible.
Not to disable to the point that re-entry with code from the outside is impossible.
Well I have never been on a Lufthansa A320 but of all the planes I have been on there is no code. Once the door is locked from inside, nobody is getting in. It is mechanical, not electronic. Even if it is a code-based door, I find it hard to believe that this early into the investigation they have already found the door, examined evidence, and have concluded this. Seems to be a horrible design if an inexperienced pilot can do that so quickly and easily. But hey it would not be the first design flaw in an Airbus that resulted in a crash.
Recall just a few months a go a US plane had a door malfunction and the co-pilot had to land it by himself.
Keep in mind that in breaking news like this early reports of the "facts" are usually wrong.
Well I have never been on a Lufthansa A320 but of all the planes I have been on there is no code. Once the door is locked from inside, nobody is getting in. It is mechanical, not electronic. Even if it is a code-based door, I find it hard to believe that this early into the investigation they have already found the door, examined evidence, and have concluded this. Seems to be a horrible design if an inexperienced pilot can do that so quickly and easily. But hey it would not be the first design flaw in an Airbus that resulted in a crash.
Most doors are electronic, not pure mechanical. Most doors have a keypad. You know the code, you punch it in, you wait. The cockpit crew has 3 options: allow, deny, auto(has a delay where if they do nothing the door opens).
And an "inexperienced" pilot had at least a 2 month training class and is type rated in the airplane he is flying. Operation of the door would be covered in probably both the systems portion of the class as well as the security portion as well as the physical hands on "doors" training on either a real airplane or a procedure trainer. Its not an unfamiliar thing to do or a "gee, I wonder what this switch panel does".
Most doors are electronic, not pure mechanical. Most doors have a keypad. You know the code, you punch it in, you wait. The cockpit crew has 3 options: allow, deny, auto(has a delay where if they do nothing the door opens).
And an "inexperienced" pilot had at least a 2 month training class and is type rated in the airplane he is flying. Operation of the door would be covered in probably both the systems portion of the class as well as the security portion as well as the physical hands on "doors" training on either a real airplane or a procedure trainer. Its not an unfamiliar thing to do or a "gee, I wonder what this switch panel does".
You are 100% correct. The Airbus door is very similar to the Boeing 737, both electrical and mechanical with an keypad. Added to the training, the pilots use the door several times each day, so they have a lot of hands on experience with it.
Most doors are electronic, not pure mechanical. Most doors have a keypad. You know the code, you punch it in, you wait. The cockpit crew has 3 options: allow, deny, auto(has a delay where if they do nothing the door opens).
And an "inexperienced" pilot had at least a 2 month training class and is type rated in the airplane he is flying. Operation of the door would be covered in probably both the systems portion of the class as well as the security portion as well as the physical hands on "doors" training on either a real airplane or a procedure trainer. Its not an unfamiliar thing to do or a "gee, I wonder what this switch panel does".
Clearly, the co-pilot actively denied cockpit access. Revisions to cockpit access will undoubtedly take place.
Clearly, the co-pilot actively denied cockpit access. Revisions to cockpit access will undoubtedly take place.
Clearly(in my most sarcastic tone). You are as bad as the media at speculation. Nobody knows what really happened. They are speculating, plain and simple. Until they find the flight data recorder, its all speculation based off of a tape recording.
I doubt we will see a change in the US as far as cockpit access goes. I wont go into detail, but in the USA we are never alone in the cockpit, even with an electronic door.
Clearly(in my most sarcastic tone). You are as bad as the media at speculation. Nobody knows what really happened. They are speculating, plain and simple. Until they find the flight data recorder, its all speculation based off of a tape recording.
I doubt we will see a change in the US as far as cockpit access goes. I wont go into detail, but in the USA we are never alone in the cockpit, even with an electronic door.
There is no other reasonable explanation at this point.
It is reported that some European airlines have already implemented cockpit access changes.
ETA: Transponder data show that the autopilot was re-programmed by someone in the cockpit to change the plane's altitude from 38,000 feet to 100 feet...
With all due respect, you're wrong. A voice recorder was located and analyzed.
Fatal Descent of Germanwings Plane Was ‘Deliberate,’ French Authorities Say
Re-read what I wrote AGAIN.
Aircraft certified under Part 25 have 2 boxes a CVR and a DFDR. Cockpit voice recorder records about 2 hours of audio. Digital flight data recorder records what the plane is physically doing, flight control positions, engine parameters and a bunch of other functions.
A VOICE RECORDER was found, yup, I already stated that. They found the flight data recorder, but the recorder part was missing. SO UNTIL THEY FIND THE FLIGHT DATA RECORDER(which records 10's to 100's of parameters of what the physical aircraft is doing) memory card its all speculation based off of a tape recording.
Did you know that when listening to a CVR tape(which is the ONLY piece of the puzzle they have) you can hear things that DONT exist based on a pre-conceived idea of what you are listening for? "oh so you say I should hear some banging on the door, yea I hear it" when the real sound is mach buffeting or localized mach or something of that nature as the aircraft is out of control(im in NO WAY saying that is what they are hearing and I have NOT heard the tape and the tape will/should NEVER be released-its basically illegal in the US to release CVR tapes, but I dont know about Europe). SO the CVR tape that they have is but one piece of the puzzle.
The aircraft accident investigator in me hates seeing accidents/incidents being dismantled and "solved" by people who have somewhere between 0 and 1 percent of the overall picture even without officials saying what they have found. The NTSB system is a pretty good system in that they pretty much keep things under wraps until they have definitive proof of something. I doubt the NTSB would be saying anything pointing to this being deliberate. They would put out a statement saying something like "we have reviewed the CVR, this is what we heard" and that would be that. The last lady that spoke out of turn for the NTSB during the Asiana crash(and I think released some tweets or what not) was relieved of her duties pretty quickly because thats not how the NTSB acts.
I still think back to the first Malaysian crash when within a day or 2 everybody(in the media at least) had SOLVED THE MYSTERY or KNEW WHERE THE PLANE WAS and all I could think was "show me pieces of the plane, show me the data from the boxes" and then we can say we "know where the plane is" or "we have solved the mystery", until then you are just sensationalizing things, which, oh, by the way, have ALL turned out to be false because, they STILL havent found the plane. So until the guys on the ground doing the investigation have a little more proof than a CVR recording, I will not speculate into the cause of this crash. It could very well turn out to be what they are claiming. It could turn out to be something completely different.
Re-read what I wrote AGAIN.
Aircraft certified under Part 25 have 2 boxes a CVR and a DFDR. Cockpit voice recorder records about 2 hours of audio. Digital flight data recorder records what the plane is physically doing, flight control positions, engine parameters and a bunch of other functions.
A VOICE RECORDER was found, yup, I already stated that. They found the flight data recorder, but the recorder part was missing. SO UNTIL THEY FIND THE FLIGHT DATA RECORDER(which records 10's to 100's of parameters of what the physical aircraft is doing) memory card its all speculation based off of a tape recording.
Did you know that when listening to a CVR tape(which is the ONLY piece of the puzzle they have) you can hear things that DONT exist based on a pre-conceived idea of what you are listening for? "oh so you say I should hear some banging on the door, yea I hear it" when the real sound is mach buffeting or localized mach or something of that nature as the aircraft is out of control(im in NO WAY saying that is what they are hearing and I have NOT heard the tape and the tape will/should NEVER be released-its basically illegal in the US to release CVR tapes, but I dont know about Europe). SO the CVR tape that they have is but one piece of the puzzle.
The aircraft accident investigator in me hates seeing accidents/incidents being dismantled and "solved" by people who have somewhere between 0 and 1 percent of the overall picture even without officials saying what they have found. The NTSB system is a pretty good system in that they pretty much keep things under wraps until they have definitive proof of something. I doubt the NTSB would be saying anything pointing to this being deliberate. They would put out a statement saying something like "we have reviewed the CVR, this is what we heard" and that would be that. The last lady that spoke out of turn for the NTSB during the Asiana crash(and I think released some tweets or what not) was relieved of her duties pretty quickly because thats not how the NTSB acts.
I still think back to the first Malaysian crash when within a day or 2 everybody(in the media at least) had SOLVED THE MYSTERY or KNEW WHERE THE PLANE WAS and all I could think was "show me pieces of the plane, show me the data from the boxes" and then we can say we "know where the plane is" or "we have solved the mystery", until then you are just sensationalizing things, which, oh, by the way, have ALL turned out to be false because, they STILL havent found the plane.
Lufthansa and the Chief Prosecutor have thus far spoken freely about the incident and their beliefs: that it was deliberate. What do you make of the transponder data?
Lufthansa and the Chief Prosecutor have thus far spoken freely about the incident and their beliefs: that it was deliberate. What do you make of the transponder data?
I havent read much on this accident honestly because, like I said, its all speculation and media sensationalism which spirals out of control.
As far as the transponder data, my calculation shows about a 4400 FPM decent rate(38000-7000ft in 7 minutes I believe is what I heard). Pretty high, but not ridiculous. Standard in my aircraft if I want to do an idle decent without any drag devices(spoilers) is 3000 fpm. If I put spoilers out I can hit 4000-4500fpm pretty easily. As long as you are smooth in the transitions nobody in the back would have any clue you were descending that quickly(which is possibly why nobody in the back of this a/c realized what was going on until just a few seconds before impact and started screaming). If I were to configure my plane to do an emergency decent(we have a specific certified configuration and profile for this) you can hit 7-8k+ FPM decent rates. I believe emergency decent certification is max certified altitude to 10k ft in 4 minutes(it might be 8 minutes though). Most passenger oxygen in the cabin is good for only 12-15 minutes.
I havent read much on this accident honestly because, like I said, its all speculation and media sensationalism which spirals out of control.
As far as the transponder data, my calculation shows about a 4400 FPM decent rate(38000-7000ft in 7 minutes I believe is what I heard). Pretty high, but not ridiculous. Standard in my aircraft if I want to do an idle decent without any drag devices(spoilers) is 3000 fpm. If I put spoilers out I can hit 4000-4500fpm pretty easily. As long as you are smooth in the transitions nobody in the back would have any clue you were descending that quickly(which is possibly why nobody in the back of this a/c realized what was going on until just a few seconds before impact and started screaming). If I were to configure my plane to do an emergency decent(we have a specific certified configuration and profile for this) you can hit 7-8k+ FPM decent rates. I believe emergency decent certification is max certified altitude to 10k ft in 4 minutes(it might be 8 minutes though). Most passenger oxygen in the cabin is good for only 12-15 minutes.
I appreciate your insight.
I wont go into detail, but in the USA we are never alone in the cockpit, even with an electronic door.
Anyone can watch the procedures and see how it works. I did about 110 segments last year almost all on AA. I have seen just about every procedure done in multiple ways. Except one. In-Flight cockpit access is the only one that I have observed consistently done the same way.
Was co-pilot a Jihadist? Or is this fake news?
An article which appeared today in the German magazine, PI-News, reports that during a six-month break from his job with Germanwings, co-pilot Andreas Lubitz, the man now accused of hijacking and crashing the 320 Airbus into the French Alps, killing all 150 aboard, converted to Islam.
http://universalfreepress.com/report-germanwings-co-pilot-recent-convert-islam/#
And an "inexperienced" pilot had at least a 2 month training class and is type rated in the airplane he is flying. Operation of the door would be covered in probably both the systems portion of the class as well as the security portion as well as the physical hands on "doors" training on either a real airplane or a procedure trainer. Its not an unfamiliar thing to do or a "gee, I wonder what this switch panel does".
I was referring to the word "disable", as in "to put out of action" like MacGyver would do, not "disable" to mean put the door switch into a switchable position which anyone who saw the switch would be able to figure out how to do.
http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/v2_article_large/public/2015/03/26/cockpit-door.JPG?itok=1hEWJYR2
I appreciate your insight.
I just saw your post about the transponder data. There is NO WAY transponder data that ATC see's would know that somebody programed the auto pilot. It doesnt work that way.
A transponder simply makes your radar target "bigger" to the controller and assigns a code to it so the controller knows which "blip" is you. If Mode-S really ever takes off(it may be used in Europe, I dont know) it can send a few other basic pieces of information(flight number, aircraft registration, A/C type, true airspeed, etc...).
But auto pilot programing, nope, no way, no how did "transponder data" show that somebody set the altitude selector to 100 feet.
I was referring to the word "disable", as in "to put out of action" like MacGyver would do, not "disable" to mean put the door switch into a switchable position which anyone who saw the switch would be able to figure out how to do.
http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/v2_article_large/public/2015/03/26/cockpit-door.JPG?itok=1hEWJYR2
you turn around in the cockpit(or look up depending on A/C) and you pull a circuit breaker. Not that hard. I could give anybody a few minutes in my A/C and tell them to pull a certain system circuit breaker and they could find it, they are all labeled in plain english in every airplane I have ever been on including little Cessna's. IF(and again, I hate to speculate) this guy had planned this, he knew EXACTLY what CB to pull(if he even did that). Much easier to just flip the switch to lock if he was the only guy up there. Like I said, in the US, we are never alone in the cockpit.
ETA: this is one of the CB panels on an A320. You can see how everything is clearly labeled.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f8/pilotcyxh/IMG_2192.jpg
Like I said, in the US, we are never alone in the cockpit.
Yeah I was pretty shocked to find out they allow one person in cockpit over there, though I doubt most flight attendants could stop a determined pilot from crashing the plane.
I just saw your post about the transponder data. There is NO WAY transponder data that ATC see's would know that somebody programed the auto pilot. It doesnt work that way.
A transponder simply makes your radar target "bigger" to the controller and assigns a code to it so the controller knows which "blip" is you. If Mode-S really ever takes off(it may be used in Europe, I dont know) it can send a few other basic pieces of information(flight number, aircraft registration, A/C type, true airspeed, etc...).
But auto pilot programing, nope, no way, no how did "transponder data" show that somebody set the altitude selector to 100 feet.
There is a lot of misinformation about "transponders" and if that is some how a magical thing planes have as if it is a two way direct link with the ground.
To everyone else, thing of a transponder as a billboard. "This airplane is this number" and nothing more. That number may have additional information attached, but not much more. Mode C is an altitude reporting system that piggybacks on a transponder code, but only reports altitude. Mode S I am excited about, but that is many years away from being implemented state side, though new transponders now a days can have mode s included for only an extra grand.
Either way, I wouldn't waste your breath. The media pundits will bleet and spew more misinformation around. My wife asked if a 4k foot/min descent was excessive. I said it usually isn't violent and the people in the back wouldn't necessarily know.
It had occurred to me this was essentially a crime of opportunity.
On a short haul flight like this the Co-pilot did not know wether the pilot would have to go to the bathroom or not.
Sure I expect he had fantasized about doing this many times before, but he might not have the opportunity on other days when he would have done this.
Lastly luckily this was over the Alps, had it been over a populated area he could have aimed for a building, like in 9/11. He chose to kill almost 150 people, who's to say he would not have gone for as many as possible.
It had occurred to me this was essentially a crime of opportunity.
On a short haul flight like this the Co-pilot did not know wether the pilot would have to go to the bathroom or not.
Sure I expect he had fantasized about doing this many times before, but he might not have the opportunity on other days when he would have done this.
Lastly luckily this was over the Alps, had it been over a populated area he could have aimed for a building, like in 9/11. He chose to kill almost 150 people, who's to say he would not have gone for as many as possible.
It is difficult with certainty to determine premeditation. Reports claim he suffered from depression and his girlfriend ended their relationship.
They have reported that they found many doctors notes bu they also are saying they have found something in his parents home that should explain why he did it but are not saying what it is. Seems like they mean something well beyond the doctors notes and other such known issues. They say it's not a suicide note either.
There is a lot of misinformation about "transponders" and if that is some how a magical thing planes have as if it is a two way direct link with the ground.
To everyone else, thing of a transponder as a billboard. "This airplane is this number" and nothing more. That number may have additional information attached, but not much more. Mode C is an altitude reporting system that piggybacks on a transponder code, but only reports altitude. Mode S I am excited about, but that is many years away from being implemented state side, though new transponders now a days can have mode s included for only an extra grand.
Either way, I wouldn't waste your breath. The media pundits will bleet and spew more misinformation around. My wife asked if a 4k foot/min descent was excessive. I said it usually isn't violent and the people in the back wouldn't necessarily know.
^^^^^^This. Also, it is the acceleration in decent, or anywhere that you feel. Once you reach a steady state, you no longer feel the motion unless there are other forces like turbulence, but you would feel them anyway.
It had occurred to me this was essentially a crime of opportunity.
On a short haul flight like this the Co-pilot did not know wether the pilot would have to go to the bathroom or not.
That's the part that gets me... the reports say he was friendly in conversation up until the pilot said take over.. where he made a curt one word answer. That sort of implies that he 'decided' right then.... then somehow just went click, click, click, and calmly watched it fly in. I don't know all the mental stuff works but that seems like some instant and total disconnect from society and reality... to the point that he had not only 'thought about it before' but actually 'lived there' on a continual basis. I just don't see how someone could make such a drastic change.
It is difficult with certainty to determine premeditation. Reports claim he suffered from depression and his girlfriend ended their relationship.
Exactly what is "premeditated"? Did he have to plan it for a month? A week? Or are you saying he was siiiiick and needed help? [sarcasm dripping voice off]. I don't give a flying fvck (no pun intended) what his weak-minded issues were......he murdered 150 people. If there is a Hell I hope that sorry POS is burning in it. His girlfriend broke up with him and he was depressed. WAAAHHH! :fie: I think I'll murder a whole planeload of innocent people.
Fvck him.
Exactly what is "premeditated"? Did he have to plan it for a month? A week? Or are you saying he was siiiiick and needed help? [sarcasm dripping voice off]. I don't give a flying fvck (no pun intended) what his weak-minded issues were......he murdered 150 people. If there is a Hell I hope that sorry POS is burning in it. His girlfriend broke up with him and he was depressed. WAAAHHH! :fie: I think I'll murder a whole planeload of innocent people.
Fvck him.
I understand your frustration. We will have to wait for the investigation to run its course before we'll learn more about his state of mind. Having said that, mental illness, whether present in this case or not, is real disease and can play a role in a person's decision making process. The event is without a doubt very tragic.
I understand your frustration. We will have to wait for the investigation to run its course before we'll learn more about his state of mind. Having said that, mental illness, whether present in this case or not, is real disease and can play a role in a person's decision making process. The event is without a doubt very tragic.
I can cut someone with mental issues some slack until they cross the line of irrevocably taking a life....in this case 150 of them. Then I don't care what their problem was or how "valid" it is. I assign no mitigation when a life has been taken in cold blood. If you're that deranged you shouldn't be breathing air. Just as in the case of that POS Lanza I have no sympathy or understanding, and certainly don't excuse their actions.
ETA: just heard on the radio a few minutes ago that they found a torn-up doctors note that would have kept him from flying the day of the crime (not going to call it an "accident").
Actions were premeditated, and co-pilot suffered from serious psychosomatic illness, and problems with his vision.
Lufthansa will likely pay dearly for letting him pilot.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3015504/I-m-planning-heinous-act-remembered-forever-Killer-pilot-s-ex-girlfriend-says-shared-chilling-prophecy-Alps-crash-woke-nightmares-shouting-going-down.html
eightmillimeter
03-28-15, 22:50
It had occurred to me this was essentially a crime of opportunity.
On a short haul flight like this the Co-pilot did not know wether the pilot would have to go to the bathroom or not.
Sure I expect he had fantasized about doing this many times before, but he might not have the opportunity on other days when he would have done this.
Lastly luckily this was over the Alps, had it been over a populated area he could have aimed for a building, like in 9/11. He chose to kill almost 150 people, who's to say he would not have gone for as many as possible.
I can cut someone with mental issues some slack until they cross the line of irrevocably taking a life....in this case 150 of them. Then I don't care what their problem was or how "valid" it is. I assign no mitigation when a life has been taken in cold blood. If you're that deranged you shouldn't be breathing air. Just as in the case of that POS Lanza I have no sympathy or understanding, and certainly don't excuse their actions.
ETA: just heard on the radio a few minutes ago that they found a torn-up doctors note that would have kept him from flying the day of the crime (not going to call it an "accident").
I'm tracking you guys. This guy is no different than any Lanza, Harris, Seung-Hui Cho... Unsupervised treatment for mental problems, missed indicators or predictors of possible violence/outburst, you name it, they are all the same. Mass killing is mass killing, and these people choose whatever weapon they have available or can get their hands on.
Amp Mangum
03-29-15, 07:51
According to Michael Mannheimer, a writer for German PI-News, Germany now has its own 9/11, thanks to the convert to Islam, Andreas Lubitz.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/03/breaking-german-news-germanwings-airbus-co-pilot-was-muslim-convert/
Eurodriver
03-29-15, 08:50
According to Michael Mannheimer, a writer for German PI-News, Germany now has its own 9/11, thanks to the convert to Islam, Andreas Lubitz.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/03/breaking-german-news-germanwings-airbus-co-pilot-was-muslim-convert/
As much as we want to believe it...
The source is German-PI News. "PI" is a site called Politically Incorrect News, which is not exactly Der Spiegel, and they didn't even run a story about Lubitz's supposed conversion to Islam. That story came from PI-News blogger Michael Mannheimer's personal website, where he put together the following information:
Lubitz trained as a pilot in Bremen, which is also the home of a mosque that was investigated in December for alleged supporting the Islamic State. (This is true, according to Der Spiegel.)
Lubitz took a few months off at one point before returning to work and getting recertified to fly. (This is also true: Lufthansa CEO Carsten Spohr confirmed that Lubitz "took a break in his training six years ago. Then he did the tests again. And he was deemed fit to fly.")
The author then concludes: "Probably Lubitz converted to Islam during this interruption."
There is no evidence of his conversion to Islam, and to conclude that there is because he "took some time off from flying" in a German city that has a radical mosque is as asinine as a bunch of gun enthusiasts claiming that Ebola is going to be the next great pandemic.
...oh wait.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-29-15, 12:14
I'm tracking you guys. This guy is no different than any Lanza, Harris, Seung-Hui Cho... Unsupervised treatment for mental problems, missed indicators or predictors of possible violence/outburst, you name it, they are all the same. Mass killing is mass killing, and these people choose whatever weapon they have available or can get their hands on.
If we can't keep a crazy (as in medical crazy) and half blind person out of the cockpit of a commercial jet, what chance does society in general have?
You get to this level of crazy and it gets harder to condemn just the nut. He was under the care of a doctor and you still can't keep him out of the cockpit. The EU is a bit odd on privacy, but it seems that when the public safety is at risk, they are less concerned about being politically correct than we are.
I'd put it at a 50:50 that the Islam thing is facebook hack job. It seems the only relevance it would have is that perhaps Lufthansa was a bit gun shy on calling him out on crazy if he considered being a Muslim an excuse for going after his crazy.
630 hours since 2013??? Hell, I have about that many hours on commercial airlines in that stretch of time, but I was in the back ;)
If we can't keep a crazy (as in medical crazy) and half blind person out of the cockpit of a commercial jet, what chance does society in general have?
You get to this level of crazy and it gets harder to condemn just the nut. He was under the care of a doctor and you still can't keep him out of the cockpit. The EU is a bit odd on privacy, but it seems that when the public safety is at risk, they are less concerned about being politically correct than we are.
I'd put it at a 50:50 that the Islam thing is facebook hack job. It seems the only relevance it would have is that perhaps Lufthansa was a bit gun shy on calling him out on crazy if he considered being a Muslim an excuse for going after his crazy.
630 hours since 2013??? Hell, I have about that many hours on commercial airlines in that stretch of time, but I was in the back ;)
Bottomline: Due to our nature, you can't have a safe AND free society.
MountainRaven
03-29-15, 14:38
Bottomline: Due to our nature, you can't have a safe AND free society.
Chancellor, er, I mean Emperor Palpatine disagrees.
And would this face lie to you?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/07/c6/d0/07c6d0be4e1b70089a205d686c2c1173.jpg
:sarcastic:
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-29-15, 15:55
Bottomline: Due to our nature, you can't have a safe AND free society.
This isn't a John Stossell show where he talks abut how we should be able to fly on uncertified planes with pilots that stayed at Holiday-Inn Express last night. The reports say that his doctor found him unfit for duty. That implies that he knew what he did for work. At least here in the States there are no issues with a shrink contacting authorities if the patient is a threat to themselves or others.
This isn't a free or safe issue, this is a simple bureaucracy that failed.
This isn't a John Stossell show where he talks abut how we should be able to fly on uncertified planes with pilots that stayed at Holiday-Inn Express last night. The reports say that his doctor found him unfit for duty. That implies that he knew what he did for work. At least here in the States there are no issues with a shrink contacting authorities if the patient is a threat to themselves or others.
This isn't a free or safe issue, this is a simple bureaucracy that failed.
We do not know all the details surrounding this event, or the events leading up to it, but with that being said, if you rely on the bureaucracy to be fail-proof or ensure everyone's safety, you're fooling yourself. Whenever men are fully committed to do evil, they eventually will succeed, regardless of how many hurdles they must overcome. While I recognize the huge tragedy that took place, I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it, to quote Mr. Jefferson.
ForTehNguyen
03-29-15, 17:54
First rule of Pharm Club. Dont talk about Pharm club or you will lose your advertising.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEELhc9EQ3U
First rule of Pharm Club. Dont talk about Pharm club or you will lose your advertising.
Mental illness is real, and drugs, to include SSRIs, show efficacy in treating mental illnesses.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-30-15, 00:41
We do not know all the details surrounding this event, or the events leading up to it, but with that being said, if you rely on the bureaucracy to be fail-proof or ensure everyone's safety, you're fooling yourself. Whenever men are fully committed to do evil, they eventually will succeed, regardless of how many hurdles they must overcome. While I recognize the huge tragedy that took place, I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it, to quote Mr. Jefferson.
I think the people couching this as a free vs. safe thing have some kind of back issue that they are dealing with, either that or a comprehension issue.
A doctor has a medical opinion that a patient is not fit to fly a commercial airplane.
There is no safety-freedom issue here.
Anyone who says there is, has some kind of hang-up.
He was a frickin' commercial pilot, not some loner with some WWII memorabilia that gets turned in by his neighbor. Have some here become so afraid of black helicopters that a crazy guy flying a commercial plane into a mountain triggers their jack-booted-thug-radar?
If you are a commercial pilot you don't have the right to be crazy. He should have stuck to his job as a cook at Burger King or even as a Flight Attendant.
You wanna kill yourself, fine your business...but taking 150+ people with you - that's just plain disgusting..burn in hell you POS...
Homosexuality and mental illness go hand in hand...
The 27-year-old co-pilot Andreas Lubitz believed to have deliberately crashed Germanwings Flight 4U 9525 plane, killing 149 passengers, trawled gay porn websites and sites relating to suicide, investigators have revealed.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/germanwings-alps-disaster-co-pilot-andreas-lubitz-trawled-suicide-gay-websites-before-crash-1494044
Homosexuality and mental illness go hand in hand...
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/germanwings-alps-disaster-co-pilot-andreas-lubitz-trawled-suicide-gay-websites-before-crash-1494044
You really think him being gay made him kill himself? I am missing the point.
You really think him being gay made him kill himself? I am missing the point.
The point is correlation, not causation.
The point is correlation, not causation.
If correlation does not rise to causation then it is irrelevant.
If correlation does not rise to causation then it is irrelevant.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Please then explain.
A person being homosexual does not make them homicidal. Their angst over trying to understand their feelings may be directed inward negatively affecting their self image and bringing ridicule upon them giving rise to suicidal ideation, sure. Likewise their angst may be directed outward in the form of anger and hatred manifesting homicidal ideation. Oversimplification. But simply being gay does not make one a killer in waiting.
You could maybe make the argument that homosexuals as a population exhibit a greater propensity for developing other forms of psychopathology than non homosexuals, but that's not the same thing.
At this stage I'm betting that Lufhansa and GermanWings are praying that the guy left a nasty "terrorist" manifesto. As is the German equivalent of the FAA. If it turns out that this guy was nuts they are going to pay out the butt and have a bunch of pissed off people asking all sorts of questions they may not have answers to.
At this stage I'm betting that Lufhansa and GermanWings are praying that the guy left a nasty "terrorist" manifesto. As is the German equivalent of the FAA. If it turns out that this guy was nuts they are going to pay out the butt and have a bunch of pissed off people asking all sorts of questions they may not have answers to.
Its pretty well confirmed he was the adult equivalent of a school shooter. This was not an act of terrorism. He had no statement, no demands, no agenda. He simply wanted to be special, to be remembered. He knew he was going to loose what he loved (flying) and had lost the person he loved. He was just a shit bag, he wasn't fighting for anything.
Bottomline: Due to our nature, you can't have a safe AND free society.
Is a totalitarian society a safe one? Human nature also goes against everyone being sheep-like. Totalitarianism is quite unsafe for those who speak their minds.
Flight data recorder found. Initial testing shows that co-pilot purposely used the controls to speed up the descent.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/03/europe/france-germanwings-plane-crash-main/
Combine this with audio from the voice recorder that clearly indicates distress in the cabin, it is pretty clear cut that this douche is a murderer.
Psychologists/psychiatrists comment on co-pilots mental health. Interesting read.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/aggression-not-just-depression-led-copilot-to-crash-plane-experts-say/ar-AAasZnj
Aggression, not just depression, led copilot to crash plane, experts say
This is a mass-murder/suicide, said Victoroff. It appears to have been premeditated. And it was preventable.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.