View Full Version : The Training Exercise Heard Round the World
Doc Safari
03-26-15, 17:26
http://www.stripes.com/news/us/army-special-operations-command-pushes-back-against-alarmist-claims-about-upcoming-exercise-1.335949
I just paid a little attention to this at first, but now it seems to be taking on a life of its own. The military conducts training exercises all the time. But right or wrong, the distrust of the US government has gotten so pervasive that the backlash has actually gotten the military to respond defensively to rumors that it's a precursor to martial law.
That which we perceive as real is real in its consequences.
Moose-Knuckle
03-26-15, 18:05
http://www.stripes.com/news/us/army-special-operations-command-pushes-back-against-alarmist-claims-about-upcoming-exercise-1.335949
I just paid a little attention to this at first, but now it seems to be taking on a life of its own. The military conducts training exercises all the time. But right or wrong, the distrust of the US government has gotten so pervasive that the backlash has actually gotten the military to respond defensively to rumors that it's a precursor to martial law.
That which we perceive as real is real in its consequences.
There was a thread a year ago or so about the exercises by SOCOM and JSOC in US cities. Day and night time, one even included an MH-6 Little Bird from the 160th SOAR firing blanks over a congested freeway. Some of our own SME confirmed that this happens on a regular basis and nothing to be overly alarmed about. With that said, with the current administration at the helm and the various EO's and COG plans on the books I understand the concern and agree with it.
Eurodriver
03-26-15, 18:28
If the US Gov't is trying to subdue a right-wing insurrection using USASOC forces, they are going about things the wrong way.
It would be the equivalent of the British sending Paul Revere out to warn them of an impending Colonial attack.
Source: Personal experience with USASOC
Moose-Knuckle
03-26-15, 18:44
If the US Gov't is trying to subdue a right-wing insurrection using USASOC forces, they are going about things the wrong way.
It would be the equivalent of the British sending Paul Revere out to warn them of an impending Colonial attack.
Source: Personal experience with USASOC
Agree with you on the personnel, ever hear of The Resister? Guy's like Barry cause civil wars and military coups d'état.
Eurodriver
03-26-15, 18:52
ever hear of The Resister? Guy's like Barry cause civil wars and military coups d'état.
Just googled it. Very interesting, and it makes me glad to see folks that "get it".
Where's my tinfoil hat!!!
Talk about people reaching that conclusion not having a single clue....
If the US Gov't is trying to subdue a right-wing insurrection using USASOC forces, they are going about things the wrong way.
It would be the equivalent of the British sending Paul Revere out to warn them of an impending Colonial attack.
Source: Personal experience with USASOC
Read it for years.
Talk about people reaching that conclusion not having a single clue....
How would you know? You're not even on the same continent! ;)
FWIW, I participated in the largest amphibious landing in Europe since WWII back in 1986, in Norway. Spent hours on the beach talking to Norwegians who thought it was awesome we were doing it. Then proceeded to my assigned position and set up a SAM site, in a farmer's back yard. Rather than getting read the riot act, my team was offered a hot meal and use of their bathroom. I've been to 18 countries and the hospitality I received in Norway is unmatched. I highly doubt that would happen in the U.S, but I could be wrong.
The biggest issue we have is how often our government distrusts it's citizens, which makes it pretty tough to trust them. It has nothing to do with what those USASOC guys are doing. It has everything to do with the civilian government that wields them. :(
Bolt_Overide
03-27-15, 08:51
The biggest issue we have is how often our government distrusts it's citizens, which makes it pretty tough to trust them. It has nothing to do with what those USASOC guys are doing. It has everything to do with the civilian government that wields them. :(
^^That
NCPatrolAR
03-27-15, 10:03
So do people raise as big of a when the "enemy" in these exercises are left wing and environmental groups!
So do people raise as big of a when the "enemy" in these exercises are left wing and environmental groups!
Does that ever happen? Serious question.
http://www.stripes.com/news/us/army-special-operations-command-pushes-back-against-alarmist-claims-about-upcoming-exercise-1.335949
I just paid a little attention to this at first, but now it seems to be taking on a life of its own. The military conducts training exercises all the time. But right or wrong, the distrust of the US government has gotten so pervasive that the backlash has actually gotten the military to respond defensively to rumors that it's a precursor to martial law.
That which we perceive as real is real in its consequences.
I listen to shortwave, and Alex Jones has been getting a lot, and I mean a lot of mileage out of this.. He's been ranting and raving about it for a week now, I'll have to admit, as long as you take what you hear from him with a huge grain of salt, He can be entertaining..
Doc Safari
03-27-15, 10:33
I listen to shortwave, and Alex Jones has been getting a lot, and I mean a lot of mileage out of this.. He's been ranting and raving about it for a week now, I'll have to admit, as long as you take what you hear from him with a huge grain of salt, He can be entertaining..
I agree. I certainly don't believe a lot of what he says.
The point is not whether this exercise is a precursor to martial law, but that the distrust of the government has become so pervasive that more and more people believe it is.
This subject was actually covered on the Kelly File on Fox last night. That's unprecedented. Normally the rantings of the tinfoil hat conspiracy fringe don't even get an acknowledgement from mainstream news sources.
Something has changed. Things have gotten so mucked up that even wild fears of a military takeover are being discussed.
My contention is that it doesn't matter if the actual event is a "false flag" or whatever term they're using; my contention is that the perception may turn all of this into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Government misreads level of public anxiety and proceeds with military exercise--public becomes even more paranoid and there's a backlash--government attempts to deny/explain/negate the paranoia--government denials make some people even more paranoid--"Bubba" fringe elements decide to "fight back" a la the standoff over the ranch in Nevada--government ends up taking actions which seem to foment the original paranoia, etc.
And you have what is called a "vicious circle"--all because things have gotten so tense that this country is a powder keg waiting to explode over--nothing.
NCPatrolAR
03-27-15, 10:56
Does that ever happen? Serious question.
Yep. We just had some exercises happen in the area that dealt with hostile environmental groups. IME groups from both sides of the fence are used though people only seem to complain when it's right wing groups
Doc Safari
03-27-15, 11:06
Yep. We just had some exercises happen in the area that dealt with hostile environmental groups. IME groups from both sides of the fence are used though people only seem to complain when it's right wing groups
Even if left wing groups are also made the subject of training exercises it will just make the conspiracy theorists expand their paranoia by saying that "all" citizens are being targeted. The "us versus them" aspect is the key to it all, and only makes the conspiracy theory broader.
We are in dangerous times where people are looking for an excuse to light the fuse.
People in the government should be smart enough to realize this and not prick the paranoia by naming ANY domestic group as "the enemy."
I agree. I certainly don't believe a lot of what he says.
The point is not whether this exercise is a precursor to martial law, but that the distrust of the government has become so pervasive that more and more people believe it is.
This subject was actually covered on the Kelly File on Fox last night. That's unprecedented. Normally the rantings of the tinfoil hat conspiracy fringe don't even get an acknowledgement from mainstream news sources.
Something has changed. Things have gotten so mucked up that even wild fears of a military takeover are being discussed.
My contention is that it doesn't matter if the actual event is a "false flag" or whatever term they're using; my contention is that the perception may turn all of this into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Government misreads level of public anxiety and proceeds with military exercise--public becomes even more paranoid and there's a backlash--government attempts to deny/explain/negate the paranoia--government denials make some people even more paranoid--"Bubba" fringe elements decide to "fight back" a la the standoff over the ranch in Nevada--government ends up taking actions which seem to foment the original paranoia, etc.
And you have what is called a "vicious circle"--all because things have gotten so tense that this country is a powder keg waiting to explode over--nothing.
Well, the root cause of all this tension needs to be examined.. IMO the gov't created most of this tension.. Mass spying on our citizens, a lawless thug shitstain of a president. a bumbling, incompetent corrupt congress, a lying media who will say anything to protect said shitstain no matter how ridiculous it is. There's not a lot there to be hopeful or trusting about. Our gov't has shown that it prefers to be influenced not by the people of this country, but with money from large corporations,(after all, SCOTUS said they're "people" too) and with money from other country's, and the super wealthy.. In short, it's for sale, and it's gotten so blatent they don't even try to hide it anymore. So, it's no wonder people think like this. How can you trust your gov't when it has shown over and over again, that it's willing to shove one up your ass, and snap it off the first chance it gets. A good example of this is obamacare.. As far as a self fulfilling prophecy, yes, you're right, it could easily turn into just that. And people like Alex Jones are fanning the flames of paranoia into a bonfire...
NCPatrolAR
03-27-15, 12:46
Even if left wing groups are also made the subject of training exercises it will just make the conspiracy theorists expand their paranoia by saying that "all" citizens are being targeted. The "us versus them" aspect is the key to it all, and only makes the conspiracy theory broader.
We are in dangerous times where people are looking for an excuse to light the fuse.
People in the government should be smart enough to realize this and not prick the paranoia by naming ANY domestic group as "the enemy."
This has been going on since the 90s (that I know of).
For any major military exercise conducted in Norway, often with foreign nations participating, a fictional scenario is created where the local communities are used as the exercise area.
The areas are given fictional names, scenario history is developed to provide the backdrop for the exercise, role players/military personnel assume the roles of everything from local population, community leaders, militias, insurgents, military forces and so forth.
The scenario briefs are made using real maps, with the overlay including the fictional names of the locations.
If someone actually believed that this was not an exercise, but a real assessment of the current situation, and plan to handle it, I would suggest that people thinking this has issues. It is not a rational conclusion to reach.
Yep. We just had some exercises happen in the area that dealt with hostile environmental groups. IME groups from both sides of the fence are used though people only seem to complain when it's right wing groups
Most of us don't frequent the places where the leftists congregate. Do they ever get incensed about it on D.U. or Daily Kos, etc.?
For any major military exercise conducted in Norway, often with foreign nations participating, a fictional scenario is created where the local communities are used as the exercise area.
The areas are given fictional names, scenario history is developed to provide the backdrop for the exercise, role players/military personnel assume the roles of everything from local population, community leaders, militias, insurgents, military forces and so forth.
The scenario briefs are made using real maps, with the overlay including the fictional names of the locations.
If someone actually believed that this was not an exercise, but a real assessment of the current situation, and plan to handle it, I would suggest that people thinking this has issues. It is not a rational conclusion to reach.
I don't think that's it. I think it's a lack of transparency from the "most transparent administration in history. While I'm sure there's some level of coordination with local government agencies, there's most likely a lack of official communication and coordination with the community at large. Military service isn't compulsory in the U.S. (approximately 10% of the population ever serves in the military) and a significant body of them have no clue what the military actually does or does not do.
It's this lack of openess and communication from a distrustful master that alarms some of the citizenry.
NCPatrolAR
03-27-15, 14:04
Most of us don't frequent the places where the leftists congregate. Do they ever get incensed about it on D.U. or Daily Kos, etc.?
Got me; I don't go to those sites. They were pissed about a lot of stuff during the protests at the last DNC though
I don't think that's it. I think it's a lack of transparency from the "most transparent administration in history. While I'm sure there's some level of coordination with local government agencies, there's most likely a lack of official communication and coordination with the community at large. Military service isn't compulsory in the U.S. (approximately 10% of the population ever serves in the military) and a significant body of them have no clue what the military actually does or does not do.
It's this lack of openess and communication from a distrustful master that alarms some of the citizenry.
So, what are the general public's expectations regarding this so called "transparency"?
Should the general public be privy to all that goes on at all levels of government? Should they be clued in to all decisions made, and be able to influence these decisions?
For me, it is hard to fathom that someone in a pretty well off, civilized western country would see a threat to themselves where their own government is concerned.
Not everything is an agenda. Not everything is a conspiracy.
The human imagination is a fascinating thing, and the mind will often see connections where there aren't any.
Doc Safari
03-27-15, 15:02
So, what are the general public's expectations regarding this so called "transparency"?
Should the general public be privy to all that goes on at all levels of government? Should they be clued in to all decisions made, and be able to influence these decisions?
For me, it is hard to fathom that someone in a pretty well off, civilized western country would see a threat to themselves where their own government is concerned.
Not everything is an agenda. Not everything is a conspiracy.
The human imagination is a fascinating thing, and the mind will often see connections where there aren't any.
You have to keep things in context though.
We live in a modern western society where:
1. People who love freedom and the Constitution are deemed to be extremists.
2. Christians are painted out to be bigots and hatemongers.
3. Gun owners are vilified for claiming freedoms guaranteed in the country's founding documents.
4. Programs like 'Common Core' in the public schools seem more about indoctrination than education
5. Liberal media outlets have a free reign to speak their opinions; conservatives have to constantly struggle with being silenced
6. Government entities proudly tout their surveillance and tracking capabilities, as if to intimidate
7. Bureaucracies continually pass stricter and stricter regulations on the overburdened public
8. The Congress, President, and many local "representatives" increasingly ignore the wishes of their constituents
9. Our supposedly sovereign government is more and more suborned to a global agenda
10. Our borders are not only not secure, they are also downright porous.
How can anyone say our own government is not a threat to us?
So, what are the general public's expectations regarding this so called "transparency"?
Should the general public be privy to all that goes on at all levels of government? Should they be clued in to all decisions made, and be able to influence these decisions?
For me, it is hard to fathom that someone in a pretty well off, civilized western country would see a threat to themselves where their own government is concerned.
Not everything is an agenda. Not everything is a conspiracy.
The human imagination is a fascinating thing, and the mind will often see connections where there aren't any.
While I think the reaction to these exercises is overblown, I actually live in this country and would NEVER put anything nefarious past this administration. They are the antithesis of what this country stands for. I'm no conspiracy theorist at all but I've seen enough shit pulled by these neo-socialists that I don't trust a damn thing they say or do.
(before you criticize, read what I bolded; the rest is my opinion I am entitled to as an American citizen and am certainly not alone in that feeling)
Outlander Systems
03-27-15, 18:01
That doesn't fly here
You have to keep things in context though.
We live in a modern western society where:
1. People who love freedom and the Constitution are deemed to be extremists.
2. Christians are painted out to be bigots and hatemongers.
3. Gun owners are vilified for claiming freedoms guaranteed in the country's founding documents.
4. Programs like 'Common Core' in the public schools seem more about indoctrination than education
5. Liberal media outlets have a free reign to speak their opinions; conservatives have to constantly struggle with being silenced
6. Government entities proudly tout their surveillance and tracking capabilities, as if to intimidate
7. Bureaucracies continually pass stricter and stricter regulations on the overburdened public
8. The Congress, President, and many local "representatives" increasingly ignore the wishes of their constituents
9. Our supposedly sovereign government is more and more suborned to a global agenda
10. Our borders are not only not secure, they are also downright porous.
How can anyone say our own government is not a threat to us?
We have many of the same issues here as well; leftist bias in the media, people who voice other than mainstream opinions are ridiculed and labeled various negatives (depends on the topic), stupid and strict regulations and so on.
My point is that going from disagreeing with policies that are implemented by people with a different political outlook to thinking that it is an actual plot to control citizens through martial law is, in my mind, a stretch.
Both our nations are different from what they once were. I completely understand, and sympathize with the feeling that one's country is going to shit. I feel the same way here. I just don't think it is intentional, or part of an agenda. The people who ran my country from 2005 until 2013 believed that what they did what was right, even if many disagreed with what was being done. Politics is what it is.
I am "blessed" to live in a nation where most people are naive and unsuspecting, we have a welfare system that means you will always be taken care of, so most people do not care outside of their little bubble.
While I think the reaction to these exercises is overblown, I actually live in this country and would NEVER put anything nefarious past this administration. They are the antithesis of what this country stands for. I'm no conspiracy theorist at all but I've seen enough shit pulled by these neo-socialists that I don't trust a damn thing they say or do.
(before you criticize, read what I bolded; the rest is my opinion I am entitled to as an American citizen and am certainly not alone in that feeling)
I don't trust politicians either; they make their living on broken promises and ego trips.
It is all about perspective though, I think. What you (we) see as a dangerous course of action, or unneeded policy, can easily be seen as good choices by people who share that political outlook.
That is why I do not think it is rational to view the government as a threat, in that they are actively seeking to control it's citizens.
When Anders Behring Breivik carried out his attack, the first thought by some of the victims who escaped on the ferry was that this was a coup, fronted by Mossad and Israel. Granted, he was wearing a police uniform and they had heard that the police were coming to the Island, but it was still not a likely conclusion to reach unless there was an underlying mindset.
We have many of the same issues here as well; leftist bias in the media, people who voice other than mainstream opinions are ridiculed and labeled various negatives (depends on the topic), stupid and strict regulations and so on.
My point is that going from disagreeing with policies that are implemented by people with a different political outlook to thinking that it is an actual plot to control citizens through martial law is, in my mind, a stretch.
Both our nations are different from what they once were. I completely understand, and sympathize with the feeling that one's country is going to shit. I feel the same way here. I just don't think it is intentional, or part of an agenda. The people who ran my country from 2005 until 2013 believed that what they did what was right, even if many disagreed with what was being done. Politics is what it is.
I am "blessed" to live in a nation where most people are naive and unsuspecting, we have a welfare system that means you will always be taken care of, so most people do not care outside of their little bubble.
You sure you live in Norway? That sounds awfully familiar.
I don't trust politicians either; they make their living on broken promises and ego trips.
It is all about perspective though, I think. What you (we) see as a dangerous course of action, or unneeded policy, can easily be seen as good choices by people who share that political outlook.
That is why I do not think it is rational to view the government as a threat, in that they are actively seeking to control it's citizens.
When Anders Behring Breivik carried out his attack, the first thought by some of the victims who escaped on the ferry was that this was a coup, fronted by Mossad and Israel. Granted, he was wearing a police uniform and they had heard that the police were coming to the Island, but it was still not a likely conclusion to reach unless there was an underlying mindset.
I am not one who sees a boogeyman behind every government edict. I do, however, harbor a healthy distrust (not paranoia) of motives. ;)
I am not one who sees a boogeyman behind every government edict. I do, however, harbor a healthy distrust (not paranoia) of motives. ;)
I don't disagree.
Many politicians, although towing the party line is important, have a personal agenda as well. They want to succeed in pushing something through, to make their mark.
There are often way less than six degrees of separation between government and powerful businesses, and this can definitely influence policy.
The unfortunate thing in politics is that the non-BS, cut straight to the chase politicians do not last very long. While people might like what they say and stand for, they won't get the necessary support from their own party to get into an influential position.
MountainRaven
03-27-15, 20:38
So, what are the general public's expectations regarding this so called "transparency"?
Should the general public be privy to all that goes on at all levels of government? Should they be clued in to all decisions made, and be able to influence these decisions?
For me, it is hard to fathom that someone in a pretty well off, civilized western country would see a threat to themselves where their own government is concerned.
Not everything is an agenda. Not everything is a conspiracy.
The human imagination is a fascinating thing, and the mind will often see connections where there aren't any.
Stop being sensible.
That being said, I do believe that it says pretty negative things about the government of the United States that people readily believe such theories. It doesn't say much positive about the American people so readily believe such things, either.
It seems to me that most Americans - regardless of politics - seem to love believing that their side does not enjoy as much success as they should because of a massive, nefarious conspiracy by those who inhabit the other side.
Both sides see the other as a careless, powerful monolith that desires to destroy everything that makes this country great and impose their vision of ultra-orthodoxy on all - rounding up the opposition and sending them to death camps.
NCPatrolAR
03-27-15, 21:39
The attitudes and name calling stop now
...It seems to me that most Americans - regardless of politics - seem to love believing that their side does not enjoy as much success as they should because of a massive, nefarious conspiracy by those who inhabit the other side.
Both sides see the other as a careless, powerful monolith that desires to destroy everything that makes this country great and impose their vision of ultra-orthodoxy on all - rounding up the opposition and sending them to death camps.
The only thing you left out is that both sides see the other as mindless sheep. And on this point they're both right.
So, what are the general public's expectations regarding this so called "transparency"?
Should the general public be privy to all that goes on at all levels of government? Should they be clued in to all decisions made, and be able to influence these decisions?
For me, it is hard to fathom that someone in a pretty well off, civilized western country would see a threat to themselves where their own government is concerned.
Not everything is an agenda. Not everything is a conspiracy.
The human imagination is a fascinating thing, and the mind will often see connections where there aren't any.
Doc pretty much covered it. I don't think we need to know anything about what secrets we're keeping from foreign threats, or what secrets of theirs we have, nor should we know about the secrets we have on our "allies". However, when you want to run a military training op in the midst of the free American civilian population, you need to be VERY open about it.
As for the threat, the end result doesn't care whether it was done with the best of intentions or pure evil in the hearts of the perpetrators, people suffer as a result. Claiming some moral imperative when choosing to make one group suffer, in order to appease the desires of another is the road to hell. The American government has become exceedingly good at paving said road, regardless of which political party is in charge. :(
http://soldiersystems.net/2015/03/30/drop-the-crackpipe-and-take-off-the-tinfoil-hat-jade-helm-15-really-is-just-an-exercise/
By looking at the slides provided in this article, it seems I was spot on - the territorial designations are scenario specific.
As for not being open about it, who says that the military hasn't been? The brief described in the SoldierSys articel was PROVIDED to local government.
Here is the entire presentation:
http://disinfo.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Jade-Helm.pdf
Also, do you feel it is the responsibility of the government to inform people about military training drills?
That is not the way it works here, all activity is regulated by, and controlled by, the military itself. The Prime Minister and Defense Minister does not have anything to do with the day to day routine of the military.
The Prime Minister does not approve, or reject any peacetime military activity.
They might make an appearance during larger multi-national exercise, but that is about it.
Since I never had the pleasure of partnering with US forces in CONUS, do they normally go on FTX's on military training sites/federal land?
Doc Safari
03-30-15, 14:32
Once again, the thrust of this thread is that mistrust of the government has reached a point where the perception of this as a precursor to martial law has actually gotten the Pentagon to respond defensively.
The military is adding gasoline to the fires of paranoia that were already there.
It doesn't bode well for fostering more trust in the government.
sevenhelmet
03-30-15, 15:06
Since I never had the pleasure of partnering with US forces in CONUS, do they normally go on FTX's on military training sites/federal land?
Normally, yes. Not always, but it isn't always possible to do so. One's unit has to get from A to B, for example.
Outlander Systems
03-30-15, 17:15
http://soldiersystems.net/2015/03/30/drop-the-crackpipe-and-take-off-the-tinfoil-hat-jade-helm-15-really-is-just-an-exercise/
Also, do you feel it is the responsibility of the government to inform people about military training drills?
That is not the way it works here, all activity is regulated by, and controlled by, the military itself.
If the exercises take place in, or adjacent to, private property, then absolutely.
http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment3.html
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