View Full Version : Legal question about a weapon light
I understand the advantage that a WL provides in confirmation of a target. With the light being attached to the gun though doesn't that pose a legal problem when it is pointed at a target and activated?
Inkslinger
03-27-15, 22:06
What legal problem would that be?
Inkslinger
03-27-15, 22:11
If it's being pointed at a target it's being pointed for a reason. Walking out of your house and waving a gun around in your neighborhood, that's brandishing, and I don't think it will matter whether you have a light on it or not.
ETA
bran·dish
ˈbrandiSH/
verb
gerund or present participle: brandishing
wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.
synonyms:flourish, wave, shake, wield; More
swing, swish;
display, flaunt, show off
"brandishing a sword"
But if one points it at a target that turns out to not be a threat does that pose a legal issue?
Inkslinger
03-27-15, 22:30
But if one points it at a target that turns out to not be a threat does that pose a legal issue?
Possibly. Would you rather not have a light and have no ability to determine if it's a threat or not? That could cause you a bigger problem then pointing your weapon at something that doesn't need shot.
OK...so its not something to be concerned about. Thanks.
Chunky_Lover
03-27-15, 23:05
can pointing near someone be the same as pointing at them
get the right type of light beam pattern you could probably hold feet off to the side and still identity them
or make sure to blind them with the light, then they may not even know a weapon is attached all they see are spots
But if one points it at a target that turns out to not be a threat does that pose a legal issue?
You have stumbled onto one of the major criticisms of a weapon mounted light - that in many instances you are pointing a loaded gun at something you do not wish to destroy. That is a different problem for another thread.
For your problem, get a light bright enough they cannot see it is attached to the gun!
This discussion is why I have a hand held light and no pistol mounted light.
But....an AR is a different animal. Not exactly a situation where you can also carry a hand held light and be effective.
This is interesting. I don't know what to say to someone who worries more about a brandishing charge than the possibility of shooting their wife.
I'm thinking HD here.
Even still, I have trouble imagining how this is a practical concern.
Voodoo_Man
03-28-15, 03:56
Weapon mounted lights are legally acceptable since you are going to need to see, or discriminate rather, what your target is.
In an HD situation, if you are clearing your house with a weapon mounted light and you sweep someone that's not supposed to be there, thats reasonable and perfectly legal. If you are walking your dog outside and using your gun light for a flashlight, not reasonable.
BatteryOperated
03-28-15, 04:51
But if one points it at a target that turns out to not be a threat does that pose a legal issue?
If you mean in "as another person" that turns out not to be a threat, then possibly yes. You may want to check into your local or state laws concerning weapons handling. In WI, the firearm can be loaded or unloaded, and you could be charged with negligent handling of a firearm endangering the safety of others, which is a misdemeanor. The firearm will also be taken and destroyed as it was involved in the act of a crime. It does not matter if your actions were intentional or unintentional. If the person you are pointing at believes your intentions could cause them harm, and calls law enforcement personnel you may be arrested, or subpoenaed to court to account for your actions.
Inkslinger
03-28-15, 08:07
I guess I could see a potential problem if you're a person so on edge that you're pointing your gun at every shadow, noise, or person you encounter in the dark. If I'm in my home, it's only my wife and I, so I'm not concerned in that instance. If I'm out in a CCW situation there are many factors that would determine whether I pull my weapon or not. Situational awareness, environment, instincts, and voice commands will all play a factor in determining a potential threat to me. As mentioned different states have different laws. I imagine though if you can reasonably articulate why you thought the situation you were in warranted pointing your gun and illuminating a potential target, you most likely won't end up in jail.
This discussion is why I have a hand held light and no pistol mounted light.
This discussion is why I carry a handheld light in addition to a weapon mounted one.
If you mean in "as another person" that turns out not to be a threat, then possibly yes. You may want to check into your local or state laws concerning weapons handling. In WI, the firearm can be loaded or unloaded, and you could be charged with negligent handling of a firearm endangering the safety of others, which is a misdemeanor. The firearm will also be taken and destroyed as it was involved in the act of a crime. It does not matter if your actions were intentional or unintentional. If the person you are pointing at believes your intentions could cause them harm, and calls law enforcement personnel you may be arrested, or subpoenaed to court to account for your actions.
A possibility, but if your actions are based on your reasonable belief that you were in danger you can claim self defense under WI's self defense statute (939.48). Depending on a number of factors, this could play out in court, or wherever the incident took place. And that can determine how long it takes to get your gun back.
From legis.wi.gov (State Legislature's online annotated statutes), searched under "intentionally pointing":
Although intentionally pointing a firearm at another constitutes a violation of s. 941.20, under sub. (1) a person is privileged to point a gun at another person in self-defense if the person reasonably believes that the threat of force is necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference. State v. Watkins, 2002 WI 101, 255 Wis. 2d 265, 647 N.W.2d 244, 00-0064. -from statute 939.48 Self Defense
This discussion is why I carry a handheld light in addition to a weapon mounted one.
Sounds Perfectly reasonable to this Cat.
Inkslinger
03-28-15, 10:05
This discussion is why I carry a handheld light in addition to a weapon mounted one.
I agree and do as well. The OP was based around a WL only scenario, so that's what my thought process is based on.
I agree and do as well. The OP was based around a WL only scenario, so that's what my thought process is based on.
I think your earlier post was excellent.
I suppose my earlier post should read that, if I'm carrying a weapon mounted light, I carry a handheld one, too. No wml, I'm still carrying a handheld.
Inkslinger
03-28-15, 10:49
I think your earlier post was excellent.
I suppose my earlier post should read that, if I'm carrying a weapon mounted light, I carry a handheld one, too. No wml, I'm still carrying a handheld.
Thanks. I should also say I don't always carry a handheld, but I do always have a WML.
Thanks. I should also say I don't always carry a handheld, but I do always have a WML.
Personally, I think the lesson to take from this is that, no matter how you choose to carry it, you SHOULD have a light of some sort in your repertoire. Clearly identifying a person prior to discharging (or not discharging) should be a critical task, in my opinion.
Remember, you are responsible for every round you loose.
The big question is what prompted you to have your rifle with attached light out in the first place. If it was warranted, you should be good to go. If you are playing around with your rifle in your front yard, your probably going to jail or get shot
The big question is, why does every WML detractor default to the assumption that when you start carrying one, you are limited to using just that light for everything from then on?
BDSTactical
04-08-15, 14:12
In 2008 I had what I thought to be a residential break in at my home in Vista, CA. At app. 0200 I heard noises in my hallway and observed someone run past my bedroom door toward my sons room. I knew it was not my wife as she was in bed next to me. I grabbed my M9 with Streamlight TLR1 on it and advised my wife to get behind the bed and call 911. When I got to my sons room (he was still in a crib at that time), I found the door locked and could hear someone inside the room. I announced myself and told the person they had one chance only to open the door (I honestly cant remember exactly what I said, but there was no response). I kicked open the door and found my brother-in-laws best friend curled up on the floor. He had been out with my brother-in-law, gotten drunk and wondered in to the wrong house (we lived in a duplex).
I can tell you in no uncertain terms that if my weapon did not have a light on it, and I had not immediately been able to identify this person as someone I knew, he would have been shot. When the police arrived moments later I was commended on my ability to refrain from shooting this person and I remember very clearly the officer checking out the TLR-1 and thinking that it was a nice light that probably saved this guys life. About a year later I submitted a "story" to Streamlight complete with pictures and a copy of the police report and they sent me a crap load of free stuff including a TLR-2.
In 2008 I had what I thought to be a residential break in at my home in Vista, CA. At app. 0200 I heard noises in my hallway and observed someone run past my bedroom door toward my sons room. I knew it was not my wife as she was in bed next to me. I grabbed my M9 with Streamlight TLR1 on it and advised my wife to get behind the bed and call 911. When I got to my sons room (he was still in a crib at that time), I found the door locked and could hear someone inside the room. I announced myself and told the person they had one chance only to open the door (I honestly cant remember exactly what I said, but there was no response). I kicked open the door and found my brother-in-laws best friend curled up on the floor. He had been out with my brother-in-law, gotten drunk and wondered in to the wrong house (we lived in a duplex).
I can tell you in no uncertain terms that if my weapon did not have a light on it, and I had not immediately been able to identify this person as someone I knew, he would have been shot. When the police arrived moments later I was commended on my ability to refrain from shooting this person and I remember very clearly the officer checking out the TLR-1 and thinking that it was a nice light that probably saved this guys life. About a year later I submitted a "story" to Streamlight complete with pictures and a copy of the police report and they sent me a crap load of free stuff including a TLR-2.
Excellent Story.
Same reason why LEO's carry WML and separate lights as well.
Its always weird to me how some people think having a WML is a bad thing, that it would give your position away, etc. If properly used, a WML is an excellent tool.
My HD AR15 has a WML and sling, both are a must IMO for any long gun that serves that purpose.
Eurodriver
04-10-15, 03:57
Good story BDS.
This discussion is why I have a hand held light and no pistol mounted light.
But....an AR is a different animal. Not exactly a situation where you can also carry a hand held light and be effective.
Correct. If you are using an AR instead of a pistol that implies that you are going to or be a part of a known fight. Seems to me that no one is walking around with an AR in the street unless there is already a presumption that the environment is hostile. As a prosecutor i never once saw or heard of a case where someone was charged with brandishing an AR. Pistols-all the time.
The place to start a legal analysis is with the subject statute for your jurisdiction.
In Virginia, Va. Code § 18.2-282 says, in part, "A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured."
Notice that the statute has two parts: 1. holding (anywhere) to reasonably induce bare fear, and 2. holding in a public place to reasonably induce fear of shot/injury.
A loaded firearm, unloaded/broken firearm (whether capable of being fired or not), and toy firearm (any object similar in appearance) are all treated the same in part one. Does that continue into part two, or does part two only apply to firearms/weapons, i.e., the language regarding "similar in appearance" and "whether capable" does not apply in public places?
But there has to be "another" present. It would not be brandishing if a third party, not reasonably induced to fear, observed you alone searching your house or bushes around your house, the curtilage, with a WML.
How is a person reasonably induced to fear if they do not know the means by which the flashlight is shining in their eyes?
A "gun person" would argue that searching in the low ready with a WML illuminating a room or outdoors from light reflected off the floor or ground is an approved method/tactic, and therefore no reasonable person could be place if fear, and there is no reasonable fear of shot/injury from a person using the approved tactic. A non-gun person is likely to find that too fine of a distinction.
The code continues, "However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense." So, go ahead and reasonably induce fear if acting in self-defense.
The way to look for answers to some of these and other questions is to review any appellate opinions where courts have interpreted the language. I would almost bet there is at least one case where someone was convicted for threatening another person with a broken or toy gun.
Moose-Knuckle
04-17-15, 03:59
I always carry a E1L on my weak side for instances that I do not need a firearm.
I have a wml but I carry on my side a surefire e2d ultra led defense.
It is a Weapon Light. Not a flashlight. You should have both. They serve different purposes. If there is something to investigate in my house it isn't time for a flashlight, shoes or ear pro. It is time for my pistol and a weapon light.
It is a Weapon Light. Not a flashlight. You should have both. They serve different purposes. If there is something to investigate in my house it isn't time for a flashlight, shoes or ear pro. It is time for my pistol and a weapon light.
Because it's such an important point, it's a weapon light NOT a flashlight.
You have stumbled onto one of the major criticisms of a weapon mounted light - that in many instances you are pointing a loaded gun at something you do not wish to destroy. That is a different problem for another thread.
For your problem, get a light bright enough they cannot see it is attached to the gun!
At night, that's really any light. A friend and I went camping the other night, and were out foraging for firewood at night. We split up, and when grouping up again, shined our lights (handheld of course) at each other to test the theory, as it were, of "blinding someone with your light". Each of us reported only seeing a light and brilliant halo. Unless they have a light, too, you're going to show them a light and nothing else, basically, if no ambient light is present. Beware though, lights attract bullets.
In 2008 I had what I thought to be a residential break in at my home in Vista, CA. At app. 0200 I heard noises in my hallway and observed someone run past my bedroom door toward my sons room. I knew it was not my wife as she was in bed next to me. I grabbed my M9 with Streamlight TLR1 on it and advised my wife to get behind the bed and call 911. When I got to my sons room (he was still in a crib at that time), I found the door locked and could hear someone inside the room. I announced myself and told the person they had one chance only to open the door (I honestly cant remember exactly what I said, but there was no response). I kicked open the door and found my brother-in-laws best friend curled up on the floor. He had been out with my brother-in-law, gotten drunk and wondered in to the wrong house (we lived in a duplex).
I can tell you in no uncertain terms that if my weapon did not have a light on it, and I had not immediately been able to identify this person as someone I knew, he would have been shot. When the police arrived moments later I was commended on my ability to refrain from shooting this person and I remember very clearly the officer checking out the TLR-1 and thinking that it was a nice light that probably saved this guys life. About a year later I submitted a "story" to Streamlight complete with pictures and a copy of the police report and they sent me a crap load of free stuff including a TLR-2.
Great story!
As sobering as it is, I would like to present another story, thankfully not a personal one:
Old Forge, NY -- A Rochester man staying in a motel in Old Forge shot and killed his son early this morning thinking his son was an intruder, state police said today.
Michael Leach, 59, an officer with the Parry Police Department in Wyoming County, called 911 at 12:51 a.m. from the Clark Beach Motel to say that he just shot someone he thought was an intruder, troopers said.
Instead of an intruder, Leach shot and killed his son, Matthew S. Leach, 37, of 23 S. Heppler St., Rochester, troopers said.
Leach used his department-issued .45-caliber Glock handgun in the shooting, troopers said. He was taken to St. Luke's Hospital, Utica, after the shooting for what troopers described as a "medical issue."
Troopers are continuing to investigate the shooting.
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2012/07/rochester_man_shoots_and_kills.html
Might a WML have prevented this tragedy? Maybe so.
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