View Full Version : Terrorists kill 15+ in Kenya
End well this will not:
Gunmen storm Kenya university; at least 15 dead, many hostages feared
Al-Shabab gunmen have attacked a college campus in the town of Garissa in northeast Kenya, shooting indiscriminately in dormitories and killing at least 15 people and wounding 65 others, police said. Kenya's National Disaster Operation Centre added that 280 of 815 students had been accounted for, with efforts under way to track the others.
Witnesses said explosions and heavy gunfire rocked Garissa University College early on Thursday. Ambulances were seen driving injured students to local hospitals.
The attackers were holding an “unknown number of student hostages,” the Kenya Red Cross said in a statement. Some “50 students have been safely freed,” the organization said.
Terrified students streamed out of buildings, some men shirtless, as arriving police officers took cover, witnesses said. Even as security forces cornered the gunmen in a dorm where they could be holding hostages, survivors described a harrowing scene, where people were mercilessly gunned down and bullets whistled through the air as they ran for their lives.
The Kenya National Disaster Operation Centre said on its Twitter feed that “65 have been received by the Garissa Level 5 Hospital from the #GarissaAttack." The number of wounded has been escalating steadily throughout the event.
Most of the wounded had been hit by gunfire and four were in a critical condition, the center tweeted, and four had been airlifted to Nairobi for treatment, it said.
Cont:
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/4/2/students-held-hostage-in-kenya-university-attack.html
70 plus killed according to FOX now.
70 plus killed according to FOX now.
Wow. Damn, gives new meaning to the "15+" title of the thread. :(
skijunkie55
04-02-15, 11:51
AH yes... the religion of peace is evangelizing again.
Averageman
04-02-15, 14:08
These guys are going bat-shit Kra Kra, Iran is negotiating a nuke and were up in arms about some law in Indiana that wont effect 99.9% of us in our lifetimes.
Inkslinger
04-02-15, 14:21
The latest report on Drudge says 147 killed.
skijunkie55
04-02-15, 14:22
These guys are going bat-shit Kra Kra, Iran is negotiating a nuke and were up in arms about some law in Indiana that wont effect 99.9% of us in our lifetimes.
I already did my American duty and bought more ammo this week... Something's we can control, some we just sit and yell at a computer screen about.
These guys are going bat-shit Kra Kra, Iran is negotiating a nuke and were up in arms about some law in Indiana that wont effect 99.9% of us in our lifetimes.
Don't forget the entire town of Ferguson held hostage because a police officer shot a criminal who was attacking him.
Poor Kenya, in 2013 there was the West Gate Mall attack, now this school. Then their son from Washington, DC will come for a home visit. (I kid, I kid).
Moose-Knuckle
04-02-15, 16:39
Poor Kenya, in 2013 there was the West Gate Mall attack, now this school. Then their son from Washington, DC will come for a home visit. (I kid, I kid).
You have to wonder about the timing . . .
Moose-Knuckle
04-02-15, 16:40
Couldn't help but notice in one article that the Islamic gunmen specifically targeted Christian students. I see this is no big deal to the MSM per their SOPs just more of Barry's "random acts of violence".
Couldn't help but notice in one article that the Islamic gunmen specifically targeted Christian students. I see this is no big deal to the MSM per their SOPs just more of Barry's "random acts of violence".
Maybe we could all the gays here to go over and fight for Isis in their war on Christianity?
Moose-Knuckle
04-02-15, 17:42
Maybe we could all the gays here to go over and fight for Isis in their war on Christianity?
I think the selling point would be to the treatment of homosexuals by ISIS and Islam in general.
BoringGuy45
04-02-15, 21:27
Couldn't help but notice in one article that the Islamic gunmen specifically targeted Christian students. I see this is no big deal to the MSM per their SOPs just more of Barry's "random acts of violence".
He'll probably insist, as always, that Islam is a peaceful religion so there's no way these people can really be called "Islamic terrorists", because it is logically impossible for there to be terrorists in this 100% peaceful religion. Besides, Christians have done FAR worse to Muslims, so they're the real threat to peace.
I think the selling point would be to the treatment of homosexuals by ISIS and Islam in general.
That doesn't work. They'll just throw a red herring. You say ISIS slaughters homosexuals, they'll point out that some Christians refuse to bake wedding cakes for gay weddings, and that's just as bad, if not worse, than anything ISIS does. You try to argue back, and the response is "ONE MORE WORD OUT OF YOU, AND I WILL CALL YOU A RACIST HOMOPHOBE!!!!"
This isn't surprising. When I was in Mombasa I saw a lot of persons of middle eastern decent as well as ones that had the Somali look. When I asked the local constabulary about the new villas and construction he told me that it was the influx of pirate money. The gov't turns their eye away from it because it provides jobs and supports the economy.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-03-15, 00:00
I'm willing to not call it a Muslim problem as long as they admit that it will only be solved by Muslims. It's not a Muslim problem, but needs a Muslim solution.
I'm willing to not call it a Muslim problem as long as they admit that it will only be solved by Muslims. It's not a Muslim problem, but needs a Muslim solution.
A Muslim solution for the world's Islamists problem makes about as much sense as a German solution to Nazism.
People may close their eyes real tight, click their heels three times, and wish it all away. However, Islamist ideology isn't going away and mainstream Muslims feed the problem, not diminish it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-03-15, 00:30
A Muslim solution for the world's Islamists problem makes about as much sense as a German solution to Nazism.
People may close their eyes real tight, click their heels three times, and wish it all away. However, Islamist ideology isn't going away and mainstream Muslims feed the problem, not diminish it.
We aren't willing to kill enough of them to solve the problem. The only way this is going to end is if enough less radical muslims kill the crazier muslims. When they get bled dry in a Thirty Years War kind of way and they get tired of the dying, that's when it ends. In that way, ironically, BHO's lack of engagement brings out the repressed violence in the ME. That isn't his actually strategy, but his lack of engagement and willingness to engage ground troops leads to the outcome.
Moose-Knuckle
04-03-15, 04:13
That doesn't work. They'll just throw a red herring. You say ISIS slaughters homosexuals, they'll point out that some Christians refuse to bake wedding cakes for gay weddings, and that's just as bad, if not worse, than anything ISIS does. You try to argue back, and the response is "ONE MORE WORD OUT OF YOU, AND I WILL CALL YOU A RACIST HOMOPHOBE!!!!"
This would be hilarious if it were not true . . .
This isn't surprising. When I was in Mombasa I saw a lot of persons of middle eastern decent as well as ones that had the Somali look. When I asked the local constabulary about the new villas and construction he told me that it was the influx of pirate money. The gov't turns their eye away from it because it provides jobs and supports the economy.
Kenyans turn a blind eye to easy money? Say it aint so! Ugh. RIP kids.
That doesn't work. They'll just throw a red herring. You say ISIS slaughters homosexuals, they'll point out that some Christians refuse to bake wedding cakes for gay weddings, and that's just as bad, if not worse, than anything ISIS does. You try to argue back, and the response is "ONE MORE WORD OUT OF YOU, AND I WILL CALL YOU A RACIST HOMOPHOBE!!!!"
Do we really need to go there in this thread? Is there not an existing thread thread for that topic? All caps, really?
BoringGuy45
04-03-15, 09:13
Do we really need to go there in this thread? Is there not an existing thread thread for that topic? All caps, really?
My point was that when you point out their ridiculousness and they can't seem to counter, they go for personal attacks, usually in the form of bigotry accusations. My all caps was a humorous attempt at portraying some far left hipster-type losing their cool when they realized they had been outwitted. ;)
We aren't willing to kill enough of them to solve the problem. The only way this is going to end is if enough less radical muslims kill the crazier muslims. When they get bled dry in a Thirty Years War kind of way and they get tired of the dying, that's when it ends. In that way, ironically, BHO's lack of engagement brings out the repressed violence in the ME. That isn't his actually strategy, but his lack of engagement and willingness to engage ground troops leads to the outcome.
Where are these less crazy Muslims? Jordan? Egypt? Saudi Arabia?
The number of moderates is easily eclipsed by the number of militant Islamists, political Islamists, and conservative/orthodox Muslims. Keep in mind that these three groups that I mentioned collectively make up over 2/3 of the Muslim population, and none of those groups play nice in the global sandbox.
What we are seeing in the ME and North Africa are battle lines being drawn between militant Shiite and Sunni Islamists. There is no "less crazy," just flavors of batshit. As soon as they are done with each other, they will turn their attention toward the West. The worst case senario is if Iran emerges as the dominant power in the ME with a nuclear capability. That dramatically raises the risk of one or more of our cities going from 15 to 10,000 degrees C in less than a second.
I fundamentally disagree with the notion that we can't kill enough of them to make a difference. We've slaughtered millions of German's, Japs, et al in living memory. Our ability to rinse and repeat has only gotten better with time and technology.
Averageman
04-03-15, 10:07
I'm not sure why we aren't cooking up a couple dozen Desert Storm era MOAB's and fixing positions with drones and dropping them in ?
I have no problem with wholesale slaughter or using assassination to take out the leaders at home with the wife and kids.
We seem to lack the political back bone to drop a hammer in a ruthless manner and would rather send a bunch of young men in to go door to door dying in order as to not piss off some Arabs, Persians, or Islamic Africans.
Yes we have gotten much better with drones, but I think we should be using sledgehammers rather than scalpels some times. They seem to understand it a bit better.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-03-15, 11:59
Where are these less crazy Muslims? Jordan? Egypt? Saudi Arabia? Jordan is a pretty good place to start. King Abdullah has a nice 2:1 deal going with ISIS. Jordanians have machine gunned Palestinians when they got out of hand. I'll put them firmly in the 'less crazy column'. The less crazy column gains beef as more crazies are killed.
The number of moderates is easily eclipsed by the number of militant Islamists, political Islamists, and conservative/orthodox Muslims. Keep in mind that these three groups that I mentioned collectively make up over 2/3 of the Muslim population, and none of those groups play nice in the global sandbox.
What we are seeing in the ME and North Africa are battle lines being drawn between militant Shiite and Sunni Islamists. There is no "less crazy," just flavors of batshit. As soon as they are done with each other, they will turn their attention toward the West. The worst case senario is if Iran emerges as the dominant power in the ME with a nuclear capability. That dramatically raises the risk of one or more of our cities going from 15 to 10,000 degrees C in less than a second.
I fundamentally disagree with the notion that we can't kill enough of them to make a difference. We've slaughtered millions of German's, Japs, et al in living memory. Our ability to rinse and repeat has only gotten better with time and technology.
We have the ability to end this problem by supper time tonight. Nuke, chem, carpet bombing- all high effective and pretty much off the table. It isn't that we don't have the capability- it's that we lack the will. If ISIS takes over a city, you give the people 48 hours to overthrow them or you carpet bomb the city just like we did to the occupied countries in WWII. When we are willing to use a level of violence that would make most of us puke, that's when we start to change the balance of power.
We have the ability to end this problem by supper time tonight. Nuke, chem, carpet bombing- all high effective and pretty much off the table. It isn't that we don't have the capability- it's that we lack the will. If ISIS takes over a city, you give the people 48 hours to overthrow them or you carpet bomb the city just like we did to the occupied countries in WWII. When we are willing to use a level of violence that would make most of us puke, that's when we start to change the balance of power.
Agreed
We have the ability to end this problem by supper time tonight. Nuke, chem, carpet bombing- all high effective and pretty much off the table. It isn't that we don't have the capability- it's that we lack the will. If ISIS takes over a city, you give the people 48 hours to overthrow them or you carpet bomb the city just like we did to the occupied countries in WWII. When we are willing to use a level of violence that would make most of us puke, that's when we start to change the balance of power.
This would work. It would put fewer of our military personnel at risk, which is what should be strongly considered when contemplating military solutions to a problem like this.
We have the ability to end this problem by supper time tonight. Nuke, chem, carpet bombing- all high effective and pretty much off the table. It isn't that we don't have the capability- it's that we lack the will. If ISIS takes over a city, you give the people 48 hours to overthrow them or you carpet bomb the city just like we did to the occupied countries in WWII. When we are willing to use a level of violence that would make most of us puke, that's when we start to change the balance of power.
I'd prefer the opposite approach. Continue to reduce our need for their oil, let the savages fight it out 'till they are back to the stone age. Those who learn to play nice, get to get trade and business with us, and the others can be isolated and grind themselves down to begging for assistance once the $$$ tit has dried up. We don't seem to jump into military options in Africa as we don't have essential national interests. If you're country is known to produce radicalized animals, you're on total no travel no fly, no sending your kids to school here, etc status until you get them under control or dead. Freakin' 911 dirt bags were mostly Saudi's. What did we do to the Saudis after 911? Shuttled them in private US airplanes to safety I recall. Way too much oil $$ influence there to make a big deal of the society that produced those creatures it seemed. OBL? None of his family or other Saudis new where he was hiding? I got that Bridge in Brooklyn to sell too.
It seems every time we go in and "solve" a problem, we just spread the cancer around some more as what we took out gets replaced by something even worse. Never should have gone to Iraq, but that's another topic I suppose. Had we gone there with the troop levels Shinseki at co (vs ruining his career due to having the nerve to tell them they needed a much larger force) recommended to not just win but keep the place from melt down, perhaps it would have gone far better. Total support for SOF directing precision bombing and working with the locals, etc in Afgan, but thought at the time, and only more so now, Iraq was a bad idea.
You want Democracy, Freedom, and Liberty, you earn it the hard way as everyone else did. Trying to foist it on people by force, people who are 1000 years behind the west socially and culturally gets you, well, what we have now in ISIS and other vile creatures. We in the west just can't seem to deal with the fact in that area of the world, only tyrants can seem to keep the place from going off the rails. Saddam was an angel compared to some of what's out there and spreading.
But, I'm with you and others on this: if in, go all in and make it very clear what happens to your place and people when you poke the giant. Stupid should hurt.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-03-15, 19:31
I saw a report that a lot of the victims were shot in the back of the head. We try not to kill civilians and they go out of their way to kill them.
I'd prefer the opposite approach. Continue to reduce our need for their oil, let the savages fight it out 'till they are back to the stone age. The problem is that sooner or later the savages will hit us with a WMD. The only option is to ensure they never obtain WMD-capability. That means having an overt and covert presence in the ME, working with those ME nations that are least savage-like.Those who learn to play nice, get to get trade and business with us, and the others can be isolated and grind themselves down to begging for assistance once the $$$ tit has dried up. We don't seem to jump into military options in Africa as we don't have essential national interests. If you're country is known to produce radicalized animals, you're on total no travel no fly, no sending your kids to school here, etc status until you get them under control or dead. Freakin' 911 dirt bags were mostly Saudi's. What did we do to the Saudis after 911? Shuttled them in private US airplanes to safety I recall. Way too much oil $$ influence there to make a big deal of the society that produced those creatures it seemed. OBL? None of his family or other Saudis new where he was hiding? I got that Bridge in Brooklyn to sell too.
It seems every time we go in and "solve" a problem, we just spread the cancer around some more as what we took out gets replaced by something even worse. Never should have gone to Iraq, but that's another topic I suppose. Had we gone there with the troop levels Shinseki at co (vs ruining his career due to having the nerve to tell them they needed a much larger force) recommended to not just win but keep the place from melt down, perhaps it would have gone far better. Total support for SOF directing precision bombing and working with the locals, etc in Afgan, but thought at the time, and only more so now, Iraq was a bad idea.
You want Democracy, Freedom, and Liberty, you earn it the hard way as everyone else did. Trying to foist it on people by force, people who are 1000 years behind the west socially and culturally gets you, well, what we have now in ISIS and other vile creatures. We in the west just can't seem to deal with the fact in that area of the world, only tyrants can seem to keep the place from going off the rails. Saddam was an angel compared to some of what's out there and spreading.
But, I'm with you and others on this: if in, go all in and make it very clear what happens to your place and people when you poke the giant. Stupid should hurt.
Reply in bold
We have the ability to end this problem by supper time tonight. Nuke, chem, carpet bombing- all high effective and pretty much off the table. It isn't that we don't have the capability- it's that we lack the will. If ISIS takes over a city, you give the people 48 hours to overthrow them or you carpet bomb the city just like we did to the occupied countries in WWII. When we are willing to use a level of violence that would make most of us puke, that's when we start to change the balance of power.
At this time, there is no need to use WMDs in the ME, since our conventional bombs are plenty effective. We do not, however, drop enough of them on the savages...
We should be tracking these savages and cautiously supporting the ME countries that are fighting them.
If these savages attack a target in CONUS, we should pound them with Thor's hammer and have only enough boots on the ground to ID targets and confirm they were destroyed.
We should be tracking these savages and cautiously supporting the ME countries that are fighting them.
If these savages attack a target in CONUS, we should pound them with Thor's hammer and have only enough boots on the ground to ID targets and confirm they were destroyed.
The savages have threatened to attack CONUS targets, and OCONUS US allies. That alone, is a good reason to carpet bomb their cities. We know what they're capable of doing to those who refuse to share their ideology. Their culture is one of death and cruelty. Like begets like.
Would anyone here be surprised that some day in the future, probably in the Winter at Christmas since heavy clothing wouldn't draw attention, that multiple terrorists detonate backpack bombs filled with nails and other shrapnel in Wal-Marts all over the Country. This would be coordinated to happen at the same time. How can you fight something like that? Maximum terror at one of our biggest Christian holidays. Maybe I'm getting too old but I say profile the Hell out of every raghead in this Country and shut down emigration of that ilk.
The savages have threatened to attack CONUS targets, and OCONUS US allies. That alone, is a good reason to carpet bomb their cities. We know what they're capable of doing to those who refuse to share their ideology. Their culture is one of death and cruelty. Like begets like.
Okay I have tried to avoid these discussions lately but after the last few pages of comments I have a few questions. Particularly where this thread is based on the attack in Kenya.
For those who suggest we nuke the savages, I am curious where exactly we are going to drop these nukes. Outside of Iran, there seems to be a serious lack of defined borders. Many of the decision makers, planners, and movers and shakers of these organizations live within the borders of our allies. They exist in the underground and take careful steps to remain distant from the verifiable locations of the legitimate mil targets. You can nuke anything outside of our allies' borders and still do little if anything to the capability of a terror network to carry out international insurgency. And before we go into deciding which of our allies is going to be collateral damage in our nuclear middle finger to the world, understand that our using any type of nuclear or similar weapon will likely lead to a few retaliatory warheads landing in our back yard. Hey, acceptable loss right? Except that is a pretty high risk to take on when we haven't been victim of any successful terror attack in almost 14 years. We would be accepting a very high death toll on Americans ICONUS as a preventive measure for something that's incurred almost no death toll in the US since 9/11.
If instead we go the carpet bombing route as mentioned, bombing the cities of the savages, again...where are we bombing? Besides Syria having a few known areas under ISIL control (and it's arguably in our best interest to let Assad's forces keep them occupied in the fight there), where do we know of a collective group of terrorists that would have a significant impact on the network's ability to continue operations if we remove them? If our plan is to carpet bomb any location which houses a terror cell operative of some sort, we will have made all terror networks more capable of causing fear and killing innocents than they ever could have hoped. So I'm not against the idea of using ordnance instead of boots on the ground. I just haven't heard where that would be a good plan and have any real effect. I know, the devil's in the details.
I agree with the comment I quoted here if only because 7.62NATO stated "we don't need to use WMDs in the ME". No, we dont, and if we had it would have done dick to prevent the attack in Kenya. Because not only is Kenya one of the most cooperative allied nations we have in Africa, it's also...not in the ME. Its not in Somalia either, and if ISIS has any presence in Kenya it's not one of significace. I mean we could nuke Kenya as has been suggested, but that would do more harm than good.
And while I don't know why I'm actually giving this idea any thought, there is no similarity in any way to the reasons Kenya was attacked and the so called attack on Christianity from the icky gays in the American Midwest. Mostly because Christianity, and likely Americans, were not the intended targets in this attack. This was likely an attempt to use fear to end the cooperation and partnership between Kenya and the western forces and commerce they host. I'll avoid the irony in the notion that the Gay Agenda is somehow more like the Muslim extremists than the American Christians who insist to dictate what behavior is acceptable in their religious law.
Would anyone here be surprised that some day in the future, probably in the Winter at Christmas since heavy clothing wouldn't draw attention, that multiple terrorists detonate backpack bombs filled with nails and other shrapnel in Wal-Marts all over the Country. This would be coordinated to happen at the same time. How can you fight something like that? Maximum terror at one of our biggest Christian holidays. Maybe I'm getting too old but I say profile the Hell out of every raghead in this Country and shut down emigration of that ilk.
There's a few better ways to deliver something like that into a store like Walmart. They would be amateurs to use suicide vests in such a permissive environment.
And profiling rag heads would work out super great until you have people who can't tell the difference between an Arab and someone from India...or Brazil. I'm Hispanic and I can't believe how many other ethnicities I've been assumed to be. So we might as well open up the internment camps and round up any brownish Americans or, if we're somehow capable of doing so, just the Arab ones. That really put the Japanese empire to a screeching halt when we did it back in WW2 right?
Of course that won't matter because there's no shortage of non-Arab supporters and willing participants who could slip through the profiling measures. So maybe we'll just forbid anyone from going to walmart. Or imprison everyone in the US because they could look like a potential terrorist of an unknown origin in the potential future.
Or, we could understand that there will always be a risk. There is no way to reduce the freedoms of some to guarantee the safety of another. If there is intent, there is a means to be successful. The only thing that has kept such an incident from happening so far is that nobody has tried.
SOW, this is an emotional venting session, not a place where we use logic and facts to put forth well-supported arguments! I mean if we wanted realistic and feasible solutions, would we really be arguing over the internet?
(But seriously though, keep posting intelligent discussion points.)
The Israelis do a very good job of profiling, and keeping tabs on potential terrorists and sympathizers. El AL does a good job of profiling passengers before and during boarding of their commercial aircraft. Instead, we single out Catholic Nuns and 15 year old blonde, blue-eyed High School Sophomores for TSA extra pat-downs and violations. We still haven't become Sweden or France, filled with 3rd World refugees who harbor an 8th Century mentality. Keep them out and keep tabs on the ones who are here.
SOW 0331, I live in a State with a Spanish population which has been here for 400 years. These people are of direct descent from the Spanish Conquistadors. Many are blue eyed, green eyed and even red hair. It's an insult to call them Mexican, which they insist they are not. These are fighting words to call them Mexican. You can't tell these people from any other Anglo, but they are definitely an ethnic group. My ranch foreman is a descendent from a family who came from Castile Spain in the 1740s via Mexico City and an expedition going north.
We have the capacity to figure out who wants to do us harm in this Country. Look at the three women back east who are ISIS sympathizers and planned some kind of domestic attacks. Like it or not, our Intel including the NSA, FBI and other organizations are working overtime to protect us.
We have the capacity to figure out who wants to do us harm in this Country.
I believe that compared to 40 years ago, we have a very limited capability to do this.
Moose-Knuckle
04-05-15, 00:04
The Israelis do a very good job of profiling, and keeping tabs on potential terrorists and sympathizers. El AL does a good job of profiling passengers before and during boarding of their commercial aircraft. Instead, we single out Catholic Nuns and 15 year old blonde, blue-eyed High School Sophomores for TSA extra pat-downs and violations. We still haven't become Sweden or France, filled with 3rd World refugees who harbor an 8th Century mentality. Keep them out and keep tabs on the ones who are here.
SOW 0331, I live in a State with a Spanish population which has been here for 400 years. These people are of direct descent from the Spanish Conquistadors. Many are blue eyed, green eyed and even red hair. It's an insult to call them Mexican, which they insist they are not. These are fighting words to call them Mexican. You can't tell these people from any other Anglo, but they are definitely an ethnic group. My ranch foreman is a descendent from a family who came from Castile Spain in the 1740s via Mexico City and an expedition going north.
We have the capacity to figure out who wants to do us harm in this Country. Look at the three women back east who are ISIS sympathizers and planned some kind of domestic attacks. Like it or not, our Intel including the NSA, FBI and other organizations are working overtime to protect us.
Spot on.
With the NSA and various other alphabets who violate We the People's privacy 24/7 you would think they would have something. While the TSA goons molest 90 year old women with diapers and toddlers for IED's they give burqa Betty a pass in the name of political correctness. How about those Islam enclaves across CONUS where they train with unregistered automatic weapons?
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-05-15, 00:09
And while I don't know why I'm actually giving this idea any thought, there is no similarity in any way to the reasons Kenya was attacked and the so called attack on Christianity from the icky gays in the American Midwest. Mostly because Christianity, and likely Americans, were not the intended targets in this attack. This was likely an attempt to use fear to end the cooperation and partnership between Kenya and the western forces and commerce they host. I'll avoid the irony in the notion that the Gay Agenda is somehow more like the Muslim extremists than the American Christians who insist to dictate what behavior is acceptable in their religious law.
That makes two of us.....
I've read this four times and I'm still trying to parse what exactly the relevant tie in is.
How about those Islam enclaves across CONUS where they train with unregistered automatic weapons?
Maybe they just like exercising their 2nd Amendment rights? I mean, we look really scary to a bunch of people in this country always training with firearms and saying phrases like "molon labe". Should this country respect the rights of some but not others only because their religion?
I mean if they actually had evidence of unregistered MGs they wouldn't get a pass because they're Muslim.
Hm. What if my religion states in its commandments that thou shalt own a machine gun and thou shalt practice with it weekly? I wonder if it could get a religious exemption to the Hughes Amendment.
yes they get a pass !
just like they get a pass for not baking cakes for gays :)
they get a pass for being racist and abusive toward women gays etc...
they get special privileges prayer times in public schools and special wash rooms made for them etc...
also with quite a bit of KNOWN illegal people and illegal weapons in those camps which has been proven they know about these they still do nothing under the OH we watch them and we know they have illegal weapons and people but we want to see what else they do !
how did that work out for the Boston bombing ! when we were told about terrorists etc...
saying they are just exercising there 2nd does not hold water
and if any group is saying death to Americans and we plan on killing you then maybe they should be investigated no matter what color of skin or religion they are which is what these muslim groups are on record as saying many times in there propaganda
and yes when they know a person travels to a terrorist country for 6 months then comes back straight to those camps YES they should go investigate it !
they are fine raiding folks homes over nothing with full swat teams but never a peep about these folks !
but yet when the gov put out papers about terrorist to watch for those folks were not included only tea party folks or bumper stickers with a congress persons name were to be watched
Maybe they just like exercising their 2nd Amendment rights? I mean, we look really scary to a bunch of people in this country always training with firearms and saying phrases like "molon labe". Should this country respect the rights of some but not others only because their religion?
I mean if they actually had evidence of unregistered MGs they wouldn't get a pass because they're Muslim.
Hm. What if my religion states in its commandments that thou shalt own a machine gun and thou shalt practice with it weekly? I wonder if it could get a religious exemption to the Hughes Amendment.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-05-15, 02:37
can we all chip in and get honu a keyboard with a capslk key. this ee cumming thing isn't working for me
i just pray to allah that he doesn't have a dual monitor set up and only one hand free as he surfs us and something else in a private browser window
Moose-Knuckle
04-05-15, 03:09
Maybe they just like exercising their 2nd Amendment rights?
So because they are not white, from another country, and are Muslim they don't have to adhere to the NFA?
I mean, we look really scary to a bunch of people in this country always training with firearms and saying phrases like "molon labe". Should this country respect the rights of some but not others only because their religion?
I mean if they actually had evidence of unregistered MGs they wouldn't get a pass because they're Muslim.
Hm. What if my religion states in its commandments that thou shalt own a machine gun and thou shalt practice with it weekly? I wonder if it could get a religious exemption to the Hughes Amendment.
Oh that's right I forgot the DOJ/FBI/BATFE only go after white "domestic terrorists"; Ruby Ridge, Waco, that group in GA, so on and so forth.
hahahahah actually :)
can we all chip in and get honu a keyboard with a capslk key. this ee cumming thing isn't working for me
i just pray to allah that he doesn't have a dual monitor set up and only one hand free as he surfs us and something else in a private browser window
vicious_cb
04-05-15, 04:24
Poor Kenya, in 2013 there was the West Gate Mall attack, now this school. Then their son from Washington, DC will come for a home visit. (I kid, I kid).
Maybe they should have ramped up their domestic security and soft target protection procedures. I know Mumbai had a massive security overhaul after 2008.
I believe that compared to 40 years ago, we have a very limited capability to do this.
I think our capacity is better, but our will is what has been reduced. The fact is that prior to 9/11, the terrorists here were on the radar of several agencies, but due to firewalls and turf warfare between these agencies, nothing decisive happened in time. If we don't have the will to start targeting and taking action against potential threats in CONUS, then we are screwed. It also starts by shutting down our loose immigration rules and let's get selective on who we let in.
Okay I have tried to avoid these discussions lately but after the last few pages of comments I have a few questions. Particularly where this thread is based on the attack in Kenya.
For those who suggest we nuke the savages, I am curious where exactly we are going to drop these nukes. Outside of Iran, there seems to be a serious lack of defined borders. Many of the decision makers, planners, and movers and shakers of these organizations live within the borders of our allies. They exist in the underground and take careful steps to remain distant from the verifiable locations of the legitimate mil targets. You can nuke anything outside of our allies' borders and still do little if anything to the capability of a terror network to carry out international insurgency. And before we go into deciding which of our allies is going to be collateral damage in our nuclear middle finger to the world, understand that our using any type of nuclear or similar weapon will likely lead to a few retaliatory warheads landing in our back yard. Hey, acceptable loss right? Except that is a pretty high risk to take on when we haven't been victim of any successful terror attack in almost 14 years. We would be accepting a very high death toll on Americans ICONUS as a preventive measure for something that's incurred almost no death toll in the US since 9/11.
If instead we go the carpet bombing route as mentioned, bombing the cities of the savages, again...where are we bombing? Besides Syria having a few known areas under ISIL control (and it's arguably in our best interest to let Assad's forces keep them occupied in the fight there), where do we know of a collective group of terrorists that would have a significant impact on the network's ability to continue operations if we remove them? If our plan is to carpet bomb any location which houses a terror cell operative of some sort, we will have made all terror networks more capable of causing fear and killing innocents than they ever could have hoped. So I'm not against the idea of using ordnance instead of boots on the ground. I just haven't heard where that would be a good plan and have any real effect. I know, the devil's in the details.
I agree with the comment I quoted here if only because 7.62NATO stated "we don't need to use WMDs in the ME". No, we dont, and if we had it would have done dick to prevent the attack in Kenya. Because not only is Kenya one of the most cooperative allied nations we have in Africa, it's also...not in the ME. Its not in Somalia either, and if ISIS has any presence in Kenya it's not one of significace. I mean we could nuke Kenya as has been suggested, but that would do more harm than good.
And while I don't know why I'm actually giving this idea any thought, there is no similarity in any way to the reasons Kenya was attacked and the so called attack on Christianity from the icky gays in the American Midwest. Mostly because Christianity, and likely Americans, were not the intended targets in this attack. This was likely an attempt to use fear to end the cooperation and partnership between Kenya and the western forces and commerce they host. I'll avoid the irony in the notion that the Gay Agenda is somehow more like the Muslim extremists than the American Christians who insist to dictate what behavior is acceptable in their religious law.
Christianity is under attack on multiple fronts. While the gay front in America is not ISIS or Al-Shabaab, they are actively attempting to tear down the Christian moral underpinning of this country. And to state that Christianity was not the target in the Kenya attack is ignorant, at best. Muslim extremists target Christians for their faith alone. Those perpetrating the genocide of Christians have one goal alone: Extinction of Christianity. May they burn in hell for all eternity, for they have already lost the war.
I think our capacity is better, but our will is what has been reduced. The fact is that prior to 9/11, the terrorists here were on the radar of several agencies, but due to firewalls and turf warfare between these agencies, nothing decisive happened in time. If we don't have the will to start targeting and taking action against potential threats in CONUS, then we are screwed. It also starts by shutting down our loose immigration rules and let's get selective on who we let in.
If we have re-established our human intelligence network in the past 10-15 years, then that sounds promising. If we are merely more technically capable than in years past, I still have concerns about our capabilities.
There is no question our political leadership does not have the will to take decisive action like was done in years past. I believe they are reactive, which puts us behind the curve.
KalashniKEV
04-05-15, 16:18
And profiling rag heads would work out super great until you have people who can't tell the difference between an Arab and someone from India...or Brazil. I'm Hispanic...
I'm Caucasian and I can tell you that the very-same-people who want you to agree with them on violating the civil rights of "ragheads" will also defend violating your civil rights... and would probably quote statistics on the likelihood of being a victim of crime perpetrated by a person of color vs. being a victim of radical Islamic terror.
It's un-American, and it needs to be corrected when you hear it. Just like "Raghead," the "N-word," and whatever they're calling you behind your back.
Hm. What if my religion states in its commandments that thou shalt own a machine gun and thou shalt practice with it weekly? I wonder if it could get a religious exemption to the Hughes Amendment.
It used to be you could get whacked out on peyote if you claimed it was in your religion.
Now you can discriminate against gays if you say it's in your religion.
I'm waiting for the first person to claim they don't have to serve brown people because it's in their religion- and the hilarious thing is that Bobby Jindal is on the side of this ridiculousness and it's probably going to be someone from his state that makes that play and turns his family away.
Laws have consequences.
If the interstate commerce clause can be used to inflict all kinds of Evil on the Citizens, I'd laugh if this "Religious Freedom" nonsense could be used to for one or two good things.
So because they are not white, from another country, and are Muslim they don't have to adhere to the NFA?
If everyone ignored the NFA, it would be unenforceable and just go away.
That's basically how we ended up in this immigration situation.
We have the ability to end this problem by supper time tonight. Nuke, chem, carpet bombing- all high effective and pretty much off the table. It isn't that we don't have the capability- it's that we lack the will.
You're ignoring the fact that if our government turned tyrannical, and was deliberately targeting non-combatants and waging wars of aggression, it would be the Patriot's obligation to take down that regime.
Multiculturalism and Social Justice will be the death of America. You cannot let these 8th Century minded people into a modern Constitutional Republic. They're a poor fit. Take a look at what is happening in Malmö, Sweden. Somalis and other beggars from 3rd World Hellholes are destroying the place. I've spent time in southern Sweden so I know from first hand experience:
http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/96146/swedens-damn-jew-problem
I have no problem calling Islamic fundamentalist devils "Ragheads", or Somalis "Skinnies". During my Army career I was an equal opportunity killer of both. We need to keep them out and let them kill themselves in their own rotten part of the world. Spend time around them and you'll get a feel for what I'm talking about.
Multiculturalism and Social Justice will be the death of America. You cannot let these 8th Century minded people into a modern Constitutional Republic. They're a poor fit. Take a look at what is happening in Malmö, Sweden. Somalis and other beggars from 3rd World Hellholes are destroying the place. I've spent time in southern Sweden so I know from first hand experience:
http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/96146/swedens-damn-jew-problem
I have no problem calling Islamic fundamentalist devils "Ragheads", or Somalis "Skinnies". During my Army career I was an equal opportunity killer of both. We need to keep them out and let them kill themselves in their own rotten part of the world. Spend time around them and you'll get a feel for what I'm talking about.
I agree 110%, and thank you for serving our Republic.
KalashniKEV
04-05-15, 20:26
Multiculturalism and Social Justice will be the death of America.
So... is it then your opinion that monoethnic, unicultural society and social injustice is the way forward?
I hope you don't voice those opinions in person around folks who hold dear American Values.
I have no problem calling Islamic fundamentalist devils "Ragheads", or Somalis "Skinnies". During my Army career I was an equal opportunity killer of both.
Bully for you. Put it back in your pants now.
Understand that you could have the most sound, logical, well researched argument in the world, but as soon as you resort to ignorance and start using racial epithets, you reveal yourself.
So... is it then your opinion that monoethnic, unicultural society and social injustice is the way forward?
That is a resounding yes. Multiculturalism is equivalent to failure. United we stand, and divided we fall..
Multiculturalism and Social Justice will be the death of America. You cannot let these 8th Century minded people into a modern Constitutional Republic. They're a poor fit. Take a look at what is happening in Malmö, Sweden. Somalis and other beggars from 3rd World Hellholes are destroying the place. I've spent time in southern Sweden so I know from first hand experience:
http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/96146/swedens-damn-jew-problem
I have no problem calling Islamic fundamentalist devils "Ragheads", or Somalis "Skinnies". During my Army career I was an equal opportunity killer of both. We need to keep them out and let them kill themselves in their own rotten part of the world. Spend time around them and you'll get a feel for what I'm talking about.
This is fvcking absurd. I'm sorry I am honestly disgusted that you say this, and I would really hope I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here.
Multiculturalism will not be the death of America, it was the god damn foundation of this country. You should put down your dog-eared copy of Mein Kampf and get off the farm for a bit. This country has always been a a melting pot of sorts, one where any citizen could be a patriot and a nationalist without losing their ethnic cultural identity.
What you suggest is some sort of racial tyranny, one I would lay my life down to fight at any cost. The ability to contribute to a common goal for the success and prosperity of this country is not one that any culture or ethnicity has monopolized. There are plenty of those blonde haired blue eyed people you speak of that don't do shit to better their community. Every race and ethnic group has their dregs and I'm happy to be part of a collective that would make it more difficult for them to prosper at the cost of others' labor. But it would not be one that discriminates which race or ethnic origin gets a free pass.
By the way, you aren't the only one who has spent time with those you mentioned. Good on you for killing them, it sure is easier to dehumanize them from the air than it is when you live in their homes and integrate in the population. But I'll not hide behind my service in and after the military to push some sort of racist agenda. I have never advocated giving anyone who poses a threat being pardoned or left alone. I would be happy to go back and continue hunting those individuals down would my health improve and if I survive the next few years, I plan on doing exactly that. But ground operations are built and developed off Intel and careful planning, not a desire to ethnically cleanse the world of those we see as inferior.
I'm disturbed that you believe this is a solution and that other members salute and support this mindset. "The Republic" was never, and will never be, one that prospers on the efforts of one superior race of citizens. This is the kind of thinking that will tear this country apart faster than any terror organization. Keep turning on your neighbors and treating them like the enemy, it does wonders for building the "United we stand" portion.
Christianity is under attack on multiple fronts. While the gay front in America is not ISIS or Al-Shabaab, they are actively attempting to tear down the Christian moral underpinning of this country. And to state that Christianity was not the target in the Kenya attack is ignorant, at best. Muslim extremists target Christians for their faith alone. Those perpetrating the genocide of Christians have one goal alone: Extinction of Christianity. May they burn in hell for all eternity, for they have already lost the war.
Uh...no. The "Gay Front" isn't seeking to destroy your religion, they're seeking the freedom and liberty promised to them in our Constitution and paid for in the blood of those who defend it. Im sorry you don't like it and that you think your religion and what you call your god have the right to decide who is afforded those Constitutional liberties.
Now I'm not saying there are no participants in the Gay Rights movement who do in fact wish to dismantle the Christian foundation that seems to be unchallenged in classifying their fellow citizens as perverts, disease carrying devients, and want to decide based on THEIR values how others live. But the majority of gay people in this country don't care about what you worship and how you live as long as you leave them alone. They're not interested in tearing apart this nation's core values, they have more to gain by being part of it's overall success. So it offends your sensibilities? Then don't be part of it. Don't participate if you don't want to. If the effort to ban together and drive them out of their homes didn't exist, they probably wouldn't band together and fight back. I'm having a really hard time seeing the American Christians as the victim of any persecution...
And I won't lose any sleep over you thinking I'm ignorant. If you haven't noticed, there are plenty of Christians NOT being attacked by Muslim extremists, and plenty of victims of terror attacks aren't Christian. The majority of those killed in the Kenyan attack didn't identify as christians, and the overwhelming majority of Muslim terror attacks are...other Muslims. Sorry the reality doesn't fit your narrative. You can continue to cry victim all you want, religion is nothing more than a common ground that unites those recruited. National identity is just as relevant and more of a driving force for who is targeted in attacks.
But you're right, there are terrorists who specifically target members of religions other than their own. All other religions and even different sects of their own...not just your team...but I guess that's just a pesky little detail. I hardly think their ideals are anything to celebrate or condone and the free world would do well to show that we stand for liberty and prosperity, and that we do not apply religious ideals to our decision to use military force.
Kalishnekev, I agree with everything you've said. Its sad that some members would advocate violence against anyone who doesn't worship the way they do and would justify killing innocents who belong to the national/ethnic classification of other religions. I see an eery similarity in this thinking and the thinking of the terror groups we have spent years fighting at the cost of great American lives. I can't help but feel like after reading the sentiments here, the Muslim extremists are the
east of our concerns right now.
But then again, I'm just a dirty wetback, Koshinn must be one of them gooks, and you must be a damn liberal Democrat for thinking we're anything else.
I'm more than a little worried about the future of this country if this ridiculous mentality is so prevalent in this day and age.
ETA: LOL at the idea that we have anything to learn from Israel and their methods of fighting terror. Anyone who thinks we do should learn up about the freedom allowed to the common Israeli citizen, what's expected of them to part of the community, and how effective that's been. If the cost of safety is the Israeli way of life, I choose our current situation any day. Since we are currently at relatively low risk anyway, and the tyrannical approach would do little if anything to change that.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-05-15, 22:57
Since we are currently at relatively low risk anyway, and the tyrannical approach would do little if anything to change that.
I guess we'll never know publicly why are we at such low risk, or how low the incident rate and impact is since 9/11. Is it that AQ/ISIS knows that general attacks in in CONUS would force even BHO to start kicking ass directly? Is it that we actually have enough intel that anything beyond to a lone guy or two brothers gets caught up in some kind of intel trap and gets eliminated? Is there some kind of soft quid-pro-quo as alluded in "Munich" between us and the PLO, or like the Saudis have with people like AQ? If existing, are those kinds of things coming to an end.
I do agree that the actual impact of of AQ/ISIS operations is so low that the greatest risk posed by our intel services is that it would be turned onto us.
I guess we'll never know publicly why are we at such low risk, or how low the incident rate and impact is since 9/11. Is it that AQ/ISIS knows that general attacks in in CONUS would force even BHO to start kicking ass directly? Is it that we actually have enough intel that anything beyond to a lone guy or two brothers gets caught up in some kind of intel trap and gets eliminated? Is there some kind of soft quid-pro-quo as alluded in "Munich" between us and the PLO, or like the Saudis have with people like AQ? If existing, are those kinds of things coming to an end.
I do agree that the actual impact of of AQ/ISIS operations is so low that the greatest risk posed by our intel services is that it would be turned onto us.
I would wager it's a combination of all of the above. The terrorists know how to conduct a basic risk/benefit analysis. They know our security posture is going to make it hard to use people they trust, as they're probably being watched. Its too risky to use unproven operatives because the risk of them being caught and defecting is too dangerous, not to mention how many complex plans begin to fall apart without supervision. They've become paranoid, their ability to keep secrets having been proven faulty over the last decade and a half. Then there's the issue that we've been pretty successful at taking out and capturing or killing enough members that their infrastructure is shaky at best. So there's a high risk involved for an attack like the one in Kenya, and what would be the cost?
See unlike Kenya, or the other dozens of countries these attacks have happened in, our Intel machine is fairly good at figuring out who does what. As AQ and a few other groups have learned, we will be hot on their heels. Maybe they kill fifty, a hundred Americans in a domestic attack. The reward would be the world's most powerful military hunting and killing everyone connected to the perpetrating organization. They would never be able to emerge from hiding if they survived and whatever legitimacy they had would be destroyed in minutes from the connection being made.
Of course there's the other more complex issue of how many of these potential terror organizations currently being happy on our payroll, much lIke UBL was a long time ago. But we are probably going to keep these relations open rather than suddenly terminating them like we did in the past. That's a pretty sweet gravy train to be on and they're not going to fvck that up to get a successful attack that does nothing to grind our nation to a halt.
They will continue to strike weak targets which pose little threat to them in regards to retaliation. They'll boast about their victories and on their propaganda films will threaten to do the same in our country as a scare tactic. They want the perceived power they feel they'll get with enough successes and threats, though if we don't recognize their influence, they'll likely never pull off a major attack. They'll fight for the Levant as their home hoping that it will give them international legitimacy. As long as we don't let them strike fear into our hearts and we don't let that fear dictate our way of life, they have no power.
Unfortunately groups like ISIS have somehow been able to terrify us and dazzle us with bullshit by boasting about their easy victories over a disorganized military and a country in disarray. Many members here are more afraid of ISIS than the hundreds of more likely threats to our wellbeing.
Maybe I am missing something, Maybe not. I think what he is getting at (and I agree) is that many of these people that are coming here are not interested in becoming an integral part of society.
Look at Europe specifically and many of the Muslims have isolated themselves from the rest of society.
This is fvcking absurd. I'm sorry I am honestly disgusted that you say this, and I would really hope I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here.
Multiculturalism will not be the death of America, it was the god damn foundation of this country. You should put down your dog-eared copy of Mein Kampf and get off the farm for a bit. This country has always been a a melting pot of sorts, one where any citizen could be a patriot and a nationalist without losing their ethnic cultural identity.
What you suggest is some sort of racial tyranny, one I would lay my life down to fight at any cost. The ability to contribute to a common goal for the success and prosperity of this country is not one that any culture or ethnicity has monopolized. There are plenty of those blonde haired blue eyed people you speak of that don't do shit to better their community. Every race and ethnic group has their dregs and I'm happy to be part of a collective that would make it more difficult for them to prosper at the cost of others' labor. But it would not be one that discriminates which race or ethnic origin gets a free pass.
By the way, you aren't the only one who has spent time with those you mentioned. Good on you for killing them, it sure is easier to dehumanize them from the air than it is when you live in their homes and integrate in the population. But I'll not hide behind my service in and after the military to push some sort of racist agenda. I have never advocated giving anyone who poses a threat being pardoned or left alone. I would be happy to go back and continue hunting those individuals down would my health improve and if I survive the next few years, I plan on doing exactly that. But ground operations are built and developed off Intel and careful planning, not a desire to ethnically cleanse the world of those we see as inferior.
I'm disturbed that you believe this is a solution and that other members salute and support this mindset. "The Republic" was never, and will never be, one that prospers on the efforts of one superior race of citizens. This is the kind of thinking that will tear this country apart faster than any terror organization. Keep turning on your neighbors and treating them like the enemy, it does wonders for building the "United we stand" portion.
So... is it then your opinion that monoethnic, unicultural society and social injustice is the way forward?
I hope you don't voice those opinions in person around folks who hold dear American Values.
Bully for you. Put it back in your pants now.
Understand that you could have the most sound, logical, well researched argument in the world, but as soon as you resort to ignorance and start using racial epithets, you reveal yourself.
Sonny, I don't know how old you are, but you don't know beans from bullshit. My Country sent me to every dung heap from Nicaragua, El Salvador, Panama, Somalia, Ethiopia, Saudi, Kuwait, Iraq and a few others in my 22 years of Army Service, and I can tell you that every last one of those places have people who hate our guts for who we are, but they want in so they can feed off the fruits of our labors. They don't want to be Americans, they want to turn this place into the shit holes they want to get out of because they don't have the sophistication to know what it takes to build something great like America, and to protect it and care for it.
Agreed this Country is a land of immigrants , but people with a desire to make a new life, learn the language and culture. A true desire to become Americans. In the 19th Century, Europe lost the risk takers, the innovators, the people with a desire to pave their own way and make something in the world. Europe lost two generations of the best and brightest and the hardest workers because they came here, and what was left were people willing to accept the status quo, to accept tyrannical government, to easily accept the concept of a nanny State.
Now, what we have are the flotsam of the world wanting in, and getting in, who bring nothing to the table. Look at places like Detroit or Minneapolis. Filled with Muslim America haters who want to impose Sharia on us, and are ready to sign up for the next Jihad, against the very people who took them in. Multiculturalism be Damned. Remember the old bumper sticker: "America, Love it or Leave it".
Moose-Knuckle
04-06-15, 01:13
Multiculturalism and Social Justice will be the death of America.
The Cloward-Piven strategy at it's apex, once all the social engineering is done CONUS will essentially be "Balkanized". The enemy never could take us on in a stand up fight so they lay low in the shadows and chip away bit by bit. How do you eat an elephant and all that.
You cannot let these 8th Century minded people into a modern Constitutional Republic. They're a poor fit.
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
The Judeo-Christian Values of America (http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2007/09/the_judeochristian_values_of_a.html)
Take a look at what is happening in Malmö, Sweden. Somalis and other beggars from 3rd World Hellholes are destroying the place. I've spent time in southern Sweden so I know from first hand experience:
http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/96146/swedens-damn-jew-problem
I hear Sweden as with some other Western European countries have an epidemic of gang rape via the Islamic "refugees" from the Middle-East and Africa. I see how "multiculturalism" is working out for them . . .
I have no problem calling Islamic fundamentalist devils "Ragheads", or Somalis "Skinnies". During my Army career I was an equal opportunity killer of both. We need to keep them out and let them kill themselves in their own rotten part of the world. Spend time around them and you'll get a feel for what I'm talking about.
I surmise my Scottish grandfather who served in the European Theater of WWII is a racist every time he has ever referred to Germans as a "Kraut" or "Jerry". Same when he refers to Japanese as "Japs" . . . the horror!
Cincinnatus
04-06-15, 01:40
Sonny, I don't know how old you are, but you don't know beans from bullshit. My Country sent me to every dung heap from Nicaragua, El Salvador, Panama, Somalia, Ethiopia, Saudi, Kuwait, Iraq and a few others in my 22 years of Army Service, and I can tell you that every last one of those places have people who hate our guts for who we are, but they want in so they can feed off the fruits of our labors. They don't want to be Americans, they want to turn this place into the shit holes they want to get out of because they don't have the sophistication to know what it takes to build something great like America, and to protect it and care for it.
Agreed this Country is a land of immigrants , but people with a desire to make a new life, learn the language and culture. A true desire to become Americans. In the 19th Century, Europe lost the risk takers, the innovators, the people with a desire to pave their own way and make something in the world. Europe lost two generations of the best and brightest and the hardest workers because they came here, and what was left were people willing to accept the status quo, to accept tyrannical government, to easily accept the concept of a nanny State.
Now, what we have are the flotsam of the world wanting in, and getting in, who bring nothing to the table. Look at places like Detroit or Minneapolis. Filled with Muslim America haters who want to impose Sharia on us, and are ready to sign up for the next Jihad, against the very people who took them in. Multiculturalism be Damned. Remember the old bumper sticker: "America, Love it or Leave it".
I wholeheartedly agree with this. (And with Mooseknuckle)
Political correctness was invented and promulgated by the communists, specifically the Chinese, to help control discourse so that it is always about class; Marxists' slogan, "no war but class war, " right? (Don't bother delving wikipedia for a different origin; of course the liberal academics would have a different explanation as they are the high priests of political correctness.)
Today, political correctness is used by statists to control the discourse to always be about class, but also race and gender. It is a manipulation and a distraction from a true Thomas Paine common sense understanding of events and problems.
Multiculturalism is flawed in many ways, but essentially, it's purpose is to water-down and distort traditional cultural values and teachings by bringing and preserving other cultures into the dominant one--Canadians call it the "mosaic"versus the American melting pot. Liberals do not like traditional American culture and to distort and subvert the dominant paradigm, they must water it down, but this is still only part of why they do it. The presence of more ethnicities and cultures--still being followed separately and not absorbed--allows Liberals to then turn the dialog and the discussion all to, you guessed it: class, race, and gender, due to the supposed intrusion by traditional values and insensitivity of traditional values to these things. When the dialog is all about class, race, and gender, the socialists can then squall about how unfair and unequal everything is, and fan the flames of class conflict--not to make things more fair, never mistake that, but to give themselves power over others through the supposed "solutions," to all this unfairness. They deal in envy they way a stockbroker deals in stocks.
Another problem with multiculturalism is that it looks at all questions through the lens of cultural-relativism rather than a teleological or deontological moral paradigm, but that is a whole separate discussion.
That some arguments on this thread may be colored by the dogmas and distortions of political correctness should not be surprising to me, but it is sad. I think we should put aside the demagoguery of the Liberals and not make things about labels and how "insensitive" they are.
Moose-Knuckle
04-06-15, 01:53
I wholeheartedly agree with this. (And with Mooseknuckle)
Political correctness was invented and promulgated by the communists, specifically the Chinese, to help control discourse so that it is always about class; Marxists' slogan, "no war but class war, " right? (Don't bother delving wikipedia for a different origin; of course the liberal academics would have a different explanation as they are the high priests of political correctness.)
Today, political correctness is used by statists to control the discourse to always be about class, but also race and gender. It is a manipulation and a distraction from a true Thomas Paine common sense understanding of events and problems.
Multiculturalism is flawed in many ways, but essentially, it's purpose is to water-down and distort traditional cultural values and teachings by bringing and preserving other cultures into the dominant one--Canadians call it the "mosaic"versus the American melting pot. Liberals do not like traditional American culture and to distort and subvert the dominant paradigm, they must water it down, but this is still only part of why they do it. The presence of more ethnicities and cultures--still being followed separately and not absorbed--allows Liberals to then turn the dialog and the discussion all to, you guessed it: class, race, and gender, due to the supposed intrusion by traditional values and insensitivity of traditional values to these things. When the dialog is all about class, race, and gender, the socialists can then squall about how unfair and unequal everything is, and fan the flames of class conflict--not to make things more fair, never mistake that, but to give themselves power over others through the supposed "solutions," to all this unfairness. They deal in envy they way a stockbroker deals in stocks.
Another problem with multiculturalism is that it looks at all questions through the lens of cultural-relativism rather than a teleological or deontological moral paradigm, but that is a whole separate discussion.
That some arguments on this thread may be colored by the dogmas and distortions of political correctness should not be surprising to me, but it is sad. I think we should put aside the demagoguery of the Liberals and not make things about labels and how "insensitive" they are.
Better than I could ever have said it, bravo!
Damn, what excellent posts by you Moose-Knuckle and Cincinnatus. I'm up early here in New Mexico. Ranch work begins before dawn and I'm enjoying my first cup of coffee. It is surprising to me how my anti multiculturalism posts got a couple of folks all tied in knots, seething with rage, screaming racism. Reminds me of the Soros funded bunch in mainstream media, the Justice Department or even the White House. I guess you can even find them here lurking about.
Averageman
04-06-15, 08:23
61-66, for the most part I have to agree with everything written here on these posts.
So well articulated.
Thanks
It's too bad Anders Breivik didn't target a madrasa school or training camp.
KalashniKEV
04-06-15, 11:10
That is a resounding yes. Multiculturalism is equivalent to failure.
Multiculturalism is the foundation of the United States of America.
The notion of a White, Protestant America that others should conform to is an un American concept that periodically rears it's ugly head championed by different con men with the aim of hijacking and misappropriating American Values and Culture.
One need only take a stroll through any of our great, old cities to know that conformity was never a requirement to make your way an prosper in America. You'll probably encounter signs with bizarre letters, people speaking strange tongues, worshipping as they choose, and even wearing different styles of clothing.
The only requirement is that you Produce... and the Productive Class isn't being bled out by evil foreign people executing a long term strategy- the Entitlement Class is vastly comprised of native born Americans.
The narrative you subscribe to is false- because the world is not divided by language, religion, or skin color... it's divided by Social Class.
I probably have more in common with my gay neighbor, Muslim co-worker, or black friend because we share similar backgrounds in terms of education, culture, and patterns of life.
I don't deny that I probably have very little in common with someone who lives in a log cabin, farm, ranch, or cave. I can tolerate their different views, and our shared American Values should be what unites us... but American Values also leave little tolerance for ignorance. That is why, as Americans, when we encounter Evil or injustice in the world, we correct it on the spot within our power.
What you suggest is some sort of racial tyranny, one I would lay my life down to fight at any cost.
This attitude is indicative of the greater rift within the Republican party. The hardliners have lost their relevance and are rapidly becoming extinct... despite their claims that some phantom electorate exists somewhere between the coasts waiting for some Christian version of Ayatollah before they will cast a vote.
Sonny, I don't know how old you are, but you don't know beans from bullshit.
I don't know your age either... but you've not made a convincing argument.
My Country sent me to every dung heap from Nicaragua, El Salvador, Panama, Somalia, Ethiopia, Saudi, Kuwait, Iraq and a few others in my 22 years of Army Service, and I can tell you that every last one of those places have people who hate our guts for who we are, but they want in so they can feed off the fruits of our labors.
We're all veterans here, so save yourself the bluster and quit stroking.
You might want to ponder this though... why do you think America sends us to these places? Is it "so they can feed off the fruits of our labors?"
It is not. Warfare is an extension of Foreign Policy, and Foreign Policy is a push-pull game... and it doesn't always line up with the National Interest.
We exploit, we give back, we undermine, we sponsor... that's the game.
It is surprising to me how my anti multiculturalism posts got a couple of folks all tied in knots, seething with rage, screaming racism.
Really?
You must be reading something that's not there.
At the very least, I will point out that no one has called you a racist... you exposed yourself.
It's too bad Anders Breivik didn't target a madrasa school or training camp.
I was going to stay out of this one, but really?! He is the poster boy for what needs to be done? ****ing hell....he is a terrorist scumbag, just like the ****ing radical Islamist ****s. Would you celebrate if someone who shared his views went ahead and did something similar in the US?
Do you think what he did furthered his cause? Do you think it opened up for more critical debate?
The shame with these discussions on here, is that the "correct" view is an absolutist one, and some people cannot see the forest for the trees. There are several different topics being discussed here, and the "total annihilation" approach is being thrown at each one....
A question for those of you who feel that we should turn the ME and parts of Africa into glass, do you really think it will work?
I don't really see why these discussions are allowed to take place on here.
Understand that you could have the most sound, logical, well researched argument in the world, but as soon as you resort to ignorance and start using racial epithets, you reveal yourself.
You're the one bringing race into the discussion. Why the hang up about race? Any ethnic group could foster terrorism, or be a drain on the resources of our society. I suspect there are other issues with you. You certainly are a rude individual who seems to have a slant towards the Progressive Left. Maybe you've got some chip on your shoulder because you feel you're some kind of victim in our society? Get over it and move on.
Cincinnatus
04-06-15, 12:01
Kalishnikev,
You are confusing having multiple cultural backgrounds blended into American cultural heritage with multiculturalism.
The two are not the same thing. You are not understanding the difference between the melting pot and the mosaic.
We have always been the melting pot.
Of course Americans have come from different cultures and backgrounds and blended these cultures together to create America. The Scotch-Irish, already blended themselves with several cultures, were the first to call themselves Americans.
People from different backgrounds and cultures came to the U.S. and retained portions of their native lands and blended others into the mainstream American culture. This has happened in every country--England and English culture in the 18th century also had mutliple national and cultural roots.
But Multiculturalism is not about blending anything. It is about coming to Sweden or Germany or Britain or Paris or America with one's own way of doing things, setting up an Islamic section of the city, and demanding handouts and accomadations from the government to force change in the dominant culture. They do not respect the nation they are moving into or wish to become Frenchmen or Swedes or Americans; they want to force that nation to do their bidding.
Leftists support and allow this for the reason that another divided group with grievances against the majority serves their divide and conquer agenda and allows them to once again flare the fires of class conflict by focusing on race and gender and class.
It is a Leftist driven, agenda oriented, ideological movement, not a simple influx of new cultures into our country.
And as far as what is and is not American, understand this: this country was founded on the concepts of individual liberty, small, limited government, and that sovereignty lies ultimately with the people themselves, the governed rather than government; anything that seeks to subvert, alter, and anhilhate liberty and that American system is the very definition of UnAmerican, and it is that which is the deliberate, plotted, and intentional goal of multiculturalism: to destroy those three things.
It has nothing to do with race. You are swallowing the distractor.
Multiculturalism as it is being defined by modern society is the downfall of America. Not will be; but IS. IMO the PC bastardization of the multi cultural country is cause more division than unity. I am an immigrant. I left my country of birth because it was a shithole of oppression and land of no opportunity. My "culture" was so freaking awesome that it created a shit hole for its members to grovel in. I didn't flee because of some evangelical need to come better America. I fled so I could survive and thrive. I became an American and will bitch slap the first multicultural asshole to want to hyphenate me. I assimilated, found my common goal of freedom and rallied behind it and will continue to rally behind it so my kids can have a better life than me. Modern day interpretation of multiculturalism espouses the theory that my "culture" is just as good as Amercan culture and I should try to hang on to it. Others should cater to my "culture" putting theirs aside in deference to mine. That is has is see modern day multiculturalism. That kind of behavior is disastrous to a society. That's the kind of behavior that sets up the whole you have to let me wear a burka for my DL picture cause of my religion, but you can't say Bless you when I sneeze. Or you have to learn Spanish cause I can't fill out your forms in English. That isn't unity as a country or as a society. UNITY doesn't require identical color, sex or faith.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-06-15, 12:45
Kalishnikev,
You are confusing having multiple cultural backgrounds blended into American cultural heritage with multiculturalism.
The two are not the same thing. You are not understanding the difference between the melting pot and the mosaic.
We have always been the melting pot.
Nailed it!
In the past you probably never saw the people you left behind in the old country and maybe had 6 month cycle of written correspondence. Now people flit back and forth and you have a cable channel catering to every different subculture. You can skype back and forth. The pressures to integrate are not as strong as in the past. We don't have a melting pot of cheese, we have a lumpy burgoo soup that won't come together, ever.
There is an American culture. If you don't want to join it, enhance it and further it, why did you come here in the first place? The weather? People who come here to escape their shit-hole and then try to take us in that direction are a complete puzzlement to me.
Multiculturalism? Frankly, I don't think the KKK could have come up with a better plan to keep new minorities down and make them compete with our most economically vulnerable citizens. The central americans coming to the US now aren't going to compete with my kids with their private-schooled and tutored, two parent (with six college degrees) family upbringing. They will keep the wages blue-collar workers lower for another generation. Keeping them in their communities and catering to their Spanish language will further hinder their integration to US and keep them even more economically isolated.
Multiculturalism is the modern version of making ghettos to keep these people down. The Progressives can then skim off the top of govt programs (directly and thru bureaucracy) to enrich themselves.
I'm thrilled with the contributions that immigrants have made to the US in the last 40 years. I can go to a strip mall and get sushi, Tex-mex, american bar food, a breakfast place with Belgium (actually Brussels) waffles, and top it off with some gelato. (Can you tell its almost lunch time).
What I don't like is going into parts of towns that make reflexively reach for my passport and my CCW.
Multiculturalism has run its course, its time for integration.
Cincinnatus
04-06-15, 13:36
Multiculturalism as it is being defined by modern society is the downfall of America. Not will be; but IS. IMO the PC bastardization of the multi cultural country is cause more division than unity. I am an immigrant. I left my country of birth because it was a shithole of oppression and land of no opportunity. My "culture" was so freaking awesome that it created a shit hole for its members to grovel in. I didn't flee because of some evangelical need to come better America. I fled so I could survive and thrive. I became an American and will bitch slap the first multicultural asshole to want to hyphenate me. I assimilated, found my common goal of freedom and rallied behind it and will continue to rally behind it so my kids can have a better life than me. Modern day interpretation of multiculturalism espouses the theory that my "culture" is just as good as Amercan culture and I should try to hang on to it. Others should cater to my "culture" putting theirs aside in deference to mine. That is has is see modern day multiculturalism. That kind of behavior is disastrous to a society. That's the kind of behavior that sets up the whole you have to let me wear a burka for my DL picture cause of my religion, but you can't say Bless you when I sneeze. Or you have to learn Spanish cause I can't fill out your forms in English. That isn't unity as a country or as a society. UNITY doesn't require identical color, sex or faith.
This is an excellent post.
when folks come here not even legal yet and protest for whatever reason flying there flag and not the US flag or burning the US flag and flying there flag !!
you can be proud of your country but you left it so your flag should not be flown above ours or in place of ours ! but if you come here illegally and then crap on how bad we are sorry you should not be allowed in
I have a HUGE issue with illegals because my wife and I stood in line and paid the fees and did the legal things then someone cuts in line saying how bad we are
same as going to parts of town where they want there law wont serve you or catch a taxi and they claim no change or cant understand you etc...
then in videos those in this country want death to you and the country etc.....
or signs that one cant read and no english anywhere ?
come here be thankful fly your new countries flag proudly and dont crap on it
sure open up a native flavor restaurant and have the name in your native tongue but also in english and strive to learn the language and cultures and traditions of your new country
I can understand you wanting neighborhoods of your own people and foods but make it accessible and friendly and safe for others who came here also
and when we have our holidays dont try to cause issues its not fair you left your country for a better place sorry you have to leave those things that mostly likely made your country a crap hole and why you left
You're the one bringing race into the discussion. Why the hang up about race? Any ethnic group could foster terrorism, or be a drain on the resources of our society. I suspect there are other issues with you. You certainly are a rude individual who seems to have a slant towards the Progressive Left. Maybe you've got some chip on your shoulder because you feel you're some kind of victim in our society? Get over it and move on.
LOL. Speaking of leftist tactics...
You could at least be a man and show some damn conviction in your beliefs and defend them when challenged. This assertion that Kev must be a perpetual victim because you can't remember your own comments is laughable.
Until you brought your fear mongering superior race bullshit in here, nobody was discussing race. The discussion was why or why not to use the nuclear option on an enemy with no borders. It wasn't until you started talking about profiling and harassing "ragheads" as a viable solution and leaving the poor little blonde white girls alone. Never mind how asinine that idea would be and how irrelevant that is when the perpetrators of the attack in this thread were not the "ragheads" you seem to be the only member with experience on. Lol.
Just because you want to change your attitude or stance doesn't mean you can deny what you said or blame others for what you said. Anyone who has read the entire thread can see you were the first and only one to suggest this was a race issue.
You owe Kev an apology for the comment I quoted.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-09-15, 00:46
I think I was the one that brought up the 'nuclear option' and I'm sorry I did. I didn't mean that I had a target list in mind, just the fact that we have weapons of literally unimaginable power- and that my main point was that we won't use them or things like carpet bombing- and I wasn't even advocating that we should. We did it against Europeans within the living memory of a lot of people, but that is off the table. It took 10 years and two tries for AQ to take down the World Trade Center, but can level any building on the planet with a JDAM within 12 hours. I was just trying to point out the reality that these jokers play in the shadows because they can't stand and fight.
The Romans would have. You ever run into a someone identifying as "Carthaginian"? The closest you get is the singer 'Dido'. The planet is covered in Italian descendants.
I'm wiling to call it not a Muslim problem, as long as people realize that it requires a Muslim solution.
That Harf twit is right for the wrong reasons, we can't kill our way to victory over these animals. We need people like King Hussein taking out the trash.
We need people like King Hussein taking out the trash.
Do you mean King Abdullah II of Jordan?
KalashniKEV
04-09-15, 11:59
We have always been the melting pot.
A quick stroll through any great American city proves that to be completely false, once you hit Chinatown.
Assimilation to the collective has never been a requirement for success in America. Only that you produce.
This assertion that Kev must be a perpetual victim because you can't remember your own comments is laughable.
You owe Kev an apology for the comment I quoted.
No apology is required.
I took that as pure projection.
When he combined that with the fantasy that folks were tore up over his racial slurs or ignorance, and then he started playing the victim card, it was all but confirmed.
That Harf twit is right for the wrong reasons, we can't kill our way to victory over these animals. We need people like King Hussein taking out the trash.
Just because he's bombing ISIS, doesn't make him our friend, and just because al Asad is bombing ISIS, doesn't make him our enemy.
We need to let go of our Cold War alliances and adopt a Realist foreign policy.
The monarchies are a part of the problem.
A quick stroll through any great American city proves that to be completely false, once you hit Chinatown.
Assimilation to the collective has never been a requirement for success in America. Only that you produce Not a requirement..
No apology is required.
I took that as pure projection.
When he combined that with the fantasy that folks were tore up over his racial slurs or ignorance, and then he started playing the victim card, it was all but confirmed This is not a race issue - it's cultural.
Just because he's bombing ISIS, doesn't make him our friend, and just because al Asad is bombing ISIS, doesn't make him our enemy.
We need to let go of our Cold War alliances and adopt a Realist foreign policy.
The monarchies are a part of the problem. A strong monarchy is the only way to keep the savages in check
.....
KalashniKEV
04-09-15, 14:26
Only that you produce Not a requirement.
It might not be as big a requirement today because of the welfare state that we've since created, but it remains the only requirement.
You're falling into the Obamunist trap.
We're not divided by language, race, religion, or sexuality... only class.
You have more in common with someone in Pakistan who comes from your class than you do with someone above or below you on the socioeconomic ladder in this country.
This is not a race issue - it's cultural.
It's not a race issue... who was it that brought race into the discussion and then started dropping victim cards?
A strong monarchy is the only way to keep the savages in check...
A strong government keeps any population in check.
The monarchies are not the good guys in the region... and are the root source of transnational jihad.
If GHWB hadn't reversed course on Saddam, there never would have been a 9/11.
He was beholden to the House of Saud.
No apology is required.
I took that as pure projection.
When he combined that with the fantasy that folks were tore up over his racial slurs or ignorance, and then he started playing the victim card, it was all but confirmed.
LOL. Speaking of leftist tactics...
You could at least be a man and show some damn conviction in your beliefs and defend them when challenged. This assertion that Kev must be a perpetual victim because you can't remember your own comments is laughable.
Until you brought your fear mongering superior race bullshit in here, nobody was discussing race. The discussion was why or why not to use the nuclear option on an enemy with no borders. It wasn't until you started talking about profiling and harassing "ragheads" as a viable solution and leaving the poor little blonde white girls alone. Never mind how asinine that idea would be and how irrelevant that is when the perpetrators of the attack in this thread were not the "ragheads" you seem to be the only member with experience on. Lol.
Just because you want to change your attitude or stance doesn't mean you can deny what you said or blame others for what you said. Anyone who has read the entire thread can see you were the first and only one to suggest this was a race issue.
You owe Kev an apology for the comment I quoted.
KalashniKEV, you're all mouth. You can call me a racist all you want. That's fine. I haven't changed my stance on anything. Read my comments. I would figure a graduate of Tulane would have a little more sophistication than what you are demonstrating. Work on your own issues before you start attacking others. By the way, are you still the ladies man you have always claimed to be? Some of your posts in other forums would lend themselves to you being a first class Sexist.
Sow_0311, you just follow up on Kevin's posts like he has you on a leash or something. Detach yourself and run along.
Eurodriver
04-09-15, 14:34
You have more in common with someone in Pakistan who comes from your class than you do with someone above or below you on the socioeconomic ladder in this country.
While I want to agree, I'm not sure that I can.
What is "Class" in America? What is "class" in any first world country, anyway?
Let's say I make $50,000/yr, own a 3/2 in the suburbs and drive a Honda Accord.
What do Bill Gates or the Smiths on WIC/EBT have that's different than me?
The family using EBT is renting the exact same house next door with Section 8, and the Gates' live in a larger house with more fancy gadgets.
Conversely, the guy who is nailing another guy, or the Muslim who won't let his wife show her face, or the illegal Mexicans who don't speak English have a much sharper division to me than the previously mentioned Gates' and Smiths.
I've been around a lot of rich people, and I grew up with a lot of poor people. I don't see much of a divide between class at all in this country. This view was only confirmed after going to places like Iraq where the poor live in dirt holes in the ground and the rich have literal gold palaces and gold AK47s.
Please knock off the personal attacks and name calling, this is the only request you will get.
KalashniKEV
04-09-15, 16:23
KalashniKEV, you're all mouth. You can call me a racist all you want.
Which is funny... because no one has called you racist.
I would figure a graduate of Tulane...
Roll Wave.
What is "Class" in America? What is "class" in any first world country, anyway?
At it's most basic level, there exists the Productive Class and the Entitlement Class. This is the biggest and most obvious gap that divides America... within each there are also rungs on the socioeconomic ladder.
What do Bill Gates or the Smiths on WIC/EBT have that's different than me?
Clothes, Cars, Jobs, Houses, Vacations, People... basically everything in life.
Conversely, the guy who is nailing another guy, or the Muslim who won't let his wife show her face, or the illegal Mexicans who don't speak English have a much sharper division to me than the previously mentioned Gates' and Smiths.
As you continue to accumulate experience in life you'll find that someone with the same level of education, the same basic patterns of life, the same basic plan to get ahead, and who operates using the equivalent level of resources has a lot more in common with you than a welfare family or a multibillionaire philanthropist.
Sometimes the only difference between you and "the savage" is a language, an imaginary friend, and a hat... and to some folks that's uncomfortable.
This view was only confirmed after going to places like Iraq where the poor live in dirt holes in the ground and the rich have literal gold palaces and gold AK47s.
You were a Marine, right?
Were you in Anbar?
You should have met plenty of middle class Iraqis.
Which is funny... because no one has called you racist.
No, just what you refer to as "racial epithets". That's fine with me. I forget that you have been part of the New Army. Perhaps a little more PC than us barbarians who retired in 1997 and before. In Desert Storm, our use of language describing the enemy hiding a T-72M1 behind a berm was even more colorful than "Rag Head". In Mogadishu, any bi-pedal creatures on the streets firing an RPG or AK at my aircraft or that of my fellow pilots was a lot more colorful than "Skinnies". I have not lost any of my dislike for any of them. And that goes for a free and open immigration system that lets these potential terrorist America Haters into my Country. I don't want them here, and you can hang any label you want on me for my feelings. I don't care.
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