View Full Version : The AH-6i "Little Bird"
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/boeings-big-attack-chopper-in-a-tiny-package-is-heading-1695351283
The US Army seems to have failed miserably (on multiple occasions) in the attempt to acquire a new scout helicopter to replace the old OH-58D's. Admittedly, I'm not an aviation guy but why couldn't something like this new AH-6i variant be made to work?
sevenhelmet
04-03-15, 10:52
I agree, the AH-6i looks like it has potential. The answer is probably money, but I don't know for sure.
We have a former Kiowa pilot on here, maybe he can chime in. I always loved the Little Bird, would love to ride in one. Although I didn't do so well in a Blackhawk so it'd probably be rough.
Whats wrong with the Kiowa? We had them as overwatch a few times in Iraq and they performed well. We had one female pilot that was a ruthless bitch to the insurgents in 05. It was awesome watching her straffe and rocket those assholes.
Kiowa is due to be retired before too long. The Army decided that it's replacement would be a combination of Apache helos and drones, because they apparently weren't able to successfully buy a new scout helicopter. At least two separate attempts fell through due to technical and/or cost reasons.
The Saudis were evidently more successful.
Always liked the 500D line.
I flew the OH-6 and the AH-6J early on and later B, C and D model of Kiowa. The AH-6I is too small and light for the kind of avionics and weapons systems the Kiowa Warrior carries, including the mast mounted sight. I was hoping the R & D people would come up with something new and a little bigger than the Kiowa D, but smaller than the AH-64 Longbow.
Whats wrong with the Kiowa? We had them as overwatch a few times in Iraq and they performed well. We had one female pilot that was a ruthless bitch to the insurgents in 05. It was awesome watching her straffe and rocket those assholes.
I think I know exactly who you are talking about. I went to highschool with her.
The AH-6 is a great little bird and it's lineage is traced back to the Hughes OH-6, i.e. flying egg. The OH-6 holds a special place in my heart as it was the first helicopter I ever flew. Over the years Hughes became MD and MD made many improvements to the aircrafts' payload and endurance capabilities. Original OH-6 from the Vietnam era worked as hunter-killer teams with the Cobra.
I don't know much about the OH-58, so maybe someone else can chime in here.
BUT Both the current AH-6 and OH-58 only have about 2-2.5 hrs of flight time and both are pretty small. The latest civilian version of the AH-6 is the MD 530F. Both the 530F and AH-6i are more comparable to a sports car than a SUV or truck. With a surveillance platform, all those cameras, monitors, sensors etc add weight and drag, so you'd need more of a SUV or truck type of medium lift helicopter. Also, ideally add in one more crew member. I've never seen the back of a AH-6, but the OH-6 is tiny. The OH-58 isn't much bigger. I think the current OH-58 is a crew of two, either 2 pilots or a pilot and observer. A helicopter slightly larger than the current OH-58 or AH-6 would allow for a crew of 3, either two pilots OR a pilot and observer up front PLUS a third sensor operator in the back. Hopefully you gain a bit of endurance too.
Nightstalker865
04-03-15, 18:42
I agree. The 6 is just too light to carry the load out needed for what big ARMY uses/used the 58's for.
A two ship of 64's is hard to beat for the current AO.
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I flew the OH-6 and the AH-6J early on and later B, C and D model of Kiowa. The AH-6I is too small and light for the kind of avionics and weapons systems the Kiowa Warrior carries, including the mast mounted sight. I was hoping the R & D people would come up with something new and a little bigger than the Kiowa D, but smaller than the AH-64 Longbow.
Something along the lines of the Wildcat?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_AW159_Wildcat
I flew the AH-6 in combat the first time in Grenada (Urgent Fury) and it was an incredible and versatile aircraft. The pucker factor in that operation was the amount of time flying over open ocean. For that operation we flew from Fort Campbell to Fort Bragg (a fuel stop in Asheville, NC) then packed them up in Air Force planes for a ride down to the main airport in Barbados. From Barbados to the northern tip of Grenada it's over 50 air miles of ocean. It was an operational secret at the time when we were still called Taskforce 160 that we could land and refuel onboard Navy Ships. Also few knew we had communications problems and had to use Naval ships as UHF and VHF repeaters just for us to communicate. That was classified as well. Got to eat some chow on the USS Independence during a refuel stop and loved that Navy food.
Slater, regarding the Wildcat, I would hope for something even smaller.
Kiowa is due to be retired before too long. The Army decided that it's replacement would be a combination of Apache helos and drones, because they apparently weren't able to successfully buy a new scout helicopter. At least two separate attempts fell through due to technical and/or cost reasons.
The Saudis were evidently more successful.
Its already being retired. They already took all of ours and 101 just made their final flight this past week I believe. Now that I think about it, I don't know what that leaves us for any type of gunship because I'm almost positive there aren't any Apaches here...
I flew the AH-6 in combat the first time in Grenada (Urgent Fury) and it was an incredible and versatile aircraft. The pucker factor in that operation was the amount of time flying over open ocean. For that operation we flew from Fort Campbell to Fort Bragg (a fuel stop in Asheville, NC) then packed them up in Air Force planes for a ride down to the main airport in Barbados. From Barbados to the northern tip of Grenada it's over 50 air miles of ocean. It was an operational secret at the time when we were still called Taskforce 160 that we could land and refuel onboard Navy Ships. Also few knew we had communications problems and had to use Naval ships as UHF and VHF repeaters just for us to communicate. That was classified as well. Got to eat some chow on the USS Independence during a refuel stop and loved that Navy food.
Slater, regarding the Wildcat, I would hope for something even smaller.
That's badass. My dad was a Navy helo pilot. I wasn't made for it but that would be an awesome job.
Reading the accounts of the original OH-6A pilots in Vietnam made for some hair-raising reading. Flying low and slow over the treetops (and their other mission profiles) made for some horrendous casualty figures.
Reading the accounts of the original OH-6A pilots in Vietnam made for some hair-raising reading. Flying low and slow over the treetops (and their other mission profiles) made for some horrendous casualty figures.
If you haven't already read Low Level Hell.
I'm sure at least two of the authors on this thread have some very interesting stories as well.
Why don't they just build the Comanche.
Surely someone saved the blue prints on a floppy disk somewhere.
What about bell 429...... that maybe too practical.
Wtf is the procurement peoples problem. Them idiots could eff up a one man rock fight.
Reading the accounts of the original OH-6A pilots in Vietnam made for some hair-raising reading. Flying low and slow over the treetops (and their other mission profiles) made for some horrendous casualty figures.
That reminds me of my first day at Fort Rucker in 1982 and my introduction flight by a CW-4. I was a young 2LT and he gave me a ride I'll never forget. He was a Nam vet-did 3 tours.
I think I know exactly who you are talking about. I went to highschool with her.
.
Ask her if she remembers happening upon a platoon of Brads shooting at a group of insurgents in a palm grove out in farmlands in Eastern Iraq. If that's her tell her thank you for me.
Moose-Knuckle
04-04-15, 03:41
I flew the AH-6 in combat the first time in Grenada (Urgent Fury) and it was an incredible and versatile aircraft. The pucker factor in that operation was the amount of time flying over open ocean. For that operation we flew from Fort Campbell to Fort Bragg (a fuel stop in Asheville, NC) then packed them up in Air Force planes for a ride down to the main airport in Barbados. From Barbados to the northern tip of Grenada it's over 50 air miles of ocean. It was an operational secret at the time when we were still called Taskforce 160 that we could land and refuel onboard Navy Ships. Also few knew we had communications problems and had to use Naval ships as UHF and VHF repeaters just for us to communicate. That was classified as well. Got to eat some chow on the USS Independence during a refuel stop and loved that Navy food.
Slater, regarding the Wildcat, I would hope for something even smaller.
Damn cool tale, thank you for your service.
All you gents, many thanks!
It seems the plan was to take the Kiowa Warrior and modify it with a designation of OH-58F (modern avionics, weapons systems, etc.). But like under Carter, the US Military is again being gutted and will place us in a precarious global position. Some needed systems will be eliminated and no new R&D on 21st equipment. History repeats itself again.
To demonstrate how bad it was in October 1983 and the Grenada invasion, our unit designated as TF-160 were told the only onboard weapons we could take as sidearms were .38 caliber revolvers, and there were not enough for all the pilots. I brought my own S&W 66 with .357 ammo and several speedloaders. At our intel briefing at Fort Bragg, we were given civilian tourist maps instead of aviation charts. The "latest" satellite pictures were weeks old. I also remember some of the other 82nd Airborne units complaining they didn't have enough .45 ACP for their sidearms.
It took Reagan several years to get our military back in shape and I appreciate the man for it. I was transferred and promoted out of the the 160th in January 1994 just after Operation Gothic Serpent.
I take it that the Saudis will be using their new AH-6i's in a different capacity than our OH-58's?
OH58D, question for you, since you are qualified as an sme in this.
Is a dedicated scout helo necessary? Can similar results be had with multi ship formations of longbows mixed in?
Thank you for your years of service. Every time I read your posts, I think of the night hawk pilot named Bear assigned to rainbow in the tom clancy book rainbow six.
OH58D, question for you, since you are qualified as an sme in this.
Is a dedicated scout helo necessary? Can similar results be had with multi ship formations of longbows mixed in?
Thank you for your years of service. Every time I read your posts, I think of the night hawk pilot named Bear assigned to rainbow in the tom clancy book rainbow six.
The concept of Scout and Attack rotorcraft goes back to Vietnam, before I was ever in the Army. They were called "Pink Teams" where a Loach would scout and identify targets for AH-1 Cobras. That continued into my day with the OH58D placing a TADS laser identifier on a target, then launching itself or handing off the target to the Apache, or even fixed wing fast movers. Warfare is different today. Now you could use tiny UAVs as the scouts then hand off targets to Predators or Reapers for the kill.
Regarding the Longbow, I always wished the Kiowa Warrior had also been equipped with radar guided Hellfires. I would have enjoyed using that system.
All that crap in the back seat was made in the early 90's, a ipod shuffle would be leaps and bounds over it all today, and you could get your back seats back. Kiowa has plenty of faults, but I think its too early to retire it without a good replacement, something that can carry a full armament and full tank of gas on the same trip would be nice though.
OH58D, question for you, since you are qualified as an sme in this.
Is a dedicated scout helo necessary? Can similar results be had with multi ship formations of longbows mixed in?
Thank you for your years of service. Every time I read your posts, I think of the night hawk pilot named Bear assigned to rainbow in the tom clancy book rainbow six.
Before it was reflagged as 2/6 Cav, 1-25 AVN was an "Attack" battalion comprised of OH-58Ds. They replaced the last Cobras in the Army's inventory in 1999.
My last unit (2-17 CAV) operated as a stand alone scout-recon-attack squadron. All depends on how the deployment is set up and the mission. Three troops of Kiowa Warriors makes for some nice offensive capability.
Kiowa is due to be retired before too long. The Army decided that it's replacement would be a combination of Apache helos and drones, because they apparently weren't able to successfully buy a new scout helicopter. At least two separate attempts fell through due to technical and/or cost reasons.
The Saudis were evidently more successful.
This is it, and the big selling point is now that the Littlebird is made by Boeing it is compatible with the AH-64. I think the 64 gunner is going to be overworked doing his current job and flying a UAV.
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