Mulling over a KAC SR15 right now... what makes for a good competition AR15?

[Johnson184]

Tempted to buy myself an AR15 later this month or next and have my eye on a KAC SR15 since it seems to have such a great reputation. I'm thinking about trying out for competition shooting starting this summer, but I'm wondering what makes for a great competition AR15. What would you guys recommend in the $2000 range?

[tom12.7]

Competing in what?
KAC makes great rifles, but they may or may not be suited to what you want to do.

[mrosamilia]

As stated above not sure what type of competition you are contemplating, but I love mine. It is my camp and home defense rifle and I trust it completely.

[Johnson184]

Whoops sorry! There's an active 3 Gun Nation and USPSA scene where I live.

[tom12.7]

Whoops sorry! There's an active 3 Gun Nation and USPSA scene where I live.

Many of those guns are purpose built with different attributes depending on the accuracy requirements, distance, etc. SR-15's could be a good choice, or SR-15 based depending on many things.
Many 3 gun rifles, if built properly are tailored to that sport using specific components that are outside of what are considered "serious use" that this site is tailored to.

[Rohardi]

I don't shoot 3 gun, but I will say from a quality/function standpoint you will not be disappointed with the SR15. If you are doing 3 gun and need some longer accuracy, you could even look at the SR15 LPR with the 18 inch barrel. Regardless I don't think you can go wrong with the SR15.

[Tigereye]

Since you're looking at 3 gun and USPSA, you may find good info. at Brianenos.com.

Whoops sorry! There's an active 3 Gun Nation and USPSA scene where I live.

[guitarist1993]

The rule of thumb for most 3 gun long range targets is 3-4 MOA. This puts it well within the average rifle's mechanical capabilities, and KAC is obviously better than average. Honestly, most of what a 3 gun rifle needs to do is shoot smoothly and be reliable. People tend to get hung up on the group size of their rifle, but realistically, you'll spend more time at a match shooting paper and running. Unless you're shooting the Iron Man match in Idaho, it's unlikely that you'll be able to get the barrel hot enough during a single stage to radically shift your POI at range unless you're running a pencil barrel.

For comparison, I've won long range stages using a government profile PSA barrel with shots out to 600 because I knew my holdovers for Mk 262. And while there's certainly nothing wrong with having a smaller group, if you're looking for a rifle that's useful for more than just gaming, the KAC is a solid bet.

[NWcityguy2]

For 3-gun, a stock KAC would be about as competitive as a stock anything else. Like my PSA Freedom for example, about as competitive as that. Now I'm not saying to buy one or the other, but any AR that is reliable and maneuverable is going to be about the same in it's factory configuration. When I shoot 3-guns, or host outlaw 3-guns with the local IDPA club, 4 moa is about the smallest target that ever gets shot at. That's because any targets smaller than that and it becomes competitive to take one quick shot at them and if you don't get lucky and hit it, to just take the penalty points and move on. When I design a stage, I like having clay pigeon head shots at 50-75 yards, full size poppers out to 200 yards, as well as C-zone silhouettes at that range too. Realistically those targets could be hit with any AR, shooting any bulk ammo that the rifle likes, from some kind of supported position like a 55-gallon drum or the hood of a car.

When looking at a good 3-gun rifle, the first thing it needs is an appropriate optic. A 1-4x scope or a red dot + magnifier are going to be fine inside 300 yards. Budget some money accordingly for that. The next thing to add to it is a muzzle break to reduce recoil. If you want to to be a dedicated 3-gun rifle then go with a pure comp and not a hybrid device. I have a Benny Hill Rolling Thunder on mine, but there are other good options. Any circular, multi-baffled comp will work, there is no magic bullet when it comes to a comp. Stay away from stuff like the JP recoil eliminator, because that will push you into Open class if your local clubs follow official equipment rules. If you want to use it for a variety of things then get something like PWS FCS556 or a YHM Phanton Comp-Brake so it won't be so annyoing to everyone around you. Those two things make up about 80% of a 3-gun rifles competitive advantage. If you want to keep the rifle "mil-spec-ish", you can always add a better trigger. If you want a dedicated gaming gun you'll want to get an adjustable gas port and start reducing the weight of the moving parts. Get an extended charging handle too.

If you have money to spend, a JP-15 is the way to go. It has all the features you want from the factory. If you are trying to save money, really any chrome lined upper with a comp and optic will work. Free float is nice but not absolutely necessary. If you are dead set on the KAC, get the KAC. In practical shooting, if it shoots bullet then the rest is up to you.

This is my competition rifle and I can't have much more than $800 in it minus the optic. I'll out shoot people using rifles that are twice the cost, which goes to show you can't buy wins.

[guitarist1993]

You make a good point factoring in the optic. If you're gonna shoot limited (why would you want to?) then it's a non factor. But Tac Scope is much more enjoyable IMO, so if you don't already have glass that needs a home, you might consider factoring that cost in.

And while I did say above that it's not required to have a barrel that shoots lights out, I did eventually move to a heavy stainless barrel as my skill level exceeded my old rifle. For comparison, I have about 1800 into this rifle, before the scope. Do I shoot better with this than with my old PSA? Yes, but it's not $1000 better.

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh440/scottydoe13579/Mobile%20Uploads/20140820_121213_zpstdjab5mh.jpg (http://s546.photobucket.com/user/scottydoe13579/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140820_121213_zpstdjab5mh.jpg.html)

The big decisions are what division you'll be shooting, what your skill level is now, and what the rest of your gear looks like. It's easy to sink a lot of cash into the rifle, but honestly, high quality pistols and shotguns often make more of a difference. A constant theme at every match I've been to has been 'Shoot what you already own, then start making purchases based upon your performance'. So while the KAC is doubtless a great rifle, it might not be the most important purchase you could make to get into 3 gun. YMMV

[turnburglar]

While knights certainly makes a nice rifle, what are you getting on a sr15 that a lower cost rifle doesn't do? Personally iv kinda realised optics are more important than a roll stamp on a good AR. Simply put: I'd rather have a bcm+optics than a kac with iron sights.

[Failure2Stop]

A pure competition rifle benefits most from a task oriented optic, a handguard that is as long as possible and can easily be gripped when braced on a barricade, a magwell that enables a very fast reload, controls that are easily accessed, a brake and recoil system that allows the shooter to accurately place rapid shots, and overall is accurate enough and light enough.

A more precise rifle/ammo combination that runs the gun will be better than a less precise combination, as it will let the shooter get away with less precise reticle placement, and will reduce the wind variable. All of that is irrelevant if the gun doesn't work reliably with that ammo.

Frankly, it doesn't require a high-end rifle to be competitive in 2 or 3-gun competition unless at the upper level. The biggest difference between shooters is really not the rifle, but individual skill with their rifle. One thing that the SR-15 is going to give you over most other options is that it will last for around 20,000 rounds with some minor part and spring maintenance. You will shoot $5k-$10k in ammo before needing another barrel and bolt, which means that you will easily shoot a few seasons with the same rifle, while being able to put in a significant amount of training to get to the upper level of performance.

At the end of the day, the SR-16 is not made to be a 3-gun rifle, it's made to out-perform the M4 for government use. It does not achieve that goal by being low-cost, but rather by using advanced design and material selection to offer higher life-cycle value. The SR-15 is the commercially available version.

I really like the new SR-15 Mod 2 LPR. Probably overkill for 2 or 3-gun, but very accurate and nimble.


Just in case anyone can't see my sig line, I am an employee of Knight's Armament Company.

[mpom]

If you go to a 3G match and watch, then ask questions, you will get the info you are looking for. KAC is great, but no one is winning 3G matches with them, because there are better suited carbines/rifles for that game. JP is the top to the heap, in price and performance. Maine requirements are accuracy, soft recoil and muzzle stability for fast transitions. Rifle gas is popular, although the Stretch 16, with an intermediate gas system is gaining popularity. Believe a SR15 with a good muzzle brake and trigger would be a decent setup, along with a good 1X4 or 1X6 scope, suited for 3G. As has been said above, BE.com is a good site for 3G info.

[Bluedreaux]

Before I started making any sort of $1K+ purchases based on internet advice, I'd ask for a few other answers along with the advice...

First, before I take anybody's gear advice I want to know if they're any good. It seems like the people who do the least comment the most on threads like this. Enos is a great example of that, look at who has a lot of posts recommending gear and then click the USPSA link in the sig line. The C Class shooters talk the most. And no offense to all the C Class shooters out there, but I don't want their advice. I couldn't care less what they think. 3Gun doesn't have the classification system like USPSA, but "I beat some guys at a local match" just doesn't cut it for me. Start asking what matches people have shot and how they placed or see if they've posted any match videos to watch to see who you're dealing with.

And you've gotta realize that 3Gun / 2Gun isn't nearly as standardized as the pistol sports are, especially with all of the outlaw matches. Within 45 minutes of home I can shoot 3Gun three weekends a month, and all three matches are completely different in what you need to win. One match is a 3GN club with their typical super fast, straightforwards stages. Another is shot completely in pistol bays with your longest shot being around 40 yards. But they score their paper targets like IDPA, so accuracy is a lot more important than typical 3Gun. And their equipment rules are just bizarre, completely different than any other club. Another local club has almost all of their rifle shots at 100 yards and they shoot to 500 yards every month. So you've gotta ask what kind of match people are shooting and see if their experience will even translate to what you'll be doing.

I have no experience with an SR-15, so won't comment on it's suitability for what you need. And without knowing what kind of stages your range will have set up, an answer on what equipment you need is hard to give. An AR with a dedicated comp, gassed and buffered to be smooth and a decent trigger are usually good advice across the board.

[NWcityguy2]

Umm, yeah. I don't fully understand the point of your post, because you don't really say why you're different than the wide group of shooters that you don't recommend listing to.

The competitive difference between a good AR and a purpose driven 3-gun AR, if they both use the same optic and comp, is not that much. The competitive difference between a reasonably priced 1-4x optic and a much more expensive 1-6x optic is not that much. For 3-gun, the gun handling and shooting skills are so important, that the difference between good and great guns isn't that much. For all of those clubs which you *can* shoot at, the reality is the better shooter has the advantage.

[TehLlama]

Saying an SR-15 isn't awesome at dedicated three-gun competition is like complaining that trophy trucks aren't that great at rallycross - they're so impressive that even outside their primary strength, they're going to be more than adequate for the skillset of 90% of people who shoot 3G/2G competition. A lot of the guys who spend a ton of time posting about how much marginal gain they're getting out of piles of go-fast parts would poo-poo the SR-15 because it's only mostly as good. In the same way that I'm completely sure I could compete in tac iron with top of the line stuff and get humiliated by Jerry Miculek even if he was using a vintage lever gun and airweight .380, until you're at the competitive level where you're functionally an SME on dedicated hardware, the SR-15 is going to be more than adequate - and it does so much more. If you ever push beyond the accuracy capability, and find somewhere with lots of longer range stages, then the LPR upper becomes another interesting consideration, but the majority if 3Gun/2Gun competitions, guys who can shoot will show up with their MK18's and be surprised that they're finishing at least halfway up the order, despite bringing the 'wrong' equipment.

[Bluedreaux]

The competitive difference between a reasonably priced 1-4x optic and a much more expensive 1-6x optic is not that much.

Sure it is. For someone who wants to be competitive in 3Gun the eyebox, clarity and FOV advantages offered by the more expensive optics are legitimate and noticeable.

For reference I have experience with Leupold 1-4, 1.25-4, 1.5-5, VX6 1-6, Mark 6 1-6, Trijicon 1-4, Vortex 1-6, Burris 1-4 and 1.5-6, Busnell 1-6.5 and 1-8.5, and a Weaver 1.5-6(?) -- that I can remember offhand.

I've settled on the VX6 Firedot for myself as the best combination of quality and cost, but it'll be getting their new 1-6 reticle this summer.

The same could be said about your comment on a "good" AR and a purpose built competition gun. There are noticeable and useful advantages in the purpose built gun, beneficial even to the mid-level shooter. I've seen the differences on a timer enough to know it exists.

My 3Gun experience includes top 10% finishes at the national level and top 5 finishes at regional multi-state matches.