View Full Version : Precision Pistol Reloading - Educate Me
I did a search and came up with all rifle stuff.
Where I'm at:
I just bought a Dillon 550 and am reloading .40sw. I got everything pretty set to what I believe is a middle of the road load:
5.2gr Unique
COAL - 1.128-1.130
180gr berry's bullets (plated)
crimped just straight according to calipers - (maybe a slight crimp by eye and I just cant get the caliper on the hairline crimp?)
Shooting an M&P40
If I want to start trying to match a load to my gun, do you generally go long on COAL? How do you know when you've matched your chambers length? I've rechambered my reloads multiple times with no measurable setback if that means anything?
I want to change one thing at a time so what is the general way of going about this for pistol, do you find a bullet weight your gun likes first, then play with powder charge or vice-versa?
Anything to get me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated as this is new to me. I need to get a few more range trips in before I can start true testing as my skills have degraded slightly over winter, but my current load has been producing acceptable results (5" group @ 25yd offhand - same as my carry ammo which last year posted 4" when I was more dialed in).
5" at 25 yds is pretty darn good.
Is this your carry gun? Or one for USPSA? Just trying to make bughole ammo?
If it is a carry gun, I usually try to match my practice loads to my carry loads, in terms of bullet weight and velocity.
If it is for competition then you need to factor in whether or not you are trying to make a Power Factor.
Chrono your loads if you can, a small ES will translate into very repeatable results, both in terms of POA/POI and felt recoil.
As for what your gun likes, primers, bullets and powder all factor in. My Glock 22 loves Vihtavuori N340 with 180gr Montana Gold Flat Nose but hates Win 231 with the same bullet.
Also. congrats on your Dillon!
I have been loading reasonably accurate ammunition for PPC competition for the past 30+ years and I have not had much luck varying C.O.L. when shooting with a non-match pistol barrel. The two most important factors I observed when developing PPC pistol loads was sorting brass by head stamp and having a charge weight/C.O.L. combination that allowed the powder charge to fill at least 85% of the void in the case behind a seated bullet. In my experience a handgun projectile performs better with more bullet jump than a rifle projectile, so I gave up trying to get the projectile close to the rifling like I would with rifle reloads.
Over the years when I experimented with C.O.L. much longer than the maximum industry recommendation for a particular projectile, I observed the ammunition would not feed reliably in my semi-automatic handguns.
When using Berry's bullets, I had the best luck using the recommended C.O.L. listed on their website.
When loading .40 S&W for my Glocks, I obtained the best accuracy loading lead 180g .38-40 bullets.
Here is an example of the bullet: http://www.snscasting.com/38-40-180-grain-flat-point-500ct/
Gun is stock, it's my carry gun and competition pistol for now. Uspsa, and some IDPA to fill in if needed. I've shot 3"-4" groups with this gun - 5 shot groups, on different days with different ammo. Once I'm confident in my skill, I want to be in the low 3s(I'll try for better but not really expecting more as I was impressed with those).
Thanks for the input. I'll try those bullets and some different powders. Will grain make much difference? I'd like to stick with 180 if possible.
I have only loaded two bullet weights in lead, 155g and 180g. The .32-40 caliber 180g bullets were the most accurate for me at 850fps +/- 25fps. Accurate Arms # 5 and Winchester 540 were the most accurate powders for my .40 S&W loads.
If you are competing and are willing to sacrifice a little accuracy for faster follow up shots a 180g bullet at 725fps is a good load. It will give you a Power Factor of 130.
... my current load has been producing acceptable results (5" group @ 25yd offhand - same as my carry ammo which last year posted 4" when I was more dialed in).
Then why bother? That's 20-25moa, and you're hardly doing "precision" shooting if you're shooting offhand. Technique is going to matter WAY less than the inherent accuracy of the gun/ammo.
FWIW, I load 155gr SWC (lead) over 4.5gr Unique with Winchester primers for training with Glock 22s. I don't load ammo for social purposes, and I don't compete (yet).
When I do my part, it's accurate enough at 7-10 yards (1 magazine = one big ragged hole), and I can easily hit a 8-1/2"x14" silhouette at 25yds.
I've never bothered looking for "precision" accuracy. I settled on 4.5gr of Unique because anything less didn't cycle the guns when they're dirty. I don't have my notes here, but the energy is about exactly half of Speer Gold Dot 155gr.
I experimented with longer OALs, and I wound up with less velocity and stovepipes, so now I'm back to 1.135OAL (or whatever SAAMI spec is, I'd have to check my notes).
Is this your carry gun? Or one for USPSA? Just trying to make bughole ammo?
These are good questions...
I plan on benching the gun to get better numbers next time out. I just want to know what impacts the accuracy of pistol loads for informational purposes, as well as producing the best round I can for as little cost as possible.
For example, I was going to vary oal first, but now I'll just skip that based on your posts. Looks like powder and bullet design are the major players.
I plan on benching the gun to get better numbers next time out. I just want to know what impacts the accuracy of pistol loads for informational purposes, as well as producing the best round I can for as little cost as possible.
For example, I was going to vary oal first, but now I'll just skip that based on your posts. Looks like powder and bullet design are the major players.
I think you are on the right track. Sorting brass is very important. Different head stamps have different case capacities and different bullet pull, aka neck tension, numbers, which affect accuracy.
Load development for a pistol isn't nearly as hairy as Rifle. The biggest variable I found when I used to load pistol a lot was bullet quality.
Op, Berry's plated bullet is a good choice. One mistake to avoid is processing the bullet as if it were jacketed, which it's not. Though plated, this bullet can be damaged during seating in this manner: the case can size down the bullet's diameter(.401) to .400 or smaller. This smaller diameter violates a golden rule in reloading lead bullets for accuracy--that the bullet should be at least .001 greater than bore diameter. Commonly, bore diameters vary within a caliber. Your barrel has a nominal .400 diameter but would be within factory specs if it were smaller or larger. If larger, loading an unintentionally squeezed down bullet can lessen accuracy.
The Lyman M die is a specialized expander die that solves this problem. The expander has two dimensions. A lower mandrel extends into the case to increase case diameter after resizing. The top part bells the case mouth. Using an M die fixes many lead bullet issues.
Looks like powder and bullet design are the major players.
Correct. Finding a quality bullet that your barrel "likes" will be the single-most significant contributor to accuracy/precision. I don't load for .40 S&W, but the most accurate 9mm projectiles that I have tested are the Hornady HAP bullets, and Hornady does make a 0.40 HAP bullet also.
Hornady 9mm HAP Bullet Accuracy.
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The biggest variable I found when I used to load pistol a lot was bullet quality.
Correct. Finding a quality bullet that your barrel "likes" will be the single-most significant contributor to accuracy/precision.
This is my understanding, too...
You should really check out the .40/10mm forum on Brian Enos' website.
BTW, Molon, it's really nice to have you (and your data!) back.
Thanks for the feedback.
Molon, after reading your vp9 thread, I looked at those bullets and will probably pick some up. Btw, what's your setup for testing a service pistol accuracy? Do you just bench the gun with iron sights?
I have a M&P 9 Pro and tried 115, 124, 135, and 147gr bullets before finding that my gun prefers the 135gr. I shoot either Black Bullets Int'l or Bayou Bullets 135gr RN and both manufacturers offer small sample packs for experimenting. There is really good info. at Brianenos.com, as mentioned above.
If I were loading for accuracy, plated bullets wouldn't be my first choice.
If I were new, starting out, plated and lead wouldn't be my first choices for any reason other than cost as they take a little more care in equipment selection and setup than jacketed.
As mentioned, people, particularly in .40 tend to run undersized dies to get rid of any supposed bulge from Glock'ed cases. Without something like the Lyman M die previously mentioned, you tend to undersize the bullets during seating leading to horrid or at least worse than factory accuracy. In addition, they're more sensitive to over-crimping.
My steps for accurate pistol loads are:
1.) Buy a good jacketed bullet. While Hornady HAP are excellent, they're pricey for regular practice. I'd go for Zeros if you can find them or Precision Delta for price and availability.
2.) Buy a VV powder compatible with my intended use and do proper load development, including OAL. Longest isn't always best, BTW.
3.) Use same headstamp brass, once fired for serious work, not multi-time fired.
4.) Make sure you're seating the bullet absolutely straight
5.) Don't over-crimp
6.) Make sure your primers are seated fully and consistently
If you do those things you should have good ammunition.
Thank you. Can you explain what you mean by "undersize the bullets during seating" and how it happens?
Also, to ensure the bullet is seated straight, the die should do this correct? Or will angle when placing the bullet on the case by hand have an effect?
Thank you. Can you explain what you mean by "undersize the bullets during seating" and how it happens?
It's caused by stuffing a relatively soft lead bullet into a tightly sized case. Then the bullet is sized down a little. So when it's fired, it's not tightly fit into the lands and grooves.
(Leave lead bullets for shooters over 80 years old.)
(Leave lead bullets for shooters over 80 years old.)
Easy does it. I may have as many miles on me as someone who is 80, but I am not nearly that old yet. ;)
Lead bullets are less expensive than jacketed bullets and you can send a lot more rounds down range for the same money. That's why I shoot a lot of lead reloads out of .38 Spl. and .45 ACP. That being said, you can't argue with the accuracy some people get at 50 yards with a good 9mm jacketed bullet.
If you want to shoot a ragged hole at 50 yards with a .40 S&W, keep an eye out for the gray haired old fart who has already done the load development and pick his brain. That's how I came up with a good starting point for .38 Spl. and 45 ACP PPC loads that shoot well at 50 yards.
If you come up with a good .40 S&W load, please share it with us. I was never able to come up with a precise load and was only able to manage 2" groups at 25 yards with my recipes. 50 yard groups ran in the 6"-7" range.
Haha, okay. I will if I can get that accurate myself. I have a lot of berry's bullets left, but plan on buying a small number of HAPs to play with. Next thousand I buy will be xtreme bullets - good price and good reviews.
I don't want to mess with lead, and plated seem to be what most people go for due to price, accuracy, and ease.
My crimp is definately light. Should be hitting the range sometime this week and I'll bench it to see what I come up with. Got some brass grouped by headstamp as well so well see what happens. Thanks all!
Easy does it. I may have as many miles on me as someone who is 80, but I am not nearly that old yet. ;)
I know there's guys who make lead bullets sing like a mofo.... but I'm die hard against them and Bullseye powder etc.... I just picture old, overweight, gunwriters with ruger 6 shooters blasting away with them. ;)
If you want to shoot a ragged hole at 50 yards with a .40 S&W, keep an eye out for the gray haired old fart who has already done the load development and pick his brain. That's how I came up with a good starting point for .38 Spl. and 45 ACP PPC loads that shoot well at 50 yards.
Those guys are here:
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=73
Others have mentioned setting up your dies so that you do not deform the bullet when seating and crimping, which is good advice. Buy a kinetic bullet puller, they are about $20. Pull bullets from a couple of your reloads and check for deformation. If the sides of the bullets have slight scratches from seating and crimping, you should be in good shape. If you see more damage than scratches on the sides of the bullets, you should take a look at your sizing and crimping die adjustments.
Thank you. Can you explain what you mean by "undersize the bullets during seating" and how it happens?
Also, to ensure the bullet is seated straight, the die should do this correct? Or will angle when placing the bullet on the case by hand have an effect?
By undersize, I mean that .401" bullet typically gets squeezed down to .400" or less. This can happen to lead or plated bullets for several reasons. Usually it's either undersized brass that is harder than the softer lead/plated bullet that will down size it while seating. This condition can happen with standard dies or undersized dies, but undersized dies are a big culprit. For jacketed bullets, the copper is tougher than the brass and it will typically expand the case during seating, even if it's undersized, so less care and die selection is needed and it makes jacketed bullets more forgiving.
People also like to run a Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) in .40 and other calibers to eliminate "Glock bulge" at the bottom of the case or to clean up other process errors. Post-sizing like this will also undersize plated and lead bullets, which are oversized. Die selection and setup helps here. See some of the previous recommendations for lead/plated.
Finally, you can actually undersize a portion of the bullet by over-crimping. If you pull the bullet and there is an obvious crimp ring, you're over-doing it. If you damage the plating, same thing. Just make sure you're returning the case mouth to a straight condition, not actually pressing the brass into the bullet by more than a thousandth or so in .40 or 9mm. Look at Molon's rounds for an example of what they should look like on your crimp. Depending on the thickness of your brass, you're looking for a measurement on your calipers at about .377" or .378" or so in 9mm, although this varies.
Placement of the bullet (straight onto the case) is less critical in pistol than rifle ammo, however, if it's bad enough it'll effect accuracy all the same. Pistol dies, unlike some rifle dies, don't have a sleeve that guides the bullet onto the seating stem straight, which reduces runout. Pistol dies usually won't correct this issue (runout) and if the bullet is not placed straight onto the case, it will induce runout when seated. I've found this is a greater issue with lead than jacketed. While less critical, I've found seating them straight improves the ammo when shooting for maximum accuracy.
So much info... thank you.
I pulled a bullet, 3 thousandths indent at the crimp, stupid obvious. (Could not tell until pulled)
I'll back it off. Bullets did not undersize by seating though.
Fwiw, I'm using dillon carbide pistol set (3-die).
I think I got the crimp set. I pulled bullets with pliers (buying a kinetic puller next trip to the shop), and there is a faint line you have to REALLY look for to see, calipers read .001 less diameter at crimp.
I think I got the crimp set. I pulled bullets with pliers (buying a kinetic puller next trip to the shop), and there is a faint line you have to REALLY look for to see, calipers read .001 less diameter at crimp.
Sounds like you've got it very close. I look for a crimp measurement that is bullet diameter + 2*case wall thickness +/- .001". This is assuming use of non-mixed head stamp brass of course. It's a difficult measurement to take correctly at times, however, and can vary with case length.
That's another point actually. Your case length is important for consistency on the amount of taper crimp. I don't know anyone that actually goes to this level of detail, but if you just want to geek out, you want a consistent case length. Typically in 9mm the longer the better, like .750". However, I just deal with this by buying good brass in the first place. I've never trimmed a pistol round and they typically shrink after firing.
Another quick check to get you calibrated for what it should look/feel like is to compare your ammo to a factory round. You can (usually) feel a very defined case wall edge on a new factory round.
Okay. Discounting the called flier(last shot, vision blurred and i should have rested, but rushed the shot), I've shot my best group ever at 25yds (and it a was offhand). I'm happy with this for all my uses. Once I get to a range with a proper bench, I'll update this thread. Being a stock M&P, I'm not expecting much better, but we will see.
I need more practice before I can tell the true accuracy as well, but this got me excited. Thanks for the input, all.
All rounds for this group were of the same headstamp.
load:
180gr berry's plated bullets
5.2 gr unique
CCI sm pistol primers
1.130 OAL.
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh63/vinnyraf870/Mobile%20Uploads/20150412_175030_zps2r9a9nfx.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/vinnyraf870/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150412_175030_zps2r9a9nfx.jpg.html)
mizer67
there is a die that has a sliding sleeve that helps align your bullet when seating it, It is the Hornady seating die, I use those pistol dies for all my pistol reloads, also use the M-9 Lyman on all my cases, jacketed rounds also, this helps ensure the bullets get a straight start. Then I use the Hornady taper crimp die to bring the case diameter down to .378. Hope this information helps.
Shooting technique will trump reloading technique for most people shooting handguns offhand. If you're concerned about the accuracy potential of your gun/ammo combination, use a Ransom rest, though those too are somewhat subject to human interaction.
I did a search and came up with all rifle stuff.
Where I'm at:
I just bought a Dillon 550 and am reloading .40sw. I got everything pretty set to what I believe is a middle of the road load:
5.2gr Unique
COAL - 1.128-1.130
180gr berry's bullets (plated)
crimped just straight according to calipers - (maybe a slight crimp by eye and I just cant get the caliper on the hairline crimp?)
Shooting an M&P40
If I want to start trying to match a load to my gun, do you generally go long on COAL? How do you know when you've matched your chambers length? I've rechambered my reloads multiple times with no measurable setback if that means anything?
I want to change one thing at a time so what is the general way of going about this for pistol, do you find a bullet weight your gun likes first, then play with powder charge or vice-versa?
Anything to get me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated as this is new to me. I need to get a few more range trips in before I can start true testing as my skills have degraded slightly over winter, but my current load has been producing acceptable results (5" group @ 25yd offhand - same as my carry ammo which last year posted 4" when I was more dialed in).
MegademiC
I'm 65 years old and have chronologically gifted eyesight, meaning I wish they made Braille pistol sights. http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/wheelchair_zps390426ec.gif
Your question was "Precision Pistol Reloading - Educate Me"
My answer is simple, if you want more precision and smaller groups, then stand closer to the target, :sarcastic:
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/40SampW001_zpsfc7e7b54.jpg
Above 50 rounds with a .40 Glock shooting "Lite" loads with Rainier plated bullets.
Make Right With a “.40 Lite”
http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/ammunition_40lite_091806/
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