View Full Version : Recommendations for .45ACP pistol.
buckshot1220
07-11-08, 21:50
Looking to buy a pistol for home defense, no carry necessary. With the flood of new .45's I wanted to see what you guys would recommend. I have a few preferences I'll list, if you think you have something that might fit the bill post it up and I'll take a look.
Preferences:
1.) SA or SA/DA, no DAO or internal hammers please.
2.) Barrel no more than 4.5" length, I just don't like "long" barrels.
3.) Rail to mount a light would be a plus.
4.) 10 round capacity.
5.) Reliability thats been somewhat proven
So now that everyone knows I'm looking for a gun that doesn't exist...J/K. My brain is shot from research, and though I have a few in mind I just can't seem to make a decision. Figured I would get some opinions from you guys and use some of feedback to help steer me in the right direction. Some of the ones that seem to fit are Springfield 1911 Champion Operator and Beretta PX4. Any and all responses are appreciated. I'm new to handguns, feel free to "school" me I won't take offense:-)
Sounds like you are looking for an HK45. If you get one and don't like it, you can give it to me. I'll pay the shipping ;) .
I think the HK 45 is more proven than the PX4.
Greetings and Welcome aboard the M4C buckshot1220!
Way to go on this thread, since I'm also looking for a .45 ACP semiautomatic pistol which will be my first.
Hope you find what you're looking for and Enjoy!
you can go wrong with 1911 for home use ,my uncle kept his after korea that is his go to gun and shoots it like it is a part of him:D and welcome to M4carbine glad to have you here
I have no experience with it but take a look at the Sig220 Carry series ;)
exitinyourhead
07-12-08, 08:22
I would highly reccomend the HK45 butt...
The m&p is much much less expensive and in the midsize seems like a much smaller platform without too much felt recoil because of it.
my HK45 is part of my home defense/shtf package so I don't really mind the size of it, but the pistol with an x300 weapon light can probably be seen from space. It's big and nasty.
I don't think I've ever gone more than about 5,000 rounds without cleaning my M&P ... stop exaggerating, it makes me sound like I don't take PM seriously. :D
Without getting into a debate about SFA vs. DA/SA vs. SAO, etc., in response to the OP's question:
The HK45 meets all of your requirements, gives you the option of both DA and SA carry, and comes from a line of proven semiautos. Some of the most well respected folks in the industry helped design it (Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn foremost). They're not inexpensive, but they have all the features you asked for.
If you do a search of the Handguns section here, you'll find a number of reviews from members who've bought the HK45. To the best of my recollection, every single one has been positive.
buckshot1220
07-12-08, 08:56
Thanks for all the replies, a lot of good info for me to go on. I noticed that HK makes a 45 Compact (HK45C) that I think is a little closer to the size I'm looking for and they make optional 10rd mags, seems like a winner.
Also, since the M&P was brought up I did a little more digging and realized that they are available with thumb safeties, a feature I like. At first I thought they were like Glocks w/o a safety, that's why I chose to stay away. Nothing against Glocks or Glock owners, I just like having a safety other than my finger.
Any thoughts on the FNP45. I seems a bit big for me, but just wondering if anyone has any experience with it.
I've eliminated the PX4 due to lack of reports that prove reliability in adverse conditions, plus it seems no police or military units are jumping to carry these.
So it now looks like my choices are Springfield Champion Operator, HK45, HK45C or M&P45.
Thanks again, this has been a very warm welcome. If anyone has anything to add feel free, I'll check in often and of course I'll let you know what I eventually wind up with.
I bought a M&P45 SOCOM config with manual safety and had Dan Burwell do his magic (http://www.burwellgunsmithing.com/):
-4.5lb trigger, shorter take-up, no creep
-radius slide (melt job)
-nickel teflon (Robar NP3) slide and internal
-"sharskin" stipple all grip surfaces (front & back strap, dust cover, trigger guard & mag catch)
-polish feed ramp
-install 10-8 rear, triji front sight
-test for absolute reliability & sight in
-fits in most Glock 21 holsters (incl. Serpa and Safariland)
-10 rounders are factory standard (& cheap - $25 each now), 14 round mags are available now as well (but they are $50 and extend the grip profile by ~1")
RESULT:
As a rabid HK enthusiast & owner, I believe this config. far surpasses the HK45 for the same $ (all in ~$1,000):
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z302/mpardun/MPs_MandP45.jpg
...and you will have a unique custom piece with a better trigger, cheaper mags, US made, option of a middy (although HK45s will start to be made in USA by Wilcox this year).
Also NOTE: Several buddy's have attended Vickers classes and although he was integral in developing the HK45, he has endorsed (classes & in print) the M&P45 as a great choice as well.
Not to sound like a G&R fanboy, but Grant just posted the other day: M&P Pistol Sale (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16682).
The models w/ thumb safety and night sights would be right up your alley for an home defense pistol. And those are some good prices!
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-12-08, 09:17
HK45. In the words of Larry Vickers, the most tested, bomb-proof .45 out there.
buckshot1220
07-12-08, 09:19
MPARDUN: Kinda confused so I need a little clarification. How can it be DA/SA if there is no external hammer to cock to go between SA and DA, or do you have to change that internally rather than in an instant? I could be way off so please school me.
exitinyourhead
07-12-08, 09:20
I'd also recommend a trigger job on an M&P if you get one. I have matching full size 9mm M&P's, One has a trigger job and one doesn't and I was shockingly suprised at how much more accurate I am with the trigger job one than the standard.
exitinyourhead
07-12-08, 09:22
Not to sound like a G&R fanboy, but Grant just posted the other day: M&P Pistol Sale (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16682).
The models w/ thumb safety and night sights would be right up your alley for an home defense pistol. And those are some good prices!
yep and that's like half of what the HK45 goes for and I sure don't think the m&p is only half the gun.
MPARDUN: Kinda confused so I need a little clarification. How can it be DA/SA if there is no external hammer to cock to go between SA and DA, or do you have to change that internally rather than in an instant? I could be way off so please school me.
my bad, still waking up, no coffee yet...just manual safety - fixed post
... take a look at the Sig220 Carry series ;)
There have been lots of issues with the SIG 220 Carry lately (http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/4181041131?r=4581081131#4581081131). Even non-220 Carry issues with the ss milled slide SIGs are not immune. Bad batches of MIM takedown levers making the entire gun worthless until you change it out.
I would recommend a Made in Germany or Made in W.Germany SIG P220, stamped carbon steel slide and none of the extractor or MIM problems of the ss milled slide models.
JeepDriver
07-12-08, 17:32
There have been lots of issues with the SIG 220 Carry lately (http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/4181041131?r=4581081131#4581081131). Even non-220 Carry issues with the ss milled slide SIGs are not immune. Bad batches of MIM takedown levers making the entire gun worthless until you change it out.
I would recommend a Made in Germany or Made in W.Germany SIG P220, stamped carbon steel slide and none of the extractor or MIM problems of the ss milled slide models.
For what it's worth I own a 220 Carry. I have exactly 1000 rounds through it so far with 0 malfunctions. 900 rounds of 230gr ball, and 100 rounds of 230gr Ranger.
I guess I'm just one of the lucky ones. I was worried and had read all those threads on Sig Forum. I got a good deal on a 220 Carry SAO w/ Beavertail. I am so glad I jumped on that deal. I have an older 220 (1995 date coded) it too has been a very reliable gun.
We have an older 220 in rental at work, it's a popular rental and the only time it's been out os service was when it broke a recoil spring. Quick call to Sig and it was back in service.
The HK45 is a very nice pistol. We had a HK day at the range, and I had a chance to run 2 boxes through both the full size and the compact. Accurate and comfortable guns.
The XD 4" model is another one that I have spent some time shooting. We have one in rental at the range and I guess I've shot 200 rounds through it, and it's had thousands (maybe 10's of thousands) of rounds through it. We have had it in rental since the gun first came out.
The Beretta Storms that we have in rental require more cleaning then any of our guns. Hell, even the 1911's don't fail as much as the Beretta's. I;m not impressed with them at all. We only have the 9 and 40 in rental, but I don't think the 45's will be any different.
How many of you guys would put there 1911's in the safe and carry a M&P45? I've been thinking of dumping some cash into my Springfield Champion but have thought about buying a M&P45 instead.
buckshot1220 not trying to hijack. Just thought some of these answers might help you decide between the 1911 and the M&P45
buckshot1220
07-12-08, 18:28
bradb55, no worries I'm interested to see the answer to that question is also. No decisions for me as of yet, my interview isn't for a little while so I have some time before I need to make a deposit.
How many of you guys would put there 1911's in the safe and carry a M&P45? I've been thinking of dumping some cash into my Springfield Champion but have thought about buying a M&P45 instead.
buckshot1220 not trying to hijack. Just thought some of these answers might help you decide between the 1911 and the M&P45
It's like comparing an apple to an orange. I cut my teeth on 1911's and Hi-Powers. To me there is still nothing like a 5" 1911 in a good IWB holster...however, once you advance to looking at your handgun as a tool your prospective and needs may change. Initially I was hesitant about carrying a 1911 in a duty rig because of the abuse the gun would take. Then I thought about the reliabilty issues. I am not a gunsmith, and modern 1911's require alot of attention. I had resigned to the fact that I would carry the best tool for the job. That just so happens to be ugly, no non-sense polymer framed pistols. Still, my favorite pistol to shoot is a Gov't issue WWII Colt 1911A1. I love it. My choice for a serious defensive .45? An M&P45. Mine has been a fantastic gun. For the price it can not be beat.
So, you have to ask your self, "do I want a nice 1911?" or "am I looking for a serious defensive tool?"
A 1911 can be that gun for you if you are willing and prepared to maintain it. I am not, as much as I love them.
For me, I have found the best TOOLS to be my Glocks and the M&P. The M&P45 is seriously a great pistol. You would not hurt yourself by getting one.
On the other hand, if you don't own a 1911.... ..I will leave it at that.
How many of you guys would put there 1911's in the safe and carry a M&P45? I've been thinking of dumping some cash into my Springfield Champion but have thought about buying a M&P45 instead.
The answer to that has nothing to do with models. Your question is:
I have Gun One. I am thinking about switching to Gun Two. Should I?
In response, I'd ask you a bunch of questions:
Does Gun One run reliably?
Do you trust Gun One as your duty/carry weapon?
Do you shoot Gun One well?
Is Gun One comfortable enough and sized appropriately for you to carry every day?
Is Gun One old or getting worn out?
Is there some flaw or weakness with Gun One that you believe will be resolved by Gun Two?
Is there some feature or ability that Gun Two has which you want or need?
Do you believe Gun Two will be reliable and trustworthy?
Do you believe Gun Two will be comfortable and sized right for everyday carry?
Will the cost of Gun Two be worth the expense cf. spending that money on ammo, practice, and training with Gun One?
You can simplify this list by asking one question: "Will I be better off with Gun Two than Gun One?"
Any person in the market for a new .45 ACP handgun, who was not already wedded to the 1911 platform, would be very well served by the .45 ACP M&P.
bullitt5172
07-12-08, 22:12
After owning nearly every 45acp platform out there (M&P, HK45, G21 etc) there is only one that I continue to use - the 1911. I have two handgun platforms - 9mm Glocks and 45acp 1911's. I have no use for any other handguns, period.
After owning nearly every 45acp platform out there (M&P, HK45, G21 etc) there is only one that I continue to use - the 1911. I have two handgun platforms - 9mm Glocks and 45acp 1911's. I have no use for any other handguns, period.
I have come to much the same conclusion. 5" 1911's or Glock 17's for me. What did you not like about the other .45 ACP's?
I like the full size HK 45 alot but don't care for the HK 45c over the mid-sized M&P. The HK 45c just doesn't feel right to me with that large slide and small grip and the thumb safety is too large and in the way. Plus you give up two rounds over the mid-sized M&P .45. The M&P and beavertail provide a very nice low bore axis, index your grip on draw and reduce muzzle flip over the HK as well.
Thanks for all the replies, a lot of good info for me to go on. I noticed that HK makes a 45 Compact (HK45C) that I think is a little closer to the size I'm looking for and they make optional 10rd mags, seems like a winner.
Also, since the M&P was brought up I did a little more digging and realized that they are available with thumb safeties, a feature I like. At first I thought they were like Glocks w/o a safety, that's why I chose to stay away. Nothing against Glocks or Glock owners, I just like having a safety other than my finger.
Any thoughts on the FNP45. I seems a bit big for me, but just wondering if anyone has any experience with it.
I've eliminated the PX4 due to lack of reports that prove reliability in adverse conditions, plus it seems no police or military units are jumping to carry these.
So it now looks like my choices are Springfield Champion Operator, HK45, HK45C or M&P45.
Thanks again, this has been a very warm welcome. If anyone has anything to add feel free, I'll check in often and of course I'll let you know what I eventually wind up with.
I'm done with Sig until they get their QC act together.
There have been lots of issues with the SIG 220 Carry lately (http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/4181041131?r=4581081131#4581081131). Even non-220 Carry issues with the ss milled slide SIGs are not immune. Bad batches of MIM takedown levers making the entire gun worthless until you change it out.
I would recommend a Made in Germany or Made in W.Germany SIG P220, stamped carbon steel slide and none of the extractor or MIM problems of the ss milled slide models.
variablebinary
07-13-08, 06:06
Any person in the market for a new .45 ACP handgun, who was not already wedded to the 1911 platform, would be very well served by the .45 ACP M&P.
A month ago I would have called you crazy. Then I tested all the new .45's together all at once; FNP45, HK45, XD45, G21SF...
It wasnt even close. The M&P45 is an outstanding firearm...
I'm done with Sig until they get their QC act together.
Same. I barely regard SIG USA as a viable brand at this point and none of their products interest me...
bullitt5172
07-13-08, 09:24
I have come to much the same conclusion. 5" 1911's or Glock 17's for me. What did you not like about the other .45 ACP's?
None of them point and shoot as well as a 1911. The HK45 (and older USP) did nothing for me. I'm a Glock fan but the G21 is just too big. The new FN is equally as large. The M&P was probably the best of the non-1911's but it wasn't good enough for me to keep.
RogerinTPA
07-13-08, 10:14
I too drink the M&P .45 Kool Aid, owning the full sized one. It is the best value for the $. 1600 rounds so far and no malfunctions. That said, I am thinking of trading to the mid sized because like others have said, it feels better balanced. Save your money and get one, with a trigger job, and use the extra coin for mags/ammo/training before Nov gets here.
buckshot1220
07-13-08, 10:50
Some excellent responses here, really good info. Looks like I've narrowed it down to M&P45, HK45 and HK45C. From what I've read they are all reliable and offer the overall package I'm looking for. My hand is just gonna have to make the decision for me...
versus buying then selling try going to the range and see if someone is shooting what your interested in and put some rounds through it . I like 1911's but wonder why sprinfield XD isnt on the list ?
buckshot1220
07-13-08, 11:48
Only reason the XD isn't on the list is because I prefer to have a thumb safety. As far as shooting other people's at the range is concerned I'm still waiting for my permit so shooting pistols=NO NO. My range checks frequently also. At least here.
What a pain . dont have a problem like that around here
RogerinTPA
07-13-08, 17:43
Some excellent responses here, really good info. Looks like I've narrowed it down to M&P45, HK45 and HK45C. I plan on trying to hold a few this week, it's all gonna come down to how it fits in my hand and how well I can operate the controls. From what I've read they are all reliable and offer the overall package I'm looking for. My hand is just gonna have to make the decision for me...
Try and find a range to rent and shoot all three, then decide.
buckshot1220
07-13-08, 20:55
rharris2163, unfortunately I don't know of any ranges here that rent and with the pistol laws the way they are I don't know if it is even legally possible??? Anyone know? But since you brought it up I'm gonna look around. Worst case scenario I'm just a short drive from the PA border and I'm sure there are ranges that rent over there.
This thread is an aid to rounding out my choices. I've been to the dealers in my area to get a "hands" on "feel" of some of the guns mentioned. So in no particular order:
Smith and Wesson M&P45 (SKU: 109107)
Heckler & Koch HK45 Compact
1911 Commander Sized Variant
Too much information to absorb in a sitting. . .:D
RogerinTPA
07-13-08, 22:27
rharris2163, unfortunately in NY I don't know of any ranges that rent and with the pistol laws the way they are I don't know if it is even legally possible??? Anyone know? But since you brought it up I'm gonna look around. Worst case scenario I'm just a short drive from the PA border and I'm sure there are ranges that rent over there.
Sorry about your location buckshot1220, but you won't truly know if the weapon is for you until you fire them. If you buy the wrong one, you may end up having to sell it to get the one you should have bought, had you fired it. I live in the free state of FL. The ranges that rent guns are all over the place. I was at the range today and someone rented a WW II era .30 cal MG to fam fire full auto! My range regularly rents out full auto MP-5's, UZI's and M-4's, AK's, etc...:cool:
buckshot1220
07-13-08, 22:45
rharris2161, Why tease me?! Why??? I'm sensing a road trip to Florida to shoot an MP5:-)
I definitely understand what your saying and totally agree. Unfortunately some legal constraints may not let me test fire anything before I buy.
variablebinary
07-13-08, 23:59
This thread is an aid to rounding out my choices. I've been to the dealers in my area to get a "hands" on "feel" of some of the guns mentioned. So in no particular order:
Smith and Wesson M&P45 (SKU: 109107)
Heckler & Koch HK45 Compact
1911 Commander Sized Variant
Too much information to absorb in a sitting. . .:D
To be honest, I just shot both in one sitting a couple of days ago, and the HK45 just didnt shoot as well as the M&P45.
You'll need to shoot them side by side to understand what I mean...
Gutshot John
07-14-08, 08:25
Out of curiosity, how does the M&P 45 grip circumference (with the smallest adapter) compare to the G21SF or a 1911?
I tend to shy away from double-stack .45s but I'm always curious.
I don't have the exact measurements, but the M&P45 is just slightly greater in trigger reach circumference (which is the most meaningful way to determine grip size) than a 1911 with standard grips. That's using the smallest available backstrap for the M&P45, of course.
The G21SF isn't even close.
I haven't seen numbers on the HK45, but given the great modularity of the grip frame I'd imagine it's right in the same ballpark as the M&P45.
RogerinTPA
07-14-08, 10:13
rharris2161, Why tease me?! Why??? I'm sensing a road trip to Florida to shoot an MP5:-)
I definitely understand what your saying and totally agree. Unfortunately some legal constraints may not let me test fire anything before I buy.
Take a road trip to Orlando for summer vacation, drop the wife and kids off at Disney, and head for the range on International drive. Push all the Asian and Europeans tourist out of the way, pick your full auto weapon and blast away!:cool: Also, the SHOT Show is coming up next year so you might wanna plan around that too.
SWATcop556
07-14-08, 19:58
I'll be the first to admit I love the 1911 and I believe its the best all-around handgun........for me.
That being said, unless one is willing to spend the time/ money to fully understand the 1911 platform and how to address problems that WILL arise, I would highly recommend them to steer clear. Price of a properly tuned 1911 will run you the same as a M&P .45, extra mags, ammo, carry gear, and probably a few quality pistol classes.
When I carry for personal preference (off-duty) I always have a 1911 with me. When I'm at work I carry plastic.
There is a reason the 1911 is not a issued weapon for large departments. You would have to keep several qualified armorers on the range, where if you issue the M&P or Glock, you have very little maintenance and easy to replace parts with little to no fine tuning.
All that to say this........of your options listed the M&P .45 would be my choice.
Regardless of which you choose, stay safe, get good training, and good shooting!
To be honest, I just shot both in one sitting a couple of days ago, and the HK45 just didnt shoot as well as the M&P45.
You'll need to shoot them side by side to understand what I mean...
Will have to give the pair a tryout at the range then. Thanks!
buckshot1220
07-15-08, 16:29
So basically I think my purchase is going to be an HK, now it is just a question of which HK? I saw the USP Tactical .45 and it does not look as big as HK's website would lead you to believe.
buckshot -- Did you try the M&P45 with the smallest grip option or just the standard one? The gun comes with three (S, M, and L).
FWIW, I use the Crimson Trace Lasergrips and they make the mag catch release a bit of a stretch for me, as well, on the M&P9. But I prefer to reverse the catch and hit it with my trigger finger, so the problem is eliminated. This may or may not be an option you want to consider, as well.
You might like a slim-grip 1911 with bobTail . The cheapest will be a CZ stainless , then EdBrown and Nighthawk .
buckshot1220
07-15-08, 16:37
Good point, maybe I'll go back and see what backstrap was on it.
buckshot1220
07-15-08, 16:42
Gunut, looked at the 1911's and really like them but I think I want something that can go DA/SA not just SA. If I do go the 1911 route though, the Springfield Champion Operator is top of the list.
Love the HK 45 and shoot it as well if not better than the full size M&P .45 but the mid-sized M&P .45 is proving to be about perfect for me. In fact I think I need another one. I much prefer the lower bore axis and beavertail on the M&P for ergos and fast follow up shots.
To be honest, I just shot both in one sitting a couple of days ago, and the HK45 just didnt shoot as well as the M&P45.
You'll need to shoot them side by side to understand what I mean...
Preferences:
1.) SA or SA/DA, no DAO or internal hammers please.
2.) Barrel no more than 4.5" length, I just don't like "long" barrels.
3.) Rail to mount a light would be a plus.
4.) 10 round capacity.
5.) Reliability thats been somewhat proven
1)1911s, Sig P220, H&K .45, S&W M&P .45
2)Commander, P220, HK45, MP45
3)Some Commander, P220, HK45, M&P45
4)HK45, M&P45
5)HK45, M&P45
Only reason the XD isn't on the list is because I prefer to have a thumb safety. As far as shooting other people's at the range is concerned I'm still waiting for my permit so shooting pistols=NO NO. My range checks frequently also. At least here.
Within the last few months the XD has been out with a thumb saftey, very easy to use, Oh, it's ambi as well I looked at a new XD at a local shop that had the thumb saftey, My XD dosen't have it, I like it that way But S.A. is now offering either on XD's.. Just something else to consider...
buckshot1220
07-19-08, 21:36
Thanks again to everyone for their input and guidance. After careful consideration I decided to go with the HK45C. I seems to meet all my "requirements" and then some. I was able to find one at one of my local shops I frequent and put a deposit down today. I'll post of some pics when its in my hands.
AwaySooner
07-20-08, 00:25
Great choice. I know many like M&Ps here, and HK is quite a bit more expensive, but noone would have any problem taking a HK with them if SHTF. Now you can officially go hang out at hkpro.com. :D
Thanks again to everyone for their input and guidance. After careful consideration I decided to go with the HK45C. I seems to meet all my "requirements" and then some. I was able to find one at one of my local shops I frequent and put a deposit down today. I'll post of some pics when its in my hands.
FrankRochester
07-20-08, 13:05
After owning nearly every 45acp platform out there (M&P, HK45, G21 etc) there is only one that I continue to use - the 1911. I have two handgun platforms - 9mm Glocks and 45acp 1911's. I have no use for any other handguns, period.
Funny that you said that... Because I have come to the same conclusion.
Gutshot John
07-22-08, 12:32
I don't have the exact measurements, but the M&P45 is just slightly greater in trigger reach circumference (which is the most meaningful way to determine grip size) than a 1911 with standard grips. That's using the smallest available backstrap for the M&P45, of course.
I picked up an M&P 45 today based on Todd's recommendation. It's leftover from a local departments purchase. It has the manual safety (which I'd ordinarily avoid, except for its similarity to a 1911) and night-sights. It also has the mag safety, but I'll learn to deal in the meantime (hate dry-fire with mag in).
I have small hands and I've shied away from double-stack 45s as they were always too big for me. HK (USP and Tactical), Glock, CZ, I've tried them all and always went back to the 1911.
The M&P is significantly smaller than an HK and G21/SF. It is the only double-stack .45 I've held that did not feel overwhelmingly big. I don't like buying guns, simply based on feel, but it definitely fits.
Based on dry-fire, the index finger easily reaches the trigger, a little more takeup than I like but a very crisp break, reset is shorter and more positive than a Glock. I really like this stock trigger much better than my Glocks'. I'll still keep my custom Glocks in 9mm and my 1911, but if you're looking for a stock, poly double-stack .45, I agree with that the M&P is probably the cost-effective way to go.
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