Vickers Tactical Advanced Pistol/Carbine -- 7/11/08 AAR

[John_Wayne777]

Note: My recollections here are a bit fuzzy. I might have some of the drills out of order…if so, someone please correct me.

Day 1 –

Training day one was dedicated entirely to pistol instruction…something it turns out most of us needed pretty badly. Mr. Vickers began the day by having us partner up for standard ball and dummy drills. We also did timed ball and dummy drills and command ball and dummy drills, both of which ratcheted up the pressure on the shooter. Mr. Vickers also had us do some dry-fire trigger reset work. We then did a (don’t call it a) walkback drill where yours truly managed to flame out in spectacular fashion, scoring precisely ZERO hits on the steel target.

We then moved on to command drills, coming up from the low ready on command and firing a proscribed number of rounds with proper followthrough, then a scan and assess. For those who don’t know what “proper followthrough” is, I’ll explain. In real life there won’t be a set number of rounds you shoot to stop a bad guy. You’ll have to shoot a threat until the threat stops, meaning that after every shot you should be prepared to deliver another one if it is necessary. This means re-acquiring the sights and preparing to properly squeeze the trigger again. Often on the range you see guys shoot the set number of shots and then instantly drop the weapon off-target as soon as the last shot in the string hits the paper. This is another one of those bad range habits that desperately needs to be broken. I’ve often said that there’s no prize for being the first guy back in the holster, (which is certainly a true statement…) frankly dropping the weapon instantly after that last shot in the string is just a more subtle form of being the first guy back in the holster. To borrow one of Mr. Vickers’ pet phrases, I need to “delete that sh*t”.

One of the things I appreciate about Mr. Vickers’ instruction is that he doesn’t let you get away with “little things” like that. His instruction is based on the idea that you are preparing to use a weapon in a situation where some dumbass is trying to kill you and he tries his best to get you to approach every aspect of your shooting from that perspective. To some it may seem like no big deal if someone doesn’t do a proper followthrough…but if the paper target was instead some sort of scumbag intent on doing you harm and you drop your weapon after three shots, you are putting yourself behind the curve. If the threat is still ongoing, you now have to mentally say “Oh crap! He’s not down! I need to shoot him some more!” You must then bring the weapon back up on target, align the sights, and then properly squeeze the trigger. It is much better to prepare for another shot that you determine is un-necessary than to try and play catch-up after you’ve mentally checked out of the fight.

Accuracy during the command drills was also an issue, although most shooters managed to keep the majority of their shots in the black on those tiny little NRA bullseye targets. This was an “advanced” course and (in my opinion at least) you could tell it was an advanced course. Overall the accuracy was pretty darn good from most shooters, although some of us took an occasional trip on the short bus and still others (namely me) seemed ready to board it for the duration.

We went through a number of other drills during the day including a modified version of “the test”, which I believe will be my new favorite drill. “The test” in its original form is 10 rounds kept within the 10 ring of the NRA bullseye target at 10 yards in a 10 second time frame. The modified 1911 neutral version we did was 8 rounds in the 10 ring from 10 yards in 10 seconds…from the draw. This drill is a kick in the nuts. Even though that 10 ring is very small, most shooters managed to keep most of their rounds inside the 10 ring….and this is a class where most people are using Glocks. I believe a couple of people managed to shoot this drill clean….but I could be wrong about that. (I’m having a hard time recalling some of the details either because it was hot and I was too busy fighting with my equipment and swearing at myself, or because I was too traumatized by another one of NCPatrolAR’s stories to have adequate memory function.)

Another tough drill was 2 shots from the draw in 3 seconds at the 5 yard line (repeat 5 times)…2 shots from the draw at the 10 yard line in 4 seconds, (x5) and 2 shots from the 15 yard line in 5 seconds. (x5) The goal here was to keep all shots within the black. I was doing extremely well until the last couple of runs at the 15 yard line where I managed to cluck it all up with 5 shots in the white because I failed to pay proper attention to trigger control. I believe there were also shooters who shot this drill clean.

There were also two more (don’t call it a) walkback drills during the day, and I displayed unparalleled consistency by flaming out in spectacular fashion on them just as I did on the first one…failing to score a single hit on the steel C-zone target the entire day.

Overall we didn’t fire many rounds today. For those who have never trained with Mr. Vickers before, his philosophy on training is to focus on the QUALITY of the shots you fire rather than the quantity. You are held accountable for every shot you fire, and he uses the NRA bullseye targets as a means of magnifying errors. If you aren’t properly controlling the trigger or aligning the sights when you shoot at those bullseye targets, it will show up plain as day. You really have to be doing everything right to consistently keep your shots inside the black. This is work. Hard work….and trust me when I tell you that you’ll learn more with 200 rounds fired according to Mr. Vickers philosophy than you can imagine. This is, I believe, one of the reasons that he has so many repeat students. He makes you work and that work makes you a better shooter.
Unfortunately it doesn’t look like we’ll be able to do low light training in this course because of concerns about the neighbors.

Equipment –

For this course I decided that I was going to run a Glock 17 as my sidearm, and since today was all pistol I got to spend a lot of quality time with my G17. If you don’t know already, I hate Glocks. I find them to be without a doubt THE most difficult handguns to shoot well that I’ve ever tried. I can pick up a stock Beretta 92 or DA/SA Sig pistol and generally perform significantly better with those than I can with a Glock that I’ve made some mods to. I find that in my hands Glocks have precisely ZERO margin of error…meaning that if I don’t do everything exactly right I miss my intended target. They also chop up the web of my hands, requiring me to either have a grip reduction or use a gadget like the Glock Tail to shoot them without needing stitches. Of course, Mr. Vickers spotted the Glock Tail on my G17 during the AK course and asked me if a badger had been chewing on my handgun. Apparently my attempt to trim the Glock Tail using a utility knife wasn’t very aesthetically pleasing….

So if I hate them, why use one in this course? Well, there are a couple of reasons. Firstly, Glocks are the “universal handgun”. Glocks are in most police holsters in the US and as Ken Hackathorn says, if you go almost anywhere in the world and they hand you a pistol, it’s most likely going to be a Glock. If you want to be a well rounded shooter you need to learn how to use one. The second and most important reason is to put me outside of my comfort zone. You don’t learn anything when you are comfortable, and I’m here to learn. I figure that if I use the most uncomfortable, unforgiving platform for my personal tastes and learn to run it to the high level of proficiency that Mr. Vickers demands that I will be improving my skill and ability with the platforms I *do* use more naturally. If you want to build muscle, you have to lift weights that are heavy. If you want to build your shooting skill, you have to be stretched and stressed….and I’m pretty much there whenever I’m holding a Glock. I know I could have performed better on a number of drills had I been using my 1911 or my M&P 9mm or even my Beretta 92…but this ain’t a beauty pageant. While I don’t really want to look like a window-licking dumbass and I really don’t enjoy the sensation of losing drills to other people in the class by margins wide enough to drive a tank through, my main goal in being here is to learn my limits and to hopefully begin to push beyond them.

Miscellaneous interesting stuff –

SinnFéinM1911 brought along a new FN .45 handgun that looks to have some promise. I’m sure Templar will post pictures, but the best way I can describe it is the FNP “tactical” model. Think of the USP .45 tactical as compared to the normal USP and you’re on the right track. SinnFéinM1911 graciously gave us the opportunity to have some trigger time on the handgun and it proved to be very accurate. One shooter was literally shooting a one hole group. The trigger reach was too long for me and I personally feel that the trigger could use some cleaning up (it’s still a pretty good trigger, but I think the folks at FN have the capacity to improve upon what we tried) and at least for my hands it could use a couple of areas dehorned…..but I think the weapon has real potential. At the price point being discussed I think it will be a hit, especially when one considers that it comes from the factory ready to accept a Dr. Optic red-dot. That’s unique in the gun world.
Mr. Vickers has some upcoming projects and ideas that are not yet ready for public consumption but that I believe are going to be a big hit. I can’t wait to see them come to life.

I’ll post revisions and additions when my brain starts working again.

[GaryG]

J.W, a most-excellent review! Can't wait to read about days 2&3!

[Sam]

Thanks for taking the time to post your account of the first day. That's a lot of typing after a hot day on the range shooting those tough little bullseyes. Tell the Milfmasta (NCPatrolAR) to go easy on those stories. Looking forward to your day 2 report.

BTW, I call those "instantly lowering the gun" after a shot, the "collapse". I see many does it at IDPA matches and during training events. Don't do it.

[tjcoker]

Keep it coming this weekend. I love reading these AAR's of LAV classes. They always remind me of my time training with him and make me look forward to my next class.

[Jay Cunningham]

Thanks for another detailed AAR.

I found myself shooting the infamous Dot Torture drill/test a couple of days ago and I found myself following through to the ground and 360 scan/assessing after every individual engagement. Made for a lengthy drill - but well worth it.

[UDT]

Thanks, for a nice AAR.

[macman37]

Great writeup as usual J_W777!

jim

[John_Wayne777]

Day 2 –

Day two was dedicated mostly to carbine. We began the day by zeroing our carbines, a process that took a little bit of time. Zeroing is a pain in the neck but it’s a necessary evil if you hope to have any accuracy later in the day. We then moved on to a bullseye carbine drill:

Begin standing and go to prone at the 50 yard line, fire 10 shots in 10 minutes. Then begin standing and go into the sitting position and fire 10 rounds in 45 seconds. Begin standing, go to kneeling and fire 10 rounds in 45 seconds. Now move to the 25 and do 10 rounds standing in a set number of seconds. (I forget exactly how many seconds for this section)

We couldn’t get through this relatively short drill (we had to have two relays because of the number of people in the class) without equipment casualties. One weapon had numerous chambering issues most likely because of an improperly sized chamber, IIRC. Another weapon snapped a bolt in half shortly after. Both were relatively new weapons that had run ok for a few hundred rounds prior to coming to the course. This prompted Mr. Vickers to give a brief lesson on equipment choices essentially telling the class that if they want a DI AR style weapon, buy a Colt 6920 and leave the major functional parts of the weapon (barrel, bolt, gas system, bolt carrier, trigger group) ALONE. Adding a rail, lights, optics and the like is fine, but don’t mess with the engine of the weapon. This, of course, was not the first time that I’ve heard Mr. Vickers make such a statement.

The AI brought up an important point about how many people select gear. They will buy a cheaper upper receiver assembly and put a really nice free-floating rail system on and in doing so they get the cart before the horse. Spend the money to get a good reliable WORKING weapon first, and THEN worry about accessories. Avoid things like set-screw gas blocks, titanium firing pins, “match” triggers, and various other aftermarket parts that seem like a good idea but end up being problematic at best when you run a gun hard. Colt certainly isn’t perfect and their guns aren’t immune to problems or failures, but they have learned over a long period of producing DI guns what it takes to make one work (because they are FORCED to make them work by their government contracts) and are your best shot at a rifle that will work out of the box and that will offer a decent service life. If you are driving from Alabama to go train in Virginia, it sucks to have your weapon poop the bed on you less than 100 rounds into the training day.

After the lesson we completed the bullseye drill. The drill showed that just like flashlight techniques, people (and by “people” I mean me) need to spend time learning to find a version of the various positions that works best for their anatomy and equipment choices. I rarely shoot from the kneeling position, for instance, and as a result I suck out loud when in the kneeling. I’m not really any better than when I am standing. To borrow Mr. Vickers’ terminology, that’s God’s little way of telling me that I need to practice that position more.

After scoring the bullseye drill we did a (don’t call it a) walkback drill. True to form I stepped up to the line and continued my legendary performance by missing the steel target AGAIN…flaming out in spectacular fashion once more and keeping my unbroken streak of suck going for another day. I HATE the (don’t call it a) walkback drill. I loathe it. Every damn time I run that drill I manage to **** it up in ways that amaze even me. Apparently I used up every last bit of (don’t call it a) walkback mojo I had in the last run during the May AK class. Others did fairly well on the drill. I really don’t remember who because I was too busy swearing at myself to pay much attention.

We then broke for lunch. It’s been hot in South Hill the last couple of days. Yesterday afternoon merely stepping out of the shade gave you the sensation that your skin was sizzling. Today was also pretty hot. Templar managed to sweat through his shirt before class even started. That was a bad sign. Thankfully the day actually seemed to get a bit cooler after the morning session….but not much. The trashcan at the range is overflowing with water bottles.

After lunch we worked on transitions from the long gun to the sidearm. Again, attempting to re-enforce real world situations Mr. Vickers had us set up our carbines with no ammo in them. On the buzzer we were to attempt to fire just as we would be doing in the real world, get a click or a dead trigger, and then respond to that stimulus by transitioning to the sidearm. A number of shooters had been trained by the military to put the weapon on safe and to guide the long gun to the weak side using both hands…neither of which are desirable. When you get a click instead of a bang when dealing with a threat, there is still a threat there trying to kill you. You need to get the sidearm into action as quickly and efficiently as possible if you wish to preserve your life. The mechanical safety on the weapon is the least of your problems at that point. Worse still, it’s also impossible. If you get a click instead of a bang or a dead trigger when you attempt to address a threat with your long gun, you won’t be able to actually re-engage the safety because the hammer isn’t going to be cocked.

This is another example of “safe” range practice that is aimed at preventing problems from the lowest common denominator but that turns into a problem once you are on a two way range. It would suck to get shot because your brain was stuck on the programming it received, trying to make you engage the safety on your carbine instead of just drawing your pistol and dealing with the threat.

This is another example of why Mr. Vickers’ instruction is so valuable. He approaches the drills with the mindset that he’s preparing you to deal with a real life threat and his techniques are developed around the reality of what’s important in that moment. One of the most important lessons I’ve learned from Mr. Vickers is the importance of mindset in training. You have to keep a very clear understanding of what exactly it is that you are training FOR if you want to achieve the best results. If it’s true that you’ll fight like you train, then it seems to me to be equally true that you’ll train like you think….thus getting your mind right about exactly what it is you are doing is critical for anyone who wishes to use a firearm for serious social purposes.

We then did a transition based drill requiring us to load a single round in the chamber of our carbines. We were to fire one round, attempt to fire a second shot, and after we got the click transition to our sidearms. We ran the drill. Then Mr. Vickers (who had apparently been watching the first relay carefully with an instructor’s eye) asked how many people had actually pulled the trigger on their carbines a second time before transitioning to the sidearm. Only about 1/3 of the relay actually made the second trigger pull. The other 2/3rds were DQed on the spot. We then worked backwards dropping anyone who put a shot outside the black until it was down to me and a member of the NoVA crew. After a few tie runs he managed to break his pistol shot a little faster than I did and won the competition for our relay.

It was theorized that some good natured ribbing based on my screen name during the (don’t call it a) walkback drill had pissed me off enough to improve my performance. I must admit that it did provide a little bit of motivation…but my main thought during the drill was all the misses and downright EMBARRASING accuracy I’d displayed up to that point and the determination that if it KILLED me I wasn’t going to be the first man down on another drill.
After transitions we worked on turns with the carbine. Apparently I managed to get my sh*t together because I kept all my shots in the black and most of them inside the 10 and X rings during the turning drills.

During a break for some hydration Mr. Vickers took the time to give us some equipment pointers. He talked about stocks, the BFG modified redi-mag, sang the praises of the EOTech (note: this is sarcasm), and talked about just about every other AR related accessory you can think of. A couple of people were taking good notes during this portion so I’ll leave it to one of them to recount the specifics.

Then it was time for shooting on the move. We began with simple walking forward and backward drills, and then moved on to box drills with the carbine and the handgun. Anyone who watches video that has captured actual shootouts will notice quickly that nobody stands still once the bullets start flying. It is the natural human instinct to move when somebody is shooting at you. Mr. Vickers put it bluntly:

“Nobody would stand here and let me throw rocks at you as hard as I can, so why in the hell would you think that somebody isn’t going to move when you try to shoot them?”

Because it is likely that in a real fight both you and the bad guy are going to be moving, it is critical to learn how to shoot on the move. Mr. Vickers stated that the two things you should practice at every range session are some sort of bullseye shooting (to a high standard of accuracy, of course) and shooting on the move.

Part of learning to shoot on the move (and indeed learning to shoot well in general) is learning to live with the wobble. If you’ve spent any time shooting you know that the sights on your weapon are rarely still. At shorter ranges you may not notice it much, but at longer ranges you begin to notice that it is hard to keep the sights on an ever shrinking target. When moving it is impossible to keep the sights absolutely still. There are ways you can use your body to minimize the movement of the sights, but you will never keep them absolutely still. As a result, you must learn how to keep the sights within an acceptable “wobble zone” and then be able to break a clean shot when you have an appropriate sight picture.

The issue most people have is what Mr. Vickers termed “twitch fire” where they see the sight picture they want and think “Okay, break the shot NOW!” and then snatch the unholy hell out of the trigger, resulting in a miss. They are essentially focusing more on the sight picture than the trigger pull, and that’s another case of getting the cart before the horse. This is exactly what I was doing on the (don’t call it a) walkback drills. I was getting the sight picture I wanted and then snatching the unholy hell out of the trigger. “Okay….NOW!” ***snatch*** **flying dirt** “@^%^&*$!!!!!”

Thankfully I managed to perform much better on paper, keeping the overwhelming majority of my shots made on the move within the black. We started with simple forwards and backwards moving drills, and then moved on to box drills shot with the pistol and the carbine. I went for a short bus ride on my first run with the carbine messing up my footwork and at the beginning I wanted to fire all my shots on the first target for some reason…but I did much better on the pistol run.

Unfortunately I missed a number of moving drills because the forward QD mount I had for my sling popped off of my rail. Somehow the threads inside the mount had been stripped and there was nothing left for the screw to hold on to. That mount worked just fine up until today…and of all the things you expect to break on a carbine your sling mount just isn’t one of them. Thankfully CarlosDJackal had a spare sling/attachment point that worked for my situation and he was kind enough to loan it to me to finish the course.

We finished the day with a competition. The class was split into 3 eight man teams. Each person had only 8 rounds in their weapon and had to do a figure 8 through 2 obstacles and fire one round on each of four targets going forward through the figure 8 and going back. Accuracy and speed were the judging criteria and teams two and three managed to tie. Team two was faster, team three was a little more accurate overall.

[Jay Cunningham]

I HATE the (don’t call it a) walkback drill. I loathe it. Every damn time I run that drill I manage to **** it up in ways that amaze even me. Apparently I used up every last bit of (don’t call it a) walkback mojo I had in the last run during the May AK class. Others did fairly well on the drill. I really don’t remember who because I was too busy swearing at myself to pay much attention.

You would have been fine if you'd had your VEPR.

Thanks for the effort in the write-up!

[30 cal slut]

A few observations ...

1) John Wayne 777 is a mobile gun shop on wheels. Thanks for letting me borrow the holster, dude! :D

2) Although I am normally the living embodiment of what Larry calls "fumblef*ck", it was nice NOT to be on the hardware short bus this weekend (so far). Equipment is holding up nicely.

3) It requires extra mental effort to stay switched on in this modestly hot and humid weather.

[VA_Dinger]

Great class, even though I did not get to make every day it was still a blast.

It's not every day that you get to train with a great group of guys shooting the 10.5" SCAR, new FN .45 handguns, new S&W M&P 9 Pro, HK416, ADC gas piston guns, and last but certainly not least a brand spanking new belt-fed Hungarian/Vltor PKM. I had a blast and learned a lot as per usual for a Vickers Tactical class.

Thanks to everybody who attended for helping to make it a very successful class. I look forward to August Level I Carbine, Sub-gun, pistol caliber carbine class. It will certainly be just as good of a class.

[GLOCKMASTER]

JW excellent daily reports and very informative.Looked like a great class.


Being that this range is only about 45 minutes from my house I need to jump in on some of these LAV classes.

Note to self....LAV in Va.:cool:

[Heavy Metal]

Damn man, how do you have the energy left to do these so promptly?:D

I am still in South Hill chillin' in the motel and am hitting the sack after I watch Family Guy!

[Heavy Metal]

Thanks for taking the time to post your account of the first day. That's a lot of typing after a hot day on the range shooting those tough little bullseyes. Tell the Milfmasta (NCPatrolAR) to go easy on those stories. Looking forward to your day 2 report.

BTW, I call those "instantly lowering the gun" after a shot, the "collapse". I see many does it at IDPA matches and during training events. Don't do it.

I gave MilfMaster my "Tweakers are the new Zombie" lecture at the Cracker Barrel the other night!

That will teach him to wear his Family Zombie defense plan T-Shirt to dinner!


“Nobody would stand here and let me throw rocks at you as hard as I can, so why in the hell would you think that somebody isn’t going to move when you try to shoot them?” LAV

The truth laid bare in one simple sentence........

[Business_Casual]

We then worked backwards dropping anyone who put a shot outside the black until it was down to me and a member of the NoVA crew. After a few tie runs he managed to break his pistol shot a little faster than I did and won the competition for our relay.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/glock23carry/insp_captkirk_preview.jpg

M_P

[TOrrock]

Fantastic class as expected.

I'm beat, but it's a good beat. I'm downloading and editing pictures as we speak, but there are a lot of them, and video too, so it might be tomorrow before I have everything done.

I'll post the pictures here in the AAR thread.

Special thanks to Sinn Fein for taking the time and effort to make the class, and giving us a taste of SCAR-L and FN 45 goodness.....

Thanks as well to ADC for stopping in and letting us ring out his uppers, and giving us some insight as to when to expect them. They are definitely a very serious contender in the AR gas piston world.

Pics to follow.

[Heavy Metal]

Give the man a break, he really needed an ego boost to make up for his performance on the previous walk back drills:D

He did really, really well on the transition competition.

[Robb Jensen]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/glock23carry/insp_captkirk_preview.jpg

M_P

Congrats 'Mr. Business Casual' ! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/smilies/uglylol.gif

[Battlepack]

It was great meeting everybody and getting into another one of LAV's classes.

John Wayne, great AAR and I'm looking forward to the Day 3 post. I also had high expectations on the competitions even given my mediocre at best skill set. I was even shooting a 1911 (only one in the class) which I thought was giving me an advantage..............and I promptly missed the steel right out the gate.:eek: At least I was able to hit the steel once on the next competition before El Snatcho showed up. :D

No equipment issues for me, just poor shooting/technique. I learned a couple of new phrases which is always worth the price of admission.

[John_Wayne777]

Day 3 –

We began day three with another (don’t call it a) walkback drill. To make things go faster Mr. Vickers changed the drill. We would now have 4 seconds to fire up to two shots (from the low ready) to hit the steel. Much to my surprise, I managed to actually hit the steel this time.

After the (don’t call it a) walkback drill we then moved to the “Fallujah” drill…a teamwork drill modeled after some real situations in the world to teach communication and muzzle awareness. The class was broken up into six teams of six men each, with those who had been through the “Fallujah” drill before acting as the captains of their squad. Our team came up with what we thought was a pretty good plan. Carlos and I would provide covering fire for the two guys who would be retrieving the downed men. The plan was to have the two deliverers go across the “street” one at a time under the cover provided by Carlos and myself. The first man over would set up and provide covering fire for the second man who would clear the weapons of the downed men and prepare them for the drag. Once they were ready, he would tap the first man and they would each grab an arm and haul ass back.

The execution was pretty good on the part of the deliverers….unfortunately I screwed them because I didn’t have the magazine in my carbine seated properly. Apparently the flaw in our plan was not having a dedicated shooter cross the “street” with them to provide steady covering fire over there. Still, we managed to do okay and we only killed one innocent during our run while sending the bad guys to met Allah.

Accuracy was an issue. I didn’t get two of the required 10 hits on the first bad guy because that’s the one I was shooting when my failure to seat the magazine properly showed up. The other bad guys got all 10 hits, most of them in the head. All hail the prone position! Accuracy in general was an issue for everyone giving folks some idea of just how quickly accuracy can go to pot when you have a lot of crud going on around you….and that was the point of doing the drill in the first place. In a real fight there is going to be a lot of crud going on around you. You need to have the ability to remain aware of what is going on around you and still muster enough concentration to apply accurate fire to the people trying to kill you. Mr. Vickers told us before the drill started and after the drill was over that accurate fire is the best force multiplier there is.

After a lunch break we saw demos for the ADH piston system, the SCAR rifle, and Larry’s new PKM.

ADH piston system –

The more I see of the ADH piston system, the more I like it. The design can be described as elegantly simple and it seems that just about every conceivable angle has been covered. The recoil impulse is very familiar and the samples out there now seem to be absorbing very high round counts without issue. If the designer can achieve his vision in production numbers I think he’ll do well with it.

SCAR-L rifle –

Thanks to our friendly FN rep the SCAR got quite a workout. After seeing the weapon broken down it appears to me that the folks at FN have really thought this one through. I don’t know much about the history of the weapon. Prior to the day’s festivities the only thing I really knew about the SCAR was that some SF type units were interested in the weapon and that some sort of development was going on between FN and the military. From the pictures I’d seen of the weapon prior to the live show I thought it would be heavier and would feel more awkward than the AR series of weapons. I couldn’t have been more wrong. The SCAR-L is actually a very light, very handy little weapon that is still very controllable even on full auto and with an 11” barrel. (I assume it was 11 inches) I had no problem getting controlled pairs from the weapon (thanks to a decent cyclic rate) in full auto and when you hold the weapon properly shot to shot recovery on semi-auto isn’t impaired at all over the AR. I didn’t get a whole lot of trigger time on the weapon, but I did play with all the controls and tried to do as much eval as possible under the circumstances. I found myself liking the weapon quite a bit. I think if more people had some trigger time on the weapon and had some clue as to just how much engineering and R&D is going into this weapon they’d be lined up to buy one. I never really had an interest in the weapon prior to shooting it, but after staring at its guts and after some quality time with the weapon I’m certainly interested in the civilian version that is forthcoming.

PKM –

This was probably the most fun demo for me. I don’t know anything about belt fed weapons and it was a delight to have a lesson on this fairly rare (at least here in the States) machinegun. It’s a very light weapon (for a belt fed machinegun, anyway) and it’s remarkably simple for a belt fed machinegun. Mr. Vickers described it as a beefed up AK operating system turned upside down and fed with a belt. The bolt looks almost identical to an AK bolt.

Shooting it was a blast. The PKM’s light weight and powerful cartridge could lead you to believe it will be a bear to control, but in reality it’s very easy to control. Simply get behind the weapon in a good prone position, dig your feet in and push back, and you can put the rounds very close together. Mr. Vickers was scoring multiple hits on the C zone steel target with bursts from the PKM…but before killing the steel target so was Heavy_Metal. (Who also provided most of the ammo for the PKM) I had no trouble keeping my bursts within a fairly small beat zone when I did my part on the weapon. I even managed to hit a different steel target set up at 100 yards without too much problem. You have to control the weapon and fire reasonable bursts to hit anything, but that’s true of even sub-machineguns. I can see why the PKM is so popular with those who have spent a bit of trigger time on it.

A big thank-you to Heavy_Metal who provided the ammo for the PKM. That was a generous thing to do. It was also generous of Mr. Vickers to provide his new and to that point unfired weapon for a show and tell. I don’t know how many rounds were fired through it today, but it got a decent little workout. I think Heavy_Metal re-filled the belts at least 3 times, possibly more.

As the show and tell drills wound down, people started bringing out other cool toys. I finally had the chance to shoot the HK 45 with an LEM trigger pack, and I have to say it was VERY nice. I found it easy to make hits with and easy to operate…and the weapon feels VERY good in the hand. It looks bulkier in pictures than it actually is. My only real gripes about the weapon would be that I would prefer a shorter trigger reach and I would prefer some different sights. Despite those two (very minor) issues I had no trouble making good shots with the weapon.

Va_Dinger brought a new M&P 9 pro that someone had sent along with him to be shot at the class. I had the chance to play with the weapon quite a bit and I have to say that I liked it a LOT. The outstanding feature was the trigger. I had my Burwell customized M&P 9mm there to compare it with and the stock trigger on the 9 pro was almost as good as Mr. Burwell’s trigger job. I fired a full magazine at the head of an IDPA target rapid fire at 15 yards, and all 17 shots were kept within that small square without much effort on my part.

THAT is the trigger S&W should put in ALL the M&P’s from the factory.

Overall it was a good course filled with good people. I enjoyed meeting and shooting with all the folks in the class and I enjoyed getting some trigger time on some pretty cool weapons. I think everyone learned something valuable in the class. As I told another individual, I think I will run out of money long before Mr. Vickers runs out of things to teach me.

Templar is most likely going to be posting a lot of cool pictures and video, especially of the SCAR and the PKM. You don't want to miss those.

[John_Wayne777]

Damn man, how do you have the energy left to do these so promptly?:D


I have to write them close to the event or I forget a lot of important stuff. I do these as much for my own reference and to commit things to long term memory as for the benefit of those reading and evaluating whether or not they want to spend money on the course themselves.



I am still in South Hill chillin' in the motel and am hitting the sack after I watch Family Guy!

I'm back home trying to find all the ticks I brought with me. I've pulled four off of myself so far.

Fellas, check yourselves REALLY WELL as soon as possible.

[TOrrock]

Photo's from TD1.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD1/P1000417.jpg

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[TOrrock]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD1/P1000439.jpg

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[TOrrock]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD1/P1000450.jpg

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD1/P1000486.jpg

[TOrrock]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD1/P1000487.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD1/P1000488.jpg

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD1/P1000496.jpg

[TOrrock]

Link for full sized TD1 pics:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD1/TD1%20Full%20Size/

[TOrrock]

TD2:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD2/P1000497.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD2/P1000498.jpg

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD2/P1000500.jpg

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[TOrrock]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD2/P1000517.jpg

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[TOrrock]

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[30 cal slut]

what the hell, one more.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/30calslut/scar_fun.jpg

[Buck]

U guys got any pics???

[UDT]

Thanks, for sharing. Nice pics.

[MAP]

I had a great time. It was nice to see some old friends and meet more great people from the south. Everyone went out of their way to make me feel welcome.

A few pics. First up, John Wayne 777 going Jihad on Achmed the (now) dead terrorist. For all the complaining he did about his shooting he took care of business.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a89/MAP1911/1.jpg

Paul H running the SCAR L

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a89/MAP1911/PHSCARL.jpg

Last, but not least, a happy pic. Gotta love shooting someone elses ammo. ;)

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a89/MAP1911/fun.jpg

[RogerinTPA]

Very nice pics Templar! What was your's, Larry's, and the class's opinion on the FN SCAR and .45?

[TOrrock]

Very nice pics Templar! What was your's, Larry's, and the class's opinion on the FN SCAR and .45?

Thanks, I was in squad 2 so most of the action pics were taken of squad 1. Everyone got their pics taken during the walk back drills.

I was thoroughly impressed with the new .45. I want one, and as soon as they hit the market, I'll buy one. Seriously. I might even trade my HK 45 in on it.....:o

As far as the SCAR-L is concerned, I haven't been as excited about a new small arm coming out since the 80's. I can't convey how impressed I was with the design, manufacturing, and handling characteristics of the 10" barreled version that SinnFein1911 brought down. Field stripping is a snap, and detail stripping, including removing the barrel, is easily accomplished.

I'll be posting pics of TD3 later on this evening. There are a lot of detailed and action pics of the SCAR-L.

I usually take a wait and see attitude when it comes to new platforms being released, but in this case I'll happily be one of the guinnea pigs that buys the first one available. I was that impressed with the SCAR-L.

I guess I shouldn't have been suprised though, it is FN after all........


I tried stuffing it in my pack as we were packing up, but SinnFein1911 was watching me like a hawk..........:eek:

[David Thomas]

I am also curious about the performance of the Sig 556 that was in the class.

Also, I am on the edge of my seat waiting for a PKM video or two...

[NCPatrolAR]

Made it back home last night in one piece after dropping off my traveling companion and spending some time there. ;) The class was what I've come to expect;an excellent expereince where the student gets what he needs, not always what he wants. The main thing I walked away from the class with was the fact that I need to spend more time working the prone position and getting myself in a position where I am able to utilize the mag as a monopod and get solid hits. I'll be breaking out the .22LR conversion and working on this from now on. Maybe one of these days I'll move from the "he sucks" category to the "he is ok" .

It was great getting to me meet new people and get to hang out again with old friends. I was hapy to see everyone enjoyed my shirts and my witty stories. I figure if you cant shoot well, at least be entertaining. :D

On the gear side of the house, I had two firearm-related problems. It appears my MP9 trigger job might be going south on me. I had two incidents of the gun failing to reset properly. The issue is rsolved by a quick "Tap,Rack, Ready", but I'll be sending a few emails out to see what can be done.

One the first walk back on Day 3, my AR had a double feed. Looking back at it, the gun was bone dry and when you mix that with Wolf ammo; the malfunction was inevitable. Speaking of the Wolf 223 amo; I didnt rally have any negative experience with it (minus the single double feed).

THe SCAR-L was fun to shoot and might be something I'll add to the collection when it is released. The FN 45 however, wont be. I imply didnt care for the .45 since I felt I could barely get my finger up to the trigger. I also didnt care for the sights, but realize they are on there for a very specific reason. THe optic option for the FN 45 is very interesting and is something I'd like to see other companies experiment with.

Now for some pictures:

Like Ken Hackathorn says "The best ammo is free ammo"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Brachialstun/DSC01814.jpg

The SCAR - L

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Brachialstun/DSC01813.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Brachialstun/DSC01843.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Brachialstun/DSC01844.jpg

LAV's PKM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Brachialstun/DSC01815.jpg

Larry dropping mad knowledge on the gun

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Brachialstun/DSC01817.jpg

PKM action:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Brachialstun/DSC01822.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Brachialstun/DSC01830.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Brachialstun/DSC01832.jpg

[GunSlinger]

Another tough drill was 2 shots from the draw in 3 seconds at the 5 yard line (repeat 5 times)…2 shots from the draw at the 10 yard line in 4 seconds, (x5) and 2 shots from the 15 yard line in 5 seconds. (x5) The goal here was to keep all shots within the black. I was doing extremely well until the last couple of runs at the 15 yard line where I managed to cluck it all up with 5 shots in the white because I failed to pay proper attention to trigger control. I believe there were also shooters who shot this drill clean.

Dear Sir,
I do believe only one cleaned that drill
he is quite the H.C.M.F. and is also known as Hanna Montana
http://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0.55&disp=emb&view=att&th=11b221f4c9c3059f

[Jay Cunningham]

Full auto PKM = teh awesomeness!!1!1

Seriously, that is kick-ass.

[CarlosDJackal]

It was nice seeing old friends whom I have not seen in a while as well as meeting new ones. I have pics that I have to go through and REDAC before I can post them . I also have a view videos that probably won't get posted (I can't think of a way to REDAC those :eek: ).

If the civilian version of the SCAR-L is ever released, I will be fighting the urge to get one in SBR form. For something that looks like a Super Soaker, it sure shoots and handles very well. Thanks to all involved who let us shoot their "toys".

I hope everyone made it home safe and sound!!

ADDED: Thanks for sharing those awesome pics, Tim!!

[m4fun]

Was a great class for sure. "Have to be comfortable in your wiggle zone"

The SCAR rocked. Nice with that 11" barrel.

The FN .45 was big in my hands, but I know that backstrap is made to be interchangable. Was fun to shoot(again, with someone else's ammo)

Arnold brought a couple of his piston prototypes. Very nice - he has an 11" barrel that really does not have that sharp piston recoil. That will be exciting too.

[Heavy Metal]

A big thank-you to Heavy_Metal who provided the ammo for the PKM. That was a generous thing to do. It was also generous of Mr. Vickers to provide his new and to that point unfired weapon for a show and tell. I don’t know how many rounds were fired through it today, but it got a decent little workout. I think Heavy_Metal re-filled the belts at least 3 times, possibly more.

A big thank you to you for helping me put the Heinie sights on my Glock. And a big thank you to Larry for bringing the Russian beast! If the M-60 is a pig, that is a Russian Boar! (And I know my Hog stuff!) A big thanks to Templar and .30cal Slut and everyone else for posting all those pics!

It was nice seeing everyone again!

I only hope everyone else enjoyed the PKM as much as I did. I have been daydreaming about it for weeks now! Christmas in July!

[TOrrock]

Full size pics from TD2:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD2/TD2%20Full%20Size/?start=all&special_track=album_paginate_top_view_all

[SinnFéinM1911]

Thanks All for allowing me your time ! If you have any questions at all please feel free to email me or call!

Take care and be safe !

B

[TOrrock]

TD-3:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000575.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000576.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000577.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000579.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000580.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000581.jpg

Team XL on the Falluja drill:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000582B.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000583.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000584.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000585.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000586.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000587.jpg

[fly4now]

I had a great time learning some new stuff and meeting like-minded people. JW777, thanks for the AAR. Great job! Tim, thanks for posting those pics. Much appreciated.

See you next time at the range,
Paul
(the Jedi clown)

[TOrrock]

PKM action:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000641.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000644.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000648.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000651.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000652.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000654.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000655.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000656.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000658.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000665.jpg

[CLHC]

Nothing like going to class learning, training, and having fun! Way to go on those pictures! :cool:

[Jay Cunningham]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD3/P1000652.jpg

Would that be categorized as a sh!t-eating grin??

[John_Wayne777]

Would that be categorized as a sh!t-eating grin??

I don't actually remember grinning as I shot the PKM...I think you're just seeing my "I'm trying to aim this thing so I don't look like a complete noob" face as I closed one eye and tried to line up the sights.

...but I can say that my pants were awful tight....:D That's an action shot, by the way...Templar apparently managed to catch the weapon ejecting spent brass, explaining why the dust cover on the left side of the weapon is open.

That PKM was amazing. It ran VERY well. The only stoppages it suffered were, I think, the result of improperly loaded belts. You really have to push hard to get the rounds seated in the belts and it's easy to mess that up, which will cause a stoppage. Once Heavy_Metal learned the trick to loading the belts properly I don't think we had any more issues. That's pretty darn good performance for an out of the box PKM clone based on a reproduction US receiver. The folks at VLTOR apparently really know their PKMs.

[gunboy3]

http://picasaweb.google.com/beelzebubbaloo/VickersClass

[CarlosDJackal]

Thanks All for allowing me your time ! If you have any questions at all please feel free to email me or call!

Take care and be safe !

B

Brett,

It was nice to have met you and thanks a bunch for letting us shoot the SCAR-L (with your ammo, no less :D ).

The only question I have is FN taking pre-orders for the SCAR-Ls? :)

ADDED: We never took a group picture!! :(

[Blake]

I notice that Larry was shooting a Surefire X series light in front of the front sight. I'm curious of his opinions of this setup. I assume, since he is using it, that he finds it pretty functional. I'm OCONUS right now, but I've been weighing the different light set-ups for my personal carbine. This seems like a pretty good set up. I just haven't had the opportunity to try it out.

[Adam]

What were Larry's feeling's on the Elcan specter DR?

[TOrrock]

What were Larry's feeling's on the Elcan specter DR?

I'll let Larry write a complete review of it, but he was initially pretty positive about it.

One thing I don't think he cared for was the lack of a middle of the road magnification, it was either 1x or 4x.

[CarlosDJackal]

I went through my stuff and all I have are videos. Unfortunately, I cannot post these online because most of them include certain individuals' faces and I have no way to REDAC these. They are also way too big to e-mail so I'll just have to burn them onto disks and give them to those of you who I run into regularly.

[David Thomas]

what the hell, one more.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/30calslut/scar_fun.jpg

How is the reach to the mag release on the SCAR-L? Same as the AR/M4?
In this picture it looks like the firing grip needs to be released and/or adjusted to hit the mag release. Or am I just seeing things?

[Business_Casual]

I suck at pictures, these are the only ones in my camera:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/glock23carry/DSC00502.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/glock23carry/DSC00501.jpg

I did find a tick, despite using Off! and plenty of it. My doctor started me on meds to be safe.

I didn't pick up someone's mag from the last drill, did I? If I did, PM me.

M_P

[John_Wayne777]

How is the reach to the mag release on the SCAR-L? Same as the AR/M4?
In this picture it looks like the firing grip needs to be released and/or adjusted to hit the mag release. Or am I just seeing things?

It's just how the photo looks. The controls on the SCAR are on the same place as the AR series of weapons as far as I could tell. I didn't break out a micrometer or anything, but they all felt like they were in the same places to me. In fact, when Brett was handing around the SCAR pieces and I got my hands on the grip/mag-well module I couldn't help but think that if it had a buffer tube on it nobody could tell it wasn't an AR lower.

[Heavy Metal]

You know, when I shot the PKM, I USED THE SHOULDER-THING THAT GOES UP!:D Err....the barrel shroud....yeah!

[Bama-Shooter]

Great AAR.

[CarlosDJackal]

...I didn't pick up someone's mag from the last drill, did I? If I did, PM me.

M_P

I am missing a black PMag which is numbered: "P01" and has yellow electric tape on the front with my name scribbled on it. :confused:

[Business_Casual]

Nope, it is made of solid gold and encrusted with precious gems.

Just kidding., it is a plain GI aluminum mag with nothing written on it. I usually write my initials on mags I take to a class. Shrug.

M_P

[Heavy Metal]

The only black P-Mag that made the return trip with me was the sample mag Magpul provided via Larry. Sorry.

[VA_Dinger]

SCAR-L

One thing that amazed me about the SCAR (probably shouldn't have though) is that 95% of what I have read about it was completely wrong.

IMO:

Based on my limited time with the SCAR-L I came away very impressed. It handled well, reliable, felt light, was superbly engineered & constructed, had good ergonomics, was very accurate, and is infinitely adjustable for a wide range of end-users body styles, preferences, and missions.

Sounds like a winner to me and I will certainly be looking to buy one.

[m4fun]

How is the reach to the mag release on the SCAR-L? Same as the AR/M4?
In this picture it looks like the firing grip needs to be released and/or adjusted to hit the mag release. Or am I just seeing things?

That was me in the pic. The lower controls/ergonomics felt the same as an AR. What might have added to it looking like a long reach is that I am not the tallest guy, nor have the biggest hands...;)

[Larry Vickers]

Gents

my latest working gun is a Colt 6920 with a DD RIS II rail , Surefire X300 mounted at 12 o'clock in front of the front sight, Troy flip up rear, slicked down MIAD pistolgrip, Star safety (great for lefties) , LMT SOPMOD stock, VCAS padded carbine sling, and Elcan Specter DR

This was my first class with it as I just dressed it up - it will be my 'truck' gun as in if I drive my truck to a class I will have it - If I fly then I will have a Charles Daly dressed out in a similiar (except with Aimpoint) fashion

I would hate to have any of my blasters stolen but i could stomach the CD alot more than the Colt

My initial impressions after this class are positive - everything on the gun is a proven piece of kit and not much of a risk except the Specter is very new and not many people have any real time on one - I want to shake it out and see how it stacks up

So far, after one one class, thumbs up

Cheers

LAV

[CarlosDJackal]

Two views of the Box Drill. The first one was an oberver's POV and the second was from my "Gun Cam" (my POV). I wish I could merge these two to play side-by-side.

Box Drill from an Observer POV (http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w169/CarlosDJackal/?action=view&current=CarlosBoxDrill-Rifle.flv)

Box Drill from the Shooter's POV (http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w169/CarlosDJackal/?action=view&current=CarlosBoxDrill-RiflePOV.flv)

[jackinfl]

Gentlemen,
Looks like a great class, but checking yourself for ticks does not sound like fun.
I see from the few pics you guys posted :) that alot of you guys including Larry Vickers are running the back of the VCAS at the slot in the stock.

My question is are you guys "choking yourselves with the sling when you transition to the other shoulder?

I see Robb, GotM4, is running the Daniel Defense receiver end plate adapter.

Did Mr. Vickers put out anything on the set upf the VCAS and it's use?

I like the idea of using the slot in the stock, as it is cheaper than buying a new adapter and I think the end of the stock gives the gun some stability when it is slung.

If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it.

Jack

[vaspence]

He did discuss slings a bit. Most guys are running either the VCAS or the Viking two point sling. How you rig it is personal preference. Some guys rig it off of the buttstock, others off of a plate or bolt on. Personally I like the TD PR4 bolt on mount with the sling in the rear facing hole for the back of the sling and then slung close to the receiver in the front (MI rail mounted sling bar or swivel in the DD front rail). Rotation limiters are also a good thing.

Transitioning to weak hand seems to depend on your size. A smaller guy can let out the slack in the sling and move it to the other shoulder. Some of us wider guys drop the weak arm out of the sling and just let it hang around the neck.

[Robb Jensen]

Gentlemen,
Looks like a great class, but checking yourself for ticks does not sound like fun.
I see from the few pics you guys posted :) that alot of you guys including Larry Vickers are running the back of the VCAS at the slot in the stock.

My question is are you guys "choking yourselves with the sling when you transition to the other shoulder?

I see Robb, GotM4, is running the Daniel Defense receiver end plate adapter.

Did Mr. Vickers put out anything on the set upf the VCAS and it's use?

I like the idea of using the slot in the stock, as it is cheaper than buying a new adapter and I think the end of the stock gives the gun some stability when it is slung.

If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it.

Jack

That's exactly why I run the end plate from DD. All you have to do when moving to your left shoulder is lift the stock above the sling seat the stock in your left shoulder and get back on target. It's makes the transition a little faster and doesn't choke you.

[Larry Vickers]

we did not get a whole lot of switch shoulder stuff in this class - the advantage to attaching the sling at the rear of the buttstock is it allows the weapon to hang muzzle down naturally - to switch shoulders run out the slack with the adjuster, take your support side arm out of the sling, and switch shoulders - the attachment at the receiver rear is easier because most people DO NOT have to take the support side arm out of the sling - just run out the slack and switch - however like everything in life there is a downside; with the weapon slung it will shift to a horizontal attitude unless controlled and become a safety hazard (sweeping people with your muzzle)

best bet is try someones rifle set up different than yours and see which method you like the best

be safe

LAV

[CarlosDJackal]

I tried the end plate configuration but gave it up when I kept smacking my finger on the end plate loop itself while manipulating the charging handle. FWIW, I connect the buttstock end of the sling to the outside of the stock because it stays out of the way when I shoulder the rifle. You can see how I have my sling in the links below (courtesy of Templar :D ). YMMV.

Before Shouldering (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD2/P1000530.jpg)

After Shouldering (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD2/P1000531.jpg)

[jackinfl]

Thanks guys! Sorry for the side track.
Jack

[zushwa]

Looks like another great class with LAV. I see quite a few people I know attended. I wish I would have too!! I guess I'll just have to make up for it in the LAV CQB course next week. :cool:

Hi-jack back on:

I used to attach the rear of the sling to an end plate adapter but found the sling would occasionally interfere with the charging handle during malfunction drills. In my humble opinion if an accessory interferes with the proper function of the gun then it is a NO GO. I’m a lefty, so maybe that had something to do with it, but that is my experience with the two mounting options.
YMMV.

Hi-jack end-ex.

Later,

[gunboy3]

I had a great time with you guys and would do it again in a heartbeat,,,,,,,are there videos of the shoot?

[stony275]

Photo's from TD1.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD1/P1000418.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Advanced%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%2011-13%20July%2008/TD1/P1000419.jpg



I don't know how I missed this thread, but I have to compliment LAV on his t-shrit choice for TD1