View Full Version : Movement in open area while engaged
Was talking tactics with a cop buddy the other day.
We were discussing various scenario's (especially active shooter) and in one scenario he described a certain area where a shooter could get cover and fire. So the shooter would have cover and the Officer would not.
Were talking within 35 yds, pistols, all drawn. We won't get into down range concerns for this either to keep the premise simple.
He said he'd walk towards the shooter while firing. I think that would generally not be the thing to do. He said he was counting the intimidation effect. I explained I understand the intimidation but that would not be the time to move towards someone firing at him.
I suggested holding position and firing (easier to shoot accurately when not moving), running to cover/concealment, running to flank the shooter, or walk to the shooters flank while returning fire.
2nd scenario: Inside 35 yds, BG and Officer have pistols, no cover or concealment nearby. BG is more or less stationary and firing. Whats the best course of action for the Officer?
My buddy still says advance while firing. I don't think thats wrong at all, but In my opinion a lateral, even circling movement would be better. No harder to shoot while walking forward or to the side, and it forces the BG to adjust to you and attempt to track you.
What say you guys?
I'm not police, but here are things to consider:
Your accuracy is negatively impacted by moving while shooting, while the BG's is not.
You do not have cover nor concealment, the BG does.
This seems like a really good way to get shot while not landing any hits on the BG.
Was talking tactics with a cop buddy the other day.
We were discussing various scenario's (especially active shooter) and in one scenario he described a certain area where a shooter could get cover and fire. So the shooter would have cover and the Officer would not.
Were talking within 35 yds, pistols, all drawn. We won't get into down range concerns for this either to keep the premise simple.
He said he'd walk towards the shooter while firing. I think that would generally not be the thing to do. He said he was counting the intimidation effect. I explained I understand the intimidation but that would not be the time to move towards someone firing at him.
I suggested holding position and firing (easier to shoot accurately when not moving), running to cover/concealment, running to flank the shooter, or walk to the shooters flank while returning fire.
2nd scenario: Inside 35 yds, BG and Officer have pistols, no cover or concealment nearby. BG is more or less stationary and firing. Whats the best course of action for the Officer?
My buddy still says advance while firing. I don't think thats wrong at all, but In my opinion a lateral, even circling movement would be better. No harder to shoot while walking forward or to the side, and it forces the BG to adjust to you and attempt to track you.
What say you guys?
Ron,
Your buddy's tactics suck. Plain and simple and that's coming from a LEO with a good amount of tactical training and quite a few shooting schools under his belt. Try asking one of the SME's here that are real deal gunfighters and see what they have to say? Koshinn speaks the truth. I understand where he is going with his thought process, but he would likely get the air let out of him pretty quick if his adversary had any skill whatsoever.
Supress and break contact. If they are taking fire (even if its not accurate) and you are moving it should reduce your chances of getting shot until you can gain an advantagous position and re-engage. Thats my initial reaction anyway. There may be some circumstances where advancing is an option but from the general idea I got from your scenario gtfo while supressing seems the best option. Interested in what others have to say.
Disclaimer: not LEO and my only training as a grunt was assault into an ambush, but thats a different ball game.
Mike
Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...
Voodoo_Man
04-08-15, 00:09
Without going into great detail (OPSEC concerns) there is a time and place for aggressive action - this is not generally taught because it requires two very difficult things, #1 having the understanding of combat tactics in various situations and #2 having a very large pair of balls.
Whenever I have trained "aggressive action" it has always been during specific breaks in combat and very specific circumstances.
In reference to active shooter(s) situations I will say this - current mantra is to get to the shooter as fast as possible, to close the time between the shooting starts to the time the shooter is dead. This makes the time that the shooter has to kill as short as possible. Now the caveat is that once a contact team or officer engages the shooter(s) that timeline stops since it is no longer innocent people being killed. At that time a reasonable and prudent officer would hold his position (of cover) and maintain a steady stream of fire until backup arrives - then and only then would aggressive action be required to end that type of situation.
This is normally called a "barricaded person" but thankfully, the vast majority of active shooter(s) either commit (cowardly) suicide or surrender.
Just something else to consider - I train constantly at distance shooting (pistol). 25 yards, 50 yards, 75 yards. I can tell you that 25 yards and out, standing freestyle, basically target shooting would be the only real way of making a hit worth anything. So add in the adrenaline of the cluster**** that is an OIS, multiply that by an "active shooter" situation, add in a possible crappy pistol characteristics (NY1 trigger, etc) and what you have is a "lucky shot" situation. That is a situation I would not advise anyone to be in, under any circumstance.
35 yards? Sit tight, hold him (or them) down, backup arrives, lots of bullets equal better shot of hitting.
I would absolutely not want to count on "intimidation." Depending on the situation, maybe I'd fire a quick shot or two if he's moving into position and then haul ass to cover. But probably just haul ass in that situation. For number two, I'd rather stay still and focus on shooting him as opposed to focusing on making him miss me.
echo5whiskey
04-08-15, 02:37
Supress and break contact. If they are taking fire (even if its not accurate) and you are moving it should reduce your chances of getting shot until you can gain an advantagous position and re-engage. Thats my initial reaction anyway. There may be some circumstances where advancing is an option but from the general idea I got from your scenario gtfo while supressing seems the best option. Interested in what others have to say.
Disclaimer: not LEO and my only training as a grunt was assault into an ambush, but thats a different ball game.
Mike
Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...
To add, you have to understand that the BG has to shoot the same distance you do. If you make that distance shorter, you not only increase your accuracy, but you increase his as well. Breaking contact does not necessarily mean running straight back either. You can break contact with a lateral movement so long as it will serve a purpose; e.g. cover.
To add, you have to understand that the BG has to shoot the same distance you do. If you make that distance shorter, you not only increase your accuracy, but you increase his as well. Breaking contact does not necessarily mean running straight back either. You can break contact with a lateral movement so long as it will serve a purpose; e.g. cover.
Agreed. Im also assuming there is no greater mission here other than survival. If its an active shooter and the public is still around then the rewards for the risks you take go up. For pure survival.... dont advance on a target without support. There is a reason for "buddy rushing" with a buddy.
Mike
Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...
As a non-professional IMHO if the BG is targeting/focusing on the LEO, then he's not shooting innocents, and therefore no need to get into a hurry. Quickly see Cover, Wait it out for help.
The only scenario that the above makes sense to me is when the BG is actively targeting innocents, and this is a last-resort action. And hitting a running, dodging target is NOT easy; moving sideways presents a smaller target than moving directly at you....
I'm just a dumb former Infantryman here, but here's my take:
We were discussing various scenario's (especially active shooter) and in one scenario he described a certain area where a shooter could get cover and fire. So the shooter would have cover and the Officer would not.
Were talking within 35 yds, pistols, all drawn. We won't get into down range concerns for this either to keep the premise simple.
He said he'd walk towards the shooter while firing. I think that would generally not be the thing to do. He said he was counting the intimidation effect. I explained I understand the intimidation but that would not be the time to move towards someone firing at him.
I suggested holding position and firing (easier to shoot accurately when not moving), running to cover/concealment, running to flank the shooter, or walk to the shooters flank while returning fire.
Going prone and returning fire wouldn't be a bad option, but I can see trying to lay down some suppressing fire with a few shots at the BG, and then booking it to cover. Walking, even at a "range walk" towards the bad guy while shooting is a great way to get doubled tapped.
2nd scenario: Inside 35 yds, BG and Officer have pistols, no cover or concealment nearby. BG is more or less stationary and firing. Whats the best course of action for the Officer?
My buddy still says advance while firing. I don't think thats wrong at all, but In my opinion a lateral, even circling movement would be better. No harder to shoot while walking forward or to the side, and it forces the BG to adjust to you and attempt to track you.
What say you guys?
No cover at all? With a rifle, I'd say hit the deck, and dump your magazine on the BG. Within 35 yards, it shouldn't be too hard to get a couple hits. Standing will almost certainly get yourself hit. Moving could help, but still, you're an awfully big target within 35 yards. Going prone would reduce your profile, and hopefully give you the chance to take out the BG before he does the same to you.
Walking, even at a "range walk" towards the bad guy while shooting is a great way to get doubled tapped.
That's what I was thinking. Not a smart tactic at all.
Walking straight toward the bad guy isn't effectively giving him a moving target, just one that's getting closer. Intimidation? Hey, if the guy is already shooting at a cop, I doubt if he's very intimidated.
In the law enforcement community "down range concerns" are a very important factor when determining how to deal with a threat. Terrain is also an important factor. Tactics we are taught in the military often are not suitable for LEO use unless you are working with a SWAT Team or a team that uses similar tactics.
If there were no innocents that could be hit by gunfire behind the threat and you are on flat hard terrain, such as concrete or asphalt, you want to move to contact as quickly as possible and neutralize the threat. If you are on terrain that gives you some cover when flattening out on the ground, then that would be an option while returning fire.
If you are LEO in an urban area, you cannot afford to send a lot of rounds down range to suppress the threat. Most LEO carry a limited number of rounds on their person and a LEO has to account for every round that is fired due to the possibility of hitting someone who is not involved. A mag dump would be out of the question in an urban environment. Hitting someone who is not involved and not hitting the threat would serve little or no purpose. A few shots to suppress the threat if no one was behind him/her, while moving to cover is a possibility.
Unless you are out in the middle of nowhere, you will have people down range. Spectators pop up all over the place when police exchange fire with violent attackers. In almost all the incidents that come to mind, officers reported civilians being downrange when they wanted to return fire on an attacker. In one instance where a friend of mine was shot, responding officers saw that half the patrons of a Denny's Restaurant downrange exited the restaurant and put themselves in a position to get hit by gunfire.
If you frequently train with your service pistol at 50 yards, then stopping for an instant and returning a precise shot or two may be the best course of action. Unfortunately, a lot of people have the mindset that training beyond 7 yards is a waste of time due to police shooting statistics and the shooting skills of the patrol officers and detectives at a lot of LEO agencies are not what they were 35 years ago. Dumping a lot of rounds toward the threat does not dramatically increase your chances of getting a hit and it is a poor tactic for LEO use. Being a good shot is not a guarantee that the officer will hit anything. In another LEO shooting incident, a close friend of mine, who is also a nationally ranked shooter, exchanged gunfire with a suspect at distance of under 6 feet. Twenty one rounds were exchanged and neither the officer or suspect were hit. When his service weapon ran dry the LEO moved to contact and struck the suspect in the head with his handgun. (In this case moving to contact worked, but not ideally.)
If you cannot accurately engage the threat at distance and no cover is available, boring in or moving to contact may be your only option. In order to rapidly engage the threat, you will have to expose yourself to increased risk.
Thanks for all the replies, guys.
These Officers I work with have been trained to "move in, in a group if possible". Some will on their own, others will wait for friendlies before moving in, and others will not show up at all until the smoke clears. Personalities are very much in play even in this sort of thing..some folks work well together (often friends), some don't get along with a certain person or with anybody, some prefer to make arrests all by themselves. Ya'll know how it is.
I wish more time was spent on two man tactics, flanking, etc.
Voodoo_Man
04-08-15, 19:10
Thanks for all the replies, guys.
These Officers I work with have been trained to "move in, in a group if possible". Some will on their own, others will wait for friendlies before moving in, and others will not show up at all until the smoke clears. Personalities are very much in play even in this sort of thing..some folks work well together (often friends), some don't get along with a certain person or with anybody, some prefer to make arrests all by themselves. Ya'll know how it is.
I wish more time was spent on two man tactics, flanking, etc.
Two man is the only way to do it safely and effectively.
vicious_cb
04-08-15, 21:42
I believe Paul Howe said it best, in his entire SF career he has never engaged a target while on the move. You are either shooting or moving, not both. If you are shooting accurately while moving then you are not moving fast enough to avoid being a bullet trap. If you are moving at full speed its pretty much impossible to get good hits on target.
If you draw it out on a board and do the math (John Simpson's motto) 45 degree diagonal movement into a target at any range makes the bad guy work more to engage you - more than lateral movement, more than diagonal out. As someone mentioned, straight in or straight out does nothing to get you off the threat axis - it just gives the bad guy a bigger or smaller target along the trajectory he is throwing rounds down.
At 35 yards out, with no cover and an equally exposed bad guy, on any surface but concrete blacktop, I'm going prone, a good roll over prone position is the most stable position you can shoot from outside a ransom rest. High grass/weeds would hamper your ability to hit but offer you some initial concealment, the problem is if the guys rushes you and you don't put him down at range, you've cut down your mobility.
Go to the range, or any place, you don't need guns to do this, start at 50, have your buddy go prone and see how much you have to shoot at, at 35 it is still not to bad, at 20 to 25 you can pound rounds into the length of a prone guys body - if he doesn't put you down first. So the time we are dealing with is the time it takes to move from 35 to 20 yards - 45 feet.
No absolute answer, I spend time on the range moving with my hips going diagonal and my torso square into the threat as I can be while moving.
Caught flat out in the open, or at close range, the initial instinct to move, at an angle, is the greatest gift you can instill into a shooter. Years ago, after running and participating in hundreds of close/moderate force on force scenarios, I came to the conclusion that I couldn't guarantee that an officer would be in anything other than white, so the conclusion I came to was that in order to help them survive a close range encounter, the best thing I could do for them was ingrain an instinct to move, preferably moving as they draw. Still believe it.
I believe Paul Howe said it best, in his entire SF career he has never engaged a target while on the move. You are either shooting or moving, not both. If you are shooting accurately while moving then you are not moving fast enough to avoid being a bullet trap. If you are moving at full speed its pretty much impossible to get good hits on target.
I think before we make absolute statements, we need to put it into context. I'm 8 feet from you at night doing an FI, and suddenly you reach behind you, diagonal movement as I am drawing is better than just movement alone. Of course you could rush and try to smother whatever, but, nah, movement as you are drawing and shooting (or deciding not to shoot :) ) is a key skill at that range.
vicious_cb
04-08-15, 22:13
I think before we make absolute statements, we need to put it into context. I'm 8 feet from you at night doing an FI, and suddenly you reach behind you, diagonal movement as I am drawing is better than just movement alone. Of course you could rush and try to smother whatever, but, nah, movement as you are drawing and shooting (or deciding not to shoot :) ) is a key skill at that range.
Getting off the line of attack while drawing is definitely the correct action. Civilian/LE encounters are typically at extremely close range, but if its anything past extreme close range you CAN definitely apply military TTP to the situation, hit the deck and start engaging the target. Even the curb is a good option of nothing else is around you.
Getting off the line of attack while drawing is definitely the correct action.
Moving off the line of attack when you first engage is something we taught at work for years. Teaching the concept was in response to LEO in our area who did not and died from gunshot wounds.
If you are caught out in the open without cover you still want to move, but need to minimize the threat quickly. That may require that you close the distance between you and the threat rapidly.
vicious_cb
04-09-15, 04:55
For those of you that are debating weather you should shoot on the move, record a video of yourself actually moving while trying get good hits, even if the targets are at relatively close range. You will be surprised.
If you draw it out on a board and do the math (John Simpson's motto) 45 degree diagonal movement into a target at any range makes the bad guy work more to engage you - more than lateral movement, more than diagonal out.
Well yeah, moving laterally while keeping the distance the same maximizes angle displacement at any given speed. Which is actually moving in a circle. But at LE ranges, a 45° movement is a decent approximation. At military ranges, a 90° perpendicular movement is a decent approximation.
For those of you that are debating weather you should shoot on the move, record a video of yourself actually moving while trying get good hits, even if the targets are at relatively close range. You will be surprised.
I do this at every match I shoot, and based on target distance, size and exposure level, scoring Alphas is very much doable.
I also practiced this while in the military, both moving towards the target, away from the target, and laterally across the target array.
If you practice it, you can do it. The same with shooting moving targets (swingers, sliders etc).
Shooting while moving should be a decision based on target distance, target size and target cover/concealment (which affects size). 35 yards moving with a pistol....I don't think I would take that shot. I'm not Todd Jarrett.
Either drop to the ground for a more solid platform, or move to cover.
Eurodriver
04-09-15, 07:07
Two man is the only way to do it safely and effectively.
I'm up. He sees me. I'm down.
Eurodriver
04-09-15, 07:11
If you draw it out on a board and do the math (John Simpson's motto) 45 degree diagonal movement into a target at any range makes the bad guy work more to engage you - more than lateral movement, more than diagonal out. As someone mentioned, straight in or straight out does nothing to get you off the threat axis - it just gives the bad guy a bigger or smaller target along the trajectory he is throwing rounds down.
When you say "work more to engage you" I am assuming you mean that his weapon (and body) needs to be moving more quickly to keep up with you?
For those of you that are debating weather you should shoot on the move, record a video of yourself actually moving while trying get good hits, even if the targets are at relatively close range. You will be surprised.
This made me chuckle a bit.
I do practice shooting on the move. If I move slowly and steadily (deliberate walk I guess you could call it) I do "okay" at close range. Walking quickly and firing at a 15 yd target well..there will be torso hits, but I consider an A zone of 4 inches and B zone of 8 inches.
What made me chuckle was I sometimes feel disappointed in myself for not being better at this. But the truth is..it's hard for anybody and I should focus on shooting and moving but NOT at the same time. (unless target is really close)
For those of you that are debating weather you should shoot on the move, record a video of yourself actually moving while trying get good hits, even if the targets are at relatively close range. You will be surprised.
From 1998 until 2012, I had the opportunity to train LEO to shoot on the move at 15 yards and closer. Inside 15 yards good COM hits are possible with a service pistol. Shooting on the move inside 50 yards and getting COM hits is also possible with the patrol carbine.
Proper training addresses this issue.
Voodoo_Man
04-09-15, 13:03
From 1998 until 2012, I had the opportunity to train LEO to shoot on the move at 15 yards and closer. Inside 15 yards good COM hits are possible with a service pistol. Shooting on the move inside 50 yards and getting COM hits is also possible with the patrol carbine.
Proper training addresses this issue.
"On the move"
Walk or run?
"On the move"
Walk or run?
More of a walk. An example of a pistol drill would be to draw, walk from the 15 yard line to the 7 yard line and engage the threat with 6 rounds in 7 seconds. Any shots made while not moving counted as a miss. The walk may be forward diagonal left or right or straight forward. The drills are also run by moving straight backward and backward diagonal left or right. The groups may not look pretty, but the drill can be successfully completed if the shooter applies himself. The score area on the body is generous at 8-1/2" x 15".
We also ran serpentine drills at various distances. The drills were designed for one or two officers, not a squad or tactical formation.
I haven't met anyone who could hit anything at a dead run. Our theory was that moving steadily was better than running full tilt, then stopping and firing. It keeps the heart rate steady and you don't present a stationary target.
I won't get too much into some of the other drills, but they were developed after 2 LEO in our area were shot and killed at residential doorways while handling calls that you would not dispatch a SWAT team, search warrant entry team or multiple officers to handle.
vicious_cb
04-09-15, 19:45
From 1998 until 2012, I had the opportunity to train LEO to shoot on the move at 15 yards and closer. Inside 15 yards good COM hits are possible with a service pistol. Shooting on the move inside 50 yards and getting COM hits is also possible with the patrol carbine.
Proper training addresses this issue.
Im not talking about how well you can shoot on the move. Its the fact that you are walking at a snails pace to get those hits. I mean you never notice it while shooting but you actually slow down to like 2mph, which is slower than your average walking speed. You see it in competition all the time, when someone starts to focus on their sights their walk speed slows down dramatically while they are engaging the target and speeds up again when they come off their sights. Now think about it from the targets perspective, is shooting a 2mph really all that difficult?
Does SotM have its uses? Sure, in structure clearing if a threat pops up while you're in a door jamb its definitely better to SotM out of that door jamb than have your whole team bottlenecked. But in the context of this thread's scenario and in most scenarios SotM hurts accuracy too much while adding very little to your safety.
Voodoo_Man
04-09-15, 19:52
More of a walk. An example of a pistol drill would be to draw, walk from the 15 yard line to the 7 yard line and engage the threat with 6 rounds in 7 seconds. Any shots made while not moving counted as a miss. The walk may be forward diagonal left or right or straight forward. The drills are also run by moving straight backward and backward diagonal left or right. The groups may not look pretty, but the drill can be successfully completed if the shooter applies himself. The score area on the body is generous at 8-1/2" x 15".
We also ran serpentine drills at various distances. The drills were designed for one or two officers, not a squad or tactical formation.
I haven't met anyone who could hit anything at a dead run. Our theory was that moving steadily was better than running full tilt, then stopping and firing. It keeps the heart rate steady and you don't present a stationary target.
I won't get too much into some of the other drills, but they were developed after 2 LEO in our area were shot and killed at residential doorways while handling calls that you would not dispatch a SWAT team, search warrant entry team or multiple officers to handle.
Interesting.
Ive done movement drills that are at dead run speeds, most competent shooters can get solid hits on target up to about 10 yards then it falls apart, normally.
Anything at distance, like 25 or 50 yards you have to be actually using the sights.
vicious_cb
04-09-15, 19:57
This made me chuckle a bit.
I do practice shooting on the move. If I move slowly and steadily (deliberate walk I guess you could call it) I do "okay" at close range. Walking quickly and firing at a 15 yd target well..there will be torso hits, but I consider an A zone of 4 inches and B zone of 8 inches.
What made me chuckle was I sometimes feel disappointed in myself for not being better at this. But the truth is..it's hard for anybody and I should focus on shooting and moving but NOT at the same time. (unless target is really close)
Exactly, I used to practice it a lot because you see it constantly in instructor's training regimens so it must be important right? Until I started recording my training sessions and critiquing them. When I saw how slow I was moving I actually felt stupid. Like that would actually get me killed if I tried something it in a real gunfight stupid. Now the only SotM training I do is backpedaling a few steps while drawing to simulate avoiding contact weapons.
Im not saying it wrong to practice but the amount of time and emphasis on SotM is greatly exaggerated by many instructors, all Im asking is to really question how useful certain techniques really are and not because XYZ said so.
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/training_for_the_real_fight.pdf
Reference shooting on the move. It is a skill that all shooters aspire to learn and
spend a great deal of time and effort trying to master. I have never had to use it in
combat. When moving at a careful hurry, I stopped planted and made my shots.
When the bullets were flying, I was sprinting from cover to cover, moving too fast to
shoot. I did not find an in between. If I slowed down enough to make a solid hit
when under fire, I was an easy target, so I elected not to
As for shooting and closing on a target, it only makes the bad guys accuracy better
and walking into a muzzle may help you to test your new vest sooner than you
wanted to. Diagonal movement works, but again if you have to slow down too
much, you are an easy target, and are generally in the open. Speed can act as your
security in this case to get you to a point of cover.
Since I started this thread (and really appreciate the discussion) I'd like to link to a drill-set that I made up.
It's not really related to the topic of this thread. Anyway here is the link:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?16760-Favorite-Drills/page17
Im not talking about how well you can shoot on the move. Its the fact that you are walking at a snails pace to get those hits.
If you walk at a snail's pace, you would fail the qualification.
Interesting.
Ive done movement drills that are at dead run speeds, most competent shooters can get solid hits on target up to about 10 yards then it falls apart, normally.
Anything at distance, like 25 or 50 yards you have to be actually using the sights.
We are talking about training rank and file LEO when I talk about moderate speeds.
I haven't even seen SWAT personnel who could hit a target at a dead run with a pistol. We do not teach unsighted fire.
When you say "work more to engage you" I am assuming you mean that his weapon (and body) needs to be moving more quickly to keep up with you?
I do this quite a bit in training with NLTA teaching guys to move off the draw - take a guy aside brief him and drill him without the other folks seeing it - then face them at 4-5 yards - virgin bad guy (never seen drill before) has 17T in back waistband, set up FI, bad guy moves for gun, officer drops DL, moves and draws diagonally in, almost always beat bad guy, first time. That time it was all about OODA. Generally, after that the officer will never beat the non-virgin bad guy, because the bad guy knows what the officer is going to do, he expects movement, so he has already decided what to do in response, all he has to key on is which way.
Since 1976 just a tick over 50% of the police shootings in which an officer was killed happened within 5 feet of the offender; over 80% within 20 feet. I would be willing to bet that those distances are not the combat gunfight distances that Paul Howe was quoted as talking about.
As someone said earlier, LEO's need to train beyond those distances, because LEO's need to be thinking about tactics they can use to make initial contact and assessment beyond those distances.
vicious_cb
04-10-15, 01:16
I do this quite a bit in training with NLTA teaching guys to move off the draw - take a guy aside brief him and drill him without the other folks seeing it - then face them at 4-5 yards - virgin bad guy (never seen drill before) has 17T in back waistband, set up FI, bad guy moves for gun, officer drops DL, moves and draws diagonally in, almost always beat bad guy, first time. That time it was all about OODA. Generally, after that the officer will never beat the non-virgin bad guy, because the bad guy knows what the officer is going to do, he expects movement, so he has already decided what to do in response, all he has to key on is which way.
Since 1976 just a tick over 50% of the police shootings in which an officer was killed happened within 5 feet of the offender; over 80% within 20 feet. I would be willing to bet that those distances are not the combat gunfight distances that Paul Howe was quoted as talking about.
As someone said earlier, LEO's need to train beyond those distances, because LEO's need to be thinking about tactics they can use to make initial contact and assessment beyond those distances.
And I agree with you, at extreme close range getting off the line of the line if attack is 99% the correct thing to do but in the context of this thread, as per the OP's situation at 35 yards you can absolutely apply Paul Howe's advice. You either sprint to cover or drop to the prone and engage. Shooting on the move in the OP's situation is the wrong decision either forwards, backwards or diagonally.
Voodoo_Man
04-10-15, 07:16
We are talking about training rank and file LEO when I talk about moderate speeds.
I haven't even seen SWAT personnel who could hit a target at a dead run with a pistol. We do not teach unsighted fire.
I understand completely.
It is, technically sighted fire, you just aren't using your sights.
We should hit the range one day...
With respect to going prone (and I realize this is a theoretical Bogeyman), isn't the angle of deflection of ricochetting rounds exceptionally shallow? Should the good guy be worried about essentially giving the bad guy a larger target to hit because of the ability for rounds to not have to directly hit their target in order to be effective?
Sent from 80ms in the future
Much peace
Jimmy
Ready.Fire.Aim
04-10-15, 13:46
He said he'd walk towards the shooter while firing.
Sounds like a duel.
Moving rapidly to cover was good advice. Even bad shots occasionally get lucky.
Caught in the open, weapon in hand, ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK, CLOSE THE DISTANCE. Apply much violence of action
With respect to going prone (and I realize this is a theoretical Bogeyman), isn't the angle of deflection of ricochetting rounds exceptionally shallow? Should the good guy be worried about essentially giving the bad guy a larger target to hit because of the ability for rounds to not have to directly hit their target in order to be effective?
Sent from 80ms in the future
Much peace
Jimmy
Years ago many FIS had a block on richochet shooting. The FBI put out a handout called 'Bouncing Bullets' that it provided to agencies and academies and the technique was featured in a way cool scen in the police training film 'Survival Shooting Techniques.'
Not enough talk about it anyone in LE circles, even in terms of protecting yourself from richochets.
I did tests to validate the FBI studies and found that with shotgun and pistol rounds (80's era projectiles) it is a viable technique. Here is a link to the document - it is a sorry PDF of a photocopy - https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Photocopy/6895NCJRS.pdf
Anyways, I was able to shoot along a runway with both concrete and asphalt surfaces as well as on buffalo and fescue turf.
Essentially, with less than a 45 degree angle of incidence, the softer the surface the higher the angle of departure, harder the surface, the shallower the angle of departure.
So, theoretically, it would go higher with turf - never done it with rifles or IIRC beyond 50 yards or so.
Something I always remember: when I teach tactics, I'm betting your life. Not to be done in a cavalier fashion, and there are no absolutes.
echo5whiskey
04-10-15, 23:22
Regarding shooting on the move, you have to have instructors who know what they're doing, and shooters who know what they're doing. I doubt it's possible to learn it properly on your own, without someone else's eyes who can accurately correct you.
If you do have those available, you can move fairly fast (think a fast-paced walk) and smoothly if you learn to do it right. It's more than just standing straight up and walking toward a target (whether human or paper). It's knowing when to squeeze the trigger and how to squeeze the trigger. It's also knowing how to move your feet and how to position your body. I'm not saying to you have to be in a full "combat glide", but you can make yourself more stable just by manipulating your center of gravity. I'm not saying that shooting on the move should be your default action, just that it is one of a number of options available in these scenarios.
Also, when referencing military IA drills, anything less than 50 yds is considered a "near ambush" and has an SOP for overcoming it. That, however, is based on having a squad (or team), with at least rifles, firing on an enemy element. Assaulting through is not necessarily the optimal option for an individual (IMHO, that is).
Gunnar da Wolf
04-11-15, 10:32
25+ years ago I attended my first Firearms Instructor course and got to hear Francis McGee of the NYPD. Information from the studies that NYPD's firearms training unit conducted back then on OIS were introduced and in all that data was a gem that they'd found that 100% of officers who sought cover during a shootout survived. Even young and dumb me back then knew that your rarely pronounce a 100% probability for any human endeavor. I've tried to work move to cover drills into my lesson plans ever since.
Singlehandedly assaulting a position of cover sounds like a good scene in a Schwarzenegger, Stallone, or Snipes action movie but I'd invite him to try it with Simmunition FX, paintball or airsoft in a FOF exercise and see if his plans change.
Caught in the open, weapon in hand, ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK, CLOSE THE DISTANCE. Apply much violence of action
Cause that worked so well for Pickett and Lee.
Eurodriver
04-12-15, 13:44
I do this quite a bit in training with NLTA teaching guys to move off the draw - take a guy aside brief him and drill him without the other folks seeing it - then face them at 4-5 yards - virgin bad guy (never seen drill before) has 17T in back waistband, set up FI, bad guy moves for gun, officer drops DL, moves and draws diagonally in, almost always beat bad guy, first time. That time it was all about OODA. Generally, after that the officer will never beat the non-virgin bad guy, because the bad guy knows what the officer is going to do, he expects movement, so he has already decided what to do in response, all he has to key on is which way.
Since 1976 just a tick over 50% of the police shootings in which an officer was killed happened within 5 feet of the offender; over 80% within 20 feet. I would be willing to bet that those distances are not the combat gunfight distances that Paul Howe was quoted as talking about.
As someone said earlier, LEO's need to train beyond those distances, because LEO's need to be thinking about tactics they can use to make initial contact and assessment beyond those distances.
Good info. Thank you. Just one question, even though I understand the scenario, what do you mean by "Officer drops DL"? "Drop the weapon"? type stuff?
Good info. Thank you. Just one question, even though I understand the scenario, what do you mean by "Officer drops DL"? "Drop the weapon"? type stuff?
Driver's License?
If he meant Driver's License, I taught personnel to throw it in the suspect's face with the support hand while drawing with the strong hand.
Driver's License?
If he meant Driver's License, I taught personnel to throw it in the suspect's face with the support hand while drawing with the strong hand.
I did. Many street contacts happen at night, I like to get officers in the habit of using just the bottom of the beam to read the DL/ID - and having the rest of the beam on the subs chest - any untoward moves, light up into face, dropping DL as moving and drawing.
T2C - I don't think there is a right or wrong. What really matters, though, is getting the officer to react and get rid of the item in his hands. I still remember the Constable Lunsford shooting video, he went to the ground with the subs DL and his (Lunsford's) flashlight still in his hands.
I did. Many street contacts happen at night, I like to get officers in the habit of using just the bottom of the beam to read the DL/ID - and having the rest of the beam on the subs chest - any untoward moves, light up into face, dropping DL as moving and drawing.
T2C - I don't think there is a right or wrong. What really matters, though, is getting the officer to react and get rid of the item in his hands. I still remember the Constable Lunsford shooting video, he went to the ground with the subs DL and his (Lunsford's) flashlight still in his hands.
Exactly. You should have the mindset that it is OK to empty your hands, react and get dirty. I may do something that you see at a later date and ask "what was that asshole thinking?"
In my humble opinion, when you stop thinking, you stop learning. When you fail to think and react under pressure, you die.
I don't have near the training of many of you (and I'm not LEO,though I have trained with some). As far as shooting on the move goes though in 2011 I had the blessing of being able to shoot with USPSA Grandmaster Shannon Smith for about 4 months and pick his brains for about 9 mths. I recall one class in which I was the youngest at 49yrs old. He had what basically looked like an El Presidente Drill setup, however he wanted us (4 students) at the sound of the timer to move backwards, draw and engage the targets with 2 rounds each. The three older men (including one 20yr IDPA shooter) basically were backing up at a walking pace while engaging targets. When it came my turn I moved at about the same pace and did not do very well. He kind of chewed me out for "gaming it". He then told me he wanted me to react as if my life were in danger and "haul ass backwards" draw and engage. The second time I did, and did even worse.
The next time he emphasized to haul ass but NOT SPEED UP MY TRIGGER PRESSES, Keep them separate (kinda of like the ole pat your head ,rub your stomach at the same time real fast challenge). Well, the next two times I was able to score A-zone hits 5 of 6 shots and the "flyer" was still on the silhouette (chest hit). Distances started at 7yrds and finished my last hit at about 18yrds.
Now I know is moving straight back as opposed to lateral movement, but it was eye opening for me and believe with the proper instructor and practice one can become proficient at some shooting on the move.
Just my 2 cents.
Cause that worked so well for Pickett and Lee.
You must have missed the "caught in open, handgun in hand" portion
You must have missed the "caught in open, handgun in hand" portion
Whether by choice or not, both situations had you in the open with only small arms. Reducing your ability to land effective hits while simultaneously making yourself a bigger target to your opponent is a good way to commit suicide.
Boils down to tactics I'd rather not lay on the ground and take fire
El Vaquero
05-03-15, 22:53
Caught in the open, weapon in hand, ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK, CLOSE THE DISTANCE. Apply much violence of action
Like it or not, this tactic has worked surprisingly well by bad guys when used against LEO's. I'd like to think this is what the the OP's cop buddy was trying to say when explaining his tactic.
Dirtyharry1
05-04-15, 00:36
For those of you that are debating weather you should shoot on the move, record a video of yourself actually moving while trying get good hits, even if the targets are at relatively close range. You will be surprised.
As a Grunt in VN in the 70's, we were ordered to "assault the VC's position". Basically stand up and walk forward firing at rock and roll, sweeping the area with fire. Pretty effective at close ranges. Urban areas, not such a good idea.
OP, it's kind of concerning that your friend who is a LEO would take such a risky and cavalier position. Walking at a gunman while he's firing at me while there's also cover available sounds like a good way to be remembered by the officers who ended the fight.
I'd take cover and wait for breaks to advance.
2nd scenario, I'd immediately drop down, possibly look like I've been hit. Odds are he will approach or flea. If he turns to flea there's your break to pursue or if he makes a motion towards you there's possibly still a break in fire to your advantage. There's imminent risk involved running crop circles around the guy too. like said above 35 yards, you're still a big target.
I guess that a moving target is harder to hit than a standing erect one but minimally sized targets are too but in prone really the only thing he has to aim at is extremely vital.
Movement in open area while engaged? Serpentine!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC0keDGobck
El Vaquero
05-04-15, 18:44
This is the video I think of when I hear about violence of action. This is where a former Marine guns down a couple of LEO's. He does use cover, but he breaks from it and advances very quickly while at the same time firing. It's defintelty not a walk and shoot but a run and shoot.
http://www.military.com/video/law-enforcement/police/warfighter-murders-police-officer/1575555331001/
I have to start this by saying that I have never been in an actual gun fight, but I believe I have learned some very valuable lessons in quite a bit a scenario-based training and in many conversations with the guys who have been involved in gunfights, both as LEOs and soldiers.
Some of the early training that we did was done with airsoft weapons which basically fire little plastic BB's. Later, when we began to do more training with sim rounds I quickly realized that I agreed with the Paul Howe school of thought, that is if I wasn't shooting I was sprinting to get to my next position of cover. I become both bold and a little careless when the only penalty was the occasional BB bouncing off of me. The welts and wounds from the Sim rounds, while a far cry from a real bullet wound, were much more "memorable". I have a few t-shirts that I keep around as the holes are a somber reminder of what happens in gunfights.
A great drill that I remember from our basic training had a mock street setting complete with cars, mailboxes, light poles, curbs and store fronts. The " bad guy" was an instructor behind a plexiglass shield who was firing paint balls at us as we attempted to take him out with hits to a couple smallish boxes on the plexiglass that simulated his vitals. Amazing how you can find cover, as others have said, behind curbs and light posts that would seem to be too small at first glance.
The other part of the drill is learning to be in a position ready to shoot as soon as you become exposed. That is, being aimed in and just needing to acquire the target as you expose yourself from cover. If you pop out from behind cover and have to take the time to get your weapon into a firing position, find your sights and then try to line up the target you would be rewarded with a multitude of paintballs to your face. Tough to convince your peers that you won, when you go out of the training area and you like like a van Gogh painting.
In our sim training we alternated between being in full gear on some drills and nothing but a t-shirt on others. If you've ever been hit with a sim round in CQB or even slightly further distances you'll understand that they are very painful and get the point across quickly about where you should and shouldn't have been in that particular gunfight.
edited to add: my apologies I wrote that whole long winded thing and then realized this thread is about moving without cover. In that regard I have a much shorter thought; make yourself as small as possible (kneeling, prone) while maintaining a decent shooting platform and return fire accurately.
This is the video I think of when I hear about violence of action. This is where a former Marine guns down a couple of LEO's. He does use cover, but he breaks from it and advances very quickly while at the same time firing. It's defintelty not a walk and shoot but a run and shoot.
http://www.military.com/video/law-enforcement/police/warfighter-murders-police-officer/1575555331001/
that video changed my point of view, thanks for posting
This is the video I think of when I hear about violence of action. This is where a former Marine guns down a couple of LEO's. He does use cover, but he breaks from it and advances very quickly while at the same time firing. It's defintelty not a walk and shoot but a run and shoot.
http://www.military.com/video/law-enforcement/police/warfighter-murders-police-officer/1575555331001/
If i watched the video correctly. Advancing on the officer had nothing to do with wounding him. He not only had a rifle to a pistol, but he also got him first shot before he ever started moving.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-08-15, 12:33
I don't think the OP said it explicitly, but I took the scenario to mean a good guy with against a bad guy with a rifle on a flat hard surface. The lethality and hit rate of the rifle isn't going to go up much moving closer, but the hit rate of the handgun will- though as people have mentioned, moving decreases hit rate. Flat and hard, no real advantage to going prone, right? For a CCW, you often will not have a hi-cap mag. If you have eight shots, do you stand and try to get as many COM hits as possible?
Is there answer, or is it just a bad day?
El Vaquero
05-09-15, 01:36
I think in the end you go with what you have trained, practiced, and are comfortable with. If caught out in the open at 35 yards where both bad guy and I have pistols I would probably take my chances shooting it out right there knowing the odds of him being a better shot than me at 35 yards are slim (we all know that bad guys are incredibly lucky and seem to have magic bullets that heat speek LEO's somehow though).
If bad guy has rifle and I have pistol I'm probably going to run to create distance and make me a harder target to hit. I'm not going to shoot while running though. Run>>> find cover>>> shoot. A rifle vs pistol scenario is almost as bad as a pistol vs knife. The dude with the rifle would have to be pretty crappy or be having a real bad day for him to lose that fight.
A ton of scenarios out there, but I think if you're the CCW and an active shooter scenario occurs right in front of you and you only have around 8 rounds or a snubby revolver on you...If it is your intent on killing the bad guy I think the best chance would be to advance to close the distance for a better shot, that's IF, the shooter is distracted and not focused on you. If he is focused on you then it just may be a bad day for you.
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