View Full Version : H&K on the brink... H&K G36 is apparently a POS
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-13-15, 18:32
The G36, apparently, is doomed. H&K looks like they are losing the PR war on this one. I don't know if the G36 really has poorer hot-barrel accuracy than competing platforms, but at this point it looks like the issue is lost. I seriously doubt H&K will survive this.
In the German Armed Forces, the G36 is on the bubble, even after the military has accepted hundreds of thousands of these rifles already. The MOD is seriously considering selecting some different rifle as an interim rifle. HK thought they could lobby their way out of trouble, and they have failed; as the only likely complete solution provider inside Germany, the bad odor they are now in with the major parties (CDU, SPD, and even the anti-defense Greens) means they have an uphill fight to either prevent the replacement of the G36, or provide the substitute.
http://weaponsman.com/?p=22017
It's been an open secret for a while that a moderate use G36 has had snags. I was disillusioned of them myself and anyone who still had any in issue before going to an AR-15 less than affectionately referred to them as "street sweepers" for not being able to retain zero after a while.
It is rather sad, because an updated AR-18, which it was intended to be, had promise. But after nigh in 20 years, with a war and peacekeeping in between, it is time to own up.
I sorta thought, and hope that they do, just do a one for one of HK416s and put the G36 out as parts kits so the video game and hobby crowd can do conversions.
Why they haven't already had all issue 416s now vexes me.
Well they could always get the contract to supply 416s. Not saying that they will, but H&K has needed to remove head from ass for some time, maybe this will be the catalyst for them to do so. I mean, we know they can build decent rifle and pistols, the question is can they sell those rifles and pistols.
On a nerd note, would quite like a G36, or semi, not jacked up PC version, of the rifle. Got to run a G36C one time, and was a neat rifle, had issues, but was neat none the less, though was a bitch to control on FA compared to the MP5, which to be honest if I could have one FA gun that would be it.
On a side note, wasn't H&K supposed to be bringing in a civy version of the rifle this year or did that end up getting scrapped?
That's sucks for HK. I've always thought the G36 was a cool rifle, but have no experience in it. Its one of the most popular rifles in movies.
Cincinnatus
04-13-15, 19:17
Greg,
When you say you doubt HK will survive this, what do you mean? They will go out of business? Or just lose this fight on the G36?
On a side note, wasn't H&K supposed to be bringing in a civy version of the rifle this year or did that end up getting scrapped?
I have read that as well and think it would be sort of pointless. I'm not a SCAR person but would sooner have that rifle if I just felt that I needed a folding stock. (I don't).
The HK41x series is HKs future and salvation at this point. G28s to replace aging SG1s and MSG90s. 416s to replace G36s.
They have stuff that works. They just need to let it sell. On the commercial side, a light profile 556 barrel would go such a long way.
Natural selection is telling us that the AR is pretty much
the platform and the days of everyone having their own NATO rifle and own NATO mag need to go away.
MountainRaven
04-13-15, 19:34
The 416 costs too much. The Germans will never cough up the money for them. The only country on earth to adopt it for general issue is a major oil producer.
H&K has already offered to develop a fix, to implement the fix for future production, and to retrofit all G36s in the German inventory at no cost to the German government. The German government refused.
At this point, my money is on either nothing will happen or the infantry of the Bundeswehr will be doing quals with rocks.
Cincinnatus
04-13-15, 19:43
This thread is very illuminating, especially the comments made by persons in Germany familiar with German politics.
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-long-gun-talk/215877-g36-has-thermo-issues-newest-test-show-7.html
I have read that as well and think it would be sort of pointless. I'm not a SCAR person but would sooner have that rifle if I just felt that I needed a folding stock. (I don't).
The HK41x series is HKs future and salvation at this point. G28s to replace aging SG1s and MSG90s. 416s to replace G36s.
They have stuff that works. They just need to let it sell. On the commercial side, a light profile 556 barrel would go such a long way.
Natural selection is telling us that the AR is pretty much
the platform and the days of everyone having their own NATO rifle and own NATO mag need to go away.
I don't think it would be pointless. If the rifle needed to perform better than X, Y, or Z to be sold then there would be a whole hell of a lot less rifles on the market. Hell, if we took that tact, I doubt we'd see a lot of rifles that are on the market that many consider decent, SCAR included.
I also think if they offered the semi version it would sell, and while not hit in the tactical crowd it would reach the collector(If it wasn't a jacked up rifle like the SL8), and those wanting something different, or just general firearm enthusiast, hell look at the SIG 5.56 rifles that they have brought in in recent years. Some of those were of dubious quality, often more expensive than a quality AR and still sold like hot cakes. Or even the MKE rifles of the MP5 linage, look at how well they sold. The market is there for them to sell to if they just get head from ass and figure out how to get the rifles here, or how to get manufacturing out of Germany. Military contracts may have been their life blood, but commercial sales will be their saving grace if they can figure that shit out.
All that said. Anything we think is speculation. Wasn't H&K supposed to go under and be sold a couple years ago, or what is last year, or ten years earlier. As with anything, I will wait to see what happens.
My old team leader was stationed in Germany for a bit and went to one of those training exercises (there is a name for it that I cant remember) where you do familiarity fire with each others weapons. He said specifically that the German soldiers wished they had M16/M4s and said the rifles became inaccurate when hot. This was back in the early 2000s.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-13-15, 20:45
Well I have always admired H&K. A very large percentage of firearms innovations over the last 50 years have come out of their little engineering firm. I hope this is all BS but there sure is a lot of smoke at this point.
call_me_ski
04-14-15, 02:27
Short of having access to test rifles it is hard to say. Politics can make the most simple things murky. If what is said is true it shouldn't be hard for someone(known shooter) to grab a few g36 rifles and fire a 3 short group, a 60rd dump followed by a three shot group. repeat the experiment with a few quality ar's and a few scar's to act as a control. optics used should be the same for all rifles.
there must by an SOT with all three rifles, a few hundred rounds of ammo and access to a 100yd range.
Meta-Prometheus
04-14-15, 15:37
Crappy deal for HK I guess. I would like to see them come out of it unscathed, but who knows for sure. I really like their newer P30/VP9 pistols. Just a shame that their German contract G36's aren't cutting it. I've never even seen or handled a G36 variant at all the MG shoots I've been at.
The G36, apparently, is doomed. H&K looks like they are losing the PR war on this one. I don't know if the G36 really has poorer hot-barrel accuracy than competing platforms, but at this point it looks like the issue is lost. I seriously doubt H&K will survive this.
http://weaponsman.com/?p=22017
Being a largely-polymer rifle I guess it makes sense there's more flex than they might have anticipated when it gets hot? I'm no engineer, but we know HK has some smart people and could (if they admit there's a problem in the first place, which is not a strong point of HK as I understand it) come up with a fix. It seems some of the German manufacturers, HK and regional, Glock, not known for their humility or admission of design flaws. It's probably still more accurate hot than your average AK. :ph34r:
I kid.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-14-15, 17:12
Given the political climate in Germany, and the fact that, apparently, the military hasn't even consulted HK about the problem I wonder if it might be trumped-up. There have been people trying to destroy HK in Germany for years (Red/Green coalition types and their version of the late Frauline Brady). On the other hand, you would have to be really dumb to destroy all domestic military small arms production but we are talking about left-wing types here.
On the other hand, you would have to be really dumb to destroy all domestic military small arms production but we are talking about left-wing types here.
But there are plenty who are that dumb and even dumber. Lots of people living in sugar coated fairly lands who things everyone thinks like they do, or should, and that you can make people act in a particular way. Sadly the only way they will learn is the hard way, and it will cost lives, and likely not their own.
Given the political climate in Germany, and the fact that, apparently, the military hasn't even consulted HK about the problem I wonder if it might be trumped-up. There have been people trying to destroy HK in Germany for years (Red/Green coalition types and their version of the late Frauline Brady). On the other hand, you would have to be really dumb to destroy all domestic military small arms production but we are talking about left-wing types here.
If HK has been under the types of pressure US manufacturers have over the years in the US, that makes perfect sense.
ramairthree
04-14-15, 18:49
How much is the 416 compared to the 36?
Chatterbox
04-14-15, 19:46
How much is the 416 compared to the 36?
416 apparently runs about 1500$ when sold to government users. Don't know about G36.
MountainRaven
04-14-15, 20:26
416 apparently runs about 1500$ when sold to government users. Don't know about G36.
You number for the 416 seems low.
However, when H&K was trying to sell the US government the XM8, they were saying that per unit cost (with accessories) would be less than what the M4 cost, which I believe was something like $980 (under $1000 in any case).
Chatterbox
04-14-15, 20:52
You number for the 416 seems low.
However, when H&K was trying to sell the US government the XM8, they were saying that per unit cost (with accessories) would be less than what the M4 cost, which I believe was something like $980 (under $1000 in any case).
Perhaps, I'm just going by what other people say:
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/101844-price-hk-416-a.html#post752948
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/101844-price-hk-416-a.html#post754514
Cincinnatus
04-14-15, 20:57
Given the political climate in Germany, and the fact that, apparently, the military hasn't even consulted HK about the problem I wonder if it might be trumped-up. There have been people trying to destroy HK in Germany for years (Red/Green coalition types and their version of the late Frauline Brady). On the other hand, you would have to be really dumb to destroy all domestic military small arms production but we are talking about left-wing types here.
I think there is probably lots of politics clouding the "issue", if the issue even exists, just like there was a bunch of political stuff clouding issue of M4 performance at Wanat and elsewhere. But then there is the German left's hatred for the military and HK that's part of it, too.
I don't speak/understand German, so forgive the stupid question:
When they say it loses all accuracy when it gets hot, does the weapon regain accuracy upon cooling or is there irreversible damage done to the weapon upon getting hot and it will never shoot accurately again?
Chatterbox
04-14-15, 21:14
I don't speak/understand German, so forgive the stupid question:
When they say it loses all accuracy when it gets hot, does the weapon regain accuracy upon cooling or is there irreversible damage done to the weapon upon getting hot and it will never shoot accurately again?
From what I understand of the issue, it's related to the barrel melting the plastic "trunnion" it's set into. This results in shifting zero. After the plastic resolidifies, the rifle can be rezeroed, but of course the next time it's fired intensively it will melt again.
Cincinnatus
04-14-15, 21:18
The trunion is steel, the plastic it is set into is not.
MountainRaven
04-14-15, 21:22
Perhaps, I'm just going by what other people say:
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/101844-price-hk-416-a.html#post752948
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/101844-price-hk-416-a.html#post754514
$1650 is 10% more than $1500. And that was six years ago. Finding anything more recent is... problematic. The most recent source I could find is a source quoting $13,000,000 for 6,500 M27 IARs in 2013 (which comes out to $2000 a pop - although what all that includes, I do not know).
This is news only now when stories about the G36 accuracy/plastic problems have been circulating since forever?
Maybe Germany should just buy Colt M4's and call it a day.
Chatterbox
04-14-15, 21:30
$1650 is 10% more than $1500. And that was six years ago. Finding anything more recent is... problematic. The most recent source I could find is a source quoting $13,000,000 for 6,500 M27 IARs in 2013 (which comes out to $2000 a pop - although what all that includes, I do not know).
Second posting I linked to refers to $1,521.84 purchase price, which is about 1.04% more then $1500.
MountainRaven
04-14-15, 21:39
Second posting I linked to refers to $1,521.84 purchase price, which is about 1.04% more then $1500.
I know who Va_Dinger/Grey Group is. I don't know who D.E. Watters is.
Chatterbox
04-14-15, 23:22
I know who Va_Dinger/Grey Group is. I don't know who D.E. Watters is.
A writer for "The Gun Zone".
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-14-15, 23:59
This article says the the German army is saying that the pencil barrel is the issue (which makes sense...everybody runs into this issue with a pencil barrel). Sounds like a heavy barrel swap is in their future like we have recently done with our M4s.
http://www.guns.com/2015/03/31/german-bundeswehr-confirms-g36-issues/
SmokinGunMP5
04-15-15, 05:49
Random thought here but what's to stop HK from making a G36 receiver out of aluminum/steel/metal/etc?
German Army demanded very light and cheap rifle. Also HK can not make any changes to G36 (versions delivered to German Army) without request to do so. "Export" versions of G36 are far more advanced than "issue" model.
Besides, problems are not with receiver. It always was pencil barrel. That is why for role of automatic rifle or light machine gun HK introduced MG36. Same receiver but works much better than G36 in sustained fire. Actually MG36 was used in phase of "proof of concept" tests in USMC IAR program. Apparently it worked well and USMC went forward with IAR concept.
Moose-Knuckle
04-15-15, 08:16
They should just adopt the Bushmaster ACR . . .
:jester:
They should just adopt the Bushmaster ACR . . .
:jester:
Best line in this entire thread.
Who knows, maybe it'd make 'em appreciate the G36 more. :sarcastic:
MorphCross
04-15-15, 21:03
German Army demanded very light and cheap rifle. Also HK can not make any changes to G36 (versions delivered to German Army) without request to do so. "Export" versions of G36 are far more advanced than "issue" model.
Besides, problems are not with receiver. It always was pencil barrel. That is why for role of automatic rifle or light machine gun HK introduced MG36. Same receiver but works much better than G36 in sustained fire. Actually MG36 was used in phase of "proof of concept" tests in USMC IAR program. Apparently it worked well and USMC went forward with IAR concept.
You're telling me they can't use an individual weapon as a Squad machine gun? I'm shocked, shocked I say! /Sarcasm[Heavy]
On a more serious note, it isn't the least bit surprising that it is as much a user/training issue as it is an equipment issue.
vicious_cb
04-16-15, 06:08
This article says the the German army is saying that the pencil barrel is the issue (which makes sense...everybody runs into this issue with a pencil barrel). Sounds like a heavy barrel swap is in their future like we have recently done with our M4s.
http://www.guns.com/2015/03/31/german-bundeswehr-confirms-g36-issues/
Pretty thats not the case. They've reports from independent testing has come out that after the gun heats up it can throw shots up to 20" off target at 100m. Even a hot pencil barrel wont do this.
Plenty of articles about the issue if you are willing to google translate:
http://wefind.stern.de/stern/search?query=G36+gewehr
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-16-15, 09:41
I could be wrong, but I think Stern is a left-wing scandal sheet
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-16-15, 09:58
http://www.n-tv.de/mediathek/videos/politik/Sturmgewehr-G36-hat-ein-Praezisionsproblem-article14812211.html?utm_source=RUN_spiegel&utm_medium=video&utm_campaign=veeseo_RUN
http://www.n-tv.de/mediathek/videos/politik/Sturmgewehr-G36-hat-ein-Praezisionsproblem-article14812211.html?utm_source=RUN_spiegel&utm_medium=video&utm_campaign=veeseo_RUN
Sturmgewehr G36 hat "ein Präzisionsproblem
Dat one translates into English well. :cool:
I could be wrong, but I think Stern is a left-wing scandal sheet
And very supportive to "shut down HK" project of some extremely lefty / green politicians.
They even planned to build concrete "sarcophagus" over HK plantm by dumping concrete from helicopters. Seriously. They even had crowd-funding campaign on that:
https://youtu.be/tvPoncNYF5g
Montrala, that video made me laugh until I realized that these are grown, employed people who vote and they actually believe in and support such a travesty and effrontery to all which is decent.
I remember when everyone said Colt was going under too. Remember the Colt 2000? The Double Eagle? The "Smart Gun" which instead of being like the one from Aliens with a belt drum and an IHADSS it was a lame conceptual 9mm that you had to wear a ring to shoot. Dark times but now we have factory 20" A4s, 6920s at Walmart, the OEM, and respectable 1911 offerings.
Peaks and valleys. I never cared for the G36. The V stock looks great but my only experience was with the skeleton stock which felt like shouldering a weird piece of plastic. It did okay but I hate the combat optic and it didn't hold a pattern as keen as the M4.
Seriously, I think the 41x is the right direction. The roller system is gone and not coming back and the G36 is long in the tooth
YMMV
Montrala, that video made me laugh until I realized that these are grown, employed people who vote and they actually believe in and support such a travesty and effrontery to all which is decent.
This idea was conceived by elected Member of the Parliament. I do not remember name of this nice lady now, but she was really full of righteous, progressive ideas. Those ideas are very popular in Germany those times.
vicious_cb
04-18-15, 09:00
Its not looking good for HK, apparently they changed to a cheaper polymer then forged the army testing marks on the rifles.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/18/breaking-news-g36s-cannot-hold-accuracy-bundeswehr-report-confirms/
Its not looking good for HK, apparently they changed to a cheaper polymer then forged the army testing marks on the rifles.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/18/breaking-news-g36s-cannot-hold-accuracy-bundeswehr-report-confirms/
Wow. If that part is true, I think HK can kiss future contracts good bye, at least for the foreseeable future.
DreadPirateMoyer
04-18-15, 10:21
I hope the part about the plastic mix isn't true, and if it is, that it hasn't entered their pistols. I own many HK pistols, and if they have junk plastic in them, I'll be less than happy, especially after dealing with crap like this from Glock for so many years.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-18-15, 11:47
I would be surprised if HK doesn't end up on the ash-heap after this. What a disaster. 99% of their reputation was based on their image as a manufacturer who put quality above all other concerns. Apparently they were also counterfeiting acceptance marks? Wow.
I hope this is BS. Ain't looking good.
Cincinnatus
04-18-15, 12:52
Anything sourced ultimately from the German press should be treated as BS unless proven otherwise. Just like we would treat any info from our mainstream media on anything firearm related.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-18-15, 15:02
Fair point.
Worst case scenario:
Let's assume HK gets actually implicated in malfeasance.
Then what?
Despite the Greens party fantasy, I just don't see Germany scrapping all their HK stuff and going to Colt Canada or someone for an entire re-equip.
If Crystal Pepsi didn't kill Pepsi, I don't see potluck G36s burying HK. Unless I completely misunderstand or something (which is possible)
It might change hands again but overall, HK still has a solid rep.
I mean for all the flaws of the G36 ( and there are several), it isn't as bad as initial GI M16 fielding where it was like they were almost trying to screw it all up.
Interesting.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-18-15, 16:53
I sure hope so. I am concerned that HK's precarious financial situation, dead military market and the euro Left's fantasy of weaponless nations may eat them.
If anyone has access and can get on Moody's Analytical site, look up HK.. Moody's doesn't pull any punches concerning HK's finances....They've been riding the razor's edge for some time..
DaBears_85
04-19-15, 05:03
Call me a spielverderber, but I'm rather pleased with the G36's underperformance. Germans make me nervous.
Incidentally, I bet the G36 performs exponentially better than the broomsticks they were fielding earlier this year.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-19-15, 06:03
I sure hope so. I am concerned that HK's precarious financial situation, dead military market and the euro Left's fantasy of weaponless nations may eat them.
Polymer PSP.
Boom, problems solved... ;)
Wow. This is all very troubling. Are Euros hoping to avoid a Eurozone war by shutting down as much production as possible?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dionysusigma
04-19-15, 14:06
I hope not.
At least, not until after HK moves production of P30 magazines (really, all magazines) to Columbus, GA...
I know who Va_Dinger/Grey Group is. I don't know who D.E. Watters is.
A writer for "The Gun Zone".
And I occasionally post here as well.
Charlie Don't Surf
04-19-15, 19:28
I sure hope so. I am concerned that HK's precarious financial situation, dead military market and the euro Left's fantasy of weaponless nations may eat them.
Probably wouldn't solve ALL of their financial woes, but I have something that would help a great deal: VP45
If you build it, they will buy...........
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-19-15, 19:53
No doubt they need to...
1. Vp9/40 C (G19) and SK
2. VP45 FS and C
3. 416 with lighter barrel profile (although, given this, we can see why they don't like lightweight barrels lol)
Charlie Don't Surf
04-19-15, 19:56
No doubt they need to...
1. Vp9/40 C (G19) and SK
2. VP45 FS and C
3. 416 with lighter barrel profile (although, given this, we can see why they don't like lightweight barrels lol)
Indeed to all of the above, even just a 416 upper would do wonders in the American market..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hmm....I don't see what good a 416 upper will do. The M4 cut is sort of pointless and the chrome lining is kind of unnecessary given how the barrel is treated.
Same for the factory 7 inch rail. The whole 416 rifle, for all of its pluses, is still very much a product of the mid 2000s.
I don't think it needs a pencil barrel but it could be lighter. The factory keymod is an idea but from the factory Geissele rail would be another. Make the special takedown pins optional instead of proprietary. Offer the ambi lower and factory RAL 8000.
I'm sure it could still be competitive. Offer factory 14.5 and 10.3 barrels.
The only thing keeping me from an MR556 is additional cost of a longer Geissele rail and fat barrel. I would sooner invest in HKs piston system than FNs.
They have the same problem Glock does. They don't take suggestions very well and ignore the aftermarket.
A 16.5 HBAR with a 7" monorail. Come on man...
Hmm....I don't see what good a 416 upper will do. The M4 cut is sort of pointless and the chrome lining is kind of unnecessary given how the barrel is treated.
Same for the factory 7 inch rail. The whole 416 rifle, for all of its pluses, is still very much a product of the mid 2000s.
I don't think it needs a pencil barrel but it could be lighter. The factory keymod is an idea but from the factory Geissele rail would be another. Make the special takedown pins optional instead of proprietary. Offer the ambi lower and factory RAL 8000.
I'm sure it could still be competitive. Offer factory 14.5 and 10.3 barrels.
The only thing keeping me from an MR556 is additional cost of a longer Geissele rail and fat barrel. I would sooner invest in HKs piston system than FNs.
They have the same problem Glock does. They don't take suggestions very well and ignore the aftermarket.
A 16.5 HBAR with a 7" monorail. Come on man...
Brother, when did common sense enter the minds of the majority of the people buying guns? Am dead serious, if you don't believe me then go to a gunshow, big box gun store, or 90% of forums. I mean bipods, offset scopes, flare launchers, IR illuminators with no NV, massive barrett style muzzle brakes on shotguns, ect. And this is just the shit that I see on people's homedefense rigs. If it said H&K, was to spec, and reasonable in price, it would sell like porn, because there are still a lot of yahoos who think piston is 100 million, billion, gazillion, times better than DI, because it has more parts and someone online said so, so it must be.
Charlie Don't Surf
04-19-15, 20:29
Hmm....I don't see what good a 416 upper will do. The M4 cut is sort of pointless and the chrome lining is kind of unnecessary given how the barrel is treated.
Same for the factory 7 inch rail. The whole 416 rifle, for all of its pluses, is still very much a product of the mid 2000s.
I don't think it needs a pencil barrel but it could be lighter. The factory keymod is an idea but from the factory Geissele rail would be another. Make the special takedown pins optional instead of proprietary. Offer the ambi lower and factory RAL 8000.
I'm sure it could still be competitive. Offer factory 14.5 and 10.3 barrels.
The only thing keeping me from an MR556 is additional cost of a longer Geissele rail and fat barrel. I would sooner invest in HKs piston system than FNs.
They have the same problem Glock does. They don't take suggestions very well and ignore the aftermarket.
A 16.5 HBAR with a 7" monorail. Come on man...
All true. I still have dreams of a IAR, which if if IRC is simply a 16.5" 416. The rail system certainly needs to be updated. I myself am hooked on the BCM keymod.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The accuracy issues of the G36 are not nearly as bad as these articles would have you believe and have little or nothing to do with a "pencil" or light weight barrel. Bemoaning the death knell of HK is also a bit premature. Every major gun manufacturer has had it's ups and downs. How many times has Colt filed bankruptcy?
I would take everything stated in those articles with a grain of salt...much like we do with main stream media reporting here in the states.
Serious Account
04-21-15, 00:02
The accuracy issues of the G36 are not nearly as bad as these articles would have you believe and have little or nothing to do with a "pencil" or light weight barrel. Bemoaning the death knell of HK is also a bit premature. Every major gun manufacturer has had it's ups and downs. How many times has Colt filed bankruptcy?
I would take everything stated in those articles with a grain of salt...much like we do with main stream media reporting here in the states.
So what is the real problem here, and will we ever know for certain? Was the test itself 'rigged' to make HK look bad?
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-21-15, 20:45
I have my suspicions. Even here we have political "dust tests" and MSNBC rigging reports and stuff like that. Things like them stepping on the plastic formula is probably crap. They probably changed the formula for other reasons (hell, it probably reduces brittleness, UV sensitivity, etc). The media loves to jump on little things like that and pretend they know what they are looking at.
I don't doubt the rifle is less accurate when hot than the AR (it was going to be one way or the other). I am sure it also runs better dirty than the AR (see various dust tests). Hopefully HK can turn this into an order for 300,000 416s. Or hell maybe they can re-man up and adopt the 417.
Hmm. In all of these tests I notice a lot of 'grass is greener'.
Everyone thinks some other rifle they don't have is the answer.
From SCARs to piston AR to AR-18 derivatives to Kalashnikov style right back to regular ARs.
Bleh.
In my experience, the G36 did lose a pattern but it wasn't too crazy just outside a personal comfort zone. It never really got to barn door Mini 14 levels usually. The built in optic felt awkward and had no real good eye relief.
In all fairness, if you had a rifle you were going to carfy a lot and shoot not so much, it wouldnt be bad. The V stock should be standard as well as the pic rail and an ACOG. The dual optic was a good idea well outmoded now by ACOG/RMR but nobody needed me to point that out.
It is just a real weird product of the 90s that seemed like a great idea at the time but you look back like "lol wow what was going on there"
And excellent point. The Media gets their gun info from politicians, street hooligans, small children, video game manuals, and just whatever sounds maybe believable but totally garbage.
Still it is kinda time to move on to a streamlined AR like the 416.
ETA: I also know that most police that dumped the G36 did so because of replacement magazine cost, maintenance, getting dept armorers trained, and plain cross commonality. Most law enforcement agencies aren't going to run a rifle that hard. Most breakages occur due to being tossed unsecured in a trunk or being issued to 'that blanking guy'. An (American) police outfit scrapping the G36 starts meaning less when there are still a few places still handing out the odd Mini 14 or two. Like New York City. Who most verifiably used the Mini 14 into the 21st century.
leibermuster
04-22-15, 08:39
But there are plenty who are that dumb and even dumber. Lots of people living in sugar coated fairly lands who things everyone thinks like they do, or should, and that you can make people act in a particular way. Sadly the only way they will learn is the hard way, and it will cost lives, and likely not their own.
This is true and in the case in Germany it is at an all time high.
Anytime a trunnion is mounted directly into polymer you will see some accuracy degradation if you get the polymer hot enough. Simple fact. In my time working for the HK International Training Division I had zero first hand experience with any G36 going from an acceptable accuracy to what is described in the articles during the Tac Rifle classes.
As Greg and others have alluded to the German media sources would seem to have an agenda. Not that we here in the US would know anything about the media trying to impede firearms ownership or paint firearms in a less then positive light through the use of misleading and outright false information. (heavy sarcasm obviously implied.)
Being a largely-polymer rifle I guess it makes sense there's more flex than they might have anticipated when it gets hot? I'm no engineer, but we know HK has some smart people and could (if they admit there's a problem in the first place, which is not a strong point of HK as I understand it) come up with a fix. It seems some of the German manufacturers, HK and regional, Glock, not known for their humility or admission of design flaws. It's probably still more accurate hot than your average AK. :ph34r:
I kid.
A core of truth there. It is typical Teutonic stubbornness fueled by arrogance. The only constant at HK is its inability to cope with the big picture.
When the rifle gets hot it shoots off by as much as 20" at 100 meters? I think an AK would blow that accuracy away.
BTW: I know its not that important, but does anyone else think the G36 is truly ugly rifle.
In my experience, the G36 did lose a pattern but it wasn't too crazy just outside a personal comfort zone. It never really got to barn door Mini 14 levels usually. The built in optic felt awkward and had no real good eye relief.
In all fairness, if you had a rifle you were going to carfy a lot and shoot not so much, it wouldnt be bad.........
What? I'm frankly not sure what you mean. The point of a rifle is not that you carry it a lot, it has to perform when you need it to. And BTW I can shoot my two newer Mini-14s all day long and never outside of 5moa. Most ARs (including my own rifles) with standard crap ammo won't shoot better than 2-3 moa unless you feed them better ammo, same with my SCAR 16s.
They reported in the article 20" at 100 meters for the G36, a little less than 20 moa. So let's say they are way off by 50 percent or 10moa or even 5moa. For a rifle in that class to shoot as well or worse than a Mini-14 is inexcusable.
I don't see how anyone can make excuses for HK on this. Of course not being LE or Military I'm not a fan of most HK weapons.
The newer Minis aren't as bad as some they cranked out years ago. I will grant you.
As with the rest, well what can I say...some entities place different priorities on weaponry. Ideally, yes, you want good kit. Sometimes you just don't get it.
To be fair, the G36 was built with good intentions to modernize the Bundeswehr. It has flaws but aside from peacekeeping in Kosovo (which even in the 90s people were still uneasy with Germany sending soldiers on deployments), the G36 did not start start seeing real combat until the GWOT. It was made after the Wall came down and before 9/11. It is simply a product of its time.
In 1995 nobody really thought German soldiers would be in protracted firefights. They didn't think American soldiers would for that matter.
I don't think anyone is "excusing" HK. The stock G36 wouldn't be my first choice as I found it uncomfortable in its stock configuration. It is not bad but it's not an AR. HK has since made a nicer rifle. I proffer that the thesis is that Germany is having a culture issue and their press is besmirching a high profile German arms manufacturer.
These are the ivory tower types who fail to realize that the world is a lot farther away from world peace than it has ever been since WW2 and don't want to accept that they may, as a nation, have to have some responsibility in keeping people from getting beheaded or gunned down in the streets of their own nation because of whatever 'blasphemy' of the week. Classic Beta move. Try to exculpate yourself from outside reprisal by attacking your own contemporaries.
A bit more than just G36 ennui but there it is.
Tl; dr HK overall is good stuff and people like drama
vicious_cb
04-22-15, 22:20
HK responds with saying essentially "If you wanted more heat resistance then get a Hbar!"
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/22/heckler-koch-fires-back-at-g36-audit-report/
Charlie Don't Surf
04-22-15, 22:52
HK responds with saying essentially "If you wanted more heat resistance then get a Hbar!"
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/22/heckler-koch-fires-back-at-g36-audit-report/
Sounds like a non-denial to me. Some people have been asking why now is this finally being discussed. Maybe somebody high up in Berlin calculated that Germany might find herself in a war not too long from now and decided their G36 doesn't cut it.
Serious Account
04-23-15, 01:55
Looking back, I remember Larry Vickers did say something about this issue. I think he said this is one of those things that you can't get HK to talk about and that it is one of the dark 'not so secret" of the G36
HK responds with saying essentially "If you wanted more heat resistance then get a Hbar!"
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/22/heckler-koch-fires-back-at-g36-audit-report/
"You don't like and have problems with our guns? Should have bought one of our different guns!".
Not exactly what I'd call an effective PR strategy. HK can't just say it's because there isn't a heavy barrel. Loads of other similar weapons don't have this issue and they use a standard or even pencil barrel.
Charlie Don't Surf
04-23-15, 16:38
Looking back, I remember Larry Vickers did say something about this issue. I think he said this is one of those things that you can't get HK to talk about and that it is one of the dark 'not so secret" of the G36
I also remember that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM3a_kp6yMU
Fast forward to 11:15 in the video.
And very supportive to "shut down HK" project of some extremely lefty / green politicians.
They even planned to build concrete "sarcophagus" over HK plantm by dumping concrete from helicopters. Seriously. They even had crowd-funding campaign on that:
https://youtu.be/tvPoncNYF5g
Jesus Christ. I have seen some stupid shit in my day, but this may very well take the cake.
German leftards may actually put American Marxists to shame in the retardation department.
Hmm....I don't see what good a 416 upper will do. The M4 cut is sort of pointless and the chrome lining is kind of unnecessary given how the barrel is treated.
Same for the factory 7 inch rail. The whole 416 rifle, for all of its pluses, is still very much a product of the mid 2000s.
I don't think it needs a pencil barrel but it could be lighter. The factory keymod is an idea but from the factory Geissele rail would be another. Make the special takedown pins optional instead of proprietary. Offer the ambi lower and factory RAL 8000.
I'm sure it could still be competitive. Offer factory 14.5 and 10.3 barrels.
The only thing keeping me from an MR556 is additional cost of a longer Geissele rail and fat barrel. I would sooner invest in HKs piston system than FNs.
They have the same problem Glock does. They don't take suggestions very well and ignore the aftermarket.
A 16.5 HBAR with a 7" monorail. Come on man...
There are a few things that are not on point with your post.
HK can supply the barrel profile and length the end user desires - there is no factory standard. There are versions with the M4 profile barrel, and then you have the HK416N (Norwegian) and the M27, which has a slightly thicker barrel.
The standard length quad rail on the HK416 is not 7", it is 9".
The HK416 has regular takedown and pivot pins - no special tool needed.
The HK416A5 has an ambi lower.
The MR556 (MR223) has all of the civilian features; heavy barrel (heavier than the HK416N/M27 profile), takedown and pivot pins requiring a tool, receiver extension tab and bolt carrier with cutout for the tab etc.
The HK416 is not comparable to the civilian product.
You number for the 416 seems low.
However, when H&K was trying to sell the US government the XM8, they were saying that per unit cost (with accessories) would be less than what the M4 cost, which I believe was something like $980 (under $1000 in any case).
$1500 US seems on par with what the Norwegian gov pays for the rifle pluss accessories (sling, vert grip, flip-up rear sight, 7 mags, cleaning kit). Optic not included.
Arctic1: All well and good. HK will gladly make peculiar and specific rifles to equip your military.
In fact, you are buttressing everything I was saying. HK made a concession with the competition model but if you want a modern 416 style rifle, you will have to reprofile the barrel and do some modding and aftermarket part acquisition.
My thesis was that people wanting a "416" barrel were a bit off as they can and do make lighter CL 416 barrels without a grenade notch.
Honestly the M27 is probably the better off the rack rifle they make next to the 10.3.
In Europe/Canada you can get a factory commercial 14.5 barrel but not the US. Not even, to my knowledge, with stamp paperwork. And reprofiling/cutting the barrel voids warranty.
However if you are a commercial consumer then you're getting the heavy barrel MR556 with the proprietary push-pin takedown.
I know HK has their hands tied but I was referring to the commercial HK mr556, not the 416. The 416 game is going strong. The 556 game has a lot of untapped potential.
If the price weren't too crazy I just want an off the shelf 556 with midweight barrel, normal takedown pins, full Geissele rail and call it good.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-24-15, 16:39
Game over for the G36
http://www.dw.de/german-defense-minister-says-no-future-for-g36-rifles-in-bundeswehr/a-18399209
Game over for the G36
http://www.dw.de/german-defense-minister-says-no-future-for-g36-rifles-in-bundeswehr/a-18399209
Hmm. Wonder how soon the SF troops will receive their "immediate" replacements. And does anybody else think that all this did was get HK more contracts for whatever the Bundeswher replaces the G36 with?
MountainRaven
04-24-15, 21:55
Hmm. Wonder how soon the SF troops will receive their "immediate" replacements. And does anybody else think that all this did was get HK more contracts for whatever the Bundeswher replaces the G36 with?
Depends on how angry the German government is with H&K.
If they blame H&K for the issues in the first place, they might not be ready to give them more contracts. Might be somebody like Rheinmetall or SiG-Sauer that gets the contract to improve or replace the G36 (although I don't know if Rheinmetall even makes the MG3 or any small arms any more).
call_me_ski
04-25-15, 03:49
Depends on how angry the German government is with H&K.
If they blame H&K for the issues in the first place, they might not be ready to give them more contracts. Might be somebody like Rheinmetall or SiG-Sauer that gets the contract to improve or replace the G36 (although I don't know if Rheinmetall even makes the MG3 or any small arms any more).
32960
One of these days I will figure out how to post a picture in a thread and not completely **** it up
Game over for the G36
http://www.dw.de/german-defense-minister-says-no-future-for-g36-rifles-in-bundeswehr/a-18399209
The accuracy fell to 30 percent when the temperature was 86F ?? Surely that must be a typo?
Depends on how angry the German government is with H&K.
If they blame H&K for the issues in the first place, they might not be ready to give them more contracts. Might be somebody like Rheinmetall or SiG-Sauer that gets the contract to improve or replace the G36 (although I don't know if Rheinmetall even makes the MG3 or any small arms any more).
It's not quite that straight forward.
Germany, and all other countries in the EEC (European Economic Community), need to abide by the laws and regulations in place for public procurement (EU Directive 2004/18/EU).
If H&K has supplied weapons that do not comply with the specification or is not up to the quality that the contract requires, this can be grounds for financial penalties (day penalty) or, in the extreme cases, the German gov (military) can void the entire contract.
They cannot keep H&K from entering into another contract or competing for a new contract, unless there has been some form of unethical or criminal conduct. A supplier can also be rejected if there are circumstances that indicate that the supplier is less than reliable (financial standing, previous bankruptcies etc).
What I really don't understand in all of this, is if the issue has been known for a long time, why haven't any sanctions been implemented towards HK? Is it HK's fault? Did they supply a weapon that did indeed meet all the criteria of the specification? Did they address the issue with the German mil, and offer solutions to fix the issue?
Serious Account
04-25-15, 13:05
I wonder if there are some foul play involved and that the problem have been completely over-exaggerated...
I mean, the G36 is being use by 40+ countries, including Saudi Arabia - and it can get REAL hot there - so it's quiet odd that we haven't hear any complaints from other users outside of Germany...
My theory is that they ****ed up on the Germany contract and then figured it out in the later contracts that blanketed the world that " ohh...we used the wrong materials"...
I have played with many g36's in my time in the sand box area and none of it had issues or had accuracy problems.
MountainRaven
04-25-15, 15:15
32960
One of these days I will figure out how to post a picture in a thread and not completely **** it up
It would be SiG-Sauer of Germany, not SiG-Sauer of Exeter, NH: The guys who make the SG550/551/553, not the 556xi.
Although SiG/DE is in trouble with the German government for having sold guns via SiG/NH to countries that the German government doesn't want guns sold to.
It's not quite that straight forward.
Germany, and all other countries in the EEC (European Economic Community), need to abide by the laws and regulations in place for public procurement (EU Directive 2004/18/EU).
If H&K has supplied weapons that do not comply with the specification or is not up to the quality that the contract requires, this can be grounds for financial penalties (day penalty) or, in the extreme cases, the German gov (military) can void the entire contract.
They cannot keep H&K from entering into another contract or competing for a new contract, unless there has been some form of unethical or criminal conduct. A supplier can also be rejected if there are circumstances that indicate that the supplier is less than reliable (financial standing, previous bankruptcies etc).
What I really don't understand in all of this, is if the issue has been known for a long time, why haven't any sanctions been implemented towards HK? Is it HK's fault? Did they supply a weapon that did indeed meet all the criteria of the specification? Did they address the issue with the German mil, and offer solutions to fix the issue?
My understanding is that H&K offered the German government a zero cost G36 improvement program and the German government declined the offer.
I wonder if there are some foul play involved and that the problem have been completely over-exaggerated...
I mean, the G36 is being use by 40+ countries, including Saudi Arabia - and it can get REAL hot there - so it's quiet odd that we haven't hear any complaints from other users outside of Germany...
You mean like how people complain that the M4 fails dust tests and fails in rapid order when used as a light machine gun?
Nah, couldn't be.
:jester:
I can't wait for them to start popping suppressed 10.4 HK 416s and 14.5 HK 416s in their hands and people to start screaming how "too well armed" the German military is.
It would totally make my day.
call_me_ski
04-25-15, 21:01
It would be SiG-Sauer of Germany, not SiG-Sauer of Exeter, NH: The guys who make the SG550/551/553, not the 556xi.
Although SiG/DE is in trouble with the German government for having sold guns via SiG/NH to countries that the German government doesn't want guns sold to.
Sig-sauer Germany never made any 550 series guns. SIG Switzerland did. They have long since changed their name to SAN(Swiss arms). My understanding is that they have very limited production capacity remaining and have <20 employees. they are not on amazing financial footing either. The 550 series rifles are amazing guns and some of my favorites. You cannot find a higher quality standard issued rifle but I fear that their time has passed as far as winning any major contracts. The recent increase of the Swiss franc against the euro isn't helping as they were already expensive and they wouldn't be made in the EU which might be a problem. The Sig sauer 556 series should have been aborted in any of its forms. It is a telling example between the priorities of SIG differing companies.
My understanding is that German production for Sig Sauer is dead. All of their production has moved to the US. One of the raids on Sig sauer DE was the result of a sale to the US state department. Complete madness. Understandable that they moved, but it is a shame because the German guns didn't see the decline in quality that the American guns have.
Serious Account
04-26-15, 01:51
Although most of us don't have the privilege of owning a real deal G36 to test it out.. There are a good deal of people out there who own an SL8. Can someone here who own an SL8 test it out for us? Fire several magazine in rapid semi auto and then test to see if there's POI shift?
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-26-15, 16:47
Probably wouldn't be. Don't those things have thick barrels?
If, as German govt claims, problem is whole system, not barrel profile, then SL8 should see POI shift as well, despite barrel profile.
After reading the press reports there doesn't seem to be too much question that there is a problem. Especially, when HK admits it by saying that the rifle was never designed for "suspended fire" (I think the translation was wrong and it should be sustained fire). The HK Executive used a lame analogy. Something like: It's like when you are a bachelor and you buy a two seat car which is fine, but then you get married and have a family so you complain that the vehicle is not large enough (or something to that effect). Lame.
History: I guess 3 paratroopers were killed in a firefight in Astan because their G36 rifles overheated. So the Government looked into it and found out that the Military thoughtlessly issued the paratroopers weak rifles. So they blamed HK instead of themselves What a surprise.
Press says the Germans are going with 416s and 417s.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-27-15, 16:17
Initial testing over at TFB isn't showing anything. Although it is a 50 yard test it seems odd that it would actually improve if the gun is basically made of candle wax like the media and detractors contend.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/27/test-g36s-alleged-accuracy-problems/
Charlie Don't Surf
04-27-15, 17:01
Initial testing over at TFB isn't showing anything. Although it is a 50 yard test it seems odd that it would actually improve if the gun is basically made of candle wax like the media and detractors contend.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/27/test-g36s-alleged-accuracy-problems/
As speculated in the comments there, if there is any truth to the inaccuracy claims it is most likely due to the "doping" of the polymer to a weaker and cheaper blend. Not all G36s would have been affected.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
hotrodder636
04-27-15, 22:59
I don't have an issue with POI shift from my SL8. I have shot 50 rounds from 2-20 rds and a 10 rd magazine in rapid succession with no issues with POA/POI. In fact I have not had a single malfunction since owning the gun, granted with only a few thousand rounds from it.
It is a pretty heavy profile barrel.
When I get a chance, if I remember, I will take it out and shoot some groups and post.
Although most of us don't have the privilege of owning a real deal G36 to test it out.. There are a good deal of people out there who own an SL8. Can someone here who own an SL8 test it out for us? Fire several magazine in rapid semi auto and then test to see if there's POI shift?
Saw the test on another thread. Not a perfect comparison, but it doesn't display the massive POI shift reported in even minor ways. Interesting.
Saw the test on another thread. Not a perfect comparison, but it doesn't display the massive POI shift reported in even minor ways. Interesting.
Unless the range is duplicated, as I don't see it as a fair test. The difference could be concealed at 50 yards, but exacerbated at 100+. Varying climate and ammo are also confounding factors. Statistically, a larger N would also be needed.
No mistake, i'm not hating on the rifle, just going for proper methods.
I don't have an issue with POI shift from my SL8. I have shot 50 rounds from 2-20 rds and a 10 rd magazine in rapid succession with no issues with POA/POI. In fact I have not had a single malfunction since owning the gun, granted with only a few thousand rounds from it.
It is a pretty heavy profile barrel.
When I get a chance, if I remember, I will take it out and shoot some groups and post.
The TFB article says the accuracy problems occur in as little as 4 mags on full auto. So at the minimum, you shouldn't expect to see a problem until you've fired 120 rds full auto or probably 130 rds on quick semi auto.
50 rds isn't even half way to the minimum failure point.
hotrodder636
04-28-15, 09:54
I did not read the article, only the posts in the thread. Lucky for me I don't shoot my SL-8 full auto. :)
If I have some ammo to waste, I may try a 150ish round test. Anyone want to donate some 5.56 to the cause, LOL?
The TFB article says the accuracy problems occur in as little as 4 mags on full auto. So at the minimum, you shouldn't expect to see a problem until you've fired 120 rds full auto or probably 130 rds on quick semi auto.
50 rds isn't even half way to the minimum failure point.
And very supportive to "shut down HK" project of some extremely lefty / green politicians.
They even planned to build concrete "sarcophagus" over HK plantm by dumping concrete from helicopters. Seriously. They even had crowd-funding campaign on that:
https://youtu.be/tvPoncNYF5g
Wouldn't it just be easier to raze it? Not that I want to, I like HK, just asking a question.
Wouldn't it just be easier to raze it? Not that I want to, I like HK, just asking a question.
Progressive lefty activists. They assumed HK would repel any ground assault, but did not think that G28, HK121 and GMG would work fine as improvised AAA ;)
Progressive lefty activists. They assumed HK would repel any ground assault, but did not think that G28, HK121 and GMG would work fine as improvised AAA ;)
Good point. :)
Rubio Negro
05-14-15, 10:25
Back in the news... (http://mobile.reuters.com/article/article/idUSKBN0NX1DM20150512?irpc=932)
MorphCross
05-14-15, 12:11
Back in the news... (http://mobile.reuters.com/article/article/idUSKBN0NX1DM20150512?irpc=932)
Taken from the article and kept in context.
The first suggestions that the gun might be faulty date back to April 2010, when 32 Bundeswehr paratroopers were ambushed by Taliban fighters in northern Afghanistan. Three German soldiers were killed in a nine-hour firefight. The G36 was said to have overheated, forcing the Germans to retreat.
For years no action was taken. Then defense minister von der Leyen commissioned a new study of the weapon. It was completed last month and the results were damning.
"In demanding battle situations, precise engagement of the enemy is not reliable," the confidential report, seen by Reuters, reads.
In Oberndorf, the report was greeted with fury and incredulity.
Why, Heckler and Koch asks, does Germany suddenly have a problem with a weapon its military has used for nearly 20 years? Why haven't other G36 countries complained? And why are politicians rather than troops who use the rifle criticizing it?
"It looks to me like von der Leyen has jumped at the chance to send a tough message to a company that cannot fight back because it's relatively small and has an image problem," said Thomas Wiegold, a Berlin journalist who blogs on defense issues.
A German officer with experience in Afghanistan, who spoke to Reuters on condition of anonymity, said: "Any weapon gets hot if you shoot it long enough. The G36 is not a machine gun and it's not made to be one."
Bolded for truth.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.