View Full Version : Bullet Selection, or...
Hi all,
I bought a bolt gun and I'm dabbling in "precision" shooting. Thanks to the guys on this forum for the good advice.
The gun is a new Savage 10 FCP-SR. It's .308, 20" barrel, 1:10 twist, Accu-Stock, threaded muzzle, etc. That's a DPMS Miculek brake, and a 2-8x32 Nikon Monarch, which I'm using 'til my new 4-16x50 Nikon Monarch arrives.
I've been testing factory ammo, round-robin style (instead of strings of one ammo), so I'm sure the differences aren't me becoming flinchy, or the wind changing, or the barrel heating up. I'm going to work up some reloads in the next six months or so...
Just about everything I'm shooting is 1" or so at 100yds, so much so that I'm having a hard time parsing 3/4" groups vs. 1-1/8" groups.
At 200yds FGMM, both 168s and 175s is consistently shooting 2-3" groups, with which I'm very satisfied (see photo). BTW, surplus Lithuanian "GGG" 7.62 is shooting about as well as FGMM.
However, at 200yds Lapau 167 Scenars are consistently shooting 1-1/2" groups or better (see photo), which blows my mind, in a good way. (OK, I'm past dabbling; I'm hooked.)
I don't know if it matters, but the Lapua ammo also grouped 2-3" higher than either of the FGMM loads — exact same gun, same shooter, same conditions — which seems like a good thing.
So, obviously I'm buying more Lapua ammo, even at $1.40/round, because it's sooo much better than FGMM, and FGMM is already $1.25/round. (Again, reloading is coming soon... )
My question is about bullet selection for reloading...
I already have 1,000 each of Nosler's "Custom Competition" in 155gr and 168gr, but now I'm thinking I should buy some Scenar bullets for when I start reloading. I bought the Noslers because (1) they seem to have a reputation here as being comparable to SMKs, and (2) Brownells sells them for 22¢ each, which is barely more than M80 bullets, so I can fire them through my M14-type if they don't work out well in the Savage.
I can buy Scenars for 40-41¢ each, which is pretty steep, but not crazy compared to SMKs (which I see for 35¢ each), and I wouldn't mind paying another 20¢/projectile if I can reproduce the performance of Lapua's loaded ammo. (OK, this is becoming a full-blown obsession.)
Given the "gold standard" status of FGMMs, is there any chance that I can load SMKs or Nosler CCs that are going to shoot as well as Scenars in this gun? Or can I beat FGMM with the Nosler CCs if I play with seating depths and powder charges?
Please advise...
Marlin 795
04-14-15, 05:43
The 168s and 175 FGMM should be easily holding sub-MOA out of your gun.
I am loading 175gr Nosler Customs over 43gr Varget or 4064 and have no issues at 800-1000 when I'm not fighting the wind.
You should have no issues building an equivalent or superior load to FGMM when you minimize the jump to the lands, minimize runout, and do comprehensive case prep.
At the ranges you're talking about, I think the difference would be negligible between the Lapua Scenars and a well executed handload with Noslers.
Sorted brass by weight, sorted projectiles by weight, consistent brass, flash hole uniformed and deburred, clean primer pockets, uniform/proper trim/chamfer/deburr, good powder, consistent charge weight, consistent neck tension, minimal runout--will pretty much smoke any factory ammo when seated to the lands.
The 168s and 175 FGMM should be easily holding sub-MOA out of your gun.
Right, but they don't. The Lapua ammo consistently cuts the groups size in half, vs. FGMM.
At the ranges you're talking about, I think the difference would be negligible between the Lapua Scenars and a well executed handload with Noslers.
I should've mentioned that my local range is only 300yds, and I'm rarely/never going to shoot further. This probably makes all the fuss about ballistic coefficients moot...
Sorted brass by weight, sorted projectiles by weight, consistent brass, flash hole uniformed and deburred, clean primer pockets, uniform/proper trim/chamfer/deburr, good powder, consistent charge weight, consistent neck tension, minimal runout--will pretty much smoke any factory ammo when seated to the lands.
OK, I'm not obsessed enough to do all that, but I can definitely sort and trim my brass, and I can play with powder charges and seating depths...
Right, but they don't. The Lapua ammo consistently cuts the groups size in half, vs. FGMM.
Are you comparing factory loads, or handloads with the two different bullets?
The thing about hand loads is you can vary the charge weight and seating depth to find the most accurate load for your particular rifle.
Oh, and test in strings, you can't really get good information doing every other bullet.
Are you comparing factory loads, or handloads with the two different bullets?
Factory ammo. I'm going to start reloading soon, and I'm trying to figure out what bullet(s) I want to use...
The thing about hand loads is you can vary the charge weight and seating depth to find the most accurate load for your particular rifle.
Yes, but AFAIK, I need to pick a bullet, first. My basic question is: Given that FGMM is a good use of SMKs, is it possible that my rifle/barrel just don't like SMKs? Given that my rifle is shooting lights out with Lapua Scenars as factory ammo, should I just start with Scenars when I start reloading?
Oh, and test in strings, you can't really get good information doing every other bullet.
Please explain this... I'm not arguing, I'm trying to make sure I'm doing this right.
I learned that the best way to test different loads was to fire them "round-robin," so load one round of Ammo A, and fire it at Target A. Then load one round of Ammo B, and fire it at Target B. Continue four more times for two five-shot groups.
This way the gun is consistent (barrel heat, fouling), conditions are consistent, I'm (relatively) consistent, and the ammo is the only variable.
If I were to fire five-shot "strings," then with every string the barrel is hotter or colder or more or less fouled, or I'm more or less flinchy, or the conditions have (slightly) changed, and it wouldn't be clear that the ammo alone is the issue.
Seating depth with Nosler CCs or SMKs is a waste of time. I don't know about the Scenars, however.
Powder charge is where you'll get the round to sing. And as far as Noslers equaling SMKs... I find that to be true with the 77 gr in 223. But that's all I've really dug into and observed at very long range. The Nos 69 gr didn't match up to the SMK as far as I could tell.... and the 168s in 308 were squirrelly at 1000.
Marlin 795
04-14-15, 18:05
Seating depth with Nosler CCs or SMKs is a waste of time. I don't know about the Scenars, however.
What makes you say that?
For me, I've found that the "accuracy nodes" are pretty junk-science-y. For me, consistent charges, consistent neck tension and minimizing bullet runout resulted in the best accuracy.
Seating depth with Nosler CCs or SMKs is a waste of time. I don't know about the Scenars, however.
Good to know...
Powder charge is where you'll get the round to sing. And as far as Noslers equaling SMKs... I find that to be true with the 77 gr in 223. But that's all I've really dug into and observed at very long range. The Nos 69 gr didn't match up to the SMK as far as I could tell.... and the 168s in 308 were squirrelly at 1000.
I think this was the recommendation that I was thinking of... I'm not worried about these past 300yds, and I'm not worried about what they do when they go transsonic... They'll be in the berm by then.
Factory ammo. I'm going to start reloading soon, and I'm trying to figure out what bullet(s) I want to use...
Yes, but AFAIK, I need to pick a bullet, first. My basic question is: Given that FGMM is a good use of SMKs, is it possible that my rifle/barrel just don't like SMKs? Given that my rifle is shooting lights out with Lapua Scenars as factory ammo, should I just start with Scenars when I start reloading?
Please explain this... I'm not arguing, I'm trying to make sure I'm doing this right.
I learned that the best way to test different loads was to fire them "round-robin," so load one round of Ammo A, and fire it at Target A. Then load one round of Ammo B, and fire it at Target B. Continue four more times for two five-shot groups.
This way the gun is consistent (barrel heat, fouling), conditions are consistent, I'm (relatively) consistent, and the ammo is the only variable.
If I were to fire five-shot "strings," then with every string the barrel is hotter or colder or more or less fouled, or I'm more or less flinchy, or the conditions have (slightly) changed, and it wouldn't be clear that the ammo alone is the issue.
It is difficult to judge possible bullet performance from handloads on factory loadings.
Buy a few of each, make a few test loads with variations in charge and see what shoots the tightest groups. Work the load until you have the tightest group, then vary the seating depth (if possible) and see is that improves things, accuracy wise.
I have always just shot one or warm-up rounds, shot a 5 or 10 round string at one target, punched the bore, then repeated the procedure with a second target. Makes things easier and keeps my shooting more consistent.
Unless you are a benchrest shooter that likes to punch the bore after every shot, your ultimate group size will be based on a dirty bore.
I have always just shot one or warm-up rounds, shot a 5 or 10 round string at one target, punched the bore, then repeated the procedure with a second target. Makes things easier and keeps my shooting more consistent.
Unless you are a benchrest shooter that likes to punch the bore after every shot, your ultimate group size will be based on a dirty bore.
What I'm reading says to clean the bore only after firing several hundred rounds — when accuracy noticeably falls off.
AFAIK, it takes 10-20 or more rounds to "foul" the barrel again, so cleaning it every 5-10 rounds means that you're constantly transitioning from a clean to a fouled barrel, and whatever results you're getting are as much due to the relative fouling of the barrel as they are due to differences in the ammo...
So, I'll keep shooting "round-robin."
What makes you say that?
For me, I've found that the "accuracy nodes" are pretty junk-science-y. For me, consistent charges, consistent neck tension and minimizing bullet runout resulted in the best accuracy.
Trial and Error... as well as reading what others have found. See... We shoot a lot of Rem 700 factory guns. And they have massive leade. We jump a lot of SMKs and Nos CCs a long way to the lands, and they aren't bothered at all.
Bullet runout hasn't proved to be a big deal either (with tangent ogive bullets). I mean... I try to minimize it, of course. But when I first got started loading precision stuff, we took a batch of some of my wildest run out rounds and shot them. They were still sub moa. I was expecting really poor grouping, but they actually were fine.
Neck tension too... When I've loaded factory fresh Lapua, the neck tension is all over the place. Some bullets seat quite hard, while some seem to fall into place. But the ammo still shoots good. Still... I do go to the trouble of annealing bolt gun brass EVERY loading to minimize neck tension variances. But I've not found it to be hugely critical.
For me, I've found that the "accuracy nodes" are pretty junk-science-y.
So you're not finding that one powder charge is more accurate than another?
Still... I do go to the trouble of annealing bolt gun brass EVERY loading to minimize neck tension variances. But I've not found it to be hugely critical.
Crap, I wasn't planning to anneal my brass... A lot of it has been annealed (boxer-primed milsurp), but I didn't plan on doing it every loading.
Is there some trick to annealing that doesn't take all day or cost a fortune?
Is there some trick to annealing that doesn't take all day or cost a fortune?
There are places that will do it for you...
There are places that will do it for you...
No offense intended, but eff that... The whole point of reloading is that I want to do it myself.
Sending out my brass to have it annealed sounds like a PITA, and I can't imagine it's cheap.
You can train yourself. I hand anneal with a cheap old Ace hardware torch and tank. I kind of learned by doing it on some practice brass in low light. If you get the brass glowing red, that's too hot and likely ruins the brass.
I simply hold my 308 or 300WM brass with a nomex flight glove and depending on the thickness of the necks give it from 5 to 7 Mississippi while turning rolling the brass with my thumb and finger. After messing with the low light trial and error, I can do it in daylight without scortching the brass. I use standard times for each brass type, and adjust on the fly for how much annealing iris I'm seeing. You don't want too much.... but you should be able to see some signs that the neck/shoulder has been heated.
You can train yourself. I hand anneal with a cheap old Ace hardware torch and tank. I kind of learned by doing it on some practice brass in low light. If you get the brass glowing red, that's too hot and likely ruins the brass.
I simply hold my 308 or 300WM brass with a nomex flight glove and depending on the thickness of the necks give it from 5 to 7 Mississippi while turning rolling the brass with my thumb and finger. After messing with the low light trial and error, I can do it in daylight without scortching the brass. I use standard times for each brass type, and adjust on the fly for how much annealing iris I'm seeing. You don't want too much.... but you should be able to see some signs that the neck/shoulder has been heated.
I want to try annealing some of my 223 Lapua brass. The neck tension is all over the place from sizing it 7-8 times. Other than that, it all appears to be in good shape.
I've seen the Rube Goldberg annealing machines, but I'm nowhere near obsessed enough (yet) to do that...
Bimmer all the brass you have is annealed. Factory ammo is polished so you dont see the annealing. Military brass is not polished so it can be visually identified as being annealed.
Sierra matchkings, and nosler CC's are not sensitive to jump. I have never loaded any lapua scenars, but it is very rare for a barrel to not like matchkings. As long as you dont have excessive run out it wont be a problem. If your only shooting out to 300 yard you might look into some flat base bullets. They can be a little harder to seat the bullet, but you can get a die to open the neck to make seating the bullet easier. A lot of guys shooting BR competitively at 300 yard and under use flat base bullets. Boat tail bullets dont settle into flight as fast as flat base bullets do.
Accuracy nodes are definitely not junk science. Theres a reason why every method to find a load focuses on powder charge, and then you fine tune the load. The way your shooting your factory loads is the ocw method. Optimal charge weight method is a way to find a good load for your rifle if you dont have acces to a range of at least 300 yard to do a ladder test. When you use the ocw method your not looking for group size, your looking for impact location. Google Dan Newberry's ocw, and you will get all the info you need on what your looking for when you use the ocw method. Since you have been firing factory loads you should try and just shoot some 5-10 shot groups. Just go slow, and let the barrel cool in between strings. That should keep things consistent.
You can clean between string, just dont strip the copper. Just use a solvent for carbon fouling. If you do clean the copper fire some fouling shots before you shoot for groups. Once you start reloading, the ocw method is great. Since you have access to a 300 yard range you could use the ladder method as well. Look them up and see which will be more beneficial to you. 300 yards is generally the shortest distance recommended for a ladder test. When you start reloading buy a few boxes of different bullets, and find out what your barrel likes.
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