View Full Version : Which degree?
Dist. Expert 26
04-16-15, 17:39
I'm finishing up my Associate's of Science degree soon, and I plan on furthering my education with an engineering degree of some sort. My question (for those who work in the industry) is what specific field I should focus on? The university I plan on going to offers mechanical engineering, engineering technology, and applied systems technology, among others.
My dream job would be working for a company like Surgeon or GA precision, so any advice would be welcomed.
My BSME has been very good to me. I can work in almost any industry.
Whether GA precision or Surgeon needs an ME as full time employee is something I don't know.
Having solid, broad technical skills will serve you well. Of the degree programs you've mentioned, ME pays the best.
Depending on the makeup of the ME program where you go, you may get the opportunity to focus heavily with electives on shop type interests. Machining is one example, but I strongly suspect that most of the firearms industry consists more of skilled tradesmen than engineers. I work in a factory, but not in firearms, and that is nothing but an scientific wild ass guess. I'm an EE major (almost finished), but I will tell you that most of the ME's where I work don't really engineer things, they usually end up in process engineer type positions. Think of that as people who troubleshoot problems with complex systems more than people who design or work on brand new things.
However, in the aerospace industry at least, 3D printing is the way of the future. An strong area of concentration there may take you places. Again, hard to say anything is a sure bet, but best of luck no matter which way you go.
Digital_Damage
06-01-15, 08:17
I'm finishing up my Associate's of Science degree soon, and I plan on furthering my education with an engineering degree of some sort. My question (for those who work in the industry) is what specific field I should focus on? The university I plan on going to offers mechanical engineering, engineering technology, and applied systems technology, among others.
My dream job would be working for a company like Surgeon or GA precision, so any advice would be welcomed.
My advice would not tailor your educational choice on getting a job in "x" industry with "x" company. Need to focus on what you are inclined at and enjoy from a broad subject.
You would not get a law degree with the goal to become a litigator for the NRA, you would get a law degree because you enjoy the procedural application of laws.
When we hire, we ignore the people that walk through the door and say "I love your company, this would be my dream job". We want the people that say "I love engineering, this position would give me the best opportunity to do what I love."
mkmckinley
06-02-15, 18:38
I don't have any specific advice for ME or working in the firearms industry but I've been trying to apply the degree I earned a few years ago. What I wanted to add is that WHERE your degree is from and your GPA is extremely important especially for classes that pertain to the field you're trying to enter. Don't be like I was and blow off art history, everything matters when you're competing!
Dist. Expert 26
06-14-15, 10:38
I appreciate the advice everyone. I know that getting a particular job, especially in the firearms industry, is a long shot (no pun intended) but I just want to put myself in the best possible position if the possibilty exists.
Again, thanks.
SilverBullet432
06-14-15, 11:47
I got my AAS in December. Just landed a sweet career for an oil company. Automation tech :D
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-14-15, 13:44
My advice would not tailor your educational choice on getting a job in "x" industry with "x" company. Need to focus on what you are inclined at and enjoy from a broad subject.
You would not get a law degree with the goal to become a litigator for the NRA, you would get a law degree because you enjoy the procedural application of laws.
When we hire, we ignore the people that walk through the door and say "I love your company, this would be my dream job". We want the people that say "I love engineering, this position would give me the best opportunity to do what I love."
I agree. A technical degree is an almost undeniable certification that you are not an idiot. That is its true value in an economy where things change quickly. Yes, you can go out and get and stay in a engineering job, or I think it is more fun leverage that knowledge to gain more interesting positions in management and shaping companies and industries.
I don't know what it's like in engineering, but with the other sciences like bio, chem and physics, unless you stop at a BS and go onto a JD or MBA, I think you need at least a masters and preferably a PhD.
SilverBullet432
06-14-15, 13:49
Whats the point of a PHD if you dont plan to teach ?
Whiskey_Bravo
06-14-15, 16:12
Whats the point of a PHD if you dont plan to teach ?
A PhD is not just useful for teaching. My wife has a PhD in statistics and has never taught. She is a director at a health care system where many of the people she works with have PhDs.
The field of Mechanical Engineering is as wide as you can imagine it. As an Architect I deal with Mechanical Engineers who design HVAC systems every day. But the same guys do plumbing and process engineering as well. I once had an intern who was finishing his BSME degree. He was working on HVAC design for us. Once he graduated he went to work for a company designing heavy duty clutch systems. As you can see, two totally different worlds.
It's not the highest paid engineering careers today, that would be Petrolium and Chemical engineering, but it's by far the most versatile.
My advice is to factor in what you love with what you want. Experience trumps degree. I'd go for ME, but make sure you get experience. I'm a ChemE and had to take an internship AFTER graduating to secure a job, but it's been working great ever since. Employers want proof of skills, and personality/work ethic go a long ways.
You may have to take a job as a stepping stone to get where you want. Best of luck!
Depends what you're good at.
That being said, an ex girlfriend of mine got her BS and MS in Civil Engineering from UCLA, and is currently working for an aerospace manufacturer. I think some of those degrees are more about the knowledge and applying it, versus the actual title. Math is math is math ...
SilverBullet432
06-14-15, 19:16
I plan to one day go for petroleum engineering :) one day. My buddy is halfway done with his BSME then hes going for the masters.
I don't have any specific advice for ME or working in the firearms industry but I've been trying to apply the degree I earned a few years ago. What I wanted to add is that WHERE your degree is from and your GPA is extremely important especially for classes that pertain to the field you're trying to enter. Don't be like I was and blow off art history, everything matters when you're competing!
Interesting. Frome people I talk to, and in my experience, where you went and GPA was far under demonstrating skill in your field, and demonstrating people, communication, and management skills, but my experience is quite limited.
Interesting. Frome people I talk to, and in my experience, where you went and GPA was far under demonstrating skill in your field, and demonstrating people, communication, and management skills, but my experience is quite limited.
After I greduated and was looking for a job no one ever asked what my GPA was. Now that I have my license it doesn't matter if it was a 2.5 of 4.0.
If you are going for engineering once you get your FE and PE no one will care. I have interviewed engineers and never once have I asked what their college GPAs were.
Just my two cents tho.
militarymoron
06-14-15, 19:59
After I greduated and was looking for a job no one ever asked what my GPA was.
That may because it was already on your resume? I screen resumes and interview candidates for engineering positions when we have openings, and we do pay attention to where they went to school and their GPAs for entry level positions, besides all the other stuff. the bottom line is, i pretty much look at everything. i've never asked a candidate what his/her GPA was because i already had that information.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-14-15, 20:20
Whats the point of a PHD if you dont plan to teach ?
A PhD is not just useful for teaching. My wife has a PhD in statistics and has never taught. She is a director at a health care system where many of the people she works with have PhDs.
In a technical business, it isn't that you can't get ahead with a BS, it just gets harder. Sure you can get ahead with a BS, but in a lot of companies, that's lab bench stuff- a job. A BS and an MBA gets you into Sales and Marketing management. A JD gets you into a subset of corp law or intellectual property. As far as I know a engineering degree and patent lawyer is about as close as you can come to a money printing press- but that ain't easy to do. You want to rise up in a technical (bio, specialty-chem, etc.) you need at least an MS, and a PhD lowers barriers to entry.
I don't know if it is the same with engineering. I know it is in medicine- the more specialized you become, the better the pay. I'd say to someone just starting out a career, get as educated as you can stand or afford- more and more white collar jobs are going away- plus a the higher you get in an org the easier it is to get into something else- since your real skill then is management, not technology.
I come at it from the specialty chemical side, not the engineering so YMMV.
Whiskey_Bravo
06-14-15, 20:23
plus a the higher you get in an org the easier it is to get into something else- since your real skill then is management, not technology.
.
This is very true.
SilverBullet432
06-14-15, 21:00
Interesting. Frome people I talk to, and in my experience, where you went and GPA was far under demonstrating skill in your field, and demonstrating people, communication, and management skills, but my experience is quite limited.
They never asked me about my GPA. I honestly think they dont care either. As long as I can deal with the issues, theyll be happy.
alvincullumyork
06-14-15, 21:35
I graduated from Oregon State University a little over a year ago with a BS in construction engineering management. It's like civil engineerings dumber little brother. I had two companies ask about my GPA, which wasn't great, 3.14, but I also interviewed with more than 20 companies for internships and jobs. CEM fit me but I was always jealous of my ME friends. One got his BS in civil and then masters in ME and turned down a job with Space x to work for Mercedes. He is over in Germany right now.
If you are more of a people person and don't want to be stuck behind a desk all day CEM is great. If you are more technically inclined and want to actually engineer something the real engineering degrees would probably be better. My class of 60 or so all had jobs before graduation with an average salary of right around 57,500. Petro, EE, ME, Nucks, and CE all have higher starting salaries but can also be more competitive and slower to move up the ladder.
What school are you looking at? Most schools have a better rep for specific majors.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
ForTehNguyen
06-14-15, 22:25
Bachelor of Science Electrical Engineering
University of Houston
I have a BA in music business, working on my masters in aerospace engineering with the goal of working at JPL as they are close by and do the kind of work that I want to do, exploring space and expanding human knowledge. I want to be a part of creating manned colonies on the moon or Mars, or something as equally history shaping.
I'm a Chemical Engineer (with an MBA), spent 10+ years working manufacturing plants as a process engineer and quality manager before going to grad school (I'm also a Six Sigma Black Belt and Certified Lean Practitioner). For the past 5+ years, I've been a division-level leader in a Fortune 500 Chemical company. I even spent 1+ years working as Black Belt / Continuous Improvement Engineer for a large US Bank - don't ask, it was a terrible experience other than REALLY getting very good at continuous improvement activities on transactional operations (which actually helped me tremendously later in life).
My point - over my 18 years, I've worked with chemical, electrical, mechanical and just a few industrial engineers - all have had their places in manufacturing plants, tech development labs and even in sales (depending on the product, but most of the engineers in sales (not all sales people are engineers) have been chemical since I've worked the plastics or chemical industry nearly my entire career).
So, as many have said in this thread, it all depends on what your long-term industry objective is. But as an engineer, you'll have plenty of options.
black22rifle
06-15-15, 07:51
I'm currently pursuing a BOS in EET. Does anyone have experience with that degree?
Whats the point of a PHD if you dont plan to teach ?
A PhD's primary focus is not teaching, even in universities (with exceptions). It's research. In science, it tends to go like this:
BS in x field = semi qualified to follow orders in a lab.
MS in x field = oversee lab, maybe manage, assist in the tasks you oversee.
PhD in x field = Asks original research questions, designs experiments and hands down the protocol.
Some people with PhD's really like teaching, so they don't persue Research 1 schools or research track positions. Instead, they go to smaller schools or fill positions where teaching is the job.
PhD's are hired in industry for the research.
An R1 professor who has tenure or is on a tenure track will teach 1-2 classes a year, but it is variable.
Companies will also hire PhD's just because they feel the position or department requires that much experience in critical thinking or whatever.
I am a PhD student in biology, the above are my observations. I don't plan on staying in academia.
Undergrad was a B.S. in Bio, unless you plan on going on to further schooling, I would stay away from this degree. It's really a pre grad school, pre med, or work in low paying lab positions for a long time kinda deal.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-17-15, 07:35
A PhD's primary focus is not teaching, even in universities (with exceptions). It's research. In science, it tends to go like this:
BS in x field = semi qualified to follow orders in a lab.
MS in x field = oversee lab, maybe manage, assist in the tasks you oversee.
PhD in x field = Asks original research questions, designs experiments and hands down the protocol.
Some people with PhD's really like teaching, so they don't persue Research 1 schools or research track positions. Instead, they go to smaller schools or fill positions where teaching is the job.
PhD's are hired in industry for the research.
An R1 professor who has tenure or is on a tenure track will teach 1-2 classes a year, but it is variable.
Companies will also hire PhD's just because they feel the position or department requires that much experience in critical thinking or whatever.
I am a PhD student in biology, the above are my observations. I don't plan on staying in academia.
Undergrad was a B.S. in Bio, unless you plan on going on to further schooling, I would stay away from this degree. It's really a pre grad school, pre med, or work in low paying lab positions for a long time kinda deal.
Everyone wants to push STEM education but as Foxxy says, the BS level opportunities, especially for bio, aren't very good- as in career wise and to recoup the investment in college. On the plus side, to be frank, it's hard to be an idiot in a science degree. You can be a complete mess socially, but intelligence wise, its pretty hard to fake p-chem.
The funny thing to me is that BS degrees rarely give you any applicable skills to a real job, it just covers too much. By the time you get your PhD, you've specialized so much that you can rock that technology, but frankly you get very far out of it and a PhD isn't that much more useful than a BS. So choose the PhD concentration well, or else you'll basically have to retrain.
That said, a STEM degree does almost encode you with skills that transfer well. Academic rigor, ability to learn new things, analysis of data (especially messy data), designing experiments and project management.
Crow Hunter
06-17-15, 08:09
I'm finishing up my Associate's of Science degree soon, and I plan on furthering my education with an engineering degree of some sort. My question (for those who work in the industry) is what specific field I should focus on? The university I plan on going to offers mechanical engineering, engineering technology, and applied systems technology, among others.
My dream job would be working for a company like Surgeon or GA precision, so any advice would be welcomed.
Of the options you have get the BSME if you can swing it. It will have more theory and less hands on that the others you have listed but it will open up more doors for you.
The most important thing you can do is to get with a program that has a strong internship network/requirement. That will let you actually get out into different industries and get real experience of what it is to be an engineer. It will also allow you to figure out what you don't want to do.
I graduated in 1997 and I worked in the Automotive industry for ~10 year as a process engineer and engineering manager. I now work in the Fenestration industry as a R&D/Test/Value engineer and I have had opportunities to move into several other industries/job roles in several different areas of the country. I chose to stay where I am currently to be closer to my extended family/in-laws. An engineering degree doesn't mean that you will have to even work as an engineer. You may move into other job functions as others have alluded to. My college roommate is now a Director of Marketing :rolleyes: at a paint company after having worked in Automotive (as a customer to my company at the time) to doing something with pressure cylinders and a couple of other jobs that I can't remember in between.
Personally, when I am doing hiring of engineers right out of college, I look at their experience more than I do their colleges or GPAs assuming they are coming from an accredited school. If you have good experience as an intern at a reputable company/school and can list the projects that you worked on and explain the process of how to arrived at the solutions you created to me in an interview, you will get a higher rating than someone that has a 4.0 GPA from a top school that has no practical experience or applications of their education. Actually, we are interviewing for an entry level R&D position right now to replace me since I am now "King of the Lab". ;)
The primary thing you are going to learn in engineering school is how to solve problems. When I say that, I don't mean solving equations. I mean learning to take something, break it down into its component parts and apply logic/Design of Experiments/problem solving to find an appropriate and cost effective solution. That is what most engineering managers are looking for. Not your ability to solve equations. Anyone can solve equations but not everyone can design solutions.:D
There will be more money in some of the more specialized fields, like petroleum engineering. But the BSME or BSEE will give you a very broad base of opportunities in multiple different industries in lots of different places in the US.
As an aside, to any engineers or engineering students looking at this. My company is currently in the market for an entry level BSME and my wife is always on the lookout for BSEEs (for design) and sometimes BSMEs (process engineers) both entry level and experienced (she is an HR manager at a local plant).
An ME degree is pretty versatile. Had I not been enthralled with aviation like I was I would have probably done ME instead of aerospace. Fact is a lot of places aerospace is just a specialization within the ME department.
An ME degree is pretty versatile. Had I not been enthralled with aviation like I was I would have probably done ME instead of aerospace. Fact is a lot of places aerospace is just a specialization within the ME department.
Very true, that's the case at my school, right now I'm taking most of the ME undergrad classes before taking the upper level Aerospace classes, so that I have that foundation of knowledge. The engineering classes I've taken so far have been much easier for me than the math, although Trig was practically a walk in the park. Calculus is going alright so far, but still to be determined, still have two more Calc classes and Differentials after this class.
But yeah, the Aerospace/Aeronautics Masters is one of 4 choices in the ME department, others being Mechanical Systems Design, Systems Dynamics and Controls, and Thermofluids.
This is what you can expect if you get an ABET accredited BS ME degree.
1. Homework until 3 in the morning every night including weekends during the school year. No life. Job pay will not be proportional to the college time you put in. No spring break because you will be too busy working on end of year school engineering projects.
2. You will make more coming out of college than everyone else. In 10 years all the business major morons you went to school with will be making the same or more money than you, as these people will be transitioning to management positions. You will most likely be stuck in the technical side with no upward mobility.
3. The more competent you are, the less you will advance. You will see morons promoted above you.
4. To get a raise you must change jobs. Expect 2-4% raises if you stay with the company.
5. Another way to get a raise is to move around the country changing jobs. All the high paying jobs are in communist anti gun states.
6. If I had to do it again, I would have been a doctor or a lawyer.
7. Bullshit management and politics that you have no control over, but are held accountable when shit goes south.
8. Get one job and start looking for the next.
9. No company loyalty and constantly dicking you around with your travel expenses, 401k, pension, or other benefits.
10. Boomer generation engineers that have no computer skills and a pension. You will have no pension.
11. Dirtbag factory workers that don't give a shit, but you are held accountable and can't fire them because you are not their manager.
12. Shitbag project team members that you have no control over and can't fire.
13. The suit and tie, banker, doctor, lawyer, country club, "lets go golfing lifestyle" won't be happening.
14. If you are a process improvement or manufacturing engineer, you have to justify your salary with saving the company money. It has all the bullshit of a sales job and none of the commission or glory.
15. Dream jobs like working for your favorite gun, auto, etc company are few and far between.
16. If you get a Six Sigma Black Belt, PE, advanced degree, or CQE, or any other certification, you might as well have become a doctor.
17. Reporting to your boss that never was an engineer and doesn't understand the problems or how long it takes to perform a task.
18. For every 1 engineer that gets promoted into a management job, 10 to 20 engineers don't get promoted. Don't expect to ever make more than $100k unless you live in a shipping container mounted to the side of an oil rig.
19. You will not be around people with money. You will not be making business connections like a banker, stock broker, real estate professional, or salesman will. You will not be on economic development boards, Chamber of Commerce boards, etc that lead to prestige and further business deals. You will be an unknown schmuck working in a factory or industrial site. To get money, you have to be near money. This point is bold for a reason.
20. You will be dealing with managers who cheat and lie to get their way and throw you under the bus. You yourself can't get away with telling any half-truths or bullshit like you could in a sales job.
21. You will be competing with people from china/india for jobs. These people are perfectly happy making $50k a year because they come from a mud hut filled with diarrhea. These people depress your wages. We don't need more STEM people in this country. This is a lie you hear in the media.
22. No motivation to do any extra work. Do an average job and go home everyday at 5 PM and get a 3% raise. Do a stellar job putting in 25% more effort for a 4% raise. Promises of promotions that never happen.
23. You will know how to expertly use Microsoft Excel, CAD, Proficient SPC, Minitab, Matlab, etc and everyone around you doesn't have a clue and you don't get paid for it.
24. Company blackberry/iphone that goes off at all hours.
25. Company hitting you up for "voluntary" charity donations during Christmas time with high pressure tactics.
26. You watch your friends start their own white collar company and their only overhead is computers, desks, pens and paper. You start your own company and have multi million dollar loans on manufacturing equipment and constantly worry how you are going to pay for it all.
27. Company had record profits this year and all the workers get no bonus. Not even a few hundred dollars.
28. Expect a middle class lifestyle with 2000 sq ft house and mediocre automobile. Some have school loans on top of this. No extra money.
29. Company will operate with a skeleton crew. Nobody has any time to finish projects or fix problems.
I'd look into the ME, but I'd start looking for a machine shop that would be willing to hire you on - even if it's sweeping floors at first, then feeding parts, just knowing how to run CNC machining equipment is tremendously valuable, and has done more for me while I'm pursuing my ME than any job I can think of - and I'm making awesome stuff like FAL Tools, .22lr conversion kits, satellite parts, drilling gyroscopes, and even parts for literal fusion reactor test systems.
If you're looking to go ME, just get a BS/BA in something not retarded - Computer Science is a relatively easy one, and universally applicable to real life anyway (I have a BS in CS). It also doesn't look as stupid if you're pursuing a degree like that exclusively through online classes.
FWIW, I'm a 2761 not a grunt, and left after my first enlistment with an AA already in the bank, but I'm going to be able to get P9/11GI Bill to cover my BS, ME (Space Systems Engineering), and 2/3 of my PhD (Systems Engineering) and be able to limp through the last 15 credits as research credits... despite how insanely fortunate that whole deal is, I'm most grateful for having a family friend with a machine shop who needed help cleaning and feeding parts, now I'm working as a machinist to supplement income, and I'm actually going to be able to do my master's thesis on metrology integration and be able to work on that while I'm at the shop making cool stuff anyway.
black22rifle
06-17-15, 20:37
Scottryan you're scaring me.
militarymoron
06-17-15, 20:59
I'm actually going to be able to do my master's thesis on metrology integration
Not to derail the thread, but tell me more about what this thesis is going to be on (i know what metrology is - just wondering what application you're working in).
By the way, a lot of what scottryan says is true - i can relate to a lot of it, but fortunately i have had a more positive experience in my career. it's possible to earn a good income on the technical side - you don't have to go into management. but the top technical positions like senior scientist, chief engineer etc mean you really have to know your stuff and it does take a long time. i believe that technical knowledge/experience is harder to replace than managers. it's the niche i've found that works for me.
the reason i've stayed technical is that i don't like dealing with two things: cost and schedule. while i do have to work to those constraints, i'm not responsible for the bean counting. but, i do keep both in mind of course, and strive to perform efficiently.
i'm not going to make as much as a lawyer or doctor, but i have pretty darn good work-life balance. my job allows me to start at 6am, end at 2:30pm, which leaves me the rest of the afternoon to work out or spend with my kid. i've worked less than 40 hours of overtime this entire year. i turn off my company blackberry at night.
SilverBullet432
06-18-15, 00:39
Scottyran: #18. If you are a petroleum engineer, around here you will be in an office all day going to meetings and have all sorts of people kiss your ass and give you things just for you to give them work. The poor bastard stuck at the rig is the guy under you :sarcastic: .
whatever the hell you do, RESEARCH. Undergrad research gives you connections and sets you ahead.
STEM, like anything is about who you know. People in high positions will hand you things if you step up.
Crow Hunter
06-18-15, 08:22
Not to derail the thread, but tell me more about what this thesis is going to be on (i know what metrology is - just wondering what application you're working in).
By the way, a lot of what scottryan says is true - i can relate to a lot of it, but fortunately i have had a more positive experience in my career. it's possible to earn a good income on the technical side - you don't have to go into management. but the top technical positions like senior scientist, chief engineer etc mean you really have to know your stuff and it does take a long time. i believe that technical knowledge/experience is harder to replace than managers. it's the niche i've found that works for me.
the reason i've stayed technical is that i don't like dealing with two things: cost and schedule. while i do have to work to those constraints, i'm not responsible for the bean counting. but, i do keep both in mind of course, and strive to perform efficiently.
i'm not going to make as much as a lawyer or doctor, but i have pretty darn good work-life balance. my job allows me to start at 6am, end at 2:30pm, which leaves me the rest of the afternoon to work out or spend with my kid. i've worked less than 40 hours of overtime this entire year. i turn off my company blackberry at night.
I agree.
I don't agree with everything Scottryan is saying but depending on what company you are with, a lot of it can be true. When I was working in Automotive significantly more of Scottryan's comments applied. However, I was also getting paid quite a bit more. I also disagree with his comment about salaries. If I had stayed at my previous employer, I would be making over $100k right now with just 3% raises and I would have had a pension and 9% 401k company match. That is assuming I didn't get promoted during that time and no bonus (which I was getting to the tune of $5k/yr minimum for excellent performance) This was in Clarksville TN.
A couple of years ago, just to see how much I was worth, I interviewed with Lennox in Dallas on a Senior Value engineering job and their starting salary for negotiation purposes was $130,000 IIRC. I wouldn't have taken it, even if they had offered it, because I didn't want to move to Richardson Texas. I don't get paid that now but I also live in a very, very low cost of living area so my less than $100k salary goes a long way. The picture in my avatar is off my back deck for a $466/month house payment.;)
I also disagree with him about promotions. Almost all the staff level management at my current job are engineers. Plant director, engineering, quality and production staff managers are all engineers. HR is the only one that isn't. If you are both good at developing ideas and driving them to completion, you will get promoted in good companies. I was on the fast track at my previous employer but I don't really like managing other people's work. I drove some now industry standard practices while I was there, but I prefer to do it myself. (Less stress/more control)
I currently work only 40 hrs/week and I don't get phone calls at night and I don't work weekends. (I also get to shoot 2X4s out of an air cannon:o) I have worked 4 hours on 1 Saturday in the last 8 years and that was because we had a "snow day" in which the plant shut down and management made the decision that all salaried employees should come in and work 4 hours since all the hourly employees had to come in and work to make up production and they didn't get paid on the snow day. So I came in and played on the internet for 4 hours and went home.;)
I come in at 7 and leave at 4 pretty much every day. Yes there are some business majors here in management that are probably making more than me but they also work more hours. Because they can't do my job, when I say I am leaving at 4:00, I leave at 4:00, because they know that I can leave here and get a job fairly easily. But I 100% agree with Scottryan about Chinese/Indian engineers. Fight H1B visas wherever and however you can. It is just a push to drive down STEM salaries.
As long as you don't have lifestyle creep you can "keep up" with doctors and lawyers from a net worth standpoint because you start making a decent salary much earlier than doctors/lawyers and usually paying less for the education so compound interest works in your favor. However, that being said, if I could do it over again, I would go to medical school and become a PCP. Not because of the money, but because I find it interesting and like helping people. Plus from what I understand most "family doctors/PCP" are not really make much more per year than I do in my area. It is the in demand specialists that really bring in the bank. Think cardiologists.
But yes, don't go into engineering expecting to live like a king. Engineering is, right now, a solid upper middle class job that is unlikely to go away in the future. You can't automate the jobs of the people creating the automation, yet...;)
I agree.
I don't agree with everything Scottryan is saying but depending on what company you are with, a lot of it can be true. When I was working in Automotive significantly more of Scottryan's comments applied. However, I was also getting paid quite a bit more. I also disagree with his comment about salaries. If I had stayed at my previous employer, I would be making over $100k right now with just 3% raises and I would have had a pension and 9% 401k company match. That is assuming I didn't get promoted during that time and no bonus (which I was getting to the tune of $5k/yr minimum for excellent performance) This was in Clarksville TN.
A couple of years ago, just to see how much I was worth, I interviewed with Lennox in Dallas on a Senior Value engineering job and their starting salary for negotiation purposes was $130,000 IIRC. I wouldn't have taken it, even if they had offered it, because I didn't want to move to Richardson Texas. I don't get paid that now but I also live in a very, very low cost of living area so my less than $100k salary goes a long way. The picture in my avatar is off my back deck for a $466/month house payment.;)
I also disagree with him about promotions. Almost all the staff level management at my current job are engineers. Plant director, engineering, quality and production staff managers are all engineers. HR is the only one that isn't. If you are both good at developing ideas and driving them to completion, you will get promoted in good companies. I was on the fast track at my previous employer but I don't really like managing other people's work. I drove some now industry standard practices while I was there, but I prefer to do it myself. (Less stress/more control)
I currently work only 40 hrs/week and I don't get phone calls at night and I don't work weekends. (I also get to shoot 2X4s out of an air cannon:o) I have worked 4 hours on 1 Saturday in the last 8 years and that was because we had a "snow day" in which the plant shut down and management made the decision that all salaried employees should come in and work 4 hours since all the hourly employees had to come in and work to make up production and they didn't get paid on the snow day. So I came in and played on the internet for 4 hours and went home.;)
I come in at 7 and leave at 4 pretty much every day. Yes there are some business majors here in management that are probably making more than me but they also work more hours. Because they can't do my job, when I say I am leaving at 4:00, I leave at 4:00, because they know that I can leave here and get a job fairly easily. But I 100% agree with Scottryan about Chinese/Indian engineers. Fight H1B visas wherever and however you can. It is just a push to drive down STEM salaries.
As long as you don't have lifestyle creep you can "keep up" with doctors and lawyers from a net worth standpoint because you start making a decent salary much earlier than doctors/lawyers and usually paying less for the education so compound interest works in your favor. However, that being said, if I could do it over again, I would go to medical school and become a PCP. Not because of the money, but because I find it interesting and like helping people. Plus from what I understand most "family doctors/PCP" are not really make much more per year than I do in my area. It is the in demand specialists that really bring in the bank. Think cardiologists.
But yes, don't go into engineering expecting to live like a king. Engineering is, right now, a solid upper middle class job that is unlikely to go away in the future. You can't automate the jobs of the people creating the automation, yet...;)
A 9% company match 401k is the exception now, not the norm.
A 6% company match is getting lucky with 3 to 4% being more common.
This assumes dollar for dollar matching.
Also, shutting your company cell phone off at night is only true if your company let's you. Some are expected to answer within the hour at all times day and night.
The only industry where managers have engineering background are usually automotive or defense.
Pharma will have business people running it.
Also businesses are moving away from promoting engineers and hiring MBA types to manage.
This is what you can expect if you get an ABET accredited BS ME degree.
1. Homework until 3 in the morning every night including weekends during the school year. No life. Job pay will not be proportional to the college time you put in. No spring break because you will be too busy working on end of year school engineering projects.
Meh, we did take weekends off, and I did get to go to 1 spring break. The rest is accurate though. :p
2. You will make more coming out of college than everyone else. In 10 years all the business major morons you went to school with will be making the same or more money than you, as these people will be transitioning to management positions. You will most likely be stuck in the technical side with no upward mobility.
Yep, don't do it if you want to be rich. Do it if you want to be comfortable doing something interesting. If you want a lotta money you gotta marry up in the world like I did.
3. The more competent you are, the less you will advance. You will see morons promoted above you.
Most but not all places are like this. My company isn't, which is why I've been here going on 8 years.
4. To get a raise you must change jobs. Expect 2-4% raises if you stay with the company.
Again, most but not all places are like this. I've average like 8.5% a year, yet another reason I've stuck around 8 years. Changing jobs is a good way to get a big raise though.
5. Another way to get a raise is to move around the country changing jobs. All the high paying jobs are in communist anti gun states.
Nah, we got some good jobs here in HSV. FL has a bunch, as does TX, Kansas, and SC. As odd as it sounds, MS even has some good engineering jobs with Eurocopter and a few others in the north end of the state. On the less free but not communist level PA also has some good jobs.
6. If I had to do it again, I would have been a doctor or a lawyer.
Screw the Dr. BS. I see how many hours my wife puts in. On an hourly basis she makes less than I do. Morally I don't know if I could stand being a lawyer unless I was doing Alan Gura type stuff.
18. For every 1 engineer that gets promoted into a management job, 10 to 20 engineers don't get promoted. Don't expect to ever make more than $100k unless you live in a shipping container mounted to the side of an oil rig.
Depends on where you're at and what you're doing. Around here, $100k+ isn't uncommon for seasoned engineers. I'm pushing that number myself and expect to pass it in another year or two...
24. Company blackberry/iphone that goes off at all hours.
Not here unless you're a manager....
26. You watch your friends start their own white collar company and their only overhead is computers, desks, pens and paper. You start your own company and have multi million dollar loans on manufacturing equipment and constantly worry how you are going to pay for it all.
Only if you're doing manufacturing. Contract engineering services is where the "easy" $ is....
28. Expect a middle class lifestyle with 2000 sq ft house and mediocre automobile. Some have school loans on top of this. No extra money.
Again, depends on where you are and what you're doing. You can live a lot better than that around here....
BTW, I hate to hear when someone has had a piss poor experience as an engineer. My experience has been fantastic, as has most of the guys I graduated with....
By the way, a lot of what scottryan says is true - i can relate to a lot of it, but fortunately i have had a more positive experience in my career. it's possible to earn a good income on the technical side - you don't have to go into management. but the top technical positions like senior scientist, chief engineer etc mean you really have to know your stuff and it does take a long time. i believe that technical knowledge/experience is harder to replace than managers. it's the niche i've found that works for me.
the reason i've stayed technical is that i don't like dealing with two things: cost and schedule. while i do have to work to those constraints, i'm not responsible for the bean counting. but, i do keep both in mind of course, and strive to perform efficiently.
That's the road I'm going down. Of my 8 years in the field, I've been working airworthiness for 7.5 of it. It takes time to learn the regulatory ins and outs and how to navigate them from an engineering qualification perspective. It's to the point that of all the people in my office, I'm the 3rd longest tenured and am the only contractor working as the lead on a platform. The only management I'm interested in is the level of my direct supervisor where I only have to allocate the contract dollars we're awarded to the people on the task.
I too agree with most of ScottRyan's information - we have some outlier firms out here where being technical staff is the only means of moving up (but have strange issues like the MBA types just getting the simplest technical degrees possible just to get in line for the greasy pole), but it's not bad.
Annual raises at one firm is a business model that has been somewhat outmoded by the sort of expectation that one would just move from company to company, take their 401k and RothIRA's with them, and basically be making diagonal moves every few years.
For my part, the wife has her MD, so I'm really finishing out the degree so that I have more flexibility choosing a quality of life/income balance, and open up comparable options for her - MM absolutely nailed the fact that there are medical fields where mid-level engineers get paid more to do honestly less tiring work with less education that is arguably more rewarding than some family practice stuff (and PPACA is going to shit on the salaries of that entire field in short order despite that).
There are still plenty of firms where bringing in MBA types for leadership positions is too expensive in terms of the scale of mistakes and poor decisions made - that said if you decide to go towards management, have an ME in something like Engineering Management, Information Systems Management, or an outright MBA means your own ambition is what sets the soft ceiling. For my part, I've already discovered that I miss working in a lab/shop setting way too badly after just a couple of years (amusingly, this was what I missed most in the military, as I've been working in university and industry labs or machine shops since I was 12 years old), so getting 'sidelined' into a technical only track isn't too bad - I know I can just round out my PhD and teach part time, which is another passion of mine I've discovered.
MM - It's mostly on the process engineering side, integrating metrology into distributed machining (especially towards stuff like crowd-sourced 3D printing and small milling center type projects) as an SE metamodel implementation where a prime assembler can push not only specifications and procedures, but requirements, inspection, and stereolithography as part of a requirements completeness and model validation pass for the greater overall project. Tricky part will be selling it as a value added (think Lean/Sixσ) thing worth integrating into a modeling toolset... I have no idea if I'll be able to gather enough really solid real-world data for the latter, but I could probably expand it out to the PhD thesis to do so (if I don't move to a cognitive radio project for giggles).
militarymoron
06-18-15, 12:28
The only industry where managers have engineering background are usually automotive or defense.
Pharma will have business people running it.
Also businesses are moving away from promoting engineers and hiring MBA types to manage.
I'm in defense, so most of the upper management are technical folks that have moved up the ladder. All pretty knowledgeable and technically competent. funny you should mention pharma - my wife was in pharma (PhD in biochemistry), but in her line of work most of the managers were Pharm D, PhD or MDs. Her best friend is a Pharm D, J.D. After my wife got her PhD, she went straight into industry. Didn't want to do a post-doc or get into academia. Then she went out on her own as a consultant, and now she's a stay at home mom and rock-climbing junkie :-)
Yeah, i don't know much about non-defense businesses; but i'm pretty familiar with the larger defense contractors (23 years in defense/aerospace industry - my background is a B.S. in aerospace engineering and M.S. in Engineering/Production Management).
Crow Hunter
06-18-15, 12:33
I too agree with most of ScottRyan's information - we have some outlier firms out here where being technical staff is the only means of moving up (but have strange issues like the MBA types just getting the simplest technical degrees possible just to get in line for the greasy pole), but it's not bad.
Annual raises at one firm is a business model that has been somewhat outmoded by the sort of expectation that one would just move from company to company, take their 401k and RothIRA's with them, and basically be making diagonal moves every few years.
For my part, the wife has her MD, so I'm really finishing out the degree so that I have more flexibility choosing a quality of life/income balance, and open up comparable options for her - MM absolutely nailed the fact that there are medical fields where mid-level engineers get paid more to do honestly less tiring work with less education that is arguably more rewarding than some family practice stuff (and PPACA is going to shit on the salaries of that entire field in short order despite that).
There are still plenty of firms where bringing in MBA types for leadership positions is too expensive in terms of the scale of mistakes and poor decisions made - that said if you decide to go towards management, have an ME in something like Engineering Management, Information Systems Management, or an outright MBA means your own ambition is what sets the soft ceiling. For my part, I've already discovered that I miss working in a lab/shop setting way too badly after just a couple of years (amusingly, this was what I missed most in the military, as I've been working in university and industry labs or machine shops since I was 12 years old), so getting 'sidelined' into a technical only track isn't too bad - I know I can just round out my PhD and teach part time, which is another passion of mine I've discovered.
MM - It's mostly on the process engineering side, integrating metrology into distributed machining (especially towards stuff like crowd-sourced 3D printing and small milling center type projects) as an SE metamodel implementation where a prime assembler can push not only specifications and procedures, but requirements, inspection, and stereolithography as part of a requirements completeness and model validation pass for the greater overall project. Tricky part will be selling it as a value added (think Lean/Sixσ) thing worth integrating into a modeling toolset... I have no idea if I'll be able to gather enough really solid real-world data for the latter, but I could probably expand it out to the PhD thesis to do so (if I don't move to a cognitive radio project for giggles).
To your thesis.
Make sure you delve into the very value added benefit of dynamic feedback. One of the prime theoretical benefits, in my experience, with integrated metrology is the ability to get very, very tight toleranced parts at a high output rate. With that continuous dynamic measuring you can make minute automatic adjustments to parts as tools wear and as part temperatures change that you just won't see when you are doing SPC sampling.
The problem that we always had was the determination of the "referee" machine. Because each piece of equipment had it's own feedback gage and thereby its own gage error, they didn't always agree with the final "referee" gauge. When you are talking about a +/- 12 micron tolerance, you are losing some "good" product because the errors don't line up.
I always pushed to throw the "referee" gauge out and only go with the integrated metrology but someone in quality would always take a part off the line that had passed one of these machines and have it fail the "referee" gage and then declare that there was something wrong with the integrated gages even with me trying to explain error to them... So we always had to have a stupid "referee" gage that just introduced more confusion and error into the process.
I always wanted to develop an integrated gaging solution that had a known good master verification feedback loop during tool changes or other required downtime that could be used to back check all the parts since the last known good master verification rather than just relying on operators to skip this process...
Depending on where you are located and if my former company is still using it, I can get you in touch with a company that was using 100% gaging of parts as they were machined on multiple spindle Murata lathes.
militarymoron
06-18-15, 12:40
MM - It's mostly on the process engineering side, integrating metrology into distributed machining (especially towards stuff like crowd-sourced 3D printing and small milling center type projects) as an SE metamodel implementation where a prime assembler can push not only specifications and procedures, but requirements, inspection, and stereolithography as part of a requirements completeness and model validation pass for the greater overall project. Tricky part will be selling it as a value added (think Lean/Sixσ) thing worth integrating into a modeling toolset... I have no idea if I'll be able to gather enough really solid real-world data for the latter, but I could probably expand it out to the PhD thesis to do so (if I don't move to a cognitive radio project for giggles).
That sounds pretty interesting. I work with both large and small scale metrology as part of my job but typically it's of the 'take measurements then adjust as necessary, then re-measure' thing. what we're trying to do is tie in the measurement equipment with actuators for adjustment so that adjustments can be made automatically with a constant feedback loop. simple in concept but not so easy in execution. by the way, this isn't anything to do with machining parts (instruments used are laser trackers, photogrammetry, theodolites, autocollimators etc).
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