View Full Version : So When The Last "Transferable" Machine Gun Breaks...
It's only been 30 years and we've seen a lot of the single leg registered HK sears (actually a sear trip lever in most cases but that's beside the point), lightning links and other "paper clip" quality registered devices break beyond repair.
Even quality stuff like Colt, FN and HK receivers have a finite life span. They were designed around ideas of mass production and never intended to have 50 year service lives. One day all the registered receiver HKs and registered AR lowers are going to give up the ghost. Registered tube guns, yeah sure there are a lot of them, but they also won't last forever.
Some John Browning designs, especially those that don't involve a water jacket might chug along for another century or so. And certainly those "white glove" examples that haven't been fired for 20 years and won't ever be fired again will have a long life expectancy, but for the prices they will command they might as well be "non transferable" and sitting in a museum.
Currently affordable (meaning the price of a decent car or less) transferable machine guns will have one of two fates. They will either be used and eventually fired past the point of no return or they will be treated as collectibles and the prices will increase beyond the means of your average person as the supply dwindles.
In the 1990s prices for a Colt M-16 were outrageous at $5,000 or more. What about in 50 years? What will be the legal ramifications when we arrive at the point where no "transferables" exist? Right now we live in a NFA created "never never land" where a person "technically" can own a machine gun even if they can't actually afford it.
Doc Safari
04-17-15, 16:17
As far as the gummunt is concerned, the whole idea is to make sure that machine guns "die out" as an item in the hands of the public, even if it takes decades. This is one of the main reasons (other than expense) why I never delved into NFA items. You can end up with a $10,000 wall hanger for want of a small irreplaceable part.
"Swami predict" that 3D printing technology will eventually supercede any legal qualms certain owners of NFA items have about their investments becoming boat anchors.
Nothing is truly irreplaceable, except for serialized parts. When someone spends that kind of money as an investment, it's no question to hire a machinist to keep it functioning. There are plenty of old pieces that have been rehabilitated. As for price, it's a straightforward microeconomics model. Supply dwindles while demand increases. Not much to say. That was the plan. What else is there to say? Last machine gun owner, get the lights on the way out?
Nothing is truly irreplaceable, except for serialized parts. When someone spends that kind of money as an investment, it's no question to hire a machinist to keep it functioning. There are plenty of old pieces that have been rehabilitated. As for price, it's a straightforward microeconomics model. Supply dwindles while demand increases. Not much to say. That was the plan. What else is there to say? Last machine gun owner, get the lights on the way out?
Not sure even the greatest machinist in the world could keep this sustainable forever.
http://firearmdeals.com/Dons/LL08122007_%20001.jpg
Of course a talented machinist could probably produce and exact copy complete with serial number with nobody the wiser. Would be harder to do with something like a HK receiver.
KalashniKEV
04-17-15, 18:55
1) Will never happen because the majority of NFA items belong to fat old guys who don't shoot them at all.
2) Too easy to reproduce, reserialize, and destroy the original.
3) If everyone made a machine gun this weekend, the law would disappear... kind of like illegal immigration.
1) Will never happen because the majority of NFA items belong to fat old guys who don't shoot them at all.
Not really, the vast majority of the stuff on the registry is "mass produced" sears, links and tubes. Things like Ingram M-10s alone probably outnumber all the WWI era stuff combined.
2) Too easy to reproduce, reserialize, and destroy the original.
$100 bills aren't that easy to duplicate either, but serious consequences and not everyone has access to the necessary equipment.
3) If everyone made a machine gun this weekend, the law would disappear... kind of like illegal immigration.
Illegal immigration is viewed by far too many retards as a "humanitarian" issue, that is why the permissiveness exists. An equal number of people struggle with trying to decide if just "anybody" should be able to own a semi auto rifle or high capacity magazine.
Even if there was large scale civil disobedience, a huge number of those participants would be rounded up and convicted and would never be able to own a firearm again. Illegal immigrants are simply sent back to Mexico, when anything is actually done which is almost never, and really lose nothing.
Now if everyone decided to contact their rep and was willing to vote things like the sporter clause out of existence that would have a domino effect and undermine the MG ban (and most other regulations) found in the 1968 Gun Control Act, the other MG ban found in FOPA 1986 and the 1989 Import Ban.
With the registry open, a select fire M4 would cost about as much as an SBR. The "old white guy" collectibles like original Maxim's, Thompsons, BARs, etc. would pretty much retain their value for the most part. Registered sear and registered receiver conversions would lose most of their value overnight.
Flankenstein
04-17-15, 20:58
Voting will learn them.
Flankenstein
04-17-15, 20:59
3) If everyone made a machine gun this weekend, the law would disappear... kind of like illegal immigration.
Pretty much.
Flankenstein
04-17-15, 21:05
However..AUG, your points about humanitarian issue vs "crazy domestic terrorists" is valid.
What's to say that when ur m16 lower fails u can't cut a replica from an 80% lower? Serial number and all? Obviosly illegal, but would anyone know?
People will start doing what they damn well please? Is my guess lol.
Flankenstein
04-17-15, 22:56
People will start doing what they damn well please? Is my guess lol.
Doubtful.
Doubtful.
Reason being? People have a propensity to resist when faced with unjust sanctions.
Flankenstein
04-17-15, 23:18
Reason being? People have a propensity to resist when faced with unjust sanctions.
People are soft and are scared of jail/prison.
CleverNickname
04-17-15, 23:22
What about in 50 years?
In 50 years one or more of the following will have occurred:
1. 922(o) and/or the NFA will have been repealed, either by court case or by passing a new bill.
2. Or the opposite: owning guns will be more much more difficult for the general public and people will care more about owning a gun, period, than a machine gun no one ever shoots.
3. The putative federal government will govern a smaller amount of land & population than it does today, so fewer people will care about what laws it enforces.
4. We'll all be shooting laser blasters or rail guns or something and no one will care about gunpowder-actuated firearms shooting small metallic pellets and whether they shoot more than one pellet per trigger pull or not.
What's to say that when ur m16 lower fails u can't cut a replica from an 80% lower? Serial number and all? Obviosly illegal, but would anyone know?
I just wonder how many guys will risk their entire gun collection, 10 years and thousands of dollars.
There were guys who did time simply for having paper machine guns.
Moose-Knuckle
04-18-15, 01:04
If we're still here in 50 years I would surmise that one would have their pick of any NFA classified weapons from the corpses strewn about . . .
I just wonder how many guys will risk their entire gun collection, 10 years and thousands of dollars.
There were guys who did time simply for having paper machine guns.
I get that, but honestly, how would anyone know? Other than blabbing about it on a public forum, lol. I have access to multiple HASS 4 and 5 axis CNC machines. I know SolidWorks and AutoCAD, have friends who know ProE very well. Grab a caliper, measure an existing full auto registered lower that had a failure, let's say. Draw it up, machine it out of the correct aluminum and destroy the broken original. 30 years ago this was out of the realm of possibility for most people, today it's really not that hard.
One day I hope to live in a free state where I can have NFA items. I doubt the NFA will be abolished by the time I leave this nazi shit hole, so I'll have to pay up. For now, I can only dream of SBRs Supressors and full autos. Hell, I've never even held any of them in my hands lol.
...
There were guys who did time simply for having paper machine guns.
Huh? Details please.
Steyr, do you know of actual reports where a sear, LL, or similar conversion device was broken beyond repair? This scenario is why I went with a DLO registered HK frame/trigger box instead of a sear. Frankly, short of it being run over by a tank I don't think there is a scenario where one could wear out a HK trigger box. Same with AR DIAS, well steel body DIAS. I went with factory Colts for my M16s, but I wish I had purchased a DIAS before they were at current stratospheric levels. I don't think you could realistically wear out an UZI or mp5 beyond repair. Same goes for a 1919.
We are fast reaching the point where the desirable transferable MGs are totally priced out of the average shooter's means. Frankly this could be the means to bring 922(o) to court. Sue for equal protect under the law because 922(o) has artificially raised prices above what is attainable by the common man.
I really want to see 922(o) repealed. We may see it happen one day, it just needs to be done smartly. And sequentially. We need to take a play from the gun banner's playbook of death by a thousand cuts. Small incremental steps, all building up to the ultimate ability to repeal 922(o). We need to start with the sporting clause. I think with Heller as case law, the sporting clause could easily be challenged in court. A domestically produced AR15, SCAR, AUG, etc is legal but an imported version is not? And because thise domestically produced firearms are in common use, under Heller they are protected. So how then can identical imported rifles not be protected under the 2a?
MountainRaven
04-19-15, 14:51
Steyr, do you know of actual reports where a sear, LL, or similar conversion device was broken beyond repair? This scenario is why I went with a DLO registered HK frame/trigger box instead of a sear. Frankly, short of it being run over by a tank I don't think there is a scenario where one could wear out a HK trigger box. Same with AR DIAS, well steel body DIAS. I went with factory Colts for my M16s, but I wish I had purchased a DIAS before they were at current stratospheric levels. I don't think you could realistically wear out an UZI or mp5 beyond repair. Same goes for a 1919.
We are fast reaching the point where the desirable transferable MGs are totally priced out of the average shooter's means. Frankly this could be the means to bring 922(o) to court. Sue for equal protect under the law because 922(o) has artificially raised prices above what is attainable by the common man.
I really want to see 922(o) repealed. We may see it happen one day, it just needs to be done smartly. And sequentially. We need to take a play from the gun banner's playbook of death by a thousand cuts. Small incremental steps, all building up to the ultimate ability to repeal 922(o). We need to start with the sporting clause. I think with Heller as case law, the sporting clause could easily be challenged in court. A domestically produced AR15, SCAR, AUG, etc is legal but an imported version is not? And because thise domestically produced firearms are in common use, under Heller they are protected. So how then can identical imported rifles not be protected under the 2a?
Fast reaching? I'm pretty sure we've been there for some time now. Hell, the entire purpose of the National Firearms Act was to price the average shooter out of machine guns, silencers, and short-barreled rifles/shotguns.
People are soft and are scared of jail/prison.
Which is exactly why there hasn't been an MAJOR armed revolt since the 1860's......
Huh? Details please.
In the days before FOPA 86 went info effect manufacturers went into overtime mass producing things like sears and submitted bulk registration and serial numbers. In many cases those serial numbers were approved but the item in question was never manufactured.
These are "paper machine guns." They exist on paper but the sear, receiver or other registered item was never actually made. It was something that would be hard to prove when we are talking about things like stamped sears.
But a few guys got nailed selling approved "paper machine guns" at a few "shooting events" in the early 90s. In this case no actual machine gun, sear or receiver even existed and they still were successfully prosecuted.
Steyr, do you know of actual reports where a sear, LL, or similar conversion device was broken beyond repair? This scenario is why I went with a DLO registered HK frame/trigger box instead of a sear. Frankly, short of it being run over by a tank I don't think there is a scenario where one could wear out a HK trigger box. Same with AR DIAS, well steel body DIAS. I went with factory Colts for my M16s, but I wish I had purchased a DIAS before they were at current stratospheric levels. I don't think you could realistically wear out an UZI or mp5 beyond repair. Same goes for a 1919.
We are fast reaching the point where the desirable transferable MGs are totally priced out of the average shooter's means. Frankly this could be the means to bring 922(o) to court. Sue for equal protect under the law because 922(o) has artificially raised prices above what is attainable by the common man.
I really want to see 922(o) repealed. We may see it happen one day, it just needs to be done smartly. And sequentially. We need to take a play from the gun banner's playbook of death by a thousand cuts. Small incremental steps, all building up to the ultimate ability to repeal 922(o). We need to start with the sporting clause. I think with Heller as case law, the sporting clause could easily be challenged in court. A domestically produced AR15, SCAR, AUG, etc is legal but an imported version is not? And because thise domestically produced firearms are in common use, under Heller they are protected. So how then can identical imported rifles not be protected under the 2a?
Well first not everybody shows you their damaged item that they may be thinking about refabricating.
But I have personally seen several lightning links that were broken beyond repair. I've seen a few (all of them Hard Times Armory) HK sears that were cracked or broken and one that had been welded to fix it.
Had a large internet MG dealer transfer a HK sear with a stress crack in it to one of my customers.
In the days before FOPA 86 went info effect manufacturers went into overtime mass producing things like sears and submitted bulk registration and serial numbers. In many cases those serial numbers were approved but the item in question was never manufactured. These are "paper machine guns." They exist on paper but the sear, receiver or other registered item was never actually made..
After FOPA passed ATF visited MFGs especially ones who submitted lots of F2s in the waning days and verified the MGs existed, those that did not were removed from the rolls.
I am not sure what [got nailed selling approved "paper machine guns"] means, but anyone who bought a MG that did not exist deserved to get burned.
KalashniKEV
04-19-15, 16:58
Not really, the vast majority of the stuff on the registry is "mass produced" sears, links and tubes. Things like Ingram M-10s alone probably outnumber all the WWI era stuff combined.
That's part of my point... how do you wear out a MAC-type or an Uzi?
They can be repaired forever... and now that they have gone up so much in price, it's a guarantee they will be.
$100 bills aren't that easy to duplicate either...
That's the opposite of my point- Lightning Links are easy to duplicate. So are all the open bolt subguns. Most AK-types already have the target stamped in the side for the third axis pin.
Illegal immigration is viewed by far too many retards as a "humanitarian" issue, that is why the permissiveness exists.
...that and you can't jail 20 million illegals.
Can you jail 8.25 million people? That's only 15% of gun owners (a conservative estimate of how many would convert, IMO).
But a few guys got nailed selling approved "paper machine guns" at a few "shooting events" in the early 90s. In this case no actual machine gun, sear or receiver even existed and they still were successfully prosecuted.
Well that's pretty stupid.
...all because homeboy couldn't trouble himself to electropencil the SN on a MAC flat the night before the sale and say, "Here it is!"
Sometimes stupid is supposed to hurt.
After FOPA passed ATF visited MFGs especially ones who submitted lots of F2s in the waning days and verified the MGs existed, those that did not were removed from the rolls.
I am not sure what [got nailed selling approved "paper machine guns"] means, but anyone who bought a MG that did not exist deserved to get burned.
I didn't want to be very specific. Check your PM.
In 50 years one or more of the following will have occurred:
...
4. We'll all be shooting laser blasters or rail guns or something and no one will care about gunpowder-actuated firearms shooting small metallic pellets and whether they shoot more than one pellet per trigger pull or not.
I'm still waiting for mass-produced flying cars that were promised 50yrs ago. I doubt laser guns will be here in the next 50yrs, and most of us won't be either.
I get that, but honestly, how would anyone know? Other than blabbing about it on a public forum, lol. I have access to multiple HASS 4 and 5 axis CNC machines. I know SolidWorks and AutoCAD, have friends who know ProE very well. Grab a caliper, measure an existing full auto registered lower that had a failure, let's say. Draw it up, machine it out of the correct aluminum and destroy the broken original. 30 years ago this was out of the realm of possibility for most people, today it's really not that hard.
One day I hope to live in a free state where I can have NFA items. I doubt the NFA will be abolished by the time I leave this nazi shit hole, so I'll have to pay up. For now, I can only dream of SBRs Supressors and full autos. Hell, I've never even held any of them in my hands lol.
Well for your sake, you are always free to move to a free state. I never understood how some people have lived in such restrictive places (yes I have family in NJ).
MountainRaven
04-19-15, 23:55
I'm still waiting for mass-produced flying cars that were promised 50yrs ago. I doubt laser guns will be here in the next 50yrs, and most of us won't be either.
I doubt anyone in 1812 would have believed you if you'd said that wars would be fought with repeating firearms fifty years later.
I doubt anyone in 1862 would have believed you if you'd said that heavier-than-air flight would be achieved in fifty years.
I doubt that anyone in 1912 - outside the scientific community - would even understand the importance of splitting the atom, the development of jet-propelled aircraft capable of breaking the speed of sound in level flight and firing guided weapons. Or that the German Kaiserreich would be divided and occupied by the British Empire, the French Republic, and the US in alliance with a communist Russian regime (while the Ottomon-Turkish- and Austro-Hungarian Empires would be broken up in just a few years). Or that the American backwater (and Russia under bomb throwing anarchists) would go from being regional powers to global superpowers.
Hell, in 1962, people thought it would be nearly 200 years before we could carry handheld communication devices that would allow us to contact people on the other side of the planet.
So in 50 years, we may not get the technological and political developments we're expecting, but we wouldn't likely recognize the world of 50 years from now, with some changes that we can't even imagine today.
I doubt anyone in 1812 would have believed you if you'd said that wars would be fought with repeating firearms fifty years later.
I doubt anyone in 1862 would have believed you if you'd said that heavier-than-air flight would be achieved in fifty years.
I doubt that anyone in 1912 - outside the scientific community - would even understand the importance of splitting the atom, the development of jet-propelled aircraft capable of breaking the speed of sound in level flight and firing guided weapons. Or that the German Kaiserreich would be divided and occupied by the British Empire, the French Republic, and the US in alliance with a communist Russian regime (while the Ottomon-Turkish- and Austro-Hungarian Empires would be broken up in just a few years). Or that the American backwater (and Russia under bomb throwing anarchists) would go from being regional powers to global superpowers.
Hell, in 1962, people thought it would be nearly 200 years before we could carry handheld communication devices that would allow us to contact people on the other side of the planet.
So in 50 years, we may not get the technological and political developments we're expecting, but we wouldn't likely recognize the world of 50 years from now, with some changes that we can't even imagine today.
In defense, the speed of technological advancement in the 1800's vs today is vastly different.
For me, what's more important than having laser guns is repealing NFA laws; and more important than flying cars are green vehicles. But I digress.
Machine guns and parts will most likely still be around 50yrs from now (speculation of course), barring any new laws that may ban them in the coming years.
MountainRaven
04-20-15, 00:40
In defense, the speed of technological advancement in the 1800's vs today is vastly different.
For me, what's more important than having laser guns is repealing NFA laws; and more important than flying cars are green vehicles. But I digress.
Machine guns and parts will most likely still be around 50yrs from now (speculation of course), barring any new laws that may ban them in the coming years.
Yes. Today, it's much faster. ;)
KalashniKEV
04-20-15, 11:20
Yes. Today, it's much faster. ;)
That's what I was going to say.
How many more years before early adopters will have selective laser sintering machines in their homes?
The DEFCAD stuff is not-so-appealing because it's not durable, but what if you could turn out a full set of durable metal parts, put them together, and have an SMG?
http://redlinecnc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/additive-manufacturing.png
Shoot it in the backyard when no one's looking, retain the file on some hidden flash disk and then grind the gun back into reusable media.
I can think of a few designs that would be simple to clone right off the top of my head, but probably there would be new designs with superior ergos pretty quickly given the capapbilities of this technology.
Moose-Knuckle
04-20-15, 23:04
Anyone ever been in a Harbor Freight or Northern Tool & Equipment store? Lathes, drill presses, 20 ton shop presses, oh my!
One can go to their local big box home improvement warehouse retail store and acquire everything they would need to create something along the lines of a Sten. The Brits were stamping these out for £2 ($10 US) during the war. With an annual inflation of 3.73% that works out to about $134.94 today.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.