View Full Version : Bushmaster, DPMS, Rock River...
OK, I'm not looking to start another I love...I hate thread.
Our bids came in and it looks like the choices are between Bushmaster, DPMS, and Rock River.
The requirements called for a chrome lined chamber and bore so all will be ordered/delivered that way. The carbines will have A2 carry handles.
I start by saying I have shot all three, as complete guns, and started out as parts (uppers/lowers), with positive results. I have also personally seen all 3 have problems from the factory or otherwise.
So with that being said, I want documentable facts as to why one is better than the others...
Thanks for the help!
Charles Daly
07-13-08, 09:50
Just curious as to what bid you are referring to? Is it too late for another brand to be considered?
you should at least consider CD.
i know i am--
+1 I compared all 3, thought I made a decision-then I found Robs chart(thanks Rob) and that's why I bought a CDM4LE (thanks Michael):D
BushmasterFanBoy
07-13-08, 13:05
I'm not qualified to say which of those three brands are better, but I suggest maybe looking at Rob_S's excellent chart to compare the three.
All three that you mentioned are certainly terrible choices. It's been hashed out again and again. The only people who buy those three are people who go to the range and shoot a couple of rounds per year. I would not touch any of those models, especially if they are for serious use. Bushmaster is notorious for putting out absolutely horrendous guns (aside from the upcoming ACR which MagPul will make sure is built to spec), and DPMS is a joke. Rock River Arms weaponry is equally appalling.
I would STRONGLY consider that you re-select a brand. Charles Daly puts out some great weapons at a reasonable price point. Colt is obviously the undisputed master, and may even offer some discounts if you order enough of them perhaps?
All you need do is look and you will see that in several cases, it looks like Bushmaster just throws the stuff out the door. Get ahold of Skintop911. He has many documented cases of having to redo Bushmaster bozo no-no's for LE." If you've got the overtime, Bushmaster gotz the goods".
he requirements called for a chrome lined chamber and bore so all will be ordered/delivered that way. The carbines will have A2 carry handles.
Can you post your bid specs? Are you in a binding purchase agreement following bid? A quick change that gives the nod to one over the other, or to something much better, might be prudent.
Rock-N-Ruin
07-14-08, 00:58
I would spend a couple hundred bucks per rifle and go with at least an LMT, I have 1 RRA that was made in 2002 and it's completely different than the current production ones, properly staked bolt key, parkerized under FSB (F marked FSB at that also) I also have an LMT which was done right also.. However RRA's quality has gone down hill as I purchased a RRA Entry Tactical in Feb 2007 and has none of the aforementioned specified items as the one manufactured in 2002, I put a low profile DD gas block on it and to find bare metal pissed me off.. The one from 02 is marked Gov/LE also.. So what I am getting at is RRA used to make a decent product but has been lacking quality workmanship lately in my opinion.. I once owned a Bushmaster and it was a POS in my opinion, I wouldn't touch a DPMS rifle.. I only paid $700.00 for the LE/GOV RRA, so that was a bargain and it's been quite reliable, The newer one has only had about 4K through it with no FTF's or FTE's and same with the LMT..
Why do you only have RRA, DPMS and Bushmaster to choose from??? I take it these are going to be department owned guns? If you have an option to pick your own manufacture for a personally owned weapon, that would be ideal.. Good luck.. Rock
rowdeyreddog
07-14-08, 05:26
After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that I have really messed up.I bought a bushmaster about 4 months ago.It hasn't given me any problems as of yet,but the way you guys talk that will be short lived.That being said can you tell me what I can do to bring my rifle up to par or would it be best to sell it and start over.
After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that I have really messed up.I bought a bushmaster about 4 months ago.It hasn't given me any problems as of yet,but the way you guys talk that will be short lived.That being said can you tell me what I can do to bring my rifle up to par or would it be best to sell it and start over.
First of all, I don't think you "really messed up", just maybe over-paid a bit is all. You may want to look here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642) and here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376), and if you're set on selling and starting over (or want to see why I say you may have over-paid) look here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4524).
rowdeyreddog
07-14-08, 06:15
Thanks for the info rob.I am going to perform the upgrades that were listed in the link as I will be using my rifle for home defense.Also in the future I will do more research before buying.Thanks again. Tom
Unless you can find an odd the shelf RRA, enjoy the wait! Or, spend a few $$ more and get a Noveske. :cool:
I have neither the tools nor the knowledge to assemble a parts gun for my 1st AR, so I determined, from Robs chart, that the CDM4LE would be the best value for me. Ordered one thru a pawn shop(lowest price-less than $1000 total price out the door) including Michaels lifetime warranty and I have his personal phone# if it breaks :) Exceptional-so far. I'd be willing to bet, CD offers a LE discount :cool:
OK, I'm not looking to start another I love...I hate thread.
Our bids came in and it looks like the choices are between Bushmaster, DPMS, and Rock River.
The requirements called for a chrome lined chamber and bore so all will be ordered/delivered that way. The carbines will have A2 carry handles.
I start by saying I have shot all three, as complete guns, and started out as parts (uppers/lowers), with positive results. I have also personally seen all 3 have problems from the factory or otherwise.
So with that being said, I want documentable facts as to why one is better than the others...
Thanks for the help!
This is kind of like picking the lessor of 3 evils. So to say that one is better from another is really hard to say.
From what we have been seeing of late, the DPMS looks like it might have the best staking of the gas key. The BM on the other hand has better barrel steel.
I guess that I would have to say go with the BM and make sure to stake the castle nut and gas key.
I would also check the chamber and make sure it is a true 556 NATO (not a 223 wylde one).
C4
BushmasterFanBoy
07-14-08, 19:42
After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that I have really messed up.I bought a bushmaster about 4 months ago.It hasn't given me any problems as of yet,but the way you guys talk that will be short lived.That being said can you tell me what I can do to bring my rifle up to par or would it be best to sell it and start over.
If it hasn't given you any problems then you haven't ran it hard enough.
If it continues to work, then you're in the minority of users who have Bushmaster's that work properly.
Go buy a lottery ticket.
You over paid, and have a rifle that is at the bottom of the scrap bucket. It's been assembled with shoddy parts which fail to meet minimum TDP requirements in nearly every regard. Your weapon (if it can even be called that :rolleyes: ), was pinned, punched, and snapped together with carelessness and ignorant hands. Assembly workers who are blind to ideas such as a staked castle nut and a staked carrier key. Bushmaster deems these points of interest as unnecessary. Bushmaster is notorious for putting out absolutely horrendous examples of the AR-15, and their reputation is most certainly well deserved. Huge failure rates have been observed by both instructors and students at multiple instructional classes. These anecdotal accounts are worthless on their own, but when taken as a whole they are much too plentiful to ignore.
These observations are factual and demonstrate just how pitiful a weapon Bushmaster is capable of putting out.
You won't catch me with a Bushmaster any time soon and I doubt anyone on this forum who takes themselves seriously would honestly consider using a Bushmaster.
platypusREX
07-15-08, 00:33
If it hasn't given you any problems then you haven't ran it hard enough.
If it continues to work, then you're in the minority of users who have Bushmaster's that work properly.
Go buy a lottery ticket.
You over paid, and have a rifle that is at the bottom of the scrap bucket. It's been assembled with shoddy parts which fail to meet minimum TDP requirements in nearly every regard. Your weapon (if it can even be called that :rolleyes: ), was pinned, punched, and snapped together with carelessness and ignorant hands. Assembly workers who are blind to ideas such as a staked castle nut and a staked carrier key. Bushmaster deems these points of interest as unnecessary. Bushmaster is notorious for putting out absolutely horrendous examples of the AR-15, and their reputation is most certainly well deserved. Huge failure rates have been observed by both instructors and students at multiple instructional classes. These anecdotal accounts are worthless on their own, but when taken as a whole they are much too plentiful to ignore.
These observations are factual and demonstrate just how pitiful a weapon Bushmaster is capable of putting out.
You won't catch me with a Bushmaster any time soon and I doubt anyone on this forum who takes themselves seriously would honestly consider using a Bushmaster.
http://i38.tinypic.com/2mpd3id.jpg
Dude, go to AA.
rowdeyreddog
07-15-08, 01:09
If it hasn't given you any problems then you haven't ran it hard enough.
If it continues to work, then you're in the minority of users who have Bushmaster's that work properly.
Go buy a lottery ticket.
You over paid, and have a rifle that is at the bottom of the scrap bucket. It's been assembled with shoddy parts which fail to meet minimum TDP requirements in nearly every regard. Your weapon (if it can even be called that :rolleyes: ), was pinned, punched, and snapped together with carelessness and ignorant hands. Assembly workers who are blind to ideas such as a staked castle nut and a staked carrier key. Bushmaster deems these points of interest as unnecessary. Bushmaster is notorious for putting out absolutely horrendous examples of the AR-15, and their reputation is most certainly well deserved. Huge failure rates have been observed by both instructors and students at multiple instructional classes. These anecdotal accounts are worthless on their own, but when taken as a whole they are much too plentiful to ignore.
These observations are factual and demonstrate just how pitiful a weapon Bushmaster is capable of putting out.
You won't catch me with a Bushmaster any time soon and I doubt anyone on this forum who takes themselves seriously would honestly consider using a Bushmaster.
I take it you would recommend selling the bushmaster and starting over.:D
After my 23 years of military service, I spent some years as a Production Manager in a couple different assembly line production companies-automotive and industrial hardware. All decisions/policies/standards came from the top down. The worker at the bottom was just following those guidelines as per written directive. Don't blame them for a sub standard product. They assembled the product with the parts that were given to them. I've seen Quality Control depts told to pass/ignore borderline products to meet production quotas. It was all about numbers out the door. And what good is a quality product if no one in customer service answers the phone or calls you back? The bottom line for any consumer good: is what are you going to use it for, how much do you want to pay, how much are you willing to pay for a "name brand", how long do you expect it to last, is it an entry level item, do you plan to upgrade in the future? Every ones answers are different to these questions. We all can't afford Porsches to drive to Wally World and back, especially with the wife and 2 children. Not everyone bought a Colt for their 1st AR, and will never use it to defend their life. We were all newbies once. :cool:
BushmasterFanBoy
07-15-08, 01:45
I take it you would recommend selling the bushmaster and starting over.:D
Major understatement.
How about not selling it so that others won't have to experience their gas key shearing off, stock coming loose, and become an expert at clearing jams.
I think every forum member here would tell you to either upgrade or ditch the Bushmaster. Bushmaster has soured our mouths and Bushmaster just might find that we may not be too willing to suck on their teet again when the ACR is released.
If it hasn't given you any problems then you haven't ran it hard enough. f it continues to work, then you're in the minority of users who have Bushmaster's that work properly. Go buy a lottery ticket. You over paid, and have a rifle that is at the bottom of the scrap bucket. It's been assembled with shoddy parts which fail to meet minimum TDP requirements in nearly every regard. Your weapon (if it can even be called that :rolleyes: ), was pinned, punched, and snapped together with carelessness and ignorant hands. Assembly workers who are blind to ideas such as a staked castle nut and a staked carrier key. Bushmaster deems these points of interest as unnecessary. Bushmaster is notorious for putting out absolutely horrendous examples of the AR-15, and their reputation is most certainly well deserved. Huge failure rates have been observed by both instructors and students at multiple instructional classes. These anecdotal accounts are worthless on their own, but when taken as a whole they are much too plentiful to ignore. These observations are factual and demonstrate just how pitiful a weapon Bushmaster is capable of putting out. You won't catch me with a Bushmaster any time soon and I doubt anyone on this forum who takes themselves seriously would honestly consider using a Bushmaster.
While I'm not the president of the BM fan club, and reticent to run to BM's defense, I think your statement is a little over the top.
BM indeed shortcuts a number of manufacturing and assembly points. The gun is not a cinderblock, however, and many shortcomings are likely correctable. The extent to which they are, and at what expense, will vary.
We should endeavor to be accurate, and avoid such hyperbole.
rowdeyreddog
07-15-08, 16:07
I have started the improvement process on my bushmaster.the carrier key was already stacked but I did it again to improve the stack as it didn't look very good.I would post pics if I knew how, but I'm not that great with computers.
ArmedSuspect
07-15-08, 17:09
to the op, keep the Bushmaster, shoot it and love it.
sure it may seem like Bushy has "a lot" of defects but let's put this in perspective............
in 2005 Bushy put out just over 65,000 rifles. the next closest AR manufacturer was DPMS with just under 22,000. from there it spirals down very quickly, making most other AR manufacturers seem like custom shops. now with that level of production how do things stack up? i wonder what the FAIL % rate is at some of these places?
http://www.shootingindustry.com/Pages/SpecRep4.html#longgun
Bushmaster is a good company with top quality customer service. sure you may need to re-do the gas key but most of us here shoot more than the average guy (well i do) and he'll never know that it's not done properly so what's the big deal. of all of the Bushy rifles i've sold (gun shop) and own i only know of 1 that has had any malfunction. the sight post was canted, that was a quick and easy fix. we had it back in a week with a NEW barrel. even the highly respected LMT has put out some canted FSB's.
to me it's kinda like this.....you are not going to take a factory stock truck (insert your brand) and win the Baja 1000. so why do you expect to buy a factory stock rifle and win a 1000yd competition?
colt = lowest bid with production capability that's all it is! it's a government contract, nothing more. if any other company would have "won" the contract then their rifles would be made to "exact" mil spec. (well the ones for the mil/leo)
to the op, keep the Bushmaster, shoot it and love it.
sure it may seem like Bushy has "a lot" of defects but let's put this in perspective............
in 2005 Bushy put out just over 65,000 rifles. the next closest AR manufacturer was DPMS with just under 22,000. from there it spirals down very quickly, making most other AR manufacturers seem like custom shops. now with that level of production how do things stack up? i wonder what the FAIL % rate is at some of these places?
http://www.shootingindustry.com/Pages/SpecRep4.html#longgun
Bushmaster is a good company with top quality customer service. sure you may need to re-do the gas key but most of us here shoot more than the average guy (well i do) and he'll never know that it's not done properly so what's the big deal. of all of the Bushy rifles i've sold (gun shop) and own i only know of 1 that has had any malfunction. the sight post was canted, that was a quick and easy fix. we had it back in a week with a NEW barrel. even the highly respected LMT has put out some canted FSB's.
to me it's kinda like this.....you are not going to take a factory stock truck (insert your brand) and win the Baja 1000. so why do you expect to buy a factory stock rifle and win a 1000yd competition?
colt = lowest bid with production capability that's all it is! it's a government contract, nothing more. if any other company would have "won" the contract then their rifles would be made to "exact" mil spec. (well the ones for the mil/leo)
This is kind of what I hear from gun store clerks all the time; "They are all the same, you won't shoot it enough to know the difference so why pay more."
QTY does not equal quality. BM does put out a lot of weapons, but that does not excuse them for making the errors that they do.
The purpose and the reason why it is important to buy a weapon that has a .Mil contract (or follows the TDP) is because it is a set standard. BM follows no set standard. So what do you think you get when a company does not have any standard to follow? High quality or low quality? As a general rule, they always follow the standard that puts the most coin in their pocket.
Just to be clear, by having a .Mil contract, the company is required to follow a certain standard. That standard was established (by the Military) to ensure that that a quality fighting weapon is built.
If you only think that BM's only flaws are canted FSB's and poorly staked gas keys, you might want to take a closer look at them.
C4
ArmedSuspect
07-15-08, 17:40
is my LaRue upper milspec? what about the LMT i have on backorder? how about the Noveske i plan to pick up before the election? nope, not milspec at all but all of them better than my issue M16 and M4's.
if a product is junk it'll sink, if not we would be stuck with pinto's. try to make 65,000 anything and not get a few wrong. Colt gets shit wrong too.
what pistol do you shoot? an M9? you think that is the "be all end all" side arm? it's milspec. i can't tell you how many thousands of rounds i've put through M9's and i will never own one. my USP's and glocks are better.
don't forget this is still America (until november) and we are free to buy what it is that makes each of us happy. i don't hate colt, i just don't buy into the hype.
is my LaRue upper milspec? what about the LMT i have on backorder? how about the Noveske i plan to pick up before the election? nope, not milspec at all but all of them better than my issue M16 and M4's.
if a product is junk it'll sink, if not we would be stuck with pinto's. try to make 65,000 anything and not get a few wrong. Colt gets shit wrong too.
what pistol do you shoot? an M9? you think that is the "be all end all" side arm? it's milspec. i can't tell you how many thousands of rounds i've put through M9's and i will never own one. my USP's and glocks are better.
don't forget this is still America (until november) and we are free to buy what it is that makes each of us happy. i don't hate colt, i just don't buy into the hype.
And what hype would that be? Have YOU looked closely at Bushmasters?
In the interest of curiosity (and hopefully not to open a can of worms) what are the most common observed problems with Bushmasters?
BushmasterFanBoy
07-15-08, 21:12
In the interest of curiosity (and hopefully not to open a can of worms) what are the most common observed problems with Bushmasters?
Check out the excellent chart (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642) that M4carbine.net user, Rob_S put together.
ArmedSuspect
07-15-08, 21:42
i guess that if only milspec will cut it i need to rethink my life. i'll start by sending back my SS barrels because it's not parkerized under the FSB.
seriously, milspec don't mean all that much. did you think that the milspec jungle boot was the best thing ever? my feet still hurt thinking about them. what about the milspec HMMWV seats? there is a fine piece of comfort. did you run out and buy them for your new toyota? chow hall food is milspec too and state side it blows chunks, let alone what you get when your deployed. i don't try to find a place to eat that has that crap "cause it's what the Marines eat". oh, and BCG's are milspec. ever know a guy who got action while wearing them?
the military has given us lots of great things but that's not to say that the private sector can't do it better. the "hype" that colt is the best thing ever made just don't hold water with me. i'm not trying to say it's junk, i know it's not, it costs too much but it's not junk. i just like to spend my hard earned cash on better products.
true i will never buy a factory Bushmaster ever again, i can build a much better rifle tuned for MY wants and needs. for most folks Bushy is a great product and holds up well over time.
I hate to break this to you but you have no idea what you are talking about. My company purchased 500 carbines for use in theater. As is typical the selection was driven by bean counters and availability. The carbines that we have are crap. It's more than just an occasional this or that. Consistently, all carbines had bolt carrier keys that were not staked or staked like shit. Castle nuts, were not staked and this led to eventual loosening of the lower receiver extensions. The YHM BUIS sights that were made exclusively for BM and sold on the package are garbage and way overpriced. When I needed to get replacements they charged us a premium because their agreement with YHM prevented them from selling to us directly. The extractor spring and inserts were also incorrect.
When the YHM free-floating rail system was installed they used Loc-tite and overtightened them. Now when I have to remove them I need a heat gun to break them loose. I could go on but there is no need. I have seen enough and worked on enough of them to know that w/o doing additional work and checking them out they aren't reliable.
Bushmaster continues to sell them because the typical arm chair commando has no clue. They punch paper with them on the weekends and probably have never carried one for serious social purposes.
As for Noveske, LMT and others they almost always put out a good product and if there is an issue they get on it right away and fix it.
As for malfunctions- Not only have I seen numerous bolt carrier keys come loose during shooting, but my T/L had a catastrophic failure when his bolt sheared at the cam lug hole during a firefight. So yeah they are crap and anyone who thinks different should come on over and bring his Bushy with him.
to the op, keep the Bushmaster, shoot it and love it.
sure it may seem like Bushy has "a lot" of defects but let's put this in perspective............
in 2005 Bushy put out just over 65,000 rifles. the next closest AR manufacturer was DPMS with just under 22,000. from there it spirals down very quickly, making most other AR manufacturers seem like custom shops. now with that level of production how do things stack up? i wonder what the FAIL % rate is at some of these places?
http://www.shootingindustry.com/Pages/SpecRep4.html#longgun
Bushmaster is a good company with top quality customer service. sure you may need to re-do the gas key but most of us here shoot more than the average guy (well i do) and he'll never know that it's not done properly so what's the big deal. of all of the Bushy rifles i've sold (gun shop) and own i only know of 1 that has had any malfunction. the sight post was canted, that was a quick and easy fix. we had it back in a week with a NEW barrel. even the highly respected LMT has put out some canted FSB's.
to me it's kinda like this.....you are not going to take a factory stock truck (insert your brand) and win the Baja 1000. so why do you expect to buy a factory stock rifle and win a 1000yd competition?
colt = lowest bid with production capability that's all it is! it's a government contract, nothing more. if any other company would have "won" the contract then their rifles would be made to "exact" mil spec. (well the ones for the mil/leo)
BTW- most of the things that you are referring to as Milspec are actually not Milspec, nor does the term apply.
i guess that if only milspec will cut it i need to rethink my life. i'll start by sending back my SS barrels because it's not parkerized under the FSB.
seriously, milspec don't mean all that much. did you think that the milspec jungle boot was the best thing ever? my feet still hurt thinking about them. what about the milspec HMMWV seats? there is a fine piece of comfort. did you run out and buy them for your new toyota? chow hall food is milspec too and state side it blows chunks, let alone what you get when your deployed. i don't try to find a place to eat that has that crap "cause it's what the Marines eat". oh, and BCG's are milspec. ever know a guy who got action while wearing them?
the military has given us lots of great things but that's not to say that the private sector can't do it better. the "hype" that colt is the best thing ever made just don't hold water with me. i'm not trying to say it's junk, i know it's not, it costs too much but it's not junk. i just like to spend my hard earned cash on better products.
true i will never buy a factory Bushmaster ever again, i can build a much better rifle tuned for MY wants and needs. for most folks Bushy is a great product and holds up well over time.
ArmedSuspect
07-15-08, 22:27
i never said i wanted to walk into combat with a factory Bushy. i never said Bushy puts out a better rifle than colt. Bushmaster sells to the public who, as a general rule, will never need most of the things that we do/did. hell we paid for and used as much of our own shit as we could get away with. if i could have used a Noveske or LaRue i would have. i've seen my share of issue weapons "crash", mostly in the rear (the M249 shit fest is another story). we did what we could and got by with what we had. that sucks that you had issues with Bushy, again not my first choice for a combat weapon either.
what's a new colt selling for these days? at or near $1200 i believe. if i'm not going to use it for anything other than punching holes in paper i'll spend $800/$900 on a Bushy or some other brand. if it's going to be a service weapon and my life is on the line it's going to be the best that money can buy. that, my friend, is not a colt.
there are lots of guns i can't stand but very few times will i come out and openly bash a guy for buying one of them. that may be all he can afford. shit, he's buying guns we should be telling him good job. he could be out giving his money to Obama.
we're all on the same team i just want to drive a ford not the chevy
I'd also vote for the Charles Daly D-M4LE, but mainly because that's what I ended up buying. One thing I noticed while sighting the thing in was that it threw the empty shell casings all into a 10 inch circle, not that it means anything. I was just amazed that it so consistently threw the spent shells in the same place. No other gun I have does that. My handguns throw spent shells in about a 10 foot circle.
Anyway, my advice to go for the D-M4LE is not based on experience. It's based on its feature set and the universally glowing reviews I've seen on it. It looks to me like Charles Daly is trying to buy their market share right now. I expect that their guns will go up in price in the future.
I think you missed the whole point of my reply. Let me sum it up briefly.
1. Bushmasters are crap. They should a real QA/QC and fix the problems that are well known with their guns instead of cutting corners.
2. Their customer service does suck and have contacted them several times in regards to issues that came about and they really didn't give a crap.
3. I have never said that Colt is best thing on the planet, but they do build a good product. As a matter of fact none of my carbines are Colt.
4. Though someone may purchase a carbine or rifle just to "punch paper" you never know when the SHTF and you may be forced to do more.
5. They knowingly sold weapons to my company as they have with others as well as P.D's, etc.. that were not up to snuff. That shows me that they really don't care about their reputation. I also don't believe that anyone was bashing his purchase of a BM, but rather BM itself.
i never said i wanted to walk into combat with a factory Bushy. i never said Bushy puts out a better rifle than colt. Bushmaster sells to the public who, as a general rule, will never need most of the things that we do/did. hell we paid for and used as much of our own shit as we could get away with. if i could have used a Noveske or LaRue i would have. i've seen my share of issue weapons "crash", mostly in the rear (the M249 shit fest is another story). we did what we could and got by with what we had. that sucks that you had issues with Bushy, again not my first choice for a combat weapon either.
what's a new colt selling for these days? at or near $1200 i believe. if i'm not going to use it for anything other than punching holes in paper i'll spend $800/$900 on a Bushy or some other brand. if it's going to be a service weapon and my life is on the line it's going to be the best that money can buy. that, my friend, is not a colt.
there are lots of guns i can't stand but very few times will i come out and openly bash a guy for buying one of them. that may be all he can afford. shit, he's buying guns we should be telling him good job. he could be out giving his money to Obama.
we're all on the same team i just want to drive a ford not the chevy
is my LaRue upper milspec? what about the LMT i have on backorder? how about the Noveske i plan to pick up before the election? nope, not milspec at all but all of them better than my issue M16 and M4's.
It is fantastic to go over the mil-standard, but not below. The purpose of the TDP is to establish a baseline that is not to be gone below.
if a product is junk it'll sink, if not we would be stuck with pinto's. try to make 65,000 anything and not get a few wrong. Colt gets shit wrong too.
Actually no. Most owners of AR's never shoot them. All guns run 100% sitting in the safe.
Every manufacturer gets something wrong. What it is about is consistancy and following a standard. Does Colt incorrectly stake each and every gas key and castle nut? No they do not. Does BM? Yes they do.
what pistol do you shoot? an M9? you think that is the "be all end all" side arm? it's milspec. i can't tell you how many thousands of rounds i've put through M9's and i will never own one. my USP's and glocks are better.
don't forget this is still America (until november) and we are free to buy what it is that makes each of us happy. i don't hate colt, i just don't buy into the hype.
The M9 is a dog IMHO, but is apples and oranges to the discussion we are having. There are not 500 clones of the M9 being made by 100 companies (like there are of the AR15).
Remember, that it is NOT about blindly following a Govt spec, it is about understanding what makes a good, reliable fighting gun. Most people seem to not get this and it baffles me.
C4
In the interest of curiosity (and hopefully not to open a can of worms) what are the most common observed problems with Bushmasters?
Here is a short list for you:
1. Canted FSB.
2. Tight chambers.
3. Gas keys coming loose.
4. Castle nuts coming loose.
5. Bolts breaking
C4
i guess that if only milspec will cut it i need to rethink my life. i'll start by sending back my SS barrels because it's not parkerized under the FSB.
seriously, milspec don't mean all that much. did you think that the milspec jungle boot was the best thing ever? my feet still hurt thinking about them. what about the milspec HMMWV seats? there is a fine piece of comfort. did you run out and buy them for your new toyota? chow hall food is milspec too and state side it blows chunks, let alone what you get when your deployed. i don't try to find a place to eat that has that crap "cause it's what the Marines eat". oh, and BCG's are milspec. ever know a guy who got action while wearing them?
the military has given us lots of great things but that's not to say that the private sector can't do it better. the "hype" that colt is the best thing ever made just don't hold water with me. i'm not trying to say it's junk, i know it's not, it costs too much but it's not junk. i just like to spend my hard earned cash on better products.
true i will never buy a factory Bushmaster ever again, i can build a much better rifle tuned for MY wants and needs. for most folks Bushy is a great product and holds up well over time.
I think you lack the understanding of what the TDP does and standards put forward. For some reason, you seem to think that we (or just me) believe that the mil-standard is the end all be all. It isn't. It is just a baseline. The sad thing about it is that VERY few companies come anywhere near this very low set of standards.
As a general plinker, I think BM, RRA, DPMS, Stag are perfectly fine (as they will get shot very little). This forum though is geared more towards the defensive minded civy that attends a lot of training schools, LE and Military. For them, second best or "as good as" just won't cut it.
C4
i never said i wanted to walk into combat with a factory Bushy. i never said Bushy puts out a better rifle than colt. Bushmaster sells to the public who, as a general rule, will never need most of the things that we do/did. hell we paid for and used as much of our own shit as we could get away with. if i could have used a Noveske or LaRue i would have. i've seen my share of issue weapons "crash", mostly in the rear (the M249 shit fest is another story). we did what we could and got by with what we had. that sucks that you had issues with Bushy, again not my first choice for a combat weapon either.
what's a new colt selling for these days? at or near $1200 i believe. if i'm not going to use it for anything other than punching holes in paper i'll spend $800/$900 on a Bushy or some other brand. if it's going to be a service weapon and my life is on the line it's going to be the best that money can buy. that, my friend, is not a colt.
there are lots of guns i can't stand but very few times will i come out and openly bash a guy for buying one of them. that may be all he can afford. shit, he's buying guns we should be telling him good job. he could be out giving his money to Obama.
we're all on the same team i just want to drive a ford not the chevy
I would suggest that you do a little more digging and understand the differences between AR's. It is not a Ford VS Chevy thing as they are not equals. It is more a Porsche 911 VS Ford Pinto.
I also do not buy into the "it is just for plinking so who cares." Deep down everyone that buys this type of weapon has in their back of mind the thought of using it to defends what matters most to them. If all they intended to do with their gun is punch paper, why not just buy a bolt gun? They are cheaper and will be more accurate.
The other mistake that most new AR's buyers make is the belief that high quality AR's are way out of their price range. Reality is that you can buy an LMT upper, lower, bcg, ch and hg's for under $1k! Most BM's, RRA, etc generally hand out in the $850-$950 range. So why not spend the extra $50-$100 and get a far superior weapon???
C4
If you're limited to the budget constraint that would lead you to a Bushmaster, there are much better options, from building to buying another manufacturer's complete rifle, for the same price or just slightly higher.
I bought a Bushmaster plain-Jane A2 HBAR recently as a general-purpose paper-puncher/range practice weapon. That was before I had thoroughly digested all the information on this site.
I haven't had the chance to shoot it yet (or even do a field strip/cleaning), but from reading the pointers contained on site it would seem prudent to insure that all the necessary staking has been properly executed. And replacement of certain critical parts (BCG, etc) should be considered, in the long term at least.
I realize that this site is aimed more toward the carbine user, but presumably the information would be applicable to rifle-length weapons also.
I bought a Bushmaster plain-Jane A2 HBAR recently as a general-purpose paper-puncher/range practice weapon. That was before I had thoroughly digested all the information on this site.
I haven't had the chance to shoot it yet (or even do a field strip/cleaning), but from reading the pointers contained on site it would seem prudent to insure that all the necessary staking has been properly executed. And replacement of certain critical parts (BCG, etc) should be considered, in the long term at least.
I realize that this site is aimed more toward the carbine user, but presumably the information would be applicable to rifle-length weapons also.
If your BM was mine, I would get the gas key staked for certain and then just buy a second bolt (as these break on all weapons). Other than that, just go out and punch some holes.
C4
i guess that if only milspec will cut it i need to rethink my life. i'll start by sending back my SS barrels because it's not parkerized under the FSB.
seriously, milspec don't mean all that much. did you think that the milspec jungle boot was the best thing ever? my feet still hurt thinking about them. what about the milspec HMMWV seats? there is a fine piece of comfort. did you run out and buy them for your new toyota? chow hall food is milspec too and state side it blows chunks, let alone what you get when your deployed. i don't try to find a place to eat that has that crap "cause it's what the Marines eat". oh, and BCG's are milspec. ever know a guy who got action while wearing them?
the military has given us lots of great things but that's not to say that the private sector can't do it better. the "hype" that colt is the best thing ever made just don't hold water with me. i'm not trying to say it's junk, i know it's not, it costs too much but it's not junk. i just like to spend my hard earned cash on better products.
true i will never buy a factory Bushmaster ever again, i can build a much better rifle tuned for MY wants and needs. for most folks Bushy is a great product and holds up well over time.
I think Grant and Iraq pretty much covered it, but...
Jungle boots may not be the best boots goin, but real mil spec boots are far better then the cheap asian manufactured crap jungle boots out there. ( I wore nothing but Jungles back in the day, even in the snow)
Humvee seats may not be the best seats around, but they are made to a standard, don't know who the seat equivlent to BM is, but I'm sure they wouldn't hold up.
I think you see my point.
BTW, I worked for yet naother company that was the recipient of BM "quality".
Bob
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