View Full Version : Travis Haley on Airsoft
Interesting conversation on the rift between Airsoft and well, us, I agree to a point, but I don't think that Airsoft will ever compare to real training or the military experience. Please discuss amoungst yourselves
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqq_V1Uk_-w
Boba Fett v2
04-20-15, 10:24
Airsoft, for some, is merely a role-playing fantasy. You get to dress up and play war, but without the commitment and the opportunity to return to the relative safety of your home at the end of the day. I equate it to those guys and girls who fancy participating in battle re-enactment. I can see why people might be drawn to such an activity, but most like the idea of simulated combat rather than risking their lives in actual combat.
ETA: I'm referring to those who do not utilize airsoft as a professional training tool to further enhance individual and team capability, but those who view it more or less as a weekend recreational activity. Just had to get that out there before I get steamrolled for being a "real steel" shooter snob.
KalashniKEV
04-20-15, 10:49
Airsoft is, and will always be, riduculous.
Tactical celebrities are coming around on it because they realize that the market is HUGE and there is a TON of money to be made off of these kiddos.
http://cdn5.gunssavelives.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Screen-Shot-2015-01-14-at-3.21.39-AM.png
ramairthree
04-20-15, 11:40
Airsoft is, and will always be, riduculous.
Tactical celebrities are coming around on it because they realize that the market is HUGE and there is a TON of money to be made off of these kiddos.
Just like they realized there was money in training non SOF military.
And then in training LE and other civilians that like the kit, gear, etc.
The primary difference between an airsoft kiddo and adult civilian at the range in his plate carriers, crye, and kit and many others in the gun community is:
their stuff costs more
their stuff is lethal
they probably pay their own rent and have been laid
Airsoft does force on force training cheaper than simunitions while retaining manual of arms.
Airsoft can be gamed just like anything, but it can be used well too. I'd bet on someone that goes to the range and plays airsoft over someone who just goes to the range any day.
And I don't play airsoft.
I think the one issue with betting is I knew some airsoft guys they play airsoft the same way they play COD or other games you can respawn :)
one downside to some of those guys playing they dont mind taking insane risks and that is now there mindset and why they get tagged so much !
I think it could be fun to play around much like paintball was with less mess and better guns but dont have the time or money to get into it and the other side is some of the folks take it to real and to serious :) something about spending thousands on toy guns and playing games and being so over board about it is kinda a turn off somehow to me where you can just go dink around ? for that money would rathe have fun shooting a old washing machine or whatever at dumping grounds :)
MountainRaven
04-20-15, 13:54
Airsoft is no different than any other game: It is a wargame. Unlike football or chess, it involves dressing up in camouflage, using toys that look like real guns, utilizing cover and concealment (understanding that what constitutes cover in airsoft would not with real firearms), and running around hills and forests.
I don't airsoft, either. But I used to and I still have some airsoft "guns" that I use for doing the sort of training that I cannot safely do with a real firearm (like getting into and out of shooting positions like supine and prone in my own home). I could buy blueguns for such things, but I already have the airsoft... and they have functioning safeties/selector switches, unlike blueguns.
wildcard600
04-20-15, 17:20
I remember back when people used to say the same things about paintball.
i miss playing paintball. :(
i miss playing paintball. :(
I switched from paintball to airsoft. Don't have to worry about cleaning paint off of gear, breaking paintballs in my marker etc. The only thing I really dislike about airsoft is the way "real-steel only" shooters constantly look down those who play on the weekends. In the end it is really no different than those who play paintball in the woods. It's an activity played for fun. Yeah there are those who take it waaay to seriously but they get weeded out pretty quickly. Speedball/ tournament paintball is a different animal altogether.
I have done the full spectrum of airsoft stuff - disorganized goofing around to hilarious role playing scenario stuff, and actually regimented useful training. Understand the caveats, and it's a really high value training tool for how much money is spent. For entertainment, it's still tons cheaper than paintball, and actually is still a really useful tactical gear validation tool if you're willing to take that part of it seriously. I learned more about how to set up and run a plate carrier kit in a handfull of weekends airsofting than I ever did from multiple predeployment workups.
Another side of it is that airsoft is actually the only window to gun culture available in some forgone nations, which really is half the missing context from that Costa photo op. The fact that it is a large market is something that the entire 2A community should be getting behind, as this is one of the few ways to keep the NRA membership from graying and becoming irrelvant.
As someone who played paintball from "backyard ball" to "fo realz" with a scenario team, shoots real guns, attends real tactical training courses, and also currently plays airsoft on the side....
I switched from paintball to airsoft. Don't have to worry about cleaning paint off of gear, breaking paintballs in my marker etc. The only thing I really dislike about airsoft is the way "real-steel only" shooters constantly look down those who play on the weekends. In the end it is really no different than those who play paintball in the woods. It's an activity played for fun. Yeah there are those who take it waaay to seriously but they get weeded out pretty quickly. Speedball/ tournament paintball is a different animal altogether.
Oh, yes. Paintball cleanup... the smell... AUGH! Especially sweaty and after sitting in a car for a couple days. I'll never go back to paintball on that point alone. :laugh:
As far as "real steel" shooters...
1) I f***ing hate the term "real steel". I mean where the hell did that even come from? Personally I feel like it sort of trivializes the difference between a real firearm and the toy that goes pewpewpew. I don't know... just something that irks me about it.
2) The real steel shooters get all snobby because of the morons. You've got the wannabe JSOC crowd conga-lining around at high port acting like they've "been there done that". You've got the "impression" crowd that stands around waaaaaaay in the back in their 10K$$ worth of gear, fires a few bursts from their ridiculously expensive gun that everything except the projectiles being fired is real on, then runs for lunch in the parking lot, God help them if they get a spec of mud on those Crye fancy pants that give them the implied right to order everyone else around. You've got the morons that haven't got a ****ing clue how to work a row of MOLLE, their gear literally hanging off them, or the ultra high speed crowd that run around C-clamping the living hell out of their rifles- I mean I'm talking "reach for the stars" level of arm-locking c-clamping going on here. And don't even get me started on the high-school level of cliquishness that puts you in a class based on your gear setup, or how much you play at a field, or whining cheater-bitches that are starting to infest a sport that's generally played more honorably than some paintball events I've been to. So yeah, there's a lot to hate. :laugh:
On the flip side, the annoying mindset that in order to be legitimate in the "real steel" shooting community you have to shun everything in the airsoft community is annoying. It's like saying people that mix their food on their plate don't know how to eat. Or like the fuds that can't wrap their minds around the fact that there could be something better than the gawd awmahty nahnteeneelevenn.
Here's the thing- airsoft, depending on the crowd you associate with, is not just a "kids club" if you will, populated with the offline segment of a call of duty server. There are a lot of Mil personnel joining in. Some of them rather legit trigger pullers.... And you can argue about the $$ market or whatever, most are not getting a cent and they're still there on the field slinging BBs.
I had much the same bias before coming into airsoft, and I was wrong. That being said, see point #2 up there.... :laugh:
Which brings me to another tangent:
I have done the full spectrum of airsoft stuff - disorganized goofing around to hilarious role playing scenario stuff, and actually regimented useful training. Understand the caveats, and it's a really high value training tool for how much money is spent. For entertainment, it's still tons cheaper than paintball, and actually is still a really useful tactical gear validation tool if you're willing to take that part of it seriously. I learned more about how to set up and run a plate carrier kit in a handfull of weekends airsofting than I ever did from multiple predeployment workups.
Another side of it is that airsoft is actually the only window to gun culture available in some forgone nations, which really is half the missing context from that Costa photo op. The fact that it is a large market is something that the entire 2A community should be getting behind, as this is one of the few ways to keep the NRA membership from graying and becoming irrelvant.
What he said.
If you can come to a point where you realize that the only difference between training at the range in your kit, and playing airsoft is the lethality of the weapon in your hand, it becomes a very useful "real life" T&E tool, *IF* used correctly. I mean how many people here have a rig for "SHTF" or whatnot? How many of you have gone out and actually run around in the thing for an entire day, like you would actually be doing post SHTF, with the added benefit of bunches of random people shooting at you. If you happen to have a little neighborhood defense team or whatever haul yourselves off to the local field DO whatever you're planned real-life tactics would be, and see how you fare against the random group of 18 year olds that just ambushed you from some bushes over there. If you can't keep it together in the face of a few nonlethal plastic pellets.... than that's useful real life feedback, right?
If you're gear is sloshing around on you like a water bladder on a trampoline, or you can't reach your stuff or discover other shortcomings during the day, that's real life feedback right?
And while it may not be real-life levels of adrenaline, you get that, and the anaerobic/physical element, all of which leads up to having to work yourself and your gear and your situational awareness while under the effects of those things. Which let's be fair, is (if you go at it like it's for real) a far higher level of stress than shooting off a bench or beating a timer.
And then of course there's the cheap FOF/CQB/CCW option for it, which it's great for if conducted realistically. I wish I knew some legit folk to do that with.
The thing about the JSOC wannabe crowd, or the real-life COD folks I think is what turns a lot of people's noses up- there's a difference between "acting" tactical, and "being" tactically competent. Case in point, at a recent game there was a whole line of uber tacticool guys lined up by a wall after exiting a building that they had just cleared, all eyes-forward on the next area shooting is coming from. One random asian kid with a springer pistol comes up behind them cool as a cucumber and just walks down the whole line "clik-click" Pop. clik-click. Pop. click-click. Pop.
Shot every single one of them, all the way to the front of the column before the last guy realized something was up. It was hilarious, but hello! Rear security anyone?
So, I think a lot of folks see that overstylized tacticool element and roll their eyes and write it off- kind of like when every car explodes into a massive fireball on impact with anything in the movies.
I will go out on a limb here and say that I wish to a certain extent people would take airsoft MORE seriously on a general level, and at the same time be able to differentiate between what's fun and what's stupid.
And of course, sometimes you just gotta cut loose and have a little fun, using the power of suspension of disbelief....:ph34r:
I remember back when people used to say the same things about paintball.
i miss playing paintball. :(
Remember when the Beatles were satanic rock and roll?
Comes around goes around.... hata's always gonna hate on the newest thing. Kind of like the antigunners...
Shit looks fun to me. I played a lot of paintball as a kid. Nothing serious. Just a few friends and some desert and mountains.
Plus I would like to kit up one like my work gun for some extra CQB training.
I have done the full spectrum of airsoft stuff - disorganized goofing around to hilarious role playing scenario stuff, and actually regimented useful training. Understand the caveats, and it's a really high value training tool for how much money is spent. For entertainment, it's still tons cheaper than paintball, and actually is still a really useful tactical gear validation tool if you're willing to take that part of it seriously. I learned more about how to set up and run a plate carrier kit in a handfull of weekends airsofting than I ever did from multiple predeployment workups.
Another side of it is that airsoft is actually the only window to gun culture available in some forgone nations, which really is half the missing context from that Costa photo op. The fact that it is a large market is something that the entire 2A community should be getting behind, as this is one of the few ways to keep the NRA membership from graying and becoming irrelvant.
Very thoughtful.
I've been shooting recreationally, hunting, targets, Etc. Most of my life. I love everything that shoots a projectile. From rifles and pistols to sling-shots and bows. And so I like airsoft electric rifles. Problem is I wear them out. I set up a bunch of hanging targets in my backyard and when ever I need a break I go out and practice. Wore out two airsoft rifles, and it's easier to fix an AR than it is an airsoft rifle. So I just stopped airsoft for now and I'm back to pellet rifles for now. I think airsoft is helpful for training. Everything from safety to shooting positions.
Moose-Knuckle
04-21-15, 02:55
Airsoft = Cosplay. We have had generations now grow up on shooters like MW.
When I was a kid I would have done just about anything to have some of airsoft guns they do nowadays. Plan on starting my son off in the backyard with an M4 Airsoft before he graduates to .22LR.
It's a great training tool. Obviously there are those that make it good or bad, but I'd probably enjoy playing it now. I lived in California in high school and my parents weren't anti-gun but they didn't ever take me shooting either. I played paintball with some friends a couple of times and then got into the milsim side of it because that was the closest thing I could get to guns and the military. I wish I had played airsoft instead of paintball, but I learned some good stuff there that actually has applied to my time in the Army.
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Plus I would like to kit up one like my work gun for some extra CQB training.
That is exactly what I'd like to do also. I think it would be a worth while investment to have an airsoft duplicate.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=87uj5_2hEGk (Travis Haley/airsoft)
These look pretty legit, I would like to have one to match my SCAR plus I'm sure my kids would have a blast. Three of us shooting real ammo adds up quick.
It's a great training tool. Obviously there are those that make it good or bad, but I'd probably enjoy playing it now. I lived in California in high school and my parents weren't anti-gun but they didn't ever take me shooting either. I played paintball with some friends a couple of times and then got into the milsim side of it because that was the closest thing I could get to guns and the military. I wish I had played airsoft instead of paintball, but I learned some good stuff there that actually has applied to my time in the Army.
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There's a cqb airsoft place called Power Edge, if I recall correctly, in Kaimuki. I went there a few times in my youth and last I checked, it's still there. Check it out if you get a chance, then eat at Big City Diner across the street after :)
That is exactly what I'd like to do also. I think it would be a worth while investment to have an airsoft duplicate.
At one point I had this for both of my rifles - unfortunately I've become too much of an up-to-date KAC connoisseur to have every piece keep up - but I do have stuff that's close still. Just haven't done much with airsoft stuff lately, starting to miss it.
I do actually see airsoft as a good way for some people who want to collect exact period clones of stuff to collect - ridicule this as safe queen curating (and the matching uniforms as cosplay) all you want, but if we have a 0.45% participation rate in the military experience, this is one of the few ways veterans of my generation will actually be remembered and understood with any degree of perspective, and the sacrifices of heroes who have served remembered by something other than a news media and entertainment industry that is too bent on a political correctness and in-vogue agendas.
BoringGuy45
04-22-15, 00:08
I think a lot of the aversion to airsoft by many gun owners and/or real operators is because of the major pain in the ass they are on the internet, and because they often think their toys are real. We've had a number of kids come into our store asking our gunsmith to fix their airsoft guns; they always claim that, aside from shooting airsoft BBs as opposed to live rounds, their airsoft gun is EXACTLY the same as the real thing. These 15 year old kids also go onto shooting forums and try to give advice about real guns and tactics based on their airsoft games and equipment. I also find it ridiculous that some of these guns cost as much, if not more than the gun of which they are a replica.
That said, I played paintball when I was a kid, and as much fun as that was, I can see why airsoft is so popular: While the guns are often about the same price, the ammo is much MUCH cheaper than paintballs, and it's much less messy. Nothing wrong about kids playing soldier; it's healthier than just sitting in front of the XBox playing Call of Duty all day.
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