View Full Version : Standalone barrel that's 4150 or better, HPT and MPI?
In writing something up for my site, I was struck by the relatively small number of barrels available that are 100% HPT/MPI yet are also available as a standalone part without the upper at least.
LMT is the obvious first stop in quality barrels, but they only sell them as part of a complete upper these days. Same goes for Noveske.
Either way, if you deduct the cost of a CMT upper, the barrel alone would be about $385 ($485 complete upper - $100 CMT upper price = $385 barrel).
CMMG barrels are $250-$300 and they say they are MPI (although I think they're only batch) and no mention of HPT.
Sabre Defence barrels, while a good quality barrel, are batch HPT/MPI.
And we all know that BM, RRA, etc. only batch test, if at all, their barrels.
So is there any option for a standalone barrel that is HPT and MPI?
MSTN sells LMT barrels they are $300 ea 10.5", 14.5" and 16".
I bought 10.5" and 14.5" few days ago. I guess they use the LMT uppers for their builds.
Wow, $300 for an LMT barrel? Does that come with FSB, nut, delta ring, and spring?
Strangely, that would make an LMT complete upper less barrel $185?
The barrels came with FSB and barrel nut. I bought them as spare barrels for my 10.5 and 14.5" LMT uppers. I like to stock up on parts. :D
I was trying to do the same thing Rob buy quality chrome lined barrel but I didn't want to spend the $$ for LMT uppers since I already had few of them so this was the best route to take.
I think the LMT upper receivers sell in the neighborhood of $150 the remaining $35 would cover the gas tube, delta ring and spring.
In writing something up for my site, I was struck by the relatively small number of barrels available that are 100% HPT/MPI yet are also available as a standalone part without the upper at least.
LMT is the obvious first stop in quality barrels, but they only sell them as part of a complete upper these days. Same goes for Noveske.
Either way, if you deduct the cost of a CMT upper, the barrel alone would be about $385 ($485 complete upper - $100 CMT upper price = $385 barrel).
CMMG barrels are $250-$300 and they say they are MPI (although I think they're only batch) and no mention of HPT.
Sabre Defence barrels, while a good quality barrel, are batch HPT/MPI.
And we all know that BM, RRA, etc. only batch test, if at all, their barrels.
So is there any option for a standalone barrel that is HPT and MPI?
Let's first talk about how many barrel makers are making barrels that follow the .Gov spec (MIL-B-11595E). Here is the short list:
Sabre Defense
BCM
LMT
Colt
Noveske N4
Companies that use vanilla 4150:
BM
CD
ADS
DD
Of the companies use the mil-spec 4150, only the following ones HPT/MPI every barrel:
BCM
LMT
Colt
Noveske N4
Now of these, which ones will sell stripped barrels? There is only one:
BCM
C4
Wow, $300 for an LMT barrel? Does that come with FSB, nut, delta ring, and spring?
Strangely, that would make an LMT complete upper less barrel $185?
Just as an FYI, $300 for an LMT barrel (with a FSB) is not a good deal. MSTN is basically getting what he paid for the ENTIRE LMT upper by just sell the barrel and then turning around and making another $100-$200 off the upper.
C4
Check with Denny but I think his Operator barrels meet all of your specifications. Supply though sometimes is an issue.
blacktail 8541
07-14-08, 23:54
The OPERATOR is a Dennys Guns/GTS exclusive.
THIS PACKAGE INCLUDES THE BARREL AND GAS TUBE AND DELTA RING ASSEMBLY
The barrel is a 16.1 INCH Mid Length gas. The blanks are Rockcreek(Mike Rock). The barrel steel is 4150 Chrome Vanadium, full auto rated.
These barrels are fully chrome lined, bore and chamber by US Chrome, who does Colt and most other top line tier one manufacturers barrels
1:7 twist.
MP tested.
Proprietary profile, mid weight with a slight taper from chamber to the gas block.
Weight of barrel: 2.5 Lbs approx.
M4 barrel extensions.
F front sight, pinned.
5.56 NATO chamber.
Barrels will be parked under the front sight base.
Threaded 1/2X28(standard M16 thread) A2 flash hider included.
Standard barrel nut will be installed. Delta assembly will not be included as many of you will be using rail systems and I dont want to add $$$ for parts you might not use. They are available as an option. Same with the Middy gas tube.
Anyone know if GTS's barrels are HPT?
Call and ask Denny.
I emailed Mike Rock and he replied he just supplied Denny with blanks, and Denny does the rest. He's not sure if Denny HPT's them and/or if every barrel is tested or just batch tested.
Don't call though unless you've got some spare time on your hands. Denny's a talker......;)
Check with Denny but I think his Operator barrels meet all of your specifications. Supply though sometimes is an issue.
They do not.
C4
They do not.
C4
Where don't they?
Where don't they?
HPT.
C4
Grant, thanks for narrowing the list down to 1. :) Very informative thread.
ok noob question - I had always thought that 4150 is milspec.:confused: So whats the diff between a milspec 4150 and vanilla 4150? So basically guys like CD do not really offer milspec barrel then?
Paladin4415
07-15-08, 20:42
This is from CD's website. It says they use the right steel, but no mention of HPT or MPI.
D-M4LE Carbine Upper Assembly
Item No.: CDDXU-M4LE
Caliber: 5.56mm NATO
Barrel Length: 16"
Rifiling Twist: 1x7
MSRP: $619
* Chrome lined 4150 barrel, (MIL-B-11595E, CrMoV Grade) with M-203 mounting groove
* M4 Feedramps
* Forged "F" front sight base with bayonet lug & rubber coated sling swivel
* T-Marked Flattop upper
* A2 "Birdcage" flash hider
* Oval Double Heat-Shield M4 forend
what about shaw barrels i got a 4150 1:7 chrome lined M4 16 inch ,how do the doit tested or not
Grant, thanks for narrowing the list down to 1. :) Very informative thread.
ok noob question - I had always thought that 4150 is milspec.:confused: So whats the diff between a milspec 4150 and vanilla 4150? So basically guys like CD do not really offer milspec barrel then?
You are welcome.
MANY manufacturers use 4150 with the SOLE purpose in trying to make you the consumer believe that they are getting the best barrel steel available. If the steel does not follow this spec: MIL-B-11595E it is not the same grade/quality.
C4
This is from CD's website. It says they use the right steel, but no mention of HPT or MPI.
D-M4LE Carbine Upper Assembly
Item No.: CDDXU-M4LE
Caliber: 5.56mm NATO
Barrel Length: 16"
Rifiling Twist: 1x7
MSRP: $619
* Chrome lined 4150 barrel, (MIL-B-11595E, CrMoV Grade) with M-203 mounting groove
* M4 Feedramps
* Forged "F" front sight base with bayonet lug & rubber coated sling swivel
* T-Marked Flattop upper
* A2 "Birdcage" flash hider
* Oval Double Heat-Shield M4 forend
I believe CD said their barrels are MPI but not HPT, which is somewhat useless IMHO.
Do they sell barrels alone? I didn't think they were planning on doing that.
what about shaw barrels i got a 4150 1:7 chrome lined M4 16 inch ,how do the doit tested or not
They most likely do not follow the MIL-B-11595E standard. They are also most likely not HPT or MP'd as Shaw does not do that at their facility.
C4
I am pretty sure you can get barrels like what you are looking for in various lenghts at Specialized Armament, but you are going to pay a premium for them.
You are welcome.
MANY manufacturers use 4150 with the SOLE purpose in trying to make you the consumer believe that they are getting the best barrel steel available. If the steel does not follow this spec: MIL-B-11595E it is not the same grade/quality.
C4
A good reference about this can be found here:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37
BravoCompanyUSA posted that thread and it is very useful.
wow interesting! so Colt M4 barrels and FN M16 barrels appear to use CMV instead of 4150. However BCM stated that ORD 4150, ORD 4150 Resulfurized, and CMV can all be considered as milspec.
wow interesting! so Colt M4 barrels and FN M16 barrels appear to use CMV instead of 4150. However BCM stated that ORD 4150, ORD 4150 Resulfurized, and CMV can all be considered as milspec.
Correct. There are 3 steels that that are considered GTG for barrel making. CMV, 4150ORD and 4150SUL.
The reason why you do not see more companies use this barrel steel is because it is rare and expensive. It is much easier to just use common 4140 or 4150.
C4
thanks grant. I know now why 4150 is not necessarily milspec. Close but not quite.
I have learned much, thanks to this forum, from my "bushmaster is just same as colt but cheaper" days... :eek:
Correct. There are 3 steels that that are considered GTG for barrel making. CMV, 4150ORD and 4150SUL.
The reason why you do not see more companies use this barrel steel is because it is rare and expensive. It is much easier to just use common 4140 or 4150.
C4the shaw barrel i got is CVM 4150 I remember reading on here that was the way to go I thought they MPI'ed thanks for giving me the scoop on that Grant:D
HPT.
C4
Resurrecting this thread, you are correct.
Just got off the phone with Frank White who machines the Operator blanks for Denny. Frank confirmed barrels are MPI'd/magnafluxed after test firing using std pressure rounds. He also confirmed the steel is CMV.
Resurrecting this thread, you are correct.
Just got off the phone with Frank White who machines the Operator blanks for Denny. Frank confirmed barrels are MPI'd/magnafluxed after test firing using std pressure rounds. He also confirmed the steel is CMV.
Standard rounds do not cut it. They have to be high pressure rounds.
A lot of companies play the "shell game" and about the only way to be sure that the company is doing thing per the TDP is to have the manufacturer issue a detailed and very direct statement as to the chemical composition of their barrels & bolts, the certifications they require, the type of HPT done, what stage it is done, the type of MPI done, the MPI standard followed, the MPI acceptance and rejection criteria their company issues.
C4
As an aside, do you have any idea what the reject rates are on the HPT test results for the companies (Colt, LMT) that HPT their CMV mil-spec steel barrels?
I'm assuming it's less than 1%, but I'm curious when you start with high grade steel to begin with, what the reject rate would be.
Charles Daly
07-21-08, 22:53
Since this thread has been resurrected, I want to clarify the record.
The barrel steel in our D-M4LE is MIL-B-11595E, CrMoV Grade. (Some call this CMV for short.) ((ETA: This is not "vanilla" 4150.))
When we first started selling our guns we mistakenly were under the impression that all 4150 barrels were the same. Later, as I've learned more, I came to understand that was not the case.
All of our D-M4LE barrels are MPI'd and batch HPT. We are evaluating doing HPT on all barrels but as of today we still only batch HPT.
I hope this clears up any confusion as to the composition of our barrel and the testing we currently do.
Sincerely,
Since this thread has been resurrected, I want to clarify the record.
The barrel steel in our D-M4LE is MIL-B-11595E, CrMoV Grade. (Some call this CMV for short.) ((ETA: This is not "vanilla" 4150.))
When we first started selling our guns we mistakenly were under the impression that all 4150 barrels were the same. Later, as I've learned more, I came to understand that was not the case.
All of our D-M4LE barrels are MPI'd and batch HPT. We are evaluating doing HPT on all barrels but as of today we still only batch HPT.
Sincerely,
Thanks for contributing. Would you be willing to discuss your rationale for performing batch testing vs testing every unit?
Out of the samples of CMV you've tested to date, have any failed your HPT test? If so, what percentage of all batches tested?
Lastly, would you be willing to share where you source your steel from, and whether or not you mfg the barrels or do you outsource them?
Charles Daly
07-22-08, 01:38
Thanks for contributing. Would you be willing to discuss your rationale for performing batch testing vs testing every unit?
Out of the samples of CMV you've tested to date, have any failed your HPT test? If so, what percentage of all batches tested?
Lastly, would you be willing to share where you source your steel from, and whether or not you mfg the barrels or do you outsource them?
Some of this I will have to answer when I get into the office later today.
Our rationale for batch vs individual testing is primarily one of cost and loss of productivity. I mentioned in another thread that if we could raise prices something like 3-5% we would be able to cover the cost. It would slow us down considerably, but we could do it.
For now I can also tell you that we buy our barrels from either Wilson or Shaw, depending on the build. We specify what material to use and we have certified Material Data Sheets for each specified steel.
Tomorrow I will let you know the testing results.
Thanks for your interest in CD Defense products,
Sincerely,
Appreciate your response. Looking forward to the follow up.
As I understand it, the HPT and MPI go hand in hand. The HPT is meant to put extreme stress on the part(s), and the MPI is then done to look for problems caused by this stress.
Doing one without the other does not seem to be as productive to me, although I suppose that the MPI could still find imperfections that exist even without the HPT.
CD, I'd be interested to know your rejection rates as well if you'd be willing to share. Specifically, I'd like to know if there's a higher rejection rate on the HPT barrels than on the non-tested, if records of that difference are kept.
What are your thoughts on just plain old PT? You know, a test firing with a standard 50,000 psi round, followed by the MPI/magnaflux test? I'll concede it's not a HP test, but you're still subjecting those components to 50,000 psi.
As an aside, do you have any idea what the reject rates are on the HPT test results for the companies (Colt, LMT) that HPT their CMV mil-spec steel barrels?
I'm assuming it's less than 1%, but I'm curious when you start with high grade steel to begin with, what the reject rate would be.
No idea. I do know that in the latest run of BCM barrels, Paul mentioned that he had a couple barrels fail MPI.
The issue is that each company is going to have a different opinion on what is acceptable and what is not. For instance, several years ago, a Colt barrel was MPI'd and it had flaws in it, but was released to the mass market (on the Civy side of the house).
One of the very few companies that I know of that does not accept ANY flaws is BCM.
C4
Some of this I will have to answer when I get into the office later today.
Our rationale for batch vs individual testing is primarily one of cost and loss of productivity. I mentioned in another thread that if we could raise prices something like 3-5% we would be able to cover the cost. It would slow us down considerably, but we could do it.
For now I can also tell you that we buy our barrels from either Wilson or Shaw, depending on the build. We specify what material to use and we have certified Material Data Sheets for each specified steel.
Tomorrow I will let you know the testing results.
Thanks for your interest in CD Defense products,
Sincerely,
Thanks for the honest info. It is refreshing to see a manufacturer be so truthful.
C4
What are your thoughts on just plain old PT? You know, a test firing with a standard 50,000 psi round, followed by the MPI/magnaflux test? I'll concede it's not a HP test, but you're still subjecting those components to 50,000 psi.
Details are really what matters with this stuff. There is a mil-standard way to test this and then there isn't. It is really that cut and dry.
If Rob want's to make the chart more accurate, the best way to do this is to have manufacturers answer these questions:
Have the manufacturer issue a detailed and very direct statement as to the chemical composition of their barrels & bolts, the certifications they require, the type of HPT done, what stage it is done, the type of MPI done, the MPI standard followed, the MPI acceptance and rejection criteria their company issues.
Companies that do NOT give this data, would have their MPI/HPT/Barrel Steel check marks changed.
C4
FWIW, since you already have other carbines manufactured to a lower standard than the M4LE, why not go all the way and test every bbl on your best carbine?
If you really want to sell one of the 2-4 best complete carbines,or complete upper's, then I would follow the TDP as close as I possibly could.
I hope I'm not off topic, or out of my lane, but from reading your posts, it appears you want to produce and sell the best carbine your company is capable of.
Good luck, Terry
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