storm shelter doubling as a vault

[ace4059]

The wife and I are currently starting floor plans for a new home and I want an above ground storm shelter/safe room. Since I do not want to buy another large safe and have 3 safes in the garage, I see this as prime opportunity to install a vault door so it can double as a walk in safe.

I would prefer an in ground shelter but because of the high water table and they seep water and have high humidity inside, it looks like my choices are narrowed to above ground. The plans I looked at are 12" concrete reenforced walls, 8x10 and 10x12 floor plan with a 2+ hr fire rating. A friend had one build a few years back after a large tornado wiped out his house. He has a queen sized bed inside and he just sleeps inside his safe room when bad weather is approaching for the night. He has no ventilation to his room and has to keep the door open when hes inside sleeping which I think defeats the purpose of a tornado shelter.

Now to my questions.
For those that do have walk in safes, how does one have HVAC to this room but still have the fire rating? I know they make HVAC smoke and fire shut off vents, but how well would it work? Ive only seen two walk in safes and neither one have ventilation. How does one control the humidity in a larger safe? The tornado rooms built around here just have little side vents, but Ive seen a few with regular HVAC vents.

I just want to know the best way to keep the room comfy if I have to stay inside it for the night due to bad weather, but keep from having rust problems on the guns. I prefer not to have to install a gun safe inside the safe room. What type of humidity control devices and alarms do they use for wine cellars?

Any thoughts, comments, or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

[RearwardAssist]

Just thinking out loud hear As I don't live in a tornado prone are. My initial thought would be heat and cool through the floor like an underground return air and supply. I have seen hand units that you pump every hour or so and it filters the air for particulates as well. The only way to control the humidity would be an air conditioner maybe a stand alone unit for the safe room or dehumidifier. Maybe look into how this was handled in 60s bomb shelters could put you on the right path.

[Honu]

just look at ventilation systems for bomb shelters that are made to withstand radiation and smoke ingress etc...
the ones I saw often had two systems one was often a longer draft system like a pipe going way out underground where temps are stable and then a hand and battery system to draw air in with various trap filter methods along the way and the other system was more close to the main room to vent out the current air or you could reverse the flow depending on needs
its been a while since reading those things but would be a starting point

[GH41]

Some dumb questions for the OP... What happens when you lock yourself in this safe/safe room and the weather or fire collapses your house on top of this room?? I hope you have an in swing door and the tools to dig yourself out! Why does climate control concern you?? You aren't going to have power to run it.

[Ryno12]

Is this room attached or apart of your house? If so, I would run a 6" or 8" duct (whatever is appropriately sized for the space) from your current HVAC system to supply the room. Depending on your budget, you could zone it separately from the rest of your house. I personally wouldn't screw around with a portable dehumidifier in that space. They'll add heat to the room & you have to mess around with emptying the tank.
It really depends on your overall floor plan & climate that will dictate what is necessary to keep that space conditioned.

[ace4059]

I not really looking for a "bomb shelter" or bunker. I know what ventilation you are talking about, it has a hand crank and usually some type of activated charcoal filter.

GH41,
Vault doors have a handle release on the inside. Yes, you can get the swing in doors so you are not trapped. the tornadoes Ive seen in person and on the news, havent caused the house to go up in a ball of fire. The two that came through here, there wasnt much left of the houses. Some only had concrete slabs remaining. Studies have shown that the above ground shelters that are built properly, are completely safe.

Ventilation is for comfort if you stay the night inside if there is a tornado watch or warning. Its much easier to go to sleep in the small room and not worry about the tornado sirens going off and going outside while its pouring rain to get inside a below ground shelter. Ventilation is also for the AC to dehumidify the air to keep your guns from rusting. After the tornado, then you have a small hole where the air duct use to be which allows some fresh air if you are trapped inside.

I'm curious on how people control humidity in wine cellars.

[ace4059]

Is this room attached or apart of your house? If so, I would run a 6" or 8" duct (whatever is appropriately sized for the space) from your current HVAC system to supply the room. Depending on your budget, you could zone it separately from the rest of your house. I personally wouldn't screw around with a portable dehumidifier in that space. They'll add heat to the room & you have to mess around with emptying the tank.
It really depends on your overall floor plan & climate that will dictate what is necessary to keep that space conditioned.

It will be part of the house. Most people around here that do the above ground shelters use it as either the laundry room or as a closet. I think your on the right track with not using a dehumidifier because of the small tank that would have to be emptied daily. And the silca beads will not work in a space that large.

[Ryno12]

It will be part of the house. Most people around here that do the above ground shelters use it as either the laundry room or as a closet. I think your on the right track with not using a dehumidifier because of the small tank that would have to be emptied daily. And the silca beads will not work in a space that large.

Not sure about your location & climate but if it's going to be integrated into your house, put some thought about where it will be located in the floor plan. Interior room? Exterior? North side? South side? Its specific location may play into your HVAC plan. Basic transfer grills may be sufficient with an interior location whereas you may need heating/cooling supply ducts if it's exposed to the elements on an exterior wall.

[cinco]

Is this room attached or apart of your house? If so, I would run a 6" or 8" duct (whatever is appropriately sized for the space) from your current HVAC system to supply the room. Depending on your budget, you could zone it separately from the rest of your house. I personally wouldn't screw around with a portable dehumidifier in that space. They'll add heat to the room & you have to mess around with emptying the tank.
It really depends on your overall floor plan & climate that will dictate what is necessary to keep that space conditioned.

Yep, most good above ground shelters will have an inlet (at time of order you can specify location if they are a good mnfr) for A/C and Heat. You then plum into the Storm Room your AC/Heat from an existing duct.

For firearms, you could consider a simple Job Box which you can anchor to the floor via bolts (just like a Storm Room is anchored to a concrete slab - negotiate to have it done at the time of installation). Then just a rechargeable Dehumidifier in the Job Box to keep the toys rust free. Most Storm Doors have, at a minimum, one good dead bolt - you can order on most up to three (or more on your specification).

So to get by the 1-3 deadbolts , then to be confronted with a Job Box with tamper-proof lock boxes is a tough nut to crack for average tweeker.

Really, really cool idea on the bed in the Storm Room. Jealous for sure.

[Alex V]

I will speak only from experience with walk in bank vaults. I have designed over 25 ground up bank buildings for Cap One and Chase, (I'm a registered Architect) some used 6 sided vaults and some used 5 sides vaults. All were above ground.

These vaults had two sources of ventilation, mechanical heating and AC and emergency ventilation through the vault door. The mechanical system was connected to the top of the vault through a security duct. This is an opening too small for a person to fit through, it is baffled and will not allow a reach inside either. For your second question, regarding fire, there was no code requirement for a fire damper but one can easily be installed. The problem will be autimation. In a commercial building the BAS system turns off the air movement so you will need something to turn off your HVAC system in case of a fire if that is what you require. A duct mounted smoke detector will turn off the AC and close a fire damper preventing the spread of smoke and flame through the duct. You can have a 1 hour or higher rates damper installed. A 12" concrete wall can be rated for as much as 4hours. This will be an expensive fire damper.

Also, don't forget that in the home, you are recycling air. A standard home AC system used the fact that your home is not 100% sealed to provide outside air. Every home has infiltration, this is we use a split system for your home and an air-handler for commercial application. I've done projects that require 100% outside air and you expend a lot of energy to condition that air. Of you plan to be in that room for any amount of time you will need some sort of emergency ventilation. It will have to be from a remote source since venting through the door will not help you if your house is on fire. You will need a remote intake which will have some sore of scrubber and or heat exchanger to clean and condition the air.

Onto something else tho, even with a high water table you can water proof a concrete vault. I have done parking garages and building basements in very high water tables successfully with Grace waterproofing products. It can be done.

[Tigereye]

I've heard good things about these but don't have any personal experience. http://www.valleystormshelters.com
When we built our house, we built a "man cave" that is a partial basement room that is 12x15 with concrete block walls that are poured in concrete. We had planned to build a trap door from the bedroom above it so that we could access it during storms. But, we didn't and we have to go outside to access the room.

[nova3930]

I built basically what you're talking about into my home last year. Mine is 4x8, filled reinforced concrete block with a Magnum vault door from Smith Security Safes.

I had the HVAC guys run a vent and a return in the safe with fire dampers on them. Based on my temp/humidity sensor that keeps the safe interior at about the same conditions as the rest of the house. I recently started running a dehumidifier to drop the humidity just a little more and it seems to work well. My safe sits around 45% humidity most of the time. I also ran a humidity sensor as part of the alarm system on the house. If the humidity gets above a set point, I get an email and text message alerting me.

As far as fire rating, at least with mine with the thick block walls and overall size, I think with or without the fire dampers it would still take a long time to heat the interior up. Concrete is a pretty good insulator as far as it goes, better than the damn sheetrock most free standing safes have in them anyway.


Some dumb questions for the OP... What happens when you lock yourself in this safe/safe room and the weather or fire collapses your house on top of this room?? I hope you have an in swing door and the tools to dig yourself out! Why does climate control concern you?? You aren't going to have power to run it.

Just because you're in there, does not mean you will lose power with certainty. Being miserable every time there's a tornado warning is rather foolish.

If the door doesn't swing in, a big pry bar and bottle jack is a pretty good idea, as well as having some food and water rations and making sure the neighbors know you have a storm shelter. I didn't have room for an in swing door so I have all of the above in mine....

[SilverBullet432]

I know a guy who went all out... Backup power, buried intermodal containers with their own HVAC, years worth of food, water and underground shooting range. Cant say much more. But its real.

[HardToHandle]

Checkout the FEMA storm shelter materials. I collected those when I was designing a similar project. If you use a FEMA-type approach, that may add some value to the finished product.

I also survived a fatal tornado and they are not to messed with...