View Full Version : 338 lapua better die set up
Looking for a better set up on dies other than what i have (RCBS). I would like to go with forster and possibly a Wilson seating die. problem is for one im not sure im pointed in the right direction. From what i have found redding has a collet issue for starters, but forster does not make just a neck sizing die. Some guys have told me always full length size for this gun. I dont like at all the doughnut the rcbs die puts in the neck on some of them im assuming due to the expander ball, and i would think the forstner collet type would illiminate this? Im also suspisious of the rcbs canting the neck when the expander enters which in turn would create more run out of the bullet. just want to get the most out of what i have and .010 runout on some bullets is nowhere in the least acceptable for 600 let alone 1000 yrd+ shooting. I do rotate 180 halfway through the seating. Thank you.
I use the Wilson seating dies for a few different rifles and think the world of them. I have both the micrometer top and original and both work equally well. Sinclair sells a shim kit for the original http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/reloading-dies/replacement-parts-amp-upgrades/skip-s-seater-die-shims-prod33711.aspx which give you pretty much the same seating depth control as with the micro top (micro top is a bit faster, shim kit with original seater is less $).
I like the LE Wilson seating dies. But 338 might require a big arbor press. My press isn't mounted so it's a pain in the ass when I'm seating 300 WM.
Donuts are usually from bushing dies... I hate bushing dies and will never go back to them.
I don't see that LEE has a collet neck die in 338 LP. :( If they did, I'd do a body die and then the neck die on a separate operation. Maybe a FL size with the expander ball removed and then use a 338 neck expander die?
Forstner seems to be most popular but I am thinking either way a collet style would be best?? Seems today I can tighten the loose ones ( going to resize them all) with a neck resize without the expander ball. Tightens them by about .004+. Boy I tell ya long range stuff is not for the weak. At least for now I'm only trying to pinpoint a 8"x10" plate at 1100 yards. To some that might be a big deal but others that's just getting started. I just want to get the most out of what I have. Not much worried about the cost, but more all about the end result. At times I honestly think it's the guy behind the trigger.
OP, do you turn your case necks? If you do then another option is having a custom FL die ground for your chamber. It will give you whatever amount of sizing you want/need.
I do turn the necks. I've been on to other forms so I got a little bit confused. That's where I mentioned in a previous post that I did get the necks to tighten up and probably nobody had a clue on what I was talking about. So where that came in was after I turned my necks some of the bullets were extremely loose so I ran them back through the sizing die without The expander ball. Is this an okay thing to do? It tighten them up by about .004. Some of the bullets I could actually push in by hand. I only took .002 off neck so I'm not sure why it reduced neck tension so much. They finished at .015
I ran them back through the sizing die without The expander ball. Is this an okay thing to do? It tighten them up by about .004. Some of the bullets I could actually push in by hand. I only took .002 off neck so I'm not sure why it reduced neck tension so much. They finished at .015
Two thousandths is a lot of metal, it will cause your neck tension to be less until you size that neck down.
The expander ball sizes from the inside of the neck. If you have your necks turned to a consistent neck wall thickness ( you said .015) then you can size your necks down from the outside without an expander ball. You can have your current FL dies neck reamed out to size your brass necks to the size you want, or go the bushing route (meh) or a collet die (good option if you can find one for 338 Lapua). I like using custom ground FL sizing dies for brass that I have turned the necks on because I can have them made to give me the neck tension (by this I mean how undersized the neck is relative to the bullet) and the amount of shoulder bump I want. These seem to give me the best results and I only need one die (versus a body/collet setup).
I get my FL dies made by Harrels Precision but they only do PPC and BR cases. I think that Hornady will make you a custom FL die for 338, as will Whidden Gunworks (again, I think). Either one will ask you for a few pieces of fired brass that they can take measurements off of to make you a die (or you can send them your reamer print if you have one, though I prefer to just send them three pieces of fired brass). You will need to call them to get the ball rolling and you will need to know what neck tension you want (easy to figure out, just double the thickness of your case necks and add your bullet diameter then subtract how many thousandths you want the necks undersized).
A lot of people like the collet die/body die route. It definitely has some advantages. Also, I know Lee used to make custom collet dies, not sure if they still do but you can always ask if you decide to go with a collet/body die set up versus a FL die.
Thanks Masan. I ordered an arbor press today with a gauge. So my next plan of attack is order the Wilson dies and possibly even lose my rcbs full length sizer and get a forstner. Really hope on the right road here. The rifle is a savage 110 so it's not a high dollar piece but seems to be a decent shooter I just need to do my part on prep and behind the scope to get it to it's potential. Being new to neck turning I didn't think that .002 was much out of .017 but it's always a learning process. So I guess a guys better off leaving half or a third of the neck un touched to keep thickness? What's the normal amount on a higher grade case (lapua) taken off? Also by running them back through the sizer without the expander ball will that give them a consistent tension or is going to be erratic?
If you want to accurately size your case neck from the outside I believe that you need 100% cleanup with you neck turning.
When I turn necks I use a ball micrometer to take readings on 20 random pieces of brass (same lot# though). Take a reading, twist 1/8th of a turn, take a reading, repeat. After doing twenty I usually have a good idea what the thinnest neck wall thickness is. Set up your neck turner to trim to that (for my 6mmBR Lapua brass it is almost always .0125, same for .243). This removes the minimum amount of brass while still giving ~100% cleanup.
When I said that .002 is a lot of metal, I didn't mean that you had made a mistake. I was referring to neck tension. You could have removed a half a thou and still had different neck tension than when you started.
Good call on the arbor press/wilson seater combo. Once you use one you will understand why they are they best way to seat bullets for precision.
Before you buy another FL die, try out your RCBS FL die without the expander. If it is giving you a .004 undersize then you may be good to go. Do some research to see what amount of neck tension people running the .338 Lapua like. Also, make sure that you are "squaring" your dies in the press.
http://www.sierrabullets.com/resources/x-ring-newsletter/index.cfm/xid/1/Accuracy-Loading-Tip-Squaring-Your-Dies/#loadtip1
You can also use an o-ring under your die to achieve similar results, though I would reccomend putting witness marks on your die and press as the die can slowly back out of the press when using the o-ring method (you should do this anyways, witness marks will tell you a lot about what is going on with your press).
If you are worried about the RCBS FL giving you donuts (if I am misreading your OP please correct me) then you may not be running your neck turners cutter far enough back. It needs to take about 1/32 of shoulder material with it (some people call this "kissing the shoulder"). Depending on your neck turner you should have some kind of stop you can set up to achieve this.
If you want to accurately size your case neck from the outside I believe that you need 100% cleanup with you neck turning.
When I turn necks I use a ball micrometer to take readings on 20 random pieces of brass (same lot# though). Take a reading, twist 1/8th of a turn, take a reading, repeat. After doing twenty I usually have a good idea what the thinnest neck wall thickness is. Set up your neck turner to trim to that (for my 6mmBR Lapua brass it is almost always .0125, same for .243). This removes the minimum amount of brass while still giving ~100% cleanup.
When I said that .002 is a lot of metal, I didn't mean that you had made a mistake. I was referring to neck tension. You could have removed a half a thou and still had different neck tension than when you started.
Good call on the arbor press/wilson seater combo. Once you use one you will understand why they are they best way to seat bullets for precision.
Before you buy another FL die, try out your RCBS FL die without the expander. If it is giving you a .004 undersize then you may be good to go. Do some research to see what amount of neck tension people running the .338 Lapua like. Also, make sure that you are "squaring" your dies in the press.
http://www.sierrabullets.com/resources/x-ring-newsletter/index.cfm/xid/1/Accuracy-Loading-Tip-Squaring-Your-Dies/#loadtip1
You can also use an o-ring under your die to achieve similar results, though I would reccomend putting witness marks on your die and press as the die can slowly back out of the press when using the o-ring method (you should do this anyways, witness marks will tell you a lot about what is going on with your press).
If you are worried about the RCBS FL giving you donuts (if I am misreading your OP please correct me) then you may not be running your neck turners cutter far enough back. It needs to take about 1/32 of shoulder material with it (some people call this "kissing the shoulder"). Depending on your neck turner you should have some kind of stop you can set up to achieve this.
I'll get myself a ball mic. Something amongst other things I've needed for awhile. With the rcbs fl die minus the expander I can bring them down .005 more than with the expander. One thing I did today was loaded a couple rounds (not sure why I don't wait for the proper equipment) with the cases I used without the expander. The runout on one was .008. Exactly what I'm working on getting rid of. So what I did was used my hornady concentricity tool to straighten them. Always wondered about doing that. Well what it ended up doing was loosened the neck tension back to the point of being able to push the bullet by hand. I'm thinking a lot of it had to do with annealing the cases on this batch beings I was on the 3rd firing. I have not been coming on to the neck when I turn them. I was told not to for whatever reason. I have the 21st century lathe style neck turner. Thanks for being patient and so helpful guys. I'll ask prob some silly questions but it's the only way I guess to learn. I've been reloading for 25 years but never much for the kind of accuracy I'm trying to achieve with this gun. It's just starting to consume me and I just want to get it right at "nearly" any expense. Ready sierras instructions on squaring the dies, what if you do not set the dies according to their instructions? My fl die is about the thickness of a nickel from touching the shell plate so as to just neck size.
Dan
If you are getting .005 from the rcbs I feel like that is too much.
I also use the 21st century lathe/turner. If you have the appropriate cutter (proper degree for your case shoulder) it will cut into the shoulder just enough.
I meant to put the following link in my last post but forgot. This is the continuation on squaring dies, give it a read.
http://www.sierrabullets.com/resources/x-ring-newsletter/index.cfm/xid/2/Accuracy-Loading-Tip-Squaring-Your-Dies-cont/#loadtip
I also have the base of my dies well above the shell plate and as Sierra says, this is fine. I use a set of feeler gauges to take up that space on dies that do not touch the shell holder when I square them. One of my benchrest buddys used a spare recoil lug from a rem 700 that he had ground down to be square. Just use something that you know is square (I think Sierra mentions using a washer) to allow the ram to make contact to square the die for initial set up.
Getting the hang of a ball mic is pretty easy (even easier if you spring for one with a digital display) and you will find yourself wondering "what was I doing without this thing?!"
Lastly, I remember you saying in your OP that you would rotate you case 180 degrees halfway through seating a bullet (a good trick). You will not need to worry about that when you get your Wilson seater.
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