View Full Version : Bushmaster- better 15 years ago?
I have a Bushmaster 20" A2 (standard) that I bought around 2000. Being pre-ban, it's lacking a flash suppressor and bayonet lug.
Looks like the AR market has decided that 20" barrels are for grandpas, Vietnam Vets, and losers.
Anyhow- Is this BM rifle better quality than the ones on the market today by the same company?
Looks like the AR market has decided that 20" barrels are for grandpas, Vietnam Vets, and losers.
Anyhow- Is this BM rifle better quality than the ones on the market today by the same company?
That's definitely not true, they just recognized that maybe there isn't as much utility for the 20", like their customers. But since you already have it, why not shoot and answer your own question?
NWcityguy2
04-28-15, 22:52
Since BM has been bought out and relocated to Remington's plant, and the original BM plant is now owned by Windham Weaponry, there really isn't a "same company" to compare to.
Since BM has been bought out and relocated to Remington's plant, and the original BM plant is now owned by Windham Weaponry, there really isn't a "same company" to compare to.
The Freedom Group meaning freedom from quality controls ;), Bushmaster is the new Pinto, having said that 20" barrels are still a lot of fun to have, there is something about that classic M16 look from the 80's that says bald eagles and Chuck Norris movies, shoot it and enjoy it, by the way kudo's on the name.
sourdough44
04-29-15, 03:26
I have a 16" Bushmaster that's 10+ years old. It's been lightly used but no issues. I recently got an 18" upper(BCM), then I also have 20 and 22".
I like the handiness of the lighter weight 16" barrels for general use. I has able to make it to a SD dog town on two occasions. For that I used the 20" and 22" AR's, one a custom, both with excellent triggers. It all depends on what one plans to do.
That's definitely not true, they just recognized that maybe there isn't as much utility for the 20", like their customers. But since you already have it, why not shoot and answer your own question?
Good point, but shooting the one I already own just confirms how much I like BM rifles from fifteen years ago.
The Freedom Group meaning freedom from quality controls ;), Bushmaster is the new Pinto, having said that 20" barrels are still a lot of fun to have, there is something about that classic M16 look from the 80's that says bald eagles and Chuck Norris movies, shoot it and enjoy it, by the way kudo's on the name.
I had heard that they were no longer as solid as before. I remember them being the industry giant in those great days of the early 2000's. What company has inherited that mantle, if any?
Since BM has been bought out and relocated to Remington's plant, and the original BM plant is now owned by Windham Weaponry, there really isn't a "same company" to compare to.
Is Windham Weaponry the spiritual successor to BM? Are they producing firearms of excellent quality and value?
Since BM has been bought out and relocated to Remington's plant, and the original BM plant is now owned by Windham Weaponry, there really isn't a "same company" to compare to.
Is Windham Weaponry the spiritual successor to BM? Are they producing firearms of excellent quality and value?
Bushmaster was never good. They used BS marketing and we were able to fill a niche that Colt couldn't or wouldn't. Their specs are all over the place and for everyone that works good, 3-4 don't run well.
The also counted on the fact that the average dude shoots a few hundred rounds per year. The 3% were inconsequential to them.
I had heard that they were no longer as solid as before. I remember them being the industry giant in those great days of the early 2000's. What company has inherited that mantle, if any?
I had heard that they were no longer as solid as before. I remember them being the industry giant in those great days of the early 2000's. What company has inherited that mantle, if any?
There are a lot more AR companies out there then there was in the early 2000s, hell more than there was 5 years ago, forget 10 o 15. I would say if you want a quality, name brand product, you would be looking at Colt, BCM, DD. DD probably does the most advertising of their products, while BCM is really innovating, and Colt is just colt at this point.
As far as Bushmaster goes.... I have an old Patrolman from not long after the sunset of the AWB. It has served well enough, probably over 3K through the rifle, my BCMs are far and away better rifles, better quality, finish, and shoot smoother, but the Bushmaster, hasn't been bad for what it is, but not run as hard as one of my BCMs either. My bushmaster came with a commerical stock, which has long been replaced with a mil spec one, recently returned it to factory-ish configuration, with carry handle irons, a BCM M4 stock from their site, and the carbine handguard and A2 grip. Fun range rifle and a decent back up not that everything is staked and I put a heavier buffer in it which did reduce felt recoil by a surprising amount. I would trust, but it isn't the rifle I would grab as my go to either.
Is Windham Weaponry the spiritual successor to BM? Are they producing firearms of excellent quality and value?
There is a button to multi-quote instead of creating new posts for every quote. Also, no.
Bushmaster was never good. They used BS marketing and we were able to fill a niche that Colt couldn't or wouldn't. Their specs are all over the place and for everyone that works good, 3-4 don't run well.
The also counted on the fact that the average dude shoots a few hundred rounds per year. The 3% were inconsequential to them.
This^^^
My good friend and shooting buddy has a Bushmaster that he purchased a few years ago through a law enforcement program that runs great with 4 thousand rounds through it, having said that I work at a range on weekends and have fixed my fare share of problems with them, DPMS and Bushmaster.
You asked who's top dog now and to that I would give you a range of companies doing things correctly, however, I mostly recommend building or putting together rifles, less costly. DD, BCM, Colt, LMT, Sionics, anything off of Rainier's website, KAC, Noveske, and I'm sure a few others.
3ACR_Scout
04-29-15, 23:23
As far as Bushmaster goes.... I have an old Patrolman from not long after the sunset of the AWB. It has served well enough, probably over 3K through the rifle, my BCMs are far and away better rifles, better quality, finish, and shoot smoother, but the Bushmaster, hasn't been bad for what it is, but not run as hard as one of my BCMs either.
I have one too that I bought in Nov or Dec '04, right after the sunset, and to be blunt, it turned me off from ARs for about 8 years. It functioned fine, but it was obviously not as well made as the Colts that I was used to in the military (I had just returned from Iraq and turned in my M4, so it was a pretty direct comparison). The BCG was staked properly, but not the castle nut, and the buffer tube / BCG sounded like they were filled with sand when I pulled the charging handle back. I replaced the RE with a milspec LMT and SOPMOD stock and added a KAC RAS, but after about 1000 rounds, I put it away and focused on pistols for a long time. It wasn't til around 2012 that I discovered BCM and got interested in ARs again. At this point, I'm trying to decide if I should rebuild the Bushmaster with a Colt LPK and maybe a new BCM upper, or if I should just leave it as is and use it as a range beater when the kids get older.
Dave
Bushmaster was never good. They used BS marketing and we were able to fill a niche that Colt couldn't or wouldn't. Their specs are all over the place and for everyone that works good, 3-4 don't run well.
The also counted on the fact that the average dude shoots a few hundred rounds per year. The 3% were inconsequential to them.
I bought and sold Bushmaster 5.56mm carbines and rifles over the years when I could buy them right, then turn them at a profit. I also owned a Bushmaster BAR-10 for a few years. All of them except one had issues with improper barrel index, gas key screw staking, front sight height, bad gas rings, rough tooling marks inside the bolt carrier and other issues.
I haven't had much experience with the new Bushmasters since the company name was sold. If I were to ask a question, I would ask "is Windham Weaponry turning out products as bad as the ones with the old Bushmaster label?"
Others debate this as evidenced above and elsewhere, but in the '90s bushmaster quality was in par with Colt IMHO. I was a class 2 at the time and we did a LOT of business with LE and transferable MGs and the bushmaster barrels, bolts, uppers, and FCGs were our go to components for good reason. Others have expressed differing opinions. YMMV
At any rate, their products after FG took over are garbage.
I have a Bushmaster 20" A2 (standard) that I bought around 2000. Being pre-ban, it's lacking a flash suppressor and bayonet lug.
Looks like the AR market has decided that 20" barrels are for grandpas, Vietnam Vets, and losers.
Anyhow- Is this BM rifle better quality than the ones on the market today by the same company?
Bushmaster is making great ARs. I bought a M4 E2S magpul edition last year and it is as well built and reliable as any Colt such as the 6920 for comparison purposes. Lots of propaganda out there regarding new BM quality and in my experience it's just amateur bull crap. I think Colt recently has more issues than BM ever will but the blind love for the old Colt prevents BM haters from fair analysis.
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Bushmaster is making great ARs.
Snip
Colt recently has more issues than BM ever will but the blind love for the old Colt prevents BM haters from fair analysis.
New to the forum? ☺ prepare for incoming!
Will say this: Most have forgotten or were not around when BM entered the market. The civvy colts backs then were not the 6920/6720s we have now. And there essentially was no AR aftermarket to address deficiencies. Maybe a handful of vendors no one knew about. And worn out surplus.
Not defending BM, just that the gap between commercial colts and BM was nowhere near as large as it was 5 years ago.
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Please tell us all about the standard BM is using this week? And what Colt issues might you be referring to and to what scale?
Bushmaster is making great ARs. I bought a M4 E2S magpul edition last year and it is as well built and reliable as any Colt such as the 6920 for comparison purposes. Lots of propaganda out there regarding new BM quality and in my experience it's just amateur bull crap. I think Colt recently has more issues than BM ever will but the blind love for the old Colt prevents BM haters from fair analysis.
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Please tell us all about the standard BM is using this week? And what Colt issues might you be referring to and to what scale?
I want Colt to succeed but a company loses their way when once they were making world class iconic firearms... Single action army, pythons, detective specials, anacondas... And now they couldn't produce a production of the Python because they just don't want to spend on world class quality.
The new CEO Dennis Veilleux comes across as a yuppie caretaker of this once legendary company of Sam Colt, the guy probably never even shot a python. Colt has lived off the decades old Armalite deal; giving them certain production advantages of which the novice public think of as the sacred mil spec. That spec is merely a minimum spec created by military bureaucrats n is exceeded by other AR manufacturers. So I won't get into a fan boy discussion of Colt or Bushmaster. But I do have some knowledge of the story n I do know Colt is extremely frustrated in the gun unfriendly state of Conn.
The company is run by yuppie investors now who view cost cutting as the ultimate business vision. I have seen some really cheap looking 6920s on Walmart shelves...this ain't the old Colt anymore....
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I have one too that I bought in Nov or Dec '04, right after the sunset, and to be blunt, it turned me off from ARs for about 8 years. It functioned fine, but it was obviously not as well made as the Colts that I was used to in the military (I had just returned from Iraq and turned in my M4, so it was a pretty direct comparison). The BCG was staked properly, but not the castle nut, and the buffer tube / BCG sounded like they were filled with sand when I pulled the charging handle back. I replaced the RE with a milspec LMT and SOPMOD stock and added a KAC RAS, but after about 1000 rounds, I put it away and focused on pistols for a long time. It wasn't til around 2012 that I discovered BCM and got interested in ARs again. At this point, I'm trying to decide if I should rebuild the Bushmaster with a Colt LPK and maybe a new BCM upper, or if I should just leave it as is and use it as a range beater when the kids get older.
Dave
Personally don't know many commercial rifles that stake their castle nuts, but my Bushmaster's BCG wasn't staked worth a damn, and nowhere near that of my BCMs.
As far as yours, I keep mine because it was my first AR and I like using it as an example of why you don't buy commercial rifles, so I have a valid use in my mind for it and well, it makes a neat and fun range toy since it looks retro now. I do not personally see the point in pouring money into a Bushmaster though, while I have toyed with replacing the internals on mine, or a BCM upper on it, it comes down for a couple or three hundred more I could basically build or buy a rifle of known quality new, like a BCM or Colt.
Bushmaster is making great ARs. I bought a M4 E2S magpul edition last year and it is as well built and reliable as any Colt such as the 6920 for comparison purposes. Lots of propaganda out there regarding new BM quality and in my experience it's just amateur bull crap. I think Colt recently has more issues than BM ever will but the blind love for the old Colt prevents BM haters from fair analysis.
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If you are having good luck with your BM carbine, that is great. How many rounds have you fired through your carbine and what types of ammunition have you fired?
I am no fan of Colt and based my opinion about the old Bushmasters on personal experience.
Others debate this as evidenced above and elsewhere, but in the '90s bushmaster quality was in par with Colt IMHO. I was a class 2 at the time and we did a LOT of business with LE and transferable MGs and the bushmaster barrels, bolts, uppers, and FCGs were our go to components for good reason. Others have expressed differing opinions. YMMV
At any rate, their products after FG took over are garbage.
This is true - way back when - Bushmaster produced parts & rifles of really decent quality. I still have 3 or 4 lowers from them that are running strong. On average, these particular guns are on their 4 & 5th barrels. They probably have in excess of 20,000 rds each. They have had multiple triggers over the years, as well as different uppers and buttstocks. Never ever had an issue with dimensions/fit and durability. But to reinforce - this was over 20 yrs ago. I think I bought my first lower from them in 1993. Most over these were built into National Match Service Rifles and were shot hard for a long time. I have others as well to include Colt, Aero Prec, Armalite, Rock River and LRB.
In the 80's and early 90's and for a good time after, Colt was a mess. I shot with a guy who was a Colt employee and worked in their tool room - some of the stuff he would tel me was just plane sad - (he left and went on to make his own competition rear sights - REG Tooling). Colt has had a revolving door of CEO's and labor issues. The late 80's were a disaster for Colt with the UAW strikes that lasted for 4 or 5 years IIRC. They had replacement workers who seriously lacked the experience to produce the same quality that had been the norm. Some of that stuff was utter junk. In the bigger picture Colt was waaaay behind the times - they tried to catch up with new "innovative" products - anyone remember the "All American 2000? LOL.
They filed for what would become a series of Chapter 11's in 92. In the late 90's - I think it was 97 or 98, the CEO rammed both feet in his mouth in making statements that COlt favored permiting and testing at the Federal level. WOW - and talk about the backlash. This innitiated a virtual boycott of the company. This directly affected quality.
Fact of business - when profits are down and Ch 11 filings are in - you trim expenses - that means labor and they got rid of dozens of experienced machinists, tool & die guys and technicians. Quality went into the toilet.
Colt moved into the smart handgun arena and that backfired as well.
The retired Marine - LTG Keys took over in early 2002ish and he basically turned the company around. They have significantly downsized their production models and have finally focused on quality. I am sure there are many many folks reading this that remember the ridiculous 2 pc pivot dimensions, the frustrating .172" hammer/trigger pins, the shaved down BC's, the blind pinned sear blocks and on and on - stupid stupid sh*t that was never necessary.
Don't get me wrong - I love Colt, I collect 1911's and own some COLT AR's - but they are not on any higher level than a bevy of other manufacturers. There are plenty of mfr's on the scene today that produce absolute junk. Colt has figuratively shot itself in the foot over and over again. To wit the state of CT pension fund investment in Colt to the tune of $35M - at the same time the state of CT was banning the rifles that that drove the share prices - Colt did a horrendous job of lobbying to prevent that catastrophe. One of their "retiring CEO's was given a licensing right to the Rampant Colt - he left and every time they stamped the pony, they had to pay him. Bad business decisions lead to Ch 11 filings, financial restructuring and reductions in expenses - this directly affected the quality of their products over and over again.
So - as this posting has gone - in comparison, BFI (BM) of the 1990's was as good and far superior to Colt in many ways. Colt also lost a ridiculous lawsuit to BM over the use of the designation "M4" - dumb dumb dumb.
In fairness though - in todays world - I wouldn't touch a BM with a ten foot pole - I'd take a freebie but would never dish any dead presi's for one.
I've wrenched on some of the new BM's - really shoddy QC - but like others have written - thats FG for you. I have heard very good things re: Windham Weaponry - which is the reincarnation of the original BM operation and a lot of the original employees who got screwed by FG - lot of back story on that.
I've carried M16's that were made by Colt, H&R and GM Hydro - they all rattled like a can of bolts. The one exception is an FN and it was, for the sake of full disclosure - fairly new - so it was tight.
Bottom line - things change. Some gets better, some get worse. No different with Colt or BM or any of the others.
FWIW
There are a lot more AR companies out there then there was in the early 2000s, hell more than there was 5 years ago, forget 10 o 15. I would say if you want a quality, name brand product, you would be looking at Colt, BCM, DD. DD probably does the most advertising of their products, while BCM is really innovating, and Colt is just colt at this point.
As far as Bushmaster goes.... I have an old Patrolman from not long after the sunset of the AWB. It has served well enough, probably over 3K through the rifle, my BCMs are far and away better rifles, better quality, finish, and shoot smoother, but the Bushmaster, hasn't been bad for what it is, but not run as hard as one of my BCMs either. My bushmaster came with a commerical stock, which has long been replaced with a mil spec one, recently returned it to factory-ish configuration, with carry handle irons, a BCM M4 stock from their site, and the carbine handguard and A2 grip. Fun range rifle and a decent back up not that everything is staked and I put a heavier buffer in it which did reduce felt recoil by a surprising amount. I would trust, but it isn't the rifle I would grab as my go to either.
This^^^
My good friend and shooting buddy has a Bushmaster that he purchased a few years ago through a law enforcement program that runs great with 4 thousand rounds through it, having said that I work at a range on weekends and have fixed my fare share of problems with them, DPMS and Bushmaster.
You asked who's top dog now and to that I would give you a range of companies doing things correctly, however, I mostly recommend building or putting together rifles, less costly. DD, BCM, Colt, LMT, Sionics, anything off of Rainier's website, KAC, Noveske, and I'm sure a few others.
Personally don't know many commercial rifles that stake their castle nuts, but my Bushmaster's BCG wasn't staked worth a damn, and nowhere near that of my BCMs.
As far as yours, I keep mine because it was my first AR and I like using it as an example of why you don't buy commercial rifles, so I have a valid use in my mind for it and well, it makes a neat and fun range toy since it looks retro now. I do not personally see the point in pouring money into a Bushmaster though, while I have toyed with replacing the internals on mine, or a BCM upper on it, it comes down for a couple or three hundred more I could basically build or buy a rifle of known quality new, like a BCM or Colt.
Great info. I always thought my early 2000's BM's were pretty great, although the one I've shot the most, the 20" A2, did have a gas key problem repaired by a gunsmith.
Oh, and I had to have a trigger replaced on my long barreled version. Otherwise, pretty reliable over a 3-4K round total between them.
If you are having good luck with your BM carbine, that is great. How many rounds have you fired through your carbine and what types of ammunition have you fired?
I am no fan of Colt and based my opinion about the old Bushmasters on personal experience.
1200 rounds thru it flawlessly , really accurate with PMC 223 55gr fmj-bt
the other ammo I use is the 55gr Remington fmj. Same great performance
So I just go with those two n stockpile as needed.
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Mr.Anderson
04-30-15, 22:05
If Colt is mil spec (a minimum) then seems to me if another brand (when being compared by "specs") would be below milspec ( a minimum), then Colt is superior even if to the minimum.
Only experience I have with a BM is me swearing I went through OSUT at Benning about 13 yrs ago and I had one. But nobody believes me so thats another story.
1200 rounds thru it flawlessly , really accurate with PMC 223 55gr fmj-bt
the other ammo I use is the 55gr Remington fmj. Same great performance
So I just go with those two n stockpile as needed.
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Again I have a friend that has one and has put a good amount more rounds through it flawlessly as well, but I still think that there are better rifles out there for the money. I'd never buy one. Reminds me of a Prius, people tell me that their great, but to me it means that they compromised at some point. I've also had the opportunity to see a lot of them fail ( I group DMPS in with them), a lot of them. But good for you, I guess.
justin_247
05-03-15, 08:07
Don't feed the trolls, folks...
Not trolling. Just have some older rifles and haven't watched the market over the last dozen or so years.
556BlackRifle
05-03-15, 12:56
My first personally owned AR was a Bushmaster I purchased in the early 1990s. It was a good rifle for the money. Accurate to about 2.5 MOA with iron sights if I did my part and I never had any issues with it. IMO it's not the same rifle that they make today. Personally, I wouldn't buy one of the new ones. YMMV......
justin_247
05-03-15, 13:02
Not trolling. Just have some older rifles and haven't watched the market over the last dozen or so years.
Don't worry, my comment was not directed at you.
Let me put it this way... back when Armalite, Bushmaster, and Colt (the co-called "ABCs" of AR-15s) were pretty much the only AR platform rifle brands on the market, Bushmaster was considered a "relatively" decent rifle, since there wasn't much in the way of competition. Now that there are literally hundreds of brands, the only way they have been able to truly differentiate themselves is by promoting the quality of components, assembly, and quality control relative to others. This has resulted in a significant increase in the quality of ARs from many brands, but Bushmaster has largely ignored this competition and kept on going with their old ways of doing things, riding out the wave they created back in the 1990s in early 2000s. As a result, many brands have surpassed them to the point that, RELATIVE to the other brands, Bushmasters are now considered lower-to-mid "tier" rifles.
There are objective measures by which one can evaluate the rifles produced by each of these brands, in particular the Technical Data Package (TDP). The TDP outlines the bare minimum specifications and quality control measures that any M-4 produced must meet in order to meet the requirements of the government. The standards outlined in the TDP far exceed Bushmaster's standards, which is why there are so many Bushmaster rifles out there that exhibit problems.
The fact that some Bushmaster rifles perform fine does not change this fact. If anything, it says more about the AR platform than it says about Bushmaster, in that the AR is still functional even after so many corners have been cut. But does this mean that this is somehow OK? No.
There are many rifles out there from good companies that far exceed the performance of Bushmasters sold at the same price point. There is no good reason to buy a Bushmaster nowadays.
Not trolling. Just have some older rifles and haven't watched the market over the last dozen or so years.
BM never made a great rifle, still does not under new ownership, and far better choices to be had for approx same $$ or slightly more. There's really not much else that needs to be said I'd think. You can either carry on with the BM (I had one myself at one point not knowing any better either until doing the research), buy something else and keep the old BM as a back up rifle, or dump the BM on someone who thinks it's a good AR and get something better. I did the latter personally.
Very interesting information. I assume the Technical Data Package (TDP) is something manufacturers that meet the standard will make known to prospective buyers.
Makes me think I should pick up at least one quality rifle and either sell off the BM's or just, as suggested, keep them as backup.
Very interesting information. I assume the Technical Data Package (TDP) is something manufacturers that meet the standard will make known to prospective buyers.
Makes me think I should pick up at least one quality rifle and either sell off the BM's or just, as suggested, keep them as backup.
I think we have a breakthrough! :cool:
justin_247
05-03-15, 14:49
Very interesting information. I assume the Technical Data Package (TDP) is something manufacturers that meet the standard will make known to prospective buyers.
Colt, BCM, and Daniel Defense are about the only ones who will explicitly mention it. LMT, KAC, Noveske, Spike's, PSA (although it is questionable whether or not the Spike's or PSA fully adhere to it), and a few others will hint about it...
Mr.Anderson
05-03-15, 18:10
Very interesting information. I assume the Technical Data Package (TDP) is something manufacturers that meet the standard will make known to prospective buyers.
Makes me think I should pick up at least one quality rifle and either sell off the BM's or just, as suggested, keep them as backup.
I was looking at several different AR manufacturing companies the other day.
One of the local places sold "Rebel Arms".
$1,100.oo+some change.
So I did some research (there is even some info here on Rebel Arms) and straight from their website we can determine that the $1,100 rifle (at least) isn't MIL SPEC.
I'm not even sure about the BCG but I know the barrel of said rifle was a 4140 barrel.
I realize the S&W AR I bought has a 4140 barrel also (so did the 1st civi AR I ever bought, Stag Arms "MIL SPEC" - so they said) but I paid half of what looks like the same "spec'd" rifle except the Rebel Arms AR had a PROPRIETARY FF RAIL. As in a proprietary nut/wrench is involved as well. And that, is another subject all together.
Here is enough reading for a long time:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?7009-AR-Technical-Discussion-FAQ-Knowledge-Base-Threads
I think we have a breakthrough! :cool:
Colt, BCM, and Daniel Defense are about the only ones who will explicitly mention it. LMT, KAC, Noveske, Spike's, PSA (although it is questionable whether or not the Spike's or PSA fully adhere to it), and a few others will hint about it...
So the hunt begins :)
None of which has anything to do with the Colt AR.
I want Colt to succeed but a company loses their way when once they were making world class iconic firearms... Single action army, pythons, detective specials, anacondas... And now they couldn't produce a production of the Python because they just don't want to spend on world class quality.
The new CEO Dennis Veilleux comes across as a yuppie caretaker of this once legendary company of Sam Colt, the guy probably never even shot a python. Colt has lived off the decades old Armalite deal; giving them certain production advantages of which the novice public think of as the sacred mil spec. That spec is merely a minimum spec created by military bureaucrats n is exceeded by other AR manufacturers. So I won't get into a fan boy discussion of Colt or Bushmaster. But I do have some knowledge of the story n I do know Colt is extremely frustrated in the gun unfriendly state of Conn.
The company is run by yuppie investors now who view cost cutting as the ultimate business vision. I have seen some really cheap looking 6920s on Walmart shelves...this ain't the old Colt anymore....
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Mr.Anderson
05-05-15, 09:52
If the last statement about Walmart holds any truth... I wouldnt know. I never did more than eyeball the Colts in the case.
Reminds of something I heard about Walmart though. I know he said she said is frowned upon here but this is more about Walmart than an AR so I hope I can get a pass for it!
In a nutshell, Walmart basically tells a manufacturer that 'we will pay you THIS much but will take a lot of them. Way I understood it was it didnt matter what the manufacturer would charge, Walmart dictated the terms or no sale.
Would be interesting to see if the statement about Walmart Colts looking like crap is valid.
Of course, I dont know if M4Eagle was saying ALL Colts, currently, or just Walmarts. The phrasing leads me to think the latter.
Roughly 15 years ago our agency purchased a few hundred Class 3 Bushmasters with short barrels for SWAT. I was told that the supplier "went through" the carbines before they were delivered. About 5 years after they were purchased I spoke with one of the personnel who had one assigned to him. He told me he had not had any issues with his carbine or was aware of anyone else who had problems. His carbine had over 20,000 rounds at the time of the conversation. He was a team armorer who performed routine inspections and maintenance. He said that gas rings and other consumable parts had decent service life before replacement.
At some point Bushmaster may have used durable parts in the manufacture of LEO contract carbines. My experience with carbines purchased at gun shops or box stores was not as good as the department had with the contract weapons.
If the last statement about Walmart holds any truth... I wouldnt know. I never did more than eyeball the Colts in the case.
Reminds of something I heard about Walmart though. I know he said she said is frowned upon here but this is more about Walmart than an AR so I hope I can get a pass for it!
In a nutshell, Walmart basically tells a manufacturer that 'we will pay you THIS much but will take a lot of them. Way I understood it was it didnt matter what the manufacturer would charge, Walmart dictated the terms or no sale.
Would be interesting to see if the statement about Walmart Colts looking like crap is valid.
Of course, I dont know if M4Eagle was saying ALL Colts, currently, or just Walmarts. The phrasing leads me to think the latter.
Yes Mr. Anderson,
Colt produces n ships some top of the line ARs. But you won't find Rolexs at Walmart n Colts heavy distribution there reeks of cost cutting which I checked out and witnessed for myself.
A quality high end producer shipping in mass to Wallyworld a product such as an M4 6920 does raise questions as to market strategy, quality, cost cutting etc. but I understand that Colt still can n does produce world class ARs... While also producing something far less eg. The Walmart shelves.
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Yes Mr. Anderson,
Colt produces n ships some top of the line ARs. But you won't find Rolexs at Walmart n Colts heavy distribution there reeks of cost cutting which I checked out and witnessed for myself.
A quality high end producer shipping in mass to Wallyworld a product such as an M4 6920 does raise questions as to market strategy, quality, cost cutting etc. but I understand that Colt still can n does produce world class ARs... While also producing something far less eg. The Walmart shelves.
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I have heard no complaints about the 6920 purchased at Walmart or otherwise, and has far as I know, the 6920 is the same regardless of where sold, and use all standard Colt parts use in other ARs they sell. The 6920 is not a tricked out AR to be sure, but an excellent base gun for building on if the person so chooses, or leaving stock. I can't speak to QC suffering due to volume, but the 6920 for the $$$, seems well regarded by the more knowledgeable AR members here and often recommended.
While the "walmart" thing may be true for many manufactures due to demand, I don't think it affects colt much being a mil supplier. They produce carbines at a price point much lower than what we see for the mil, and walmart buy price is probably closer to that due to volume. If they provide quality for mil orders, they can manage walmart volume, I would guess.
Mr.Anderson
05-05-15, 13:29
Personally, I'm inclined to agree with you two gents.
AFAIK, the "comparison" has not been done(?). I'd still be interested in seeing it. If for nothing else but to cross out that notion.
justin_247
05-05-15, 15:03
Yes Mr. Anderson,
Colt produces n ships some top of the line ARs. But you won't find Rolexs at Walmart n Colts heavy distribution there reeks of cost cutting which I checked out and witnessed for myself.
A quality high end producer shipping in mass to Wallyworld a product such as an M4 6920 does raise questions as to market strategy, quality, cost cutting etc. but I understand that Colt still can n does produce world class ARs... While also producing something far less eg. The Walmart shelves.
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In many cases, the Colts sold at Wal-Mart are more expensive than ones you can find on the internet, so I question your allegations of "cost cutting." The cheapest Colt I have seen at Wal-Mart was a 6920MP (Magpul edition) that was being sold for $845 due to an inventory purge. The rifle was beautiful... one of the nicest Colts I've seen.
There have been numerous times over the past few months where you could buy 6720s over the internet for $800 (G&R Tactical has them right now, and he's a seller with a very high reputation around here).
So, I dunno where you get this idea that there is cost cutting going on.
3ACR_Scout
05-05-15, 15:43
They produce carbines at a price point much lower than what we see for the mil, and walmart buy price is probably closer to that due to volume.
It's been a while, but I think my last unit property book listed the value of an M4 as somewhere around $600, FWIW.
In many cases, the Colts sold at Wal-Mart are more expensive than ones you can find on the internet, so I question your allegations of "cost cutting."
There seems to be a compulsion among many people on this forum to read too much into things, rather than looking at the simpler, more obvious explanation. I would suspect that Colt's lower prices in recent years have been partly a result of the volume of sales they are doing to the civilian market through Walmart. Any time items are produced in larger numbers, the manufacturer can save money by purchasing supplies and making components in larger volume. I wouldn't be surprised if Walmart accounts for half of Colt's civilian sales.
Dave
turnburglar
05-05-15, 23:02
Lol colt produces guns for the DOD.... Pretty sure they can fill a wholesale order just fine without throwing the baby out with the bath water.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Now let's focus back on the Bushmaster.
Yes Mr. Anderson,
Colt produces n ships some top of the line ARs. But you won't find Rolexs at Walmart n Colts heavy distribution there reeks of cost cutting which I checked out and witnessed for myself.
A quality high end producer shipping in mass to Wallyworld a product such as an M4 6920 does raise questions as to market strategy, quality, cost cutting etc. but I understand that Colt still can n does produce world class ARs... While also producing something far less eg. The Walmart shelves.
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You have no idea what you are talking about. Now let's focus back on the Bushmaster.
Which I think you put to bed on page 1 LOL
Bushmaster was never good. They used BS marketing and we were able to fill a niche that Colt couldn't or wouldn't. Their specs are all over the place and for everyone that works good, 3-4 don't run well.
The also counted on the fact that the average dude shoots a few hundred rounds per year. The 3% were inconsequential to them.
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