View Full Version : Are we close to a true civil war?
BoringGuy45
05-01-15, 23:28
The left's rhetoric seems to be getting more and more violent. They've quickly gone from excusing violent behavior to demanding it. People are getting more stirred up by the day and they seem to have a unified, albeit false, cause.
Does anyone think we may be close to an actual civil war? Is it possible that a leftist rebel army could organize from these riots and attempt an armed takeover of this country? Or are they still too cowardly?
I think a Silent Revolution is more plausible than a violent one, and I doubt it would stem from the Baltimore event.
However the Jade Helm exercise does raise some questions.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013900/Fears-martial-law-special-ops-set-swarm-Southwest-operate-undetected-civilians-ve-deemed-HOSTILE-massive-military-exercise.html
HighDesert
05-01-15, 23:39
The left's rhetoric seems to be getting more and more violent. They've quickly gone from excusing violent behavior to demanding it. People are getting more stirred up by the day and they seem to have a unified, albeit false, cause.
Does anyone think we may be close to an actual civil war? Is it possible that a leftist rebel army could organize from these riots and attempt an armed takeover of this country? Or are they still too cowardly?
You honestly can't be serious.
It's shit like this that give us gun owners a bad name.
Wake up man.
King riots were closer than this. Lot of actual back and forth shooting and some serious "under occupation" areas. The difference now is a greater number of retards on facebook saying incredibly racist things.
SpeedRacer
05-02-15, 00:08
A couple days here and there of hoodlums taking advantage of situations by looting sneakers and booze is a LONG way away from civil war. Like a really, really, really LONG way.
Have we already run out of other impending dooms? Is the ebola thing over? I'm so out of the loop on these things. :(
BoringGuy45
05-02-15, 00:15
You honestly can't be serious.
It's shit like this that give us gun owners a bad name.
Wake up man.
Whoa, I'm not saying lock and load right now. I've just not seen such constant unrest in this country in my lifetime and I'm wondering if it's a sign that things are about to get even worse.
SpeedRacer
05-02-15, 00:26
Whoa, I'm not saying lock and load right now. I've just not seen such constant unrest in this country in my lifetime and I'm wondering if it's a sign that things are about to get even worse.
That may be true, but you have to account for media sensationalism as well. Realistically, all of the "riots" we've had in recent years combined still don't even add up to your average post-game soccer (or futbol or whatever) celebration in some countries. Is there an agenda to the media's exaggerated coveraging and pushing of the issues? I think so. But I think it has more to do with selling ads and persuading voters than anything.
Whoa, I'm not saying lock and load right now. I've just not seen such constant unrest in this country in my lifetime and I'm wondering if it's a sign that things are about to get even worse.
Just as these things seemed to get worse with the election of Obama, a change in Presidency can change things for better or worse. We've seen this sort of thing from time to time, but the difference is these riots are not only tolerated but sanctioned and endorsed by government. It's one of the few "actual changes" that comes with a change in office.
Hopefully we will get a real President in 2016.
Whoa, I'm not saying lock and load right now. I've just not seen such constant unrest in this country in my lifetime and I'm wondering if it's a sign that things are about to get even worse. I am curious as to how old you are? Not to discount your opinion, just to put some context on it. In the 60's we had protests and riots just as bad or worse than than anything that's happen in the last 12 months.
I think a Silent Revolution is more plausible than a violent one, and I doubt it would stem from the Baltimore event.
However the Jade Helm exercise does raise some questions.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013900/Fears-martial-law-special-ops-set-swarm-Southwest-operate-undetected-civilians-ve-deemed-HOSTILE-massive-military-exercise.html
1,200 SOF couldn't take over Texas. 12,000 SOF couldn't do it either.
Infowars is just doing what it always does and trying to scare its viewers to keep them glued to their own media.
Daily Mail is a tabloid.
HighDesert
05-02-15, 02:55
Whoa, I'm not saying lock and load right now. I've just not seen such constant unrest in this country in my lifetime and I'm wondering if it's a sign that things are about to get even worse.
"In your lifetime"
Well how old are you?
Times really aren't any more tumultuous than any other decade - same shit different asshole. Everything is just that much more visible due to technology.
HighDesert
05-02-15, 03:06
Get out and travel the world - you will quickly realize how good we have it. No other country enjoys the range of freedoms we do.
I'm not actually sure if there is even a time period in our country's history I'd rather live in.
I've just not seen such constant unrest in this country in my lifetime ....................
And therein is the problem. You obviously weren't around in the 60s and 70s. It was way worse. Do your research.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
05-02-15, 06:49
Yes. And experts agree, it will be East v West this time. Per US Civil War rules, however, only wool uniforms can be worn. It will be itchy, but damnit, it will be hipster!
Seriously though, log off infowars and go outside...
The left's rhetoric seems to be getting more and more violent. They've quickly gone from excusing violent behavior to demanding it. People are getting more stirred up by the day and they seem to have a unified, albeit false, cause.
Does anyone think we may be close to an actual civil war? Is it possible that a leftist rebel army could organize from these riots and attempt an armed takeover of this country? Or are they still too cowardly?
How much 22 and 855 have you hoarded?
BoringGuy45
05-02-15, 08:16
"In your lifetime"
Well how old are you?
Times really aren't any more tumultuous than any other decade - same shit different asshole. Everything is just that much more visible due to technology.
I'm 29. The worst I've been around for before this, as far as I can remember, were the Rodney King riots.
Get out and travel the world - you will quickly realize how good we have it. No other country enjoys the range of freedoms we do.
I'm not actually sure if there is even a time period in our country's history I'd rather live in.
^^This X1000^^ there is still no place like the USA. Travel and draw your own conclusions.
I am curious as to how old you are? Not to discount your opinion, just to put some context on it. In the 60's we had protests and riots just as bad or worse than than anything that's happen in the last 12 months.
Exactly.
The difference is back then we had one newspaper and one hour of TV news daily, while today we have thousands of people telling us how horrible things are 24/7.
Pre-Internet it was also extremely difficult for the idiots to find an outlet for their febrile rants. Now...not so much.
I'm 29. The worst I've been around for before this, as far as I can remember, were the Rodney King riots.
I'm 29 as well, we aren't going near a civil war, we have the ability to take different people from different parts of this nation and come together in one big movement, I saw this after Sept. 11th and I will no doubt see this again. My time in the Marine Corps really restored any faith I had in this country, I was always impressed how my Marine who varied so much in background could come together and become a unit. I think that this country can do the same, I feel like the whole Blue State v Red State separation is one that is placed on us by politicians hunting for votes or media outlets fluffing up news stories, in the end I don't really care whether you're Democrat or Republican, Black or White, Man or Woman, because it is the content of character that counts, and Americans are good people, all of us. As the saying goes, its always darkest before the dawn.
I'm 29. The worst I've been around for before this, as far as I can remember, were the Rodney King riots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unrest_in_the_United_States
Business_Casual
05-02-15, 09:53
And therein is the problem. You obviously weren't around in the 60s and 70s. It was way worse. Do your research.
This is the case.
I'm 29 as well, we aren't going near a civil war, we have the ability to take different people from different parts of this nation and come together in one big movement, I saw this after Sept. 11th and I will no doubt see this again. My time in the Marine Corps really restored any faith I had in this country, I was always impressed how my Marine who varied so much in background could come together and become a unit. I think that this country can do the same, I feel like the whole Blue State v Red State separation is one that is placed on us by politicians hunting for votes or media outlets fluffing up news stories, in the end I don't really care whether you're Democrat or Republican, Black or White, Man or Woman, because it is the content of character that counts, and Americans are good people, all of us. As the saying goes, its always darkest before the dawn.
I like the way you think. Same experiences in my time in the Marines - it was the 70's and racial enmity was rampant, but the Corps kept rolling, and most folks, black, white, Hispanic, worked together in harmony.
We all have a lot in common IF we only stop to think about it. Americans are good people as you so eloquently stated - in the end I don't really care whether you're Democrat or Republican, Black or White, Man or Woman, because it is the content of character that counts, and Americans are good people
The left's rhetoric seems to be getting more and more violent. They've quickly gone from excusing violent behavior to demanding it. People are getting more stirred up by the day and they seem to have a unified, albeit false, cause.
Does anyone think we may be close to an actual civil war? Is it possible that a leftist rebel army could organize from these riots and attempt an armed takeover of this country? Or are they still too cowardly?
I do not, not even close. I do think there's a potential for civil unrest beyond where it's currently focused and at higher intensity, which is a far cry from actual civil war.
In the past rioters, looters, arsonists, were referred to as violent, criminals.
The same type dirtbag today is referred to as a "misguided youth" and there activity is viewed as a good thing as it's led to so-called justice for the criminal know as Freddie Gray.
What a crock!
Things are rough out there. It's only a matter of time before shitg oes down. I don't leave the house anymore without armor, M4, IFAK, NODS (in the trunk), 7 spare mags, and P226 (6 mags). Usually a SF60 in the gun if things look hairy.
I don't leave the house anymore without armor, M4, IFAK, NODS (in the trunk), 7 spare mags, and P226 (6 mags). Usually a SF60 in the gun if things look hairy.
Seriously? Or am I not detecting the humor?
No offense intended OP, but 29 is way young. You have a lot of life lessons in front of you over the next 10 - 20 years.
Things are rough out there. It's only a matter of time before shitg oes down. I don't leave the house anymore without armor, M4, IFAK, NODS (in the trunk), 7 spare mags, and P226 (6 mags). Usually a SF60 in the gun if things look hairy.
LOL!
Sent from my SM-G900T using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
Things are rough out there. It's only a matter of time before shitg oes down. I don't leave the house anymore without armor, M4, IFAK, NODS (in the trunk), 7 spare mags, and P226 (6 mags). Usually a SF60 in the gun if things look hairy.
You too?
Are we close to a true civil war....
Not directly because of Baltiferguson, although it may play a part.
Honestly, I think the upcoming elections will decide this more than current events.
And even then it won't be an overnight thing- it'll just further the encroachment of tyrannical gov., the social fracturing and overall neutering of this country, then at some point down the road things may get frisky.
Kind of like the old "doomsday clock" during the cold war era.... were we "close" to nuclear WW3 then? Sure, but just because someone has nukes pointed at you doesn't necessarily mean it's going down....
That being said.... in certain circles I've seen ruckus get started because some folks freaked out over having a NG convoy roll through town. #OMGMARTIALLAW!!!
:rolleyes:
I'm 29. The worst I've been around for before this, as far as I can remember, were the Rodney King riots.
You were 6 years old when the Rodney King thing happened....were you in LA when that happened, and more importantly, were you in the specific part of LA where things went sideways?
What civil unrest? A bit of looting and thuggery in the ghetto shithole part of Baltimore, guess what? in the wealthy suburbs of Maryland and Virginia all is well. You know what people in Omaha, Chicago, Kansas City and Houston are doing ? Going to the mall, making dinner reservations, and cutting the grass. Guess what's happening in south Florida? Going to the beach.
The nonsensical political garbage happening in Baltimore does not effect 99.9% of the population. Political ramifications at some point ? Hmmm, perhaps if anyone recalls anything 2-3 months from now.
Civil war ???? are you serious ???
VooDoo6Actual
05-02-15, 13:28
The left's rhetoric seems to be getting more and more violent. They've quickly gone from excusing violent behavior to demanding it. People are getting more stirred up by the day and they seem to have a unified, albeit false, cause.
Does anyone think we may be close to an actual civil war? Is it possible that a leftist rebel army could organize from these riots and attempt an armed takeover of this country? Or are they still too cowardly?
All radicals do what radicals do, whether left or right of the bubble. The right intellectual Neo-Cons know how to use the left progressives / radicals / barking moon bats to their benefit by manipulating the lexicon, their emotions & Mass Media or CSI. Many people cannot think beyond the 2 party polemic paradigm & consequently get confused or cognitive dissonance becomes their ally by default. Rulers, leaders, dictators, bankers et alia etc. all know this & all rule by this & have for centuries. We are in a hybrid war plan of 4th/5 th GW tactics. Civic ignorance, civic indolence & civic apathy are how we got here. I wish the uptake of this were faster but it's evident that so many are in the dark.
The USA will continue to swirl the toilet bowl one turd at a time until the people figure it out, if they ever do at all. It's the waiting that's the hardest part for those who can complete the equation correctly...
Now, regarding the bigger picture or Macro Geo political ramifications, China & Russia (like I said more than 2 years ago here) will continue to gain strength due to mutually aligned political, economic & geo-resources. The Technocracy model appeals to China & Russia somewhat for this very reason. It's a Economic model that uses Energy as a metric & not industrialization per se & this is different from what America was built upon, hence the transitional difficulties we are seeing. It also requires a closer resemblance to communism, facism, coporativism, socialism, MBIC etc. which the American people are not down with. The problem is China & Russia do NOT trust the US leadership. So again the poopy pants kid in the room is the US & it's policies. The US citizens do not trust their own either. So no we see the "US has a PR problem" in better focus.
MountainRaven
05-02-15, 14:09
A couple days here and there of hoodlums taking advantage of situations by looting sneakers and booze is a LONG way away from civil war. Like a really, really, really LONG way.
Have we already run out of other impending dooms? Is the ebola thing over? I'm so out of the loop on these things. :(
You haven't heard?
Well, al-Qaeda is weaponizing ebola to give it to ISIS along with Iran giving them some nukes. They have FOBs set up in Mexico and safehouses and spy networks established in all 50 states. Putin is preparing to launch an EMP strike against the United States and China is going to give guns - mostly taken from those given to Libyans and Syrians by the US - to American gangs to kill as many white cops as possible following the combined Russian EMP/ISIS ebola/Iranian nuclear attacks. Iraqi and Afghan refugees from our occupations of those countries are setting up mosques to brainwash our children into becoming Muslims. And I hear the French are planning on sending us cooked frog legs and snails as a sort of "**** you".
It's all open-source man, you just have to do the research.
:jester:
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-02-15, 22:51
Nope, people are too lazy.
The Left has no weapons. Bring it on!
I like the way you think. Same experiences in my time in the Marines - it was the 70's and racial enmity was rampant, but the Corps kept rolling, and most folks, black, white, Hispanic, worked together in harmony.
We all have a lot in common IF we only stop to think about it. Americans are good people as you so eloquently stated - in the end I don't really care whether you're Democrat or Republican, Black or White, Man or Woman, because it is the content of character that counts, and Americans are good people
Eloquent, I an't in to whatever you're selling, I'm much more of an a**hole when I'm not having a cocktail, I do think that the military as a whole does a great job of moving over social movements and staying to mission.
Flankenstein
05-03-15, 01:09
Is it possible that a leftist rebel army could organize from these riots and attempt an armed takeover of this country? Or are they still too cowardly?
WTF is a leftist rebel army?
In any event as it currently stands WE are too cowardly...
WTF is a leftist rebel army?
In any event as it currently stands WE are too cowardly...
I'm not going to start shooting. But if shooting starts I'll return fire.
Averageman
05-03-15, 03:01
I'm in my mid fifties, at least I will be in a couple of days.
As far as a change of social and personal values, I think the War is over and we already lost. It would take a tremendous earth shattering event to wake everyone up from the stupor we have found our society in.
I don't think most people can wrap their heads around just how hard life was and how hard people had to work to get ahead, just 40 or 50 years ago. In the meantime we're watching the greatest generation slowly fade and there is no way on earth my Son could live the kind of life those guys had to endure.
We have seen a slow erosion, not an overnight revolution that has effected a real change. In the name of "progress" and "enlightenment" we have been fooled in to becoming fat, dumb and lazy as a society. It fits and for the most part, most of America is wearing it.
When you look at things like Ferguson and Baltimore, the guys we trust and pay to protect us are being told to stand back by Politicans and don't take any aggressive action to stop the looting and arson. I dont think you would have heard a Mayor say those things 20 or 30, let alone 50 years ago. I don't know that you could have found a Police Chief that would have been willing to go along with it.
The slow erosion only becomes dramatic when you can compare it in some unique and dramatic test. I would say the litmus test here is just a measure of how far the failure has progressed.
If you're looking for a gun fight in the streets, clearly the left didn't need one to win. The left didn't need one to win because they used the tools they had and beat us to a pulp.
I think we're hanging on by a thin thread and it doesn't look like we can come back from it.
To envision our future look to the cultures most like ours - Europe, where Progressive policies started undermining their core values twenty years before here. All of it is defenseless without the US military umbrella. When our rot reaches their levels I expect more old fashioned invasions by relatively strong neighbors, not civil wars within an apathetic populace. I guess the good news is that the crocodile eats us last.
Things are rough out there. It's only a matter of time before shitg oes down. I don't leave the house anymore without armor, M4, IFAK, NODS (in the trunk), 7 spare mags, and P226 (6 mags). Usually a SF60 in the gun if things look hairy.
Sounds like how I typically go to work every day. On my off days nothing like that.........
Seriously. There is an agenda afoot and like typical it is caused by a small percentage of the population. Most of the population is just trying to get by. Civil war, No. Civil unrest, depends on what is going on.
Dan
Phillygunguy
05-03-15, 06:37
I thought about civil war, maybe 20 years from now, but what concerns me is the change from soft tyranny we have now to a full dictatorship, like Venezuela, or Cuba. I'm 47 I remember the " oil opec crisis" in the 70s the long lines at the gas station, the Hostages in Iran the cold war, the conflict in Grenada, desert storm and iraq and Afghanistan wars. I have never seen a country become as politically divided as we are today, I don't remember the 60s but I think racism is being kept alive because it keeps people like Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson in buisness
I think the Left is becoming more extreme and the Right more complacent if one looks back at the Obama presidency, the abuse of power by this administration, has been the most corrupt, at least in my lifetime. The president and his phone and pen, have given the office of the President more dictatorial powers than previously, and it's going to get worse regardless of who the next president will be.
I was very young during the 60's, but I do remember the riots. 1968 was a very tumultuous year. LBJ's "Great Society/War on Poverty" had been in affect for almost four years, as well as the Civil Rights Act, and Vietnam was really cooking. Television was the catalyst for a lot of the issues, only really being popular for a decade or so. I don't think it is any worse now than it was then. The common thread is that we have leadership that is more concerned with their own ego and power than they are with the American way of life, and prosperity of its citizens.
...The president and his phone and pen, have given the office of the President more dictatorial powers than previously, and it's going to get worse regardless of who the next president will be.
The problem isn't presidents assuming authority they don't have, but rather Congress abdicating their responsibility.
This county has spent 200 years trying to get their king back.
Phillygunguy
05-03-15, 09:19
I can agree with that with this congress, with republican control. Nobody has any balls.
BoringGuy45
05-03-15, 10:35
I guess, from how things are now at least, we're not on the verge of a full civil war, that is:
1) Dissolving into a failed state with warring factions vying for control like in Somalia or
2) Having a rival faction with the training, funding, manpower, and equipment to be a real threat of defeating our military and taking over the country like ISIS in Iraq.
However, I can't help but wonder if we'll see the rise of something similar to The Troubles in Northern Ireland in some areas of the country. Or, if not that extreme, perhaps the rise of some domestic groups similar to the Marxist groups in Europe in the 70s and 80s (Red Army Faction, Action Directe, etc.), or a resurgence of groups like the SLA or Weather Underground. We have this constant rhetoric to certain groups that this country is designed to operate for one purpose, and that's to keep those groups down, so it wouldn't surprise me to see these riots give birth to some terrorists looking to throw off these "chains of oppression."
Now, the good part is that the vast majority of leftists are spineless, yellow bellied cowards, and like to feel brave doing things that take no risk, so I don't think any terror group is going to be big enough that we need to start stocking up on ammo. But, I'll definitely be keeping my eyes open.
...Now, the good part is that the vast majority of leftists are spineless, yellow bellied cowards, and like to feel brave doing things that take no risk, so I don't think any terror group is going to be big enough that we need to start stocking up on ammo. But, I'll definitely be keeping my eyes open.
If you think "rightists" are any different than "leftists" I'd contend that your eyes are not open.
Phillygunguy
05-03-15, 10:56
I guess, from how things are now at least, we're not on the verge of a full civil war, that is:
1) Dissolving into a failed state with warring factions vying for control like in Somalia or
2) Having a rival faction with the training, funding, manpower, and equipment to be a real threat of defeating our military and taking over the country like ISIS in Iraq.
However, I can't help but wonder if we'll see the rise of something similar to The Troubles in Northern Ireland in some areas of the country. Or, if not that extreme, perhaps the rise of some domestic groups similar to the Marxist groups in Europe in the 70s and 80s (Red Army Faction, Action Directe, etc.), or a resurgence of groups like the SLA or Weather Underground. We have this constant rhetoric to certain groups that this country is designed to operate for one purpose, and that's to keep those groups down, so it wouldn't surprise me to see these riots give birth to some terrorists looking to throw off these "chains of oppression."
Now, the good part is that the vast majority of leftists are spineless, yellow bellied cowards, and like to feel brave doing things that take no risk, so I don't think any terror group is going to be big enough that we need to start stocking up on ammo. But, I'll definitely be keeping my eyes open.
Those Marxist left wing groups in the 60s and 70s are the ones running the government today
Averageman
05-03-15, 11:07
Now, the good part is that the vast majority of leftists are spineless, yellow bellied cowards, and like to feel brave doing things that take no risk, so I don't think any terror group is going to be big enough that we need to start stocking up on ammo. But, I'll definitely be keeping my eyes open.
And part is the have a type of access to the Media and Attorneys willing to work pro bono in order to change the social structure.
They have no moral reason not to lie to win. The whole scam about Romney not paying taxes for ten years and throwing that bold face lie out there in the middle of an election is the status quo for the lengths they are willing to go to win.
And part is the have a type of access to the Media and Attorneys willing to work pro bono in order to change the social structure.
They have no moral reason not to lie to win. The whole scam about Romney not paying taxes for ten years and throwing that bold face lie out there in the middle of an election is the status quo for the lengths they are willing to go to win.
True. Ethics/morality be damned...= a hard combo to beat in politics.
To envision our future look to the cultures most like ours - Europe, where Progressive policies started undermining their core values twenty years before here. All of it is defenseless without the US military umbrella. When our rot reaches their levels I expect more old fashioned invasions by relatively strong neighbors, not civil wars within an apathetic populace. I guess the good news is that the crocodile eats us last.
Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant to step the ocean and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia, and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest, with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force take a drink from the Ohio or make a track on the Blue Ridge in a trial of a thousand years. At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer. If it ever reach us it must spring up amongst us; it cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide. -Abe Lincoln
VooDoo6Actual
05-03-15, 11:41
One Man's Terrorist is another Man's Freedom Fighter.
The Kill order was given long ago. People just figuring that out now clearly don't understand history, psychopathology / pathology of human behavior, CSI (Cultural & Socioeconomic Interception) etc.
Our culture is imploding.
Having discussions about Moral Relatevism is like trying to argue who's the bigger sinner, the Pimp or the Whore or who has more faith, the Gnostic or the Catholic ?
Trying to bail water out of the Titanic is like trying to shoot pool w/ a rope...
"Immanentize the Eschaton"
I am what some would consider a "prepper". Only because I have lived through many exciting times here in the United States and abroad.
Things I have lived through;
-Fires surrounded us in the San Gabriel mountains.
-Ca. earthquakes took our our city water supply. Our city didn't have water for 2 weeks.
-Flash floods took out the bridges in and out of our town.
-Cold weather/wind took out our power supply in Utah for 7 days.
-Riots and protests abroad when I was young in Spain in my early 20's. (anti American, anti capitalist, Communist protests which quickly turned into riots and caught us unawares)
Since the '90's (when I returned from Spain)I have tried to prepare for emergencies like this and even more long term emergencies (Katrina/Sandy etc.). All of these situations were not traumatic for us because we had learned to pack up quickly, survive on our stored water, light/heat sources.
Is there a possibility of civil war in the next 100 years? Not probable, but not 100% impossible. Is it worth preparing for? Nope, not any more than I have already done. Whet else would I do beyond being self-reliant, and refuse be a victim in times of civil unrest?
I am a bit of a prepper apologist, and put forth a few rational reasons for prepping besides civil war, zombies, Russians/Koreans/Chinese invading. Bottom line, irrelevant if there is a civil war or not. Live our lives smartly, and whatever comes, we will work through it.
Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant to step the ocean and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia, and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest, with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force take a drink from the Ohio or make a track on the Blue Ridge in a trial of a thousand years. At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer. If it ever reach us it must spring up amongst us; it cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide. -Abe Lincoln
Abe was a bit optimistic about the thousand years timeline. Grand wisdom for a world without nukes, missles, planes, flash mobs etc. but he's on point about our choosing suicide.
I see power consolidating wars in Europe and Asia after we are too weak to protect our allies. Then the victors focusing on us on multiple fronts: supporting Islamist fifth columns, hispanic separatists, economic and infrastructure sabotage, large scale funding of politicians, lawfare, allying with drug cartels, and many other creative ways. If someone finally comes with their military to grab some territory they may face only token opposition. I doubt they will be looking to soon drink from the Ohio or track the Blue Ridge. The left coast should take a while to digest.
However the Jade Helm exercise does raise some questions.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013900/Fears-martial-law-special-ops-set-swarm-Southwest-operate-undetected-civilians-ve-deemed-HOSTILE-massive-military-exercise.html
Lmao! You're not serious I hope! Aside from the ridiculous idea that a training exercise is anything but... The military has used states as "the enemy" during scenarios for as long as I can recall. When we held JREX in 1998 the "people" of Washington state were the "enemy" meaning our evaders were behind the lines for the purposes of the exercise. We've also created made up names of countries using existing state boundaries for combat exercises. Anytime infowars is listed as a source you can presume it's paranoid nonsense.
And most of the American military is not of the type who would take action against us as Americans. Within the military the SOF community is the least likely to be brainwashed into such action.
And most of the American military is not of the type who would take action against us as Americans. Within the military the SOF community is the least likely to be brainwashed into such action.
Harold Coyle wrote a fairly good novel about this...Against all Enemies. Realistic...? I have no clue. You would know better than I but I enjoyed the book as much as any of his others.
VooDoo6Actual
05-03-15, 15:39
This isn't happening by accident.
Interesting read here: The coming of the Super Predators (aka Urban Apex / Alpha Predators)
http://cooley.libarts.wsu.edu/schwartj/criminology/dilulio.pdf
In 1995, John DiIulio, a professor at Princeton who coined the term "superpredator," predicted that the number of juveniles in custody would increase three-fold in the coming years and that, by 2010, there would be "an estimated 270,000 more young predators on the streets than in 1990." Criminologist James Fox joined in the rhetoric, saying publicly, "Unless we act today, we're going to have a bloodbath when these kids grow up."
These predictions set off a panic, fueled by highly publicized heinous crimes committed by juvenile offenders, which led nearly every state to pass legislation between 1992 and 1999 that dramatically increased the treatment of juveniles as adults for purposes of sentencing and punishment.
As DiIulio and Fox themselves later admitted, the prediction of a juvenile superpredator epidemic turned out to be wrong. In fact, violent juvenile crime rates had already started to fall in the mid-1990's. By 2000, the juvenile homicide rate stabilized below the 1985 level.
BTW, I disagree with what I highlighted & italicized. I think Prof. Dilulio was right given that the variables of what I prescribed above are met (no Jobs, Food, HOPE/Dreams, money $ or Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs).
Pretty much what we are seeing in Ferguson, Baltimore & elsewhere. It's not rocket science & already WIDELY know that when people don't have jobs, money $, food etc et alia the creature comfort they RIOT or act out in violence. Study after study Ad nauseum.
Political Arsonist's (Radicals) pour Gasoline on fire to create more crisis's by design that's one way they stimulate change & of course False Flags / Black Swan Events etc.
Harold Coyle wrote a fairly good novel about this...Against all Enemies. Realistic...? I have no clue. You would know better than I but I enjoyed the book as much as any of his others.
Not familiar with it. That's said, there may be people in the military (and LE) who grew up in certain large cities where they were raised to believe guns are evil. But most of us take the oaths we swore to the Constitution very seriously and will not enforce an unlawful order. This of course could be (and has been) its own thread. But to suggest a mil exercise (especially a SOF centric one) is a warm up to using those troops against Americans is Hollywood fantasy.
As for the OP's subject I don't believe we are remotely close to a civil war. If anything the bigger threat to us as a nation will come from othe countries making moves/gains overseas while we are distracted with the thuggery at home with incidents such as this.
Lmao! You're not serious I hope! Aside from the ridiculous idea that a training exercise is anything but... The military has used states as "the enemy" during scenarios for as long as I can recall. When we held JREX in 1998 the "people" of Washington state were the "enemy" meaning our evaders were behind the lines for the purposes of the exercise. We've also created made up names of countries using existing state boundaries for combat exercises. Anytime infowars is listed as a source you can presume it's paranoid nonsense.
And most of the American military is not of the type who would take action against us as Americans. Within the military the SOF community is the least likely to be brainwashed into such action.
If anything, they'd be fighting on the opposition/civilian side.
Business_Casual
05-03-15, 17:43
To envision our future look to the cultures most like ours - Europe, where Progressive policies started undermining their core values twenty years before here. All of it is defenseless without the US military umbrella. When our rot reaches their levels I expect more old fashioned invasions by relatively strong neighbors, not civil wars within an apathetic populace. I guess the good news is that the crocodile eats us last.
The decline and fall of the Roman Empire would be the model I would look to.
MountainRaven
05-03-15, 17:57
The decline and fall of the Roman Empire would be the model I would look to.
So we have another thousand years, give or take?
Or are we going to change our system of government to that of an empire and then start our slow decay over the next 1500-ish years?
So we have another thousand years, give or take?
Or are we going to change our system of government to that of an empire and then start our slow decay over the next 1500-ish years?
We have to much waste right now to ever become an " empire."
Business_Casual
05-03-15, 20:29
We have to much waste right now to ever become an " empire."
By any definition of empire, how does our current state not qualify?
@Fjallhrafn, everything is inexact in the social sciences, but I wouldn't be shocked to see another 100 years of status quoish decline. Look at Britain, WWI effectively rendered them incapable of maintaining their empire, but it dragged on for decades and they are still a independent nuclear power with a top five economy...
The decline and fall of the Roman Empire would be the model I would look to.
We are not, nor have we ever been an empire. Empires seek to expand and conquer. We don't do that.
IF EVER PROOF WERE NEEDED THAT WE FOUGHT FOR A CAUSE AND NOT FOR CONQUEST, IT COULD BE FOUND IN THESE CEMETERIES. HERE WAS OUR ONLY CONQUEST: ALL WE ASKED … WAS ENOUGH … SOIL IN WHICH TO BURY OUR GALLANT DEAD.
General Mark W. Clark
VooDoo6Actual
05-03-15, 21:37
We are not, nor have we ever been an empire. Empires seek to expand and conquer. We don't do that.
Best & funniest one I have heard lately. Completely disagree & copius empirical evidence does not support your statement.
Thanks for the good laughs.
Eurodriver
05-03-15, 21:47
IF EVER PROOF WERE NEEDED THAT WE FOUGHT FOR A CAUSE AND NOT FOR CONQUEST, IT COULD BE FOUND IN THESE CEMETERIES. HERE WAS OUR ONLY CONQUEST: ALL WE ASKED … WAS ENOUGH … SOIL IN WHICH TO BURY OUR GALLANT DEAD.
General Mark W. Clark
Sounds good on the wall at Normandy.
...doesn't really explain what we were doing out west for about a hundred years, however.
MountainRaven
05-03-15, 21:55
Well, we are an empire. Of a sort.
The thing is that we pretty much stopped once we reached the Pacific Ocean and ran out of "savages" to steal land from.
SomeOtherGuy
05-03-15, 22:03
By any definition of empire, how does our current state not qualify?
@Fjallhrafn, everything is inexact in the social sciences, but I wouldn't be shocked to see another 100 years of status quoish decline. Look at Britain, WWI effectively rendered them incapable of maintaining their empire, but it dragged on for decades and they are still a independent nuclear power with a top five economy...
My feelings as well.
The US was full-on empire building from the civil war through WWII. Just for example, the Dominican Republic was supposed to become a US state but its membership was not approved by Congress. The Philippines were a US territory treated almost like a state for multiple decades, to the extent that court cases of the Philippines district court (I have to look up the exact name) have showed up in my legal research under US case law. Post-WWII the US has not done conventional empire building, but has done something arguably better, a sort of franchise and satellite system.
Empires don't usually fall overnight. The Western Roman Empire was in decay for centuries before the Gauls sacked Rome. The Eastern Roman Empire continued for another 1000 years - gradually declining in power and area, but mighty still for much of that time.
Without a doubt the US is an empire, and is in decline. I can argue that our peak was in 1940, or 1945, or 1970, but all peaks I can argue for are in the distant past.
Well, we are an empire. Of a sort.
The thing is that we pretty much stopped once we reached the Pacific Ocean and ran out of "savages" to steal land from.
And those people took it from who? While there were definitely some "land grabs" involved, we gained a lot of territory because somebody lost a war or made a deal. Once we became a union, we never really graduated to empire.
Russia is an empire, when they roll in tanks, they are pretty much there to stay and don't give a damn about how you feel about it. The US isn't perfect, but we put a lot of asses on the line keeping the USSR on their side of the Iron Curtain during the Cold War and it's not because Germany, Austria and Italy were "client states." They also weren't sending us "tributes" for our protective services, mostly just high priced German autos and Italian cheeses.
Matthew 24 =====> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24&version=HCSB
Best & funniest one I have heard lately. Completely disagree & copius empirical evidence does not support your statement.
Thanks for the good laughs.
Sounds good on the wall at Normandy.
...doesn't really explain what we were doing out west for about a hundred years, however.
Poor choice of words on my part. I'm speaking of the modern (20th century and on) U.S. I admit the Indians would have viewed us as an empire. Hell, even the Mexicans probably did as well. We don't currently fit the definition of an empire, and haven't for over a century. We aren't out planting our flag in foreign lands and ruling over them. If anything we are a hegemon. We spread our ideas and influence through political, economic, and military means. But we don't lord over other nations the way an empire would do.
Averageman
05-03-15, 22:32
And those people took it from who? While there were definitely some "land grabs" involved, we gained a lot of territory because somebody lost a war or made a deal. Once we became a union, we never really graduated to empire.
Russia is an empire, when they roll in tanks, they are pretty much there to stay and don't give a damn about how you feel about it. The US isn't perfect, but we put a lot of asses on the line keeping the USSR on their side of the Iron Curtain during the Cold War and it's not because Germany, Austria and Italy were "client states." They also weren't sending us "tributes" for our protective services, mostly just high priced German autos and Italian cheeses.
I'm reading Andrew Jackson's Biography right now. I think guys like Jefferson had the best of intentions, but then when someone offers you the Louisiana purchase at rock bottom prices, and then you have "The Monroe Doctrine" a couple of decades later, you have to ask if it was intended or we just stumbled in to an Empire?
On the other hand what we had here in America was at the perfect time and place for just such a thing to happen.
We might have started off looking for the perfect Republic, the next thing you know we are the worlds Industrial and Agricultural leader.
I think we had the best of intentions, sometimes we got sidetracked by scoundrels, but we lead the way for the world.
The Marshall Plan might be looked at as Monroe "lite", or "We don't want to run your show, we just wanna make damned sure the Russkies dont".
I'm reading Andrew Jackson's Biography right now. I think guys like Jefferson had the best of intentions, but then when someone offers you the Louisiana purchase at rock bottom prices, and then you have "The Monroe Doctrine" a couple of decades later, you have to ask if it was intended or we just stumbled in to an Empire?
On the other hand what we had here in America was at the perfect time and place for just such a thing to happen.
We might have started off looking for the perfect Republic, the next thing you know we are the worlds Industrial and Agricultural leader.
I think we had the best of intentions, sometimes we got sidetracked by scoundrels, but we lead the way for the world.
The Marshall Plan might be looked at as Monroe "lite", or "We don't want to run your show, we just wanna make damned sure the Russkies dont".
I doubt very much Germany viewed The Marshall Plan or things like The Berlin Airlift as imperialistic actions. I don't recall any Solidarity movements popping up in places like Austria. The closest we've come to anything like "imperialism" is NATO and that was an alliance. We never forced Sweden to join.
Business_Casual
05-04-15, 05:52
I doubt very much Germany viewed The Marshall Plan or things like The Berlin Airlift as imperialistic actions. I don't recall any Solidarity movements popping up in places like Austria. The closest we've come to anything like "imperialism" is NATO and that was an alliance. We never forced Sweden to join.
Would it surprise you that Rome formed alliances and sent aid, erm, I mean tribute to other powers. Often out of expediency. And that businesses men and administration types travelled with and lived in the garrisons...
Averageman
05-04-15, 08:53
I doubt very much Germany viewed The Marshall Plan or things like The Berlin Airlift as imperialistic actions. I don't recall any Solidarity movements popping up in places like Austria. The closest we've come to anything like "imperialism" is NATO and that was an alliance. We never forced Sweden to join.
I'm sure that's valid, however as I said the best defense we had at the Marshall Plan and no to no small degree, The Marshall Plan was in our own best interests.
We certainly did not want to "take" all of Germany, France and Italy, but our only way to stop it was to prop these places up with money and the presense of US Troops and Arms.
We didn't take land or impose or form of government, but we did greatly expand our sphere of influence and open markets to that part of the world.
Our place as a world power was greatly improved by these actions.
VooDoo6Actual
05-04-15, 09:56
Poor choice of words on my part. I'm speaking of the modern (20th century and on) U.S. I admit the Indians would have viewed us as an empire. Hell, even the Mexicans probably did as well. We don't currently fit the definition of an empire, and haven't for over a century. We aren't out planting our flag in foreign lands and ruling over them. If anything we are a hegemon. We spread our ideas and influence through political, economic, and military means. But we don't lord over other nations the way an empire would do.
I cogitiated & grappled on whether or not to give an expanded compendium & number of citations. I opted not to post a Magnus opus on the topic & keep with the spirit of a decent discussion thus far. I'll keep it simple & I noticed you seem to at least be intellectually honest & not attempting to play semantics thus far.
I'm going to use your very own words. Be advised, Your going to have your work cut out for you using your very own words to convince me otherwise or make any traction to the contrary.
El Cid writes:
"We spread our ideas and influence through political, economic, and military means. But we don't lord over other nations the way an empire would do."
really ?
citation source:
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/American_Empire
"American Empire is a term relating to the political, economic, military and cultural influence of the United States."
Also for your perusal are these salient discussion points:
El Cid writes:
"But we don't lord over other nations the way an empire would do"
Really ?
1) President James K. Polk reasserts the 1823 Monroe Doctrine (aka re-brands it "Manifest Destiny") and calls for aggressive American expansion into the West.
2) The parallels between the contemporary American Empire and the late Roman Republic are blatantly apparent. Rome's internal regime was also a kind of Democracy. Rome had a circle of close and privileged Latin allies, which resembles the relationship the U.S. maintains with four other Anglo-Saxon countries -- Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand (aka notice it's the 5 Eyes).
3) Then there is a Vassal State aka "Sateliite Nations" issues or what I prefer to call a "Proxy Whore". Using economic influence & control via foreign aid & or sanctions (whether they be economic or trade et al etc. (It is what it is & obvious, nuff said)
4) Military Influence that encompasses at one point over 1,000+ Military bases that now somewhere just over 800+ MIL bases using "Full Spectrum Domination" for Freedom & Democracy. lol....
5) History affirms the CIA has a contemporary pedigree & "CV" of numerous of countries victimized by this tactic that have been destabilized and / or COUP's to control the above said proxy whore eh, "Satellite nations" (lol) relationship. Using all of your methods above to accomplish their efficacy. Don't think I need to elaborate further unless you want me to.
6) NGO's (i.e. UNESCO / USAID aka Cash Cows for the IMF's / World Bank's balance sheets & think MONSANTO GMO's food control) are those pesky little entities (that sound good to the uneducated) for their Tag Line but in reality we see their real intent of control or influence are the tools of choice used etc. Many people, generally never look past the veil of deception to see or dissect & distill their real purpose.
7) Using your words again "We spread our ideas and influence" (indeed we do & I agree w/ you). I'm pretty sure but a PsyOp has a key component in it called influence at least from my training & service w/ D0S. I also was trained in & have numerous OCONUS experience in (TIE) Target, Infiltrate Exploit. (nuff said) No matter what all Humans need $ to survive. Or State supplied Heroin which is food, water, medical, health services etc. which is a seperate topic on how that functions for control (i.e SNAP, Welfare, Immigration / Refugee (lol) , medicare / medicaid, Job assistance, Section 8 / HUD et alia perks). BTW, the USD was & still is for now at least the Heroin of choice that the US pimped. This great increase in Uncle Sam's heroin (USD) was done subtly & sub rosa w/o most Americans ever making the nexxus after WWll which of course was the Bretton Woods agreement (1944) which created the USD as the World's Reserve Currency. Next by design (;-/) came legalized media Propaganda / Agitprop used against Russia 1947. Notice we are seeing the same today legalized propaganda as I said more than 2 years ago here that many are still not even aware of the Smith Mundt Modernization Act of 2012. Notice the Cold War again is on like Donkey Kong.
Bonus citations:
First popularized during the presidency of James K. Polk, the concept of an American Empire was made a reality throughout the latter half of the 1800s
Source: Boundless. “American Imperialism.” Boundless U.S. History. Boundless, 14 Nov. 2014. Retrieved 04 May. 2015 from https://www.boundless.com/u-s-history/textbooks/boundless-u-s-history-textbook/race-empire-and-culture-in-the-gilded-age-1870-1900-21/war-empire-and-an-emerging-american-world-power-164/american-imperialism-896-3410/
It quacks like a Duck, it looks like a Duck, it walks like a Duck, it swims like a Duck & but apparently it's a Pink Flamingo ?
Q.E. D or something I missed ?
Doc Safari
05-04-15, 10:24
The term "civil war" is thrown about haphazardly these days, as if what we are going through now could even remotely end up with states seceding from the union and some sort of unified force opposing the government as they did in 1861.
This is a very different country than it was in the 1860's or even the 1960's. If anything, the country is divided into ethnic/political/religious factions held together by the fact that things generally do work. If the economy ever tanks so that basic things fail (such as the ability for people to feed themselves), then you will see a civil war, but it will be more like Yugoslavia coming apart than the original American Civil War.
Smart strategy is in getting out of the big cities and finding ways to not depend on things society provides to sustain you.
The term "civil war" is thrown about haphazardly these days, as if what we are going through now could even remotely end up with states seceding from the union and some sort of unified force opposing the government as they did in 1861.
This is a very different country than it was in the 1860's or even the 1960's. If anything, the country is divided into ethnic/political/religious factions held together by the fact that things generally do work. If the economy ever tanks so that basic things fail (such as the ability for people to feed themselves), then you will see a civil war, but it will be more like Yugoslavia coming apart than the original American Civil War.
Smart strategy is in getting out of the big cities and finding ways to not depend on things society provides to sustain you.
Very good points. I was thinking a Beirut in the 1980's with a multidue of factions hitting for power but your Yugoslavia reference works also.
Eurodriver
05-04-15, 12:08
I don't know how close or far a second Civil War is - but I can say with certainty I hope it never comes.
That wretched Sherman had nothing on what the modern left will do.
Poor choice of words on my part. I'm speaking of the modern (20th century and on) U.S. I admit the Indians would have viewed us as an empire. Hell, even the Mexicans probably did as well. We don't currently fit the definition of an empire, and haven't for over a century. We aren't out planting our flag in foreign lands and ruling over them. If anything we are a hegemon. We spread our ideas and influence through political, economic, and military means. But we don't lord over other nations the way an empire would do.
Understood and agreed.
That wretched Sherman had nothing on what the modern left will do.
Keep up that kind of talk and you may see it faster than you expect.......... :nono:
Since when is doing your job VERY well a character flaw? Mediocre people are always upset with those that excel at what they do.
Mediocre people are always upset with those that excel at what they do.
I believe that this statement applies to a lot of situations.
Very well said.
MountainRaven
05-04-15, 14:16
Keep up that kind of talk and you may see it faster than you expect.......... :nono:
Since when is doing your job VERY well a character flaw? Mediocre people are always upset with those that excel at what they do.
He's just upset that Sherman wasn't a Marine.
He's just upset that Sherman wasn't a Marine.
None of my family are..... ;)
Grand58742
07-31-18, 07:57
Why do I feel this will not end well for either side?
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/07/antifa-groups-calling-for-direct-confrontation-during-free-speech-rally-next-weekend-members-discuss-bringing-guns/
Over the past year and a half, Portland has become a hotbed of clashes between the pro-Trump group “Patriot Prayer” and Antifa. On August 4, Patriot Prayer will be holding another free speech rally and Antifa organizations are calling for “direct confrontation.”
These rallies and counter protests have repeatedly become violent and bloody, and this time, Oregon Antifa are discussing bringing guns.
“Rose City Antifa has continued their great work of doxxing the Portland area Proud Boys involved in this violence, and is also calling for militant antifascist resistance against Patriot Prayer,” a call to action published to the militant leftist website It’s Going Down states.
In a statement provided to IGD, a spokesperson for Rose City Antifa said that the goal of August’s action will be to “show that the community will not allow violent nationalist opportunists to threaten our city and target our people. We will overwhelm them both by force of numbers and commitment to defending our community. Whatever it takes.”
The call to action urged readers to use “direct confrontation” to “eliminate” Patriot Prayer and the Proud Boys’ ability to hold rallies. Neither of the groups are white nationalists, but that didn’t stop Antifa from demanding that they are to inflame tensions.
In a discussion about the event that was uncovered by journalist Tim Pool, members of Antifa discussed the need to bring guns to protest.
Averageman
07-31-18, 08:12
I've gone to YouTube and watched maybe ten of the video's concerning the Proud Boys, Patriot Prayer and Antifa clashes out of the North West States.
Different demonstrations, different places and times and the same couple characters always end up in the action. I'm not sure if it is because they post the video's they are making, or they are leaders of these groups, but the players are all well known on YouTube.
Honestly, I've seen better fighters in Junior High School. Usually these clashes are brought on by some loud mouth chick who knows She's not going to take an ass whipping from some guy she's out to enrage, but the skinny hippy antifa guy standing next to her is going to get KTFO.
Yep, just the place to bring a gun.....stupid people.
Grand58742
07-31-18, 08:19
I've gone to YouTube and watched maybe ten of the video's concerning the Proud Boys, Patriot Prayer and Antifa clashes out of the North West States.
Different demonstrations, different places and times and the same couple characters always end up in the action. I'm not sure if it is because they post the video's they are making, or they are leaders of these groups, but the players are all well known on YouTube.
Honestly, I've seen better fighters in Junior High School. Usually these clashes are brought on by some loud mouth chick who knows She's not going to take an ass whipping from some guy she's out to enrage, but the skinny hippy antifa guy standing next to her is going to get KTFO.
Yep, just the place to bring a gun.....stupid people.
The problem is the damned if they do/damned if they don't situation.
Even if the PD or PP were completely on the defensive and justified, the media will spin it as them being the aggressors once the first defensive firearm comes out. They could all be slaughtered and antifa would be shown as the "victims" of the situation.
Averageman
07-31-18, 08:34
The problem is the damned if they do/damned if they don't situation.
Even if the PD or PP were completely on the defensive and justified, the media will spin it as them being the aggressors once the first defensive firearm comes out. They could all be slaughtered and antifa would be shown as the "victims" of the situation.
Well I would guess the smartest and safest thing to do would be to stay home.
Large groups of people who are emotionally driven meeting on the streets to do battle is going to be bad, bringing guns is just going to make it worse.
Even if you say "I didn't start the fight.", but you showed up to be there, you're just wrong, showing up with a weapon, you're just more wrong.
I've yet to see a group of angry conservatives burn down their neighborhoods and loot the local stores. The Left plays that card at every opportunity.
Any conservative movement or gathering of conservative minds will be painted as racist. If not immediately, give it a minute. Even if the group is for good and doing good things it will soon be infiltrated by bad individuals.
It's just not worth it. The only "group" I belong to is my Church.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-31-18, 10:28
These are the kind of things that foreign entities would love to fan the flames of. A couple of agitators there- or just winding people up on social media, not that they need to do much since there are plenty of native idiots could cause a lot of damage. Frankly, the who 'Russian' thing is being played by domestic political entities trying to get a political advantage. The left knows that they can pummel the right with "RUSSIANS". That lack of clear vision on the 'bi-partisan' nature of Russian programs plays into and amplifies that Russian programs, while reducing the ability to curtail them.
At what point should I start trying to organize some sort of local citizen defense force? I'm at the point where I'm asking with like 90% seriousness.
I mean, I've frequently derided my state's "militia" groups as a bunch of fat redneck dopes and so forth, because the "citizen militia" idea seems to be one that is always executed poorly. All this unrest and civil war talk though has me wondering if the idea can be executed properly, and if there is any validity to it as a legitimate means of safeguarding a community during a crisis.
From my perspective one of the big mistakes made with militias is trying to make them too "military" in appearance and structure. Perhaps something more along the lines of an amped-up neighborhood watch vs guys in ACUs and Punisher skull patches running around the woods.
Doc Safari
07-31-18, 11:13
At what point should I start trying to organize some sort of local citizen defense force? I'm at the point where I'm asking with like 90% seriousness.
I mean, I've frequently derided my state's "militia" groups as a bunch of fat redneck dopes and so forth, because the "citizen militia" idea seems to be one that is always executed poorly. All this unrest and civil war talk though has me wondering if the idea can be executed properly, and if there is any validity to it as a legitimate means of safeguarding a community during a crisis.
From my perspective one of the big mistakes made with militias is trying to make them too "military" in appearance and structure. Perhaps something more along the lines of an amped-up neighborhood watch vs guys in ACUs and Punisher skull patches running around the woods.
Do you trust your neighbors that much? I don't. Half the people in this neighborhood would be the people banging on the door to get supplies if the SHTF.
Do you trust your neighbors that much? I don't. Half the people in this neighborhood would be the people banging on the door to get supplies if the SHTF.
Currently no, although I might put forth the notion that if one's nieghbors were included as part of a mutual defense/aid "group" of some kind from the outset, being part of a pre-existing support network *might* make them less likely to feel compelled to resort to busting in to steal other people's stuff.
Or perhaps not, depends on the people I guess.
I'm just wondering if it even could be done right period or is it just an idea doomed to fail? I mean, I really don't know, there might be some decent, competent militias out there, I'm just not really aware of any.
I have a core group of five range buds that have discussed this.
All are accomplished shots with some woodscraft/hunting skills. Two are docs.
We shoot a "match" each Friday; AR's, handguns, precision rifles. We have been doing this for 5 or 6 years.
I am intimately familiar with their strengths and weakness, as they are of mine.
With the neighbors I have, there is NO Way I would trust my ass with any of them.
My range buds are a different story.
Averageman
07-31-18, 12:38
A loose organisation of friends is probably much better than any militia.
The U.S. Civil War was fought by two groups of governments banded together in a like cause. Each individual state sent armies of their own to fight. Sure, you had individuals join up on either side, but it was still organized like a government army. Each side was primarily led by veteran Army officers.
This current unpleasantness is small groups of individuals fighting for some convoluted idea that is constantly changing. For those, like my dad, who were around in the 60's this current crop of unrest is really no big deal. Even with social media behind it, neither side has exactly drummed up any real support. The protests are still much smaller than the ones 50 years ago and it's not like the National Guard has shot anybody at a college recently. What we now have is a group of middle aged people that are too young to remember the 60's and think these current issues are the beginning of something far greater than it really is.
MountainRaven
07-31-18, 13:30
I've gone to YouTube and watched maybe ten of the video's concerning the Proud Boys, Patriot Prayer and Antifa clashes out of the North West States.
Different demonstrations, different places and times and the same couple characters always end up in the action. I'm not sure if it is because they post the video's they are making, or they are leaders of these groups, but the players are all well known on YouTube.
Honestly, I've seen better fighters in Junior High School. Usually these clashes are brought on by some loud mouth chick who knows She's not going to take an ass whipping from some guy she's out to enrage, but the skinny hippy antifa guy standing next to her is going to get KTFO.
Yep, just the place to bring a gun.....stupid people.
I wonder how many of them are agents provocateur, bought and paid for by the FBI, Russia, Red China, &c.
Averageman
07-31-18, 13:55
I wonder how many of them are agents provocateur, bought and paid for by the FBI, Russia, Red China, &c.
We know for sure that Soros funds some of these groups.
I think there are a few key people in the groups that keep showing up again.
Yeah more than a few undercover and a few paid provocateurs.
sundance435
07-31-18, 13:57
I loved the show "Jericho" and, at least in my mind, the first season pretty accurately captures what I think would happen in a societal breakdown. They had a core of strong leaders that were able to band the town together and continue to provide a measure of order, which would be imperative, unless you're ready now to go it alone - not considering the impracticality of that. The first season shows a modern society "back to basics" - bartering/trading, defending against a stronger enemy, pooling resources, etc.
I loved the show "Jericho" and, at least in my mind, the first season pretty accurately captures what I think would happen in a societal breakdown. They had a core of strong leaders that were able to band the town together and continue to provide a measure of order, which would be imperative, unless you're ready now to go it alone - not considering the impracticality of that. The first season shows a modern society "back to basics" - bartering/trading, defending against a stronger enemy, pooling resources, etc.Not that Jericho was perfect, but it did a decent job of exploring the dynamics we'd likely see in that type scenario.
Colony has also done a decent job of dealing with an "overlord" resistance/collaborator situation.
1. Conservatives amp it up on social media- talk about ahowing up with guns and knifes “down with antifa” and all that.
2. Day of the rally, no conservatives show up
3. Multiple calls to law enforcement about angry crowd (antifa) with guns
4. Watch it unfold on TV.
Thoughts?
RetroRevolver77
07-31-18, 20:41
1. Conservatives amp it up on social media- talk about ahowing up with guns and knifes “down with antifa” and all that.
2. Day of the rally, no conservatives show up
3. Multiple calls to law enforcement about angry crowd (antifa) with guns
4. Watch it unfold on TV.
Thoughts?
It will look something like this, after years of torment the Conservatives will finally take back what is theirs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_ss1NqzjxI
As something of a latecomer to “Jericho” I found it very thought-provoking. Probably too much for some.
antifa could kill a bunch of innocent folks with guns that are illegal gotten sure some are criminals not allowed to own etc.. and the press will blame the right for provoking them and saying they were just protecting themselves from the radical dangerous right wing trump people
sadly this is where we are today
The_War_Wagon
07-31-18, 21:38
Do you trust your neighbors that much? I don't. Half the people in this neighborhood would be the people banging on the door to get supplies if the SHTF.
That would be MY neighborhood, and - I suspect - MOST urban/suburban neighborhoods in America today.
Start small - organize a "Neighborhood Watch," and see what THAT gets you. Sit down, meet & greet your neighbors, find out what they're ACTUALLY like, going in with no expectations. You MIGHT dumb-luck into a whole block full of retired 10th Mountain Rangers in the process. MORE than likely (especially in the city), you'll run into a buncha people whose kids & grandkids all smoke pot, and no matter how nice their parents/grandparents, THEY wouldn't think twice of stealing your car. Or guns. And if you're REALLY lucky, you'll find ONE guy (or gal) with useful skills, a modicum of tools, and a decent head on their shoulders. And that's one MORE you can count among this group.
A loose organisation of friends is probably much better than any militia.
Mr. Goodtimes
07-31-18, 22:25
Does anyone think we may be close to an actual civil war? Is it possible that a leftist rebel army could organize from these riots and attempt an armed takeover of this country?
God I sure hope so.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
1. Conservatives amp it up on social media- talk about ahowing up with guns and knifes “down with antifa” and all that.
2. Day of the rally, no conservatives show up
3. Multiple calls to law enforcement about angry crowd (antifa) with guns
4. Watch it unfold on TV.
Thoughts?
This basically happened with the Oathkeepers, Maxine Waters and the Black Panthers. The media declared the Oathkeepers nazi cowards and the Black Panthers patriotic victors.
The media is on the liberal side, nothing will change that. Every day, though, the internet makes traditional media less powerful.
Andy
This basically happened with the Oathkeepers, Maxine Waters and the Black Panthers. The media declared the Oathkeepers nazi cowards and the Black Panthers patriotic victors.
The media is on the liberal side, nothing will change that. Every day, though, the internet makes traditional media less powerful.
Andy
worth the read...
https://oathkeepers.org/2018/07/oath-keepers-call-to-action-protest-terrorist-inciter-maxine-waters-thursday-july-19/
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-01-18, 10:56
Shapiro is talking about it now:
https://youtu.be/0m1EH2Kmn4w
God I sure hope so.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
At the rate we are going it will be the only way we can get rid of those people and get America back on track.
Agree totally.
The days of correcting the "problem" from within the system are lang past. System is too broken.
A monumental "correction" from the population itself is all that will alter the course we are currently on.
I rather doubt that will happen however.
And I fear the longer we wait, the fewer the willing participants., which certainly plays in the Lefts favor.
worth the read...
https://oathkeepers.org/2018/07/oath-keepers-call-to-action-protest-terrorist-inciter-maxine-waters-thursday-july-19/
That was an interesting read, but I already had a clear understanding of the Oathkeepers intent.
Andy
Shapiro is talking about it now:
https://youtu.be/0m1EH2Kmn4w Ben has great content and I listen to his stuff daily. However, much like the "other" side, Ben doesn't have a job if he isn't stirring up shit.
At the rate we are going it will be the only way we can get rid of those people and get America back on track. Get rid of what people? I know what you mean, but how do we define it? The "right" can't even come up with a unified vision. I know what my vision is, and it doesn't even match my wife's 100%. Do we purge folks because they aren't in lockstep with 90%, 80% or even 50% of what we believe in? Remember that this country was founded by a bunch of guys that couldn't agree and we fought a bloody civil war the first time by people that had more in common than they were different.
RetroRevolver77
08-01-18, 12:27
Ben has great content and I listen to his stuff daily. However, much like the "other" side, Ben doesn't have a job if he isn't stirring up shit.
Get rid of what people? I know what you mean, but how do we define it? The "right" can't even come up with a unified vision. I know what my vision is, and it doesn't even match my wife's 100%. Do we purge folks because they aren't in lockstep with 90%, 80% or even 50% of what we believe in? Remember that this country was founded by a bunch of guys that couldn't agree and we fought a bloody civil war the first time by people that had more in common than they were different.
Well for one we can purge the dead and illegals from the DNC voter rolls. That's something I think anyone who is "Conservative" can agree on.
Read it, gained no insight. Read any article about the Oathkeeper/Black Panther/Maxine Waters protest/cancellation in the liberal media, the gist is exactly what I said.
Andy
Dude, my apologies!!!!!!! I meant to actually link this one: https://oathkeepers.org/2018/07/stewart-rhodes-livestream-video-addresses-the-maxine-waters-protest/
Averageman
08-01-18, 12:47
We've lost touch with reality.
When I was a kid I used to watch these old football highlight shows. They would show these massive guys like Dick Butkus and Ray Nitckski walk out on the frozen turf of Lambo Field and play a game. Even as a kid it would piss me off when they would compare that game to Soldiers doing battle. I knew better than that, even at that time. Football aint war and war isn't football. Fast forward almost fifty years.
Your average American doesn't know a yet and isn't likely related to one. Unlike earlier generations when Grandpa fought in WWII and your Uncles fought in Korea and your Dad and cousins all went to Viet Nam, we as a population in 2018 are relatively disconnected from violence and we are certainly disconnected to war, warriors and the wounded and combat deaths.
For cooler heads to prevail and common sense enter the discussion, people need to be brought back to the reality of what war, combat and death in combat really is. It aint Football btw and if these guys are going to mutually agree to meet in the streets and take advantage of Free Speech and the Right to Assemble and turn it in to a riot and then mass violence and then a big gun fight, that's pretty stupid. My only advice would be "You and the ones you love should stay home."
If this plays out and this goes bad in the worst possible way, nobody is going to "Win" and there will be more calls for less freedoms because clearly the people are doing well with the ones they have.
Time and time again on these pages we've read "Stupid should Hurt.", it's almost a mantra here, but one of the next most repeated things here has been "You can't Fix Stupid." so, the natural thing to do would be to prevent personal involvement but understand maybe if we can't stop, slow or prevent this, perhaps it is necessary. Like the puppy who left a mess in the middle of the floor, if you cant learn the nice way, I will have to rub your nose in this until you understand.
I may defend the rights people have to be Free, but I certainly don't have to respect the way they choose to express those freedoms.
If those in the Media and in Politics continue to fan the flames, they need to be put in check.
telecustom
08-01-18, 13:25
Fortunately (or unfortunately), the tactic of the Left is to regulate out (make illegal) the Right's means maintain life as we know it. The Left doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to actually fight real battles. They use the legal system to control others.
As long as they control the media and the ability to apply force (weapons of any kind), they will continue to destroy this nation.
1. Conservatives amp it up on social media- talk about ahowing up with guns and knifes “down with antifa” and all that.
2. Day of the rally, no conservatives show up
3. Multiple calls to law enforcement about angry crowd (antifa) with guns
4. Watch it unfold on TV.
Thoughts?
ditto others
and would be spun as the antifa patriots kept away nazi trump people !
At the rate we are going it will be the only way we can get rid of those people and get America back on track.
I've been saying it for months...
It's going to suck, but in the end, it will be worth it to bring back the Republic.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-01-18, 14:45
Fortunately (or unfortunately), the tactic of the Left is to regulate out (make illegal) the Right's means maintain life as we know it. The Left doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to actually fight real battles. They use the legal system to control others.
As long as they control the media and the ability to apply force (weapons of any kind), they will continue to destroy this nation.
Passive aggressive virtue signaling with laws that chip away at individual rights for the good of the collective. Get enough people on the bread and circus plan and those left will be fed to the lions. The GOP has fianlly clued in that they can rob the piggy bank to pay for their agenda and with out any restraint on govt spending, the debt service will suffocate the budget. Infalting our way out will just keep that cycle going until services stop coming, and then that collective conspiracy will lead to a French Revo model. Crap gets real about 2035 when the whole economic engine just starts sputtering.
We've lost touch with reality.
When I was a kid I used to watch these old football highlight shows. They would show these massive guys like Dick Butkus and Ray Nitckski walk out on the frozen turf of Lambo Field and play a game. Even as a kid it would piss me off when they would compare that game to Soldiers doing battle. I knew better than that, even at that time. Football aint war and war isn't football. Fast forward almost fifty years.
Your average American doesn't know a yet and isn't likely related to one. Unlike earlier generations when Grandpa fought in WWII and your Uncles fought in Korea and your Dad and cousins all went to Viet Nam, we as a population in 2018 are relatively disconnected from violence and we are certainly disconnected to war, warriors and the wounded and combat deaths.
.
Since professional sports are the "civilized western society" version of gladiatorial combat, it makes sense that Americans or other westerners, who are rather removed from the concept of what a real warrior and real combat is, would glom on to athletes as warrior surrogates. Because while collectively we are strangers to the warrior culture and the attendant bloodshed and violence, we are still an inherently violent species and need it, either directly or vicariously. Enter the posturing, swaggering street thug turned football star to become the hero our culture apparently needs.
I've been saying it for months...
It's going to suck, but in the end, it will be worth it to bring back the Republic.
I keep saying this because I keep not being able to shake my concerns, but I'm very afraid of this current slow burn to an inevitable boiling point we've got going on now. I'm afraid when it does finally boil over it's going to be thirty or forty years from now and I'm going to be old and helpless and at the mercy of whatever faction decides to seize the street I live on that day.
I don't want to fight a civil war, but if we are going to have one, I'd rather it be when I can still actually fight, and I'm not getting any younger....
RetroRevolver77
08-01-18, 15:32
I keep saying this because I keep not being able to shake my concerns, but I'm very afraid of this current slow burn to an inevitable boiling point we've got going on now. I'm afraid when it does finally boil over it's going to be thirty or forty years from now and I'm going to be old and helpless and at the mercy of whatever faction decides to seize the street I live on that day.
I don't want to fight a civil war, but if we are going to have one, I'd rather it be when I can still actually fight, and I'm not getting any younger....
Thirty years from now? How about our voice will no longer matter after the next Democrat majority. They'll just give 40 million illegals the right to vote and our viewpoints no longer matter. Plus every time they give birth, their precious newborns whose parents are in the country illegally- get to become citizens by default. They'll breed right past any opposition all courtesy of the US taxpayer. Keep working, tens of millions of socialists are depending on you.
Majority of Democrats: Illegal Aliens Should be Given the Right to Vote.
https://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/07/31/majority-of-democrats-illegal-aliens-should-be-given-the-right-to-vote/
So where is the line then? I hear this talk by many, "Sooner rather than later, while I'm still young...". But where is your line to be drawn in the sand? What is the starting point? When do you quit talking and act?
It is such a shitty situation to be in right now. We are comfortable and watching the slow degradation of our society and our country happen before our very eyes, yet we just sit back on the internet and "talk". We find reasons to divide ourselves further. We are too complacent. Too comfortable.
The way that things are slowly grinding, we will never act. Only if a spark/event that is so egregious to us will we unite and act.
So what is that?
We aren't a republic anymore.
We don't really have any of the Rights codified in the Bill of Rights anymore.
We rent our property.
We pay for 1/2 the nation to live and the rest of the world to be protected.
Our .gov has driven us into insurmountable debt with no vision to stop going negative anytime.
We are living in a 1985 meets brave new world nightmare.
The worlds governments are heavily influenced if not bought and paid in full by an elite few that band together against the masses.
Our own media is working to tighten the noose.
Our LEO's and Politicians go against their oath's and the Constitution daily with enforcing unconstitutional laws.
What the fvck needs to happen short of someone coming to our doors to get us to act.
We need a renaissance of thought and of action. Virtuous men willing to shed blood and shake this false sense of safety and comfort to do what is right.
In this technological age, it can't be individuals, it has to be groups of men with influence, money, power and the will/fortitude to take action.
Most are afraid to even discuss it on an open forum, or even in person.
So it's going to continue. The path we are on isn't changing, it ebbs and flows but invariably goes in a terrible direction.
Until each of us is real with ourselves and one another and we unite behind a common goal, nothing will happen.
I don't want armed conflict. I want us to organize and work together to rise up in a non-violent fashion. If violence becomes necessary based on the actions of others against us, so be it.
Or we can all just keep typing and wasting away and watch generation after generation get indoctrinated and stray further away from the ideals embodied in our founding until we are no longer the last great hope, but just another shit stain on this planet.
It will all fall apart eventually, and it will all start over again for better or worse.
I am having a real issue with allowing what is just and right and what was fought and died for to be killed off in committees and legislatures. It breaks my heart.
So where is the line then? I hear this talk by many, "Sooner rather than later, while I'm still young...". But where is your line to be drawn in the sand? What is the starting point? When do you quit talking and act?
.
Those are great questions that deserve great answers, and I don't have them...
Averageman
08-01-18, 16:45
Perhaps not knowing what to do at this point is natural, maybe it's more important to know what not to do.
I don't think the idea of facing down antifa in the streets when they are calling for their members to come armed is a smart one.
I think the smarter thing would be to expose them in order to flip the narrative.
If someone really wanted to engage them, they would probably be better of just observing them, collecting Intel if you can, and trying to bring them down when they don't expect it.
One could try to infiltrate them, and then expose them?
Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk
They’d likely smell my contempt and hatred.
Couldn’t do the infiltration thing.
Dude, my apologies!!!!!!! I meant to actually link this one: https://oathkeepers.org/2018/07/stewart-rhodes-livestream-video-addresses-the-maxine-waters-protest/
The apology is mine for the tone of my post, which I have edited and hopefully sound like less of a dork (or similar word).
Reasonable people with the ability to think for themselves understand the Oathkeepers represented no threat to mad max or the U.S. Government. That doesn't fit the script of the MSM, so they run "editorials" stating blatant lies that idiots believe.
Andy
Perhaps not knowing what to do at this point is natural, maybe it's more important to know what not to do.
I don't think the idea of facing down antifa in the streets when they are calling for their members to come armed is a smart one.
I think the smarter thing would be to expose them in order to flip the narrative.
We will never flip the narrative. The MSM will always hide ANTIFAs misdeeds no matter how hard we scream. Just look up the Crowder video where he had Not Gay Jared infiltrate a small ANTIFA group who gave him a shank and said they had a shot gun and AK in the car. Jared made an excuse that he has to take a dump and ran the hell away. Crowder asked the MSM guys that were there to cover the Ben Shapiro speetch that ATIFA was protesting. The news guys didn't give a crap at all.
No, we will never control the narrative again. Everything will have to be done by force. As stated above, I just hope it happens while I'm "young". I'm only 35, play hockey and lift 4 to 5 days a week. I can fight now, in 35 years? I doubt it.
See first line of sigline...
Nothing else really matters.
That includes having some really hard conversations no-one wants to have with people you [hope you can] trust implicitly.
That includes some sort of follow-own organizing and networking, because let's be honest, a ****ing cartel could crush any halfassed uprising that went down tomorrow, and from my perspective, neither side can match even that much organization and planning yet [although one already has a definite advantage in popular support].
Finally, the reason why there's so much bark and little to no bite, especially over on this side of the fence, is that there have been neither an AO nor conditions for victory set for any of these potential future revolutions people keep blabbing about. Everyone's got too damn many of their own OH so important ideas about "how it should be" to listen to anyone else, rugged individualists we all be.... I guess at some point we'll have to come up with some deeper reasons to push back than just what we "want".
No offense, but we ain't "taking back America" if this shit goes hot. It's neither physically or politically possible. 1770-whatever ain't coming again. So what next? And when the dust clears who gets to stay and who gets booted?
Hard questions perhaps better thought of now than in the middle of whatever shitstorm happens. Or doesn't, since life is just to damn good still.
Now, back on topic, per the "Antifa with guns" thing, well.... checkmate.
RetroRevolver77
08-03-18, 22:34
Demographics is destiny.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.