View Full Version : Home defense
Neither of my parents carry a firearm but are indifferent towards them. Due to recent break ins, they've been mentioning and questioning about pistols and such. Being that none of us have much bread to work with, would a Smith and Wesson SD9/40VE suffice for a nightstand gun? My LGS has them $330 out the door and I'm definitely not going to HiPoint my parents. Keep in mind, I'll be the one taking my 75year old stepdad to the range to give him trigger pulling basics and it'll probably never have more than a few hundred down the pipe.
If you have anything else to recommend, let me know but it's a gift to them and no the monetary value of the pistol doesn't reflect how much I care about them. I have a wife in nursing school and two kids one 3 the other 9, so it's a little tight.
Alaska3006
05-02-15, 13:31
Berreta M9 or 92FS and the Taurus PT92
9mm should be perfect......
It's what I was trained on in the military the M9........suggest a high capacity that way he probably won't need to be reloaded. :)
I'll check the pricing on those. Two good options for the bedside. Reliable and can double as a clubbing device
Alaska3006
05-02-15, 13:42
The Taurus PT 92 less than $400
Mr.Anderson
05-02-15, 13:58
I have a PT92
It's heavy. It may be too heavy for your step dad.
You can get a S&W M&P Bodyguard with an integrated laser for about $350
I got my wife one last month. We use Liberty Civil Defense, which is a very nice looking hollow point, in it.
Though small, and I would not advise a 2 handed approach to this pistol for your parents - rather, a one handed extended grip and use the laser for aiming, it actually fits my hands pretty good.
IMO, you really need to involve your parents in this purchase. It may turn out that the pistol is not comfortable in their hands and out of respect for you they may not mention it. This could effect your trigger time and their very safety.
I remember one time when I first started shooting, I went into 2nd Amendment Sports in Bakersfield CA and was set on a 1911 .45
Well, it didn't fit my hand (at the time) and neither did my 2nd choice - HK .45
So I ended up with a Ruger P345. And, a BS 10 day waiting period lol.
If the Bodyguard is too small I'd look at the S&W Shield.
But again, the laser, IMO on the bodyguard comes in handy for inexperienced shooters, sleepy eyed situations or for people that may not be as quick or eagle eyed as they used to be.
Heck, I've even ran through scenarios last night with the SIG next to me during family movie night and the house is dark. I picked up the SIG and could not see the sights. But no biggie, I have the laser on the rail.
Quick target acquisition.
My .02
i would 100 percent suggest staying with 9mm, 380 out of a baby grip is probably going to be too snappy. police trade in glock 9's can still be found for $350
Inkslinger
05-02-15, 14:08
If you go the pocket pistol route, I like the lcp over the bodyguard. If you get the lcp with Crimson trace laser, its grip activated. The bodyguard has the button towards the muzzle. You would have to turn it on first or use two hands. The lcp is grip and go.
Mr.Anderson
05-02-15, 14:12
i would 100 percent suggest staying with 9mm, 380 out of a baby grip is probably going to be too snappy. police trade in glock 9's can still be found for $350
You may be right about the "snap". I've heard that said about the bodyguard. I have not got to shoot it. I wimped out all winter (it was rough in the NE) and didn't go to the range at all.
The one mag that came with it has the mag extension on it to spread the grip real estate out a bit.
Ammo is another factor also in regards to recoil. Beyond this I cannot say because I have not shot the pistol yet. I do have a 2nd brand of ammo for when I do though.
Oh, and I have found around here, .380 is expensive lol. The LGS I was at yesterday wanted $25 for 20rnd box of Hornady CD. I was like o.O! um, no thank you.
Called my Ammo Supply Warehouse bud and got 50rnd boxes for $25. Yes, thank you.
*EDIT*
While grip and ON of the LCP has it's advantages, is it a constant on? That would be a no go for me.
Also, the bodyguard has 2 modes. Constant on (after you push the button the 1st time) and strobe.
Some people still shoot auto loaders like the old revolvers. If one shoots this way it wouldn't be an issue to push the button.
Regardless, if you don't train with your tool you're not operating to your full potential anyways to see what works for you or doesn't.
I'm of the opinion small guns are for carry only. If they wont carry it, I think the sd9 would be a great option. Basically, you would want the biggest they can handle well as its easiest to shoot.
To be honest, I'd suggest an ak with a light. That would beat the crap out of a handgun and they are much more likely to be able to hit where needed under stress, but that bumps you up to 500 for the gun.
Mr.Anderson
05-02-15, 15:08
Jpoe,
There is more to this than just a pistol/weapon for defense.
It has to start with a mindset.
Neither of my parents carry a firearm but are indifferent towards them
They have to get out of their indifference and into a survival mindset.
A firearm is good. But won't do them any good if an intruder is able to sneak up on them in the night.
I have early warning devices. A dog, Security Alarm, motion activated lighting. My house was built in the 1800's so the wood floors are impossible to walk on w/out making noise lol.
Locks on all doors to sleeping quarters, etc.
Most importantly? A plan. A mindset. I run through scenarios of "what if, when this, happens" type stuff.
Your parents have to do this or they may not be victorious in a confrontation inside their own home.
To me, Security is a lifestyle. It's not something every now & then, or a hobby.
IMO, this is the first thing they have to understand regarding defense.
I'm of the opinion small guns are for carry only. If they wont carry it, I think the sd9 would be a great option. Basically, you would want the biggest they can handle well as its easiest to shoot.
To be honest, I'd suggest an ak with a light. That would beat the crap out of a handgun and they are much more likely to be able to hit where needed under stress, but that bumps you up to 500 for the gun.
Small guns have a small niche, IMO.
His step father is 75 yrs old. Personally, I'm not sure he is up for the Rock'nRoll of an AK :D
Maybe a shotgun with mounted light? Low brass ammo?
Dad would have to be assessed first to see what limitations he has and figure that into the purchase.
4" 38/357 Smith or Ruger. Loaded with 38SPLs
Easy to load, easy manual of arms, easy to maintain, doubles as a club.
Useful for non-gun people who want a gun.
Do you have a 9MM or other pistol he can shoot, and see how he can manage it? If he has trouble with it how about a pistol caliber carbine? They may be a bit more expensive.
Neither of my parents carry a firearm but are indifferent towards them. Due to recent break ins, they've been mentioning and questioning about pistols and such. Being that none of us have much bread to work with, would a Smith and Wesson SD9/40VE suffice for a nightstand gun? My LGS has them $330 out the door and I'm definitely not going to HiPoint my parents. Keep in mind, I'll be the one taking my 75year old stepdad to the range to give him trigger pulling basics and it'll probably never have more than a few hundred down the pipe.
If you have anything else to recommend, let me know but it's a gift to them and no the monetary value of the pistol doesn't reflect how much I care about them. I have a wife in nursing school and two kids one 3 the other 9, so it's a little tight.
Don't overlook the used market. Most people want new toys and put very few rnds through a gun and sell them, and a used M&P FS 9mm for example would be had around that price. Personally, I'd take a used quality handgun over poor quality new gun if money was a major issue in the decision making.
So many quotes to address!!
Ok my stepdad is 75 as of Yesterday and can still outrun me. He has a 20ga westernfield pump that was his fathers and he thinks racking the action is enough to ward anyone off. This isn't 1963.
They have a 100lb chocolate lab that lives inside.
They keep the house locked up.
I can't get him into the LGS because he's so indifferent that gun talk gets on his nerves. My mother wants a loaded pistol in reach by the bed. She has shot them in her past life/marriage but still doesn't care much for them.
I've had my hand on the SD series and other than a heavy trigger, I don't see an issue. I'd own it myself. Looks to be a good bet with a Viridian light/laser setup in 9mm.
It's difficult to involve them in this when it becomes irritating to them but rest assured, if they ever need it they won't feel bothered to implement the weapon.
I do own a 9mm. My stepdad is still very much a golfer and can play his age at the local courses. Maybe I can get him to the range if I make a driving range trip with him.
All of this is very difficult because I can't force this but they know it's neccessary. It's kind of put to me to just handle it and show him how to shoot it
Don't overlook the used market. Most people want new toys and put very few rnds through a gun, and a used M&P FS 9mm for example would be had around that price. Personally, I'd take a used quality handgun over poor quality new gun if money was a major issue in the decision making.
This! If you can find a good price on a used gun, check to make sure nothing is broken, replace springs, and be happy.
The next thing I would do is take them to the store and have them try a few guns in hand and see what fits. I see used Glocks, police trade ins in the $350 range, CDNN has some but they are in .40, but last gun show I was at had 17s for $375 used. A used 92 wouldn't be a poor choice either since they tend to be very easy to shoot and soft recoiling. I know in training new shoots have had several gravitate towards my 92 because it fit their hands well and was easy for them to shoot compared to a Glock. A .38/.357 revolver may work as well. But again make sure it is something that they are both comfortable with and are not going to be afraid of shooting.
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-02-15, 15:56
If they are not gun people definitely get them a revolver. A steel framed Ruger or a J-frame would be best. Novices and older folks have a lot of issues with slides, safeties, etc. A revolver will be safe for normal handling but simple enough for them to figure out no matter what the situation.
Thoughts about a taurus model 85? Or is that a no go. Not a lot of money to work with but still want something reliable for my parents.
If they live in your area, maybe you could go to Hoover Tactical to try a full size 9mm and a 4" 38 revolver. Maybe they'll become a little more committed sooner than later. I would think you could pick up a decent used gun for them.
The SD9 should be a decent pistol other than the trigger pull of 8.5 pounds. I'm sure a different spring could remedy it. Here is a review.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/10/tyler-kee/gun-review-smith-wesson-sd9-ve/
Mr.Anderson
05-02-15, 17:15
Will your mother be going for the pistol and your step father going for the shotgun?
If so then it's her that needs fitted for the gun more so than dad?
The SD9 should be a decent pistol other than the trigger pull of 8.5 pounds. I'm sure a different spring could remedy it. Here is a review.
They are OK for what they are, but a slightly used quality pistol vs a new SD9 seems a no brainer to me. My short stint with S&W they told me they sold quite a few Sigma's now SD9s and few came back, so that's good news. My experience with the SD9 was it's not something I'd invest in personally when there's better choices for the same price (Used M&Ps, etc) or perhaps as others have mentioned, a wheel gun.
FlyingHunter
05-02-15, 18:26
Please convince them to get basic safety training, NRA class, or something similar once you/they settle on a firearm. Training is critical, knowledge is powerful.
As an NRA instructor, my 2cents worth for firearms advice for your parents situation. Ruger GP 100 in .357mag, 4.20" barrel, shooting low recoil 38special ammunition such as:
http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Special-90-gr-FTX-Critical-Defense-lite/
Mom had signed up Hoover Tactical with some friends but I can't remember why they cancelled. Some of those guys at the counter apparently have a ton to prove in the wang department just from various convos. But im sure instructors are professional.
I need to drag them to the range.
I was beat to the punch earlier but I think it should be said again. Look for something like a used Glock 17 or 19 or M&P9. I have a buddy with a limited budge since he is saving for an engagement ring and I have recommended the same to him.
If your parents haven't been shooters in the past I would second getting them some training, at the very least a NRA handgun course. This link can give you a place to start. You can even take it with them, I had a great time taking a class with my dad.
NRA Course Search (http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx)
I'd second the Taurus PT92. All steel, solid and very reliable.
How about a police turn in Glock? Various calibers and generations if you look online.
Or maybe just a big can of pepper spray since they're such gun affecionados
If they're not going to practice much then they need a revolver.
My wife isn't in to guns but she needs something at the house for when I'm out of town. She's not going to practice. I was thinking a used S&W .38 at the gun show. But then I saw a box of .44spl hollow points at the local GS. I have a 4" S&W 629. Problem solved. It's a pussycat with this load.
Agreed - get a revolver. They even have 7 and 8 shot models now. For people who aren't going to practice or train, and people who just want a gun laying in a drawer until something goes bump in the night, the wheel gun is optimum.
We use Liberty Civil Defense, which is a very nice looking hollow point, in it.
Um... That ammo is garbage. And it's ill-advised to buy defensive ammo because it has a nice looking hollow point. Plenty of good ammo choices are available and none of them include the hyper-light bullets used by the questionable company suggested here.
Maverick 88 home defense shotgun in 20 ga for $240
CDNN has new Walther PPXs in 9mm and .40 starting at $279. Probably $320ish OTD after shipping and transfer fees. Used Glocks and M&Ps can be easily found around the same price. If any of those pistols work for them they would all be good choices. As stated previously training is important. Even if it's just the NRA Basic Pistol Course taught by a vetted instructor. An X400U may also be a wise addtion to whatever they end up with. They add weight but a lot of capability.
I'll go to the LGS and check out revolvers. I have them agreed to go to the range. Stepdad used to hunt squirrels with his dad until he was in his late 20's so he's shot a gun before. Mom had some revolver in the early 80's.
If I can get them use to the 9mm I may step that direction.
FYI, the defensive I carry is Federal HST LE Tactical 147 gr. +P. Mr Anderson Mentioned defensive ammo. The HST has great reviews. Literally got it next day from Ammo to go. Couldn't beat the price. Me and a buddy split shipping and got a box each. ~$42.50/50rounds. The LGS didn't have that and they only had boxes of 20 for nearly the same price. Bump that
Psalms144.1
05-03-15, 15:18
Jpoe - too many other people have mentioned the MOST critical point here - interest and dedication, so I'll "wish that away" in the interest of advancing the conversation. WRT revolvers PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't get them a J-frame, or other small framed revolver (or any allow frame revolver). The short sight radius, skimpy sights, heavy trigger, heavy recoil, and low capacity really make those VERY BAD choices for non-dedicated shooters. Ask me how I know, after having been a firearms instructor for several decades now...
If you're going the round gun route, I'd suggest nothing smaller than a S&W K frame (or equivalent) and nothing less than a 3" barrel. A 4" K/L frame or a 4" GP100 would be a much better choice, IMHO.
Having said that, a used pre-2010 3rd Gen G19 or G17 would be much better - the single recoil spring is a breeze to manipulate, and it has a simple to learn, easy to use trigger with good capacity and good performance. A newer M&P FS MIGHT be OK as well - assuming you get the latest iteration that allegedly "fixed" the accuracy issues earlier models were prone to.
WRT the new Sigma (or SD), I used to qualify an FBI agent who had one on his personal weapons list - he swore by it, shot great with it, and I never witnessed him have a malfunction with his. But, as others have noted, you get what you pay for, and the SD might be a bit of a pig-in-a-poke...
Best of luck!
I keep ping ponging all of this info around. I have a xd9 service so that's a piece they can shoot at the range. A buddy has a 1911 that I can borrow so I think that's two they can at least experience. I'm hoping to give them experience enough to allow them to feel comfortable in the store holding a few samples.
NickySantoro
05-03-15, 17:50
Coincidentally, I've been advising my friend of 50 years, just turned 70, on the same subject. He has no handgun experience at all. He's pretty much decided on the heaviest 4" K frame size revolver he can locate and plans to load it with the stoutest .38 spl HP that he is comfortable with. This is New Jerky so it will strictly be an inside-the-house nightstand gun.
FWIW
YMMV
Mr.Anderson
05-03-15, 18:18
Agreed - get a revolver. They even have 7 and 8 shot models now. For people who aren't going to practice or train, and people who just want a gun laying in a drawer until something goes bump in the night, the wheel gun is optimum.
Um... That ammo is garbage. And it's ill-advised to buy defensive ammo because it has a nice looking hollow point. Plenty of good ammo choices are available and none of them include the hyper-light bullets used by the questionable company suggested here.
Do you have sources for the ballistics/studies on this round?
I've seen it said before of the brand/caliber.
Speaking of caliber, it IS a .380... I'm not expecting TOO much. I would like to obviously maximize it's lethality. It was either the Liberty round or a FMJ. I figured the Liberty round would be a better round. But I have both, currently.
And, just for the record, when I said "good looking hollow point" I mean, as it SEEMED to me that the bullet should make a nice wound. Not that it is pretty... which, it is too, but that's not what I mean.
*ETA*
I found my PT92 handled recoil very well. If you are not warm to the Taurus (as many aren't around here) then I assume the Beretta model should have comparable recoil/handling.
I don't find the weight of the pistol a factor. In fact, I like heavy guns. It was an original concern of mine for your situation but you said your step dad is in good strong shape (loosely translated) so he may be up for the 92
I'd never recommend a Taurus or a 380 anything as a HD gun. Same with a J-frame.
For a bump in the night handgun for people with little experience / interest, a medium frame revolver is ideal. You can load it with a variety of rounds (light or heavy), easy to load / unload, malfunction drill is pull the trigger again, no need to worry about safeties, slide bit, limp wristing, etc, etc.
Unless they are the exception and are truly dedicated in learning the gun, you are going to be lucky to get them to the range more than a handful of times. Impart gun safety #1 and an easy and reliable weapon.
Concerning ammo, stick with proven, tried and tested, mainstream JHPs. Speer Gold Dots and Federal HST are my preferences, but Hornady is probably good too.
Boutique bull$hit ammo is just that, bull$hit for the internet commandos to argue about and ogle over with the shades drawn tight.
YMMV.
So far a few negatives have the j frame out. Looks like a k frame, sd9, pt92, and a full size glock fit the bill. Lemme see if I know anyone with the mentioned or of its likeness to meet us at the range.
Get a shotty... all the guns in my safe and that's my go to for home defense inside the home! Also the one I made sure my wife can use.
Get a shotty... all the guns in my safe and that's my go to for home defense inside the home! Also the one I made sure my wife can use.
Given the experience you mention the mom and step dad having, this may not be a horrible option. Even a 16 or 20 gauge can be effective in the right hands, and I assume no kids in the house to secure. Would be easy to huddle down in the bedroom, cover the entrance, and wait for the cops to arrive.
Not usually a fan of shotguns for HD, but from a static position it might be a viable option.
A shotty is great when you know where all the friendlies are and assume that they'll be behind you.
Take that away and I'll take an AR or pistol anyday of the week and twice on sunday.
Do you have sources for the ballistics/studies on this round?
I've seen it said before of the brand/caliber.
Speaking of caliber, it IS a .380... I'm not expecting TOO much. I would like to obviously maximize it's lethality. It was either the Liberty round or a FMJ. I figured the Liberty round would be a better round. But I have both, currently.
And, just for the record, when I said "good looking hollow point" I mean, as it SEEMED to me that the bullet should make a nice wound. Not that it is pretty... which, it is too, but that's not what I mean.
The problem is that the way a JHP looks is not going to be indicative of how it will perform. If you research it you'll find the Liberty ammo is widely considered a marketing gimmick. Also the trend has been towards heavier bullets for some time now. Going lighter than the "light" loads is not going to get you the penetration you need. That goes even more so for .380. Most folks will tell you that FMJ is your best option if you must use .380. Even more will suggest avoiding the caliber.
Here are a couple good starting points.
9/40/357/45: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo
.380: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp
Back on topic - guys the OP already stated his dad has a shotgun. I suspect that's why he is asking about just handguns.
Mr.Anderson
05-04-15, 04:57
El Cid
I agree about the caliber. Plus its one more type of ammo added to the list that I have to have on hand.
It was for my wife.
For example, I loaded up my new SIG sp2022 the day I got it and let her hold it like she'd use it. It was too big and too heavy for her.
Thanx for the links. I'll read them ASAP
buckshot1220
05-04-15, 09:14
Don't overlook the used market. Most people want new toys and put very few rnds through a gun and sell them, and a used M&P FS 9mm for example would be had around that price. Personally, I'd take a used quality handgun over poor quality new gun if money was a major issue in the decision making.
^This. I'd take a used/trade-in Glock Gen 3 19/17 over anything available new for $350.
4" 38/357 Smith or Ruger. Loaded with 38SPLs
Easy to load, easy manual of arms, easy to maintain, doubles as a club.
Useful for non-gun people who want a gun.
This hits the nail on the head!
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