Top U.S. Army Marksman Explains Why Gun Nuts Shoot Better

[7.62NATO]

Interesting perspective from a 1st Special Forces Group soldier. A worthwhile read.


Master Sgt. Scott Satterlee is really good at shooting things. He’s a member of the U.S. Army’s elite 1st Special Forces Group based at Joint Base Lewis-McChord in Washington state. He’s also a nationally ranked competitive precision rifle shooter—and one of the military’s best marksmen.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/top-army-marksman-explains-why-gun-nuts-shoot-better-469f8dfd917f

[markm]

That's interesting.

[Wake27]

He's not from Delta, but was about the next closest thing. Does a lot of precision rifle with his company, Precision Tactical Solutions. I posted a thread here with an AAR from a three day pistol/carbine course I took with him two years ago. I don't think he has done much of that lately but may start up again in a few months. Nothing against Mike Pannone, and I may be a little biased, but I enjoyed my class with him a lot more than the two day I did with CTT (still a good class though and definitely not an apples to apples comparison).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I always chuckle when they talk about the 'weapons of war' whenever someone goes nuts with an AR.

223 being based on a varmint round
Red dots, adjustable stocks, and optimzed forends
77gr 5.56 ammo for long range shooting proving smaller rounds can be accurate
Tubb's work on the AR10 platform confirming that semi's could be automatic

These didn't happen in a vacuum, but civilian work advanced military arms.

Amateurs may not out perform the top professionals, but they can often best the run of the mill professionals that don't take the time that amateurs will. Photography is a another great 'shooting' example.

[SteyrAUG]

This isn't very surprising. Special operations dudes have to do a lot more than shoot. If civy shooters had to learn to HALO, scuba dive, run comms, climb mountains, speak a few languages, gather intelligence, hide among a foreign populace and train locals into effective fighters they'd probably not shoot quite as well either. There there are all those tricky ninja rolls and advanced knife throwing skills to master.

That said, if there is anything useful they can take from civilian shooting competition, I don't see how that hurts anything. Certainly we borrow plenty of stuff from them.

[bp7178]

All of the gun nuts I know...sadly that I work with...can't shoot for a shit. Its even worse when they can barely pass the PT test, but will talk endlessly about some f'd up Kel-Tec they just bought.

All of the best shooters I've known are all mechanical people. They intrinsically understand the function of mechanical things.

[MountainRaven]

I guess things have changed somewhat since Col. Wm. Church and Gen. George Wingate were displeased by the marksmanship of Union soldiers.

[Business_Casual]

I guess things have changed somewhat since Col. Wm. Church and Gen. George Wingate were displeased by the marksmanship of Union soldiers.

Ammo is expensive, so is training and ranges etc. basic cost benefit situation.

[SOWT]

Ammo is expensive, so is training and ranges etc. basic cost benefit situation.

Training doesn't always involve ammo or ranges.

How things work, and basic maintenance can be done in class.

I've learned more about shooting and weapons from this forum then I ever would have imagined.

Likewise, the one course I took showed me in 4 hours how to be a better shooter.

We run to the range, shoot, and run home without considering anything we just did. Fewer rounds and more time between trigger pulls can make you a better BASIC shooter.

But the trainers are not "gun people" for the most part, and they are saddled with all the extra crap Congress has loaded onto us.

[austinN4]

Top U.S. Army Marksman Explains Why Gun Nuts Shoot Better
While the article was a good read, I hated the title as the term "Gun Nuts" makes me bristle. It is very demeaning! There is nothing nuts about most of us.

[7.62NATO]

While the article was a good read, I hated the title as the term "Gun Nuts" makes me bristle. It is very demeaning! There is nothing nuts about most of us.

Some here are nuts.

[Jer]

I know what he's talking about because in years past I shot competitive long range tactical matches based out of Raton, NM. Some of the best shooters in the country show up for the monthly matches as well as the invite-only Steel Safari match that goes down once a year. Shooters from military/LE (current & former) as well as well as the civilian segment show up and most of the first time mil/LE shooters are usually surprised by how they finish as well as how 'realistic' the match is. You hump everything you need between ten stages and the match takes about 7-10hrs as you traverse the terrain at the NRA's Whittington Center. I know we would regularly shoot groups that were 1/4-1/2MOA while working up loads or testing new equipment but the saying was if you could shoot 1MOA in the field you'd win every contest. The course was challenging and the stages varied wildly. Six targets per stage ranging from 225yds to 875yds and shooting positions ranged from prone perfect line of sight to shooting kneeling off-hand or sticks over tall grass. The wind was always an incredible challenge. Always swirling and the further the target the more likely you were to have to read wind that changed two or three times before you got to the steel. One shot per target. Hit or miss. Nothing else mattered. It was intense and a tremendous test of your shooting ability. Not much compared to it in shooting sports.

I've since retired from the sport (just too expensive in today's economy) but took a lifetime of experience from it. From trigger discipline, follow through, mirage/wind reading & creating dope cards to the maddening hobby that is loading your own ammo for this sort of competition. You have to have some degree of OCD when it comes to measurements and figures to produce ammo so consistent that the smallest of perceivable measurements will affect your groups. One thing I will say is that most of us used the best of the best. We had custom rifles that were all hand-made by the best smiths possible using the best materials & parts available to them. We then gathered the best possible components to work up loads that would be the best and most consistent ammo possible out of that particular rifle on that particular day. I could go on and on but the point I'm trying to make here is that military sharp shooters may be a very small partial step back to someone who basically lives it morning noon & night but what they do with factory rifles, factory ammo and the conditions in which they do it in (2-way range is a different beast entirely) never ceases to amaze me. While some civilians do tend to shoot better in these sort of conditions than some military/LE sharp shooters what they do normally is far more impressive.

While I understand stories like this and appreciate what it does to show the average American that gun owners are indeed trustworthy behind a trigger & not the overzealous and trigger happy gun nut who cares not about safety I will never concede that what they do is far more impressive in just about every measurable quantifiable aspect as well as those that are not.

[SteyrAUG]

All of the gun nuts I know...sadly that I work with...can't shoot for a shit. Its even worse when they can barely pass the PT test, but will talk endlessly about some f'd up Kel-Tec they just bought.

All of the best shooters I've known are all mechanical people. They intrinsically understand the function of mechanical things.

I think in this case the term "gun nuts" refers to "competitive shooters."

[austinN4]

I think in this case the term "gun nuts" refers to "competitive shooters."
Understood, but why not just say so? Easy enough to do - Top U.S. Army Marksman Explains Why Competitive Shooters Shoot Better

To many people, myself included, "Gun Nut" is a negative term used frequently by gun grabbers as if there were something wrong with us. To wit: http://www.salon.com/2015/05/06/gun_nuts_lose_their_damned_minds_the_common_sense_gun_safety_bill_thats_giving_the_nra_gop_conniptions/

Again, I have no issue with the article itself, only the title. I thought body of the article was good.

[SteyrAUG]

Understood, but why not just say so? Easy enough to do - Top U.S. Army Marksman Explains Why Competitive Shooters Shoot Better

To many people, myself included, "Gun Nut" is a negative term used frequently by gun grabbers as if there were something wrong with us. To wit: http://www.salon.com/2015/05/06/gun_nuts_lose_their_damned_minds_the_common_sense_gun_safety_bill_thats_giving_the_nra_gop_conniptions/

Again, I have no issue with the article itself, only the title. I thought body of the article was good.

If you think about it, "gun nuts" in this case are portrayed in a positive light and as actually contributing to the performance of the US military. If you said "competitive shooter" it would be easily spun as "people other than normal civilian gun owners" and could be distorted to be "Olympic shooters" or some other category of "special" firearm owner who is generally exempt.

So the fact that "gun nut" is being used in a positive connotation is to me a good thing. Be pretty funny if we could deny "anti freedom people" one of their disparaging terms.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I know what he's talking about because in years past I shot competitive long range tactical matches based out of Raton, NM. Some of the best shooters in the country show up for the monthly matches as well as the invite-only Steel Safari match that goes down once a year. Shooters from military/LE (current & former) as well as well as the civilian segment show up and most of the first time mil/LE shooters are usually surprised by how they finish as well as how 'realistic' the match is. You hump everything you need between ten stages and the match takes about 7-10hrs as you traverse the terrain at the NRA's Whittington Center. I know we would regularly shoot groups that were 1/4-1/2MOA while working up loads or testing new equipment but the saying was if you could shoot 1MOA in the field you'd win every contest. The course was challenging and the stages varied wildly. Six targets per stage ranging from 225yds to 875yds and shooting positions ranged from prone perfect line of sight to shooting kneeling off-hand or sticks over tall grass. The wind was always an incredible challenge. Always swirling and the further the target the more likely you were to have to read wind that changed two or three times before you got to the steel. One shot per target. Hit or miss. Nothing else mattered. It was intense and a tremendous test of your shooting ability. Not much compared to it in shooting sports.

I've since retired from the sport (just too expensive in today's economy) but took a lifetime of experience from it. From trigger discipline, follow through, mirage/wind reading & creating dope cards to the maddening hobby that is loading your own ammo for this sort of competition. You have to have some degree of OCD when it comes to measurements and figures to produce ammo so consistent that the smallest of perceivable measurements will affect your groups. One thing I will say is that most of us used the best of the best. We had custom rifles that were all hand-made by the best smiths possible using the best materials & parts available to them. We then gathered the best possible components to work up loads that would be the best and most consistent ammo possible out of that particular rifle on that particular day. I could go on and on but the point I'm trying to make here is that military sharp shooters may be a very small partial step back to someone who basically lives it morning noon & night but what they do with factory rifles, factory ammo and the conditions in which they do it in (2-way range is a different beast entirely) never ceases to amaze me. While some civilians do tend to shoot better in these sort of conditions than some military/LE sharp shooters what they do normally is far more impressive.

While I understand stories like this and appreciate what it does to show the average American that gun owners are indeed trustworthy behind a trigger & not the overzealous and trigger happy gun nut who cares not about safety I will never concede that what they do is far more impressive in just about every measurable quantifiable aspect as well as those that are not.

It is amazing how everyone talks about their 1moa rifle, yet how many perfect scores have there been on Pueblo's prairie dog match? Those are 1MOA targets with prone or benches to shoot from.

My first thought was Hoser. He's MIL, but not a 'shooter'.

[Jer]

It is amazing how everyone talks about their 1moa rifle, yet how many perfect scores have there been on Pueblo's prairie dog match? Those are 1MOA targets with prone or benches to shoot from.

My first thought was Hoser. He's MIL, but not a 'shooter'.

Great point man. That Prairie Dog match is no joke and sounds so dang simple on paper. It can be the source of your most frustrating day shooting ever if you don't concentrate though. Sounds funny for 1MOA targets since the rifle should be capable of doing that on auto-pilot, right?

[chuckman]

My first thought was Hoser. He's MIL, but not a 'shooter'.

Elaborate? Not sure I'm tracking.

[SteveS]

During a time when the majority of people had a skill called critical thinking, the was instituted the Department of Civilian Marksmanship.

[l8apex]

The eye opener for me like many who have crossed into competition side is participating in a match. USPSA or IDPA. Learned a ton of technique and the GMs are something to behold. The author is completely right. Good article.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Elaborate? Not sure I'm tracking.

Sorry. 'Hoser' is the screen name of a shooter in Pueblo who is in the military, but not as a shooter. (I never know what to say about people.) I haven't been down in a couple of years since I joined CO Rifle Club, but he ran the Prairie Dog match and the Tac Rifle match down there- so he is fairly well known, plus he was on The Hide. The dogs were at least 1moa wide, I think even out to the max 425 yards, and there were very few perfect scores IIRC. Of course Hoser would hide them in the brush sometimes ;) . The tac rifle got interesting with more free range stuff, and unusual support positions- lean on a bush type. Hoser has the gear, the knowledge and the skill to shoot very well- and loved to help people learn. A great guy.