View Full Version : AR Pistol As a Go To Rifle
Emtothedee
05-06-15, 00:16
Just trying to open up a discussion. With the advancement in accessories for AR Pistols that allow them to be shot more comfortably, is it acceptable to consider one as your go to weapon, or should one always have a go to rifle that has a legitimate buttstock? It seems like AR pistols are not the novelty they used to be, especially with more and more of them appearing in carbine classes and such. It seems like they are starting to take the form of more serious, go to weapons. If setup properly, is it dumb to make one your go to? Let's assume tax stamps don't exist, because for many people who build pistols, they do not have that option.
skimbleshanks
05-06-15, 00:38
I think after weighing what you need to do with your go to weapon and training adequately an ar pistol could very much make sense for some people. Higher capacity than a 1911(or most other pistols) and better maneuverability than a full length rifle, in a state that doesn't allow sbr's. Sure.
My pistol is my go-to while prepare the lower for engraving/ATF forms etc. for my stamp. (the stamp we are pretending doesn't exist) It's short and has the silencer, RDS, and WML, so it is definitely the first one I would grab.
vicious_cb
05-06-15, 01:39
Maybe you should redefine what you mean by pistol AR. Is just a foam wrapped buffer tube or a sig brace AR? 7.5" barrel or a more SBR type barrel?
turnburglar
05-06-15, 02:34
I do think that with some of the newer arm braces they are more attractive.
My IDEAL go to gun would be a 11.5" barrel with a pined suppressor like Griffin Spartan 3. Then you could have a one stamp gun and it's considered a rifle. I'd like to have a suppressed rifle cartridge for home defense.
joshrunkle35
05-06-15, 07:45
I do think that with some of the newer arm braces they are more attractive.
My IDEAL go to gun would be a 11.5" barrel with a pined suppressor like Griffin Spartan 3. Then you could have a one stamp gun and it's considered a rifle. I'd like to have a suppressed rifle cartridge for home defense.
I don't believe that the braces are very effective for home defense, when attached to the arm for stability. They limit your options for switching offhand, getting an offhand grip while sighting, etc.
People have been using them like a buttstock, which ATF had determined is illegal. If you shoulder your arm brace, it becomes an illegal SBR.
There is nothing that an AR pistol can do that an SBR can't do better. Chances are that if you're in a state that doesn't allow SBRs, you'd also be stuck with a neutered AR pistol as well. If this is the rarest of cases where you can have any AR pistol configuration, but is a state where you cannot own SBRs, then an AR pistol would be fine...I would look into using one of the cheek-weld techniques, which is not illegal, as it is not "shouldered".
I was under the impression that the terminal ballistics really suffers in short 223/556 barrels.
I'm still planning on fighting my way to a carbine if I find myself in that situation.
Singlestack Wonder
05-06-15, 17:48
Braces are a joke as are pistol ar's. If the situation calls for a pistol, a pistol is a better tool than an ar pistol.
Emtothedee
05-06-15, 17:54
What makes a brace a joke?
Emtothedee
05-06-15, 17:59
I don't believe that the braces are very effective for home defense, when attached to the arm for stability. They limit your options for switching offhand, getting an offhand grip while sighting, etc.
People have been using them like a buttstock, which ATF had determined is illegal. If you shoulder your arm brace, it becomes an illegal SBR.
I don't believe that the ATF would be standing there surveying how you shoot your AR pistol in the midst of a home defense scenario, nor would I even care in that instance of that is what I chose to protect my household with. "I made sure there was a 1/146th of an inch gap between the brace and my shoulder sir." Although shooting an intruder with an ar pistol strapped to my arm like robocop is def quite the visual
The braces were a workaround, nothing more until people ruined it by constantly asking the atf if it's ok to shoulder it. Using the brace as intended flat out sucks, although you can get a good cheek weld off it without shouldering. That said in a home defense situation, it's not like you're going to write the atf first. The only thing an Ar style pistol does better than an SBR is travel state lines.
People have been using them like a buttstock, which ATF had determined is illegal. If you shoulder your arm brace, it becomes an illegal SBR.
I think you are misinformed regarding the use of a brace on the shoulder. The ATF states that misuse of the intended purpose does not violate the law.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/12/foghorn/calm-pistol-brace-ruling-hasnt-changed/
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Emtothedee
05-06-15, 22:20
I think you are misinformed regarding the use of a brace on the shoulder. The ATF states that misuse of the intended purpose does not violate the law.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/12/foghorn/calm-pistol-brace-ruling-hasnt-changed/
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Thank you very much for that post
HighDesert
05-06-15, 23:07
My 11.5" pistol AR is my go to HD weapon and choice for road trips. It is actually the most accurate AR I own, ranging from 11.5 to 20 barrels...
Been meaning to do the stamp, but just cannot justify spending the money or time when I have zero complaints as is.
With the SB15, Aimpoint pro and surefire m600 this is a quick, accurate and great shooter.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/06/6a2702259dd588442484f4fc8e574f2f.jpg
I think you are misinformed regarding the use of a brace on the shoulder. The ATF states that misuse of the intended purpose does not violate the law.
Nope, they changed their minds. It cannot be shouldered.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/no-shouldered-sig-braces/
If they see you shouldering it in a home defense situation through an open window or your xbox kinect camera :) ...or ask you if you shouldered it when the authorities arrive, the obvious answer is no. 'Cos who would shoulder it?
Emtothedee
05-07-15, 07:29
K
Nope, they changed their minds. It cannot be shouldered.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/no-shouldered-sig-braces/
If they see you shouldering it in a home defense situation through an open window or your xbox kinect camera :) ...or ask you if you shouldered it when the authorities arrive, the obvious answer is no. 'Cos who would shoulder it?
Even when I'm out in the desert, I make sure there is a 1/100th of an inch gap between my brace and shoulder, just in case they are surveiling me from their drone 20,000 feet in the air
K
Even when I'm out in the desert, I make sure there is a 1/100th of an inch gap between my brace and shoulder, just in case they are surveiling me from their drone 20,000 feet in the air
If you support more against your clavicle you should be fine, lolz
Emtothedee
05-07-15, 11:49
There's also no mention of the pectoral muscle. Strictly shoulder
The braces were a workaround, nothing more until people ruined it by constantly asking the atf if it's ok to shoulder it. Using the brace as intended flat out sucks, although you can get a good cheek weld off it without shouldering. That said in a home defense situation, it's not like you're going to write the atf first. The only thing an Ar style pistol does better than an SBR is travel state lines.
For someone who travels a lot being able to travel state lines makes owning an ar pistol worth while. Also being able to carry in vehicle with a ccl. A good go to rifle is one that you can keep with you.
Pistols are WONDERFUL options in states that do not allow AR's or you frequently travel out of state, or if carrying a loaded "rifle" is illegal in your area if you so choose.
Here's why I think this. I have a pistol lower on a A2 RIFLE buffer and it is the exact length of a carbine stock pulled all the way out (how I shoot a rifle) so switching between my rifle and pistol is seamless and I feel little to no difference between the two when shooting. And I shoot both just as accurately and comfortably.
I have 2 pistol uppers now and working on a 3rd (more than I have rifle uppers) because they are so great!
8" 300BLK with an aim point micro and some Troy tritium backup sights, as well as an x300 ultra: this setup has some defensive ammo in it and stays next to my bed or in my trunk.
8" 5.56 with irons: this is strictly a FUN upper. I built it to be lightweight, shoot huge fireballs and be FUN. It's also cheaper to train with than my 300blk (since I don't reload and 300 is still generally expensive). I can also run a .22 bolt in it if I so choose.
6.5" 9mm: this will be a combination of the two, on the lighter side, fun, cheap, and still can be loaded with defensive ammo if I so choose. It's also a good bit smaller than my 8" uppers.
Then I have a 14.5 rifle for everything else and a 20" with a decent scope for longer range messing around.
ClassIIIGunsmith
05-14-15, 08:48
Pistols are a great way now a days to give the GOV your middle finger. Back 25 years ago I bought one of the AR pistols as a noviatility item. Back then I was thinking of making a sbr with the upper. But now AR pistols are almost better than SBRs aside from no vertical grip. If you can get a rifle tube and put a rubber cap on the tube to soften the scratches it will leave on you gun display case then I say that gives you the edge over the GOV with getting an SBR. But now I have my SBR but the bitch of traveling across state lines I just don't even bother and I take my Upper off my SBR lower and put it on my pistol lower after I take my vert grip off.
Not sure what the point is. A rifle AR would inherently be more practical and intuitive than a pistol AR. You mention "go to," as in SHTF? The choice is obvious to me…
Not sure what the point is. A rifle AR would inherently be more practical and intuitive than a pistol AR. You mention "go to," as in SHTF? The choice is obvious to me…
The point is free people can (well should) choose as they see fit. End of story.
Not sure what the point is. A rifle AR would inherently be more practical and intuitive than a pistol AR. You mention "go to," as in SHTF? The choice is obvious to me…
I'd like to offer some alternative thoughts. I think the pistol idea is interesting, but not for SHTF which I think is different from HD. I want the accuracy and velocity of a longer barrel for SHTF. An AR with 14.5" barrel with pinned muzzle device and short carbine stock is 31". Taken down it can be put in a backpack.
As for pistols I can only relate to the AK pistols. Measuring an M92 with muzzle device, it is 21" long. And with a laser, RDS and sling it is a fearsome HD weapon without a stock. Adding a stock to the M92 might add 10" and then we're back to 31".
JMHO
The point is free people can (well should) choose as they see fit. End of story.
Ha ha... O.K. Killer. Thank for the insight. Hopefully your little rant saved your dog from getting kicked. Cheers.
I'd like to offer some alternative thoughts. I think the pistol idea is interesting, but not for SHTF which I think is different from HD. I want the accuracy and velocity of a longer barrel for SHTF. An AR with 14.5" barrel with pinned muzzle device and short carbine stock is 31". Taken down it can be put in a backpack.
As for pistols I can only relate to the AK pistols. Measuring an M92 with muzzle device, it is 21" long. And with a laser, RDS and sling it is a fearsome HD weapon without a stock. Adding a stock to the M92 might add 10" and then we're back to 31".
JMHO
I'm tracking. I guess my definition of a "go to" rifle is more along the lines of SHTF.... In that case, gloves are off and will slap together whatever is best in "X" situation.
In your proposed application, I can see how a pistol AR would be a useful kit. I would suggest some alternatives, but I see that are stuck in CA. Man, I feel for you guys on the west coast!
Ha ha... O.K. Killer. Thank for the insight. Hopefully your little rant saved your dog from getting kicked. Cheers.
Mmmm k
I'm tracking. I guess my definition of a "go to" rifle is more along the lines of SHTF.... In that case, gloves are off and will slap together whatever is best in "X" situation.
In your proposed application, I can see how a pistol AR would be a useful kit. I would suggest some alternatives, but I see that are stuck in CA. Man, I feel for you guys on the west coast!
Yeah, actually my "go to" rifles have 16" barrels which is about right for the suburbs. I have quite a few ARs, but my "hell has broken lose" rifles are SCARs, because they have folding stocks. Even though Commiefornia has a no folding stock rule and the "bullet button", rifles can be converted within a few minutes.
Yea, it sucks here in Commiefornia. We are planning to move out in 5 years. We cannot have SBRs, standard magazine releases (unless the rifle is configured like a Mini-14), folding stocks, or magazines over 10 rounds. And now there are few pistols we can purchase because the idiots said we need "microstamping" which the pistol manufacturers cannot and will not implement (thank god).
The only bad thing about the AK pistol is the muzzle flash or should I say fire-ball.
Everyone's idea of shtf is different. An earthquake, hurricane or train wreck could cause you and your family to evacuate. Possibly leavening state. On the other hand a total break down will not involve laws so the least of your worries will be about if your piece is legit or not.
As for California it's a shame such a nice place is governed by such idiots.
I say go for it.
They are very useable.
They do indeed offer benefits.
1). When used as an HD weapon, it's going to be taken. You won't have an NFA weapon tied up in an evidence locker.
2). Free travel across state lines. You don't have to ask big brother for permission.
3). There are quite a few states that will not let one carry a loaded rifle in their vehicle. However, with a CCL, they are allowed to carry any pistol loaded. Nothing like "carbine-like" firepower as a backup.
That's the three main advantages I see.
Nope, they changed their minds. It cannot be shouldered.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/no-shouldered-sig-braces/
If they see you shouldering it in a home defense situation through an open window or your xbox kinect camera :) ...or ask you if you shouldered it when the authorities arrive, the obvious answer is no. 'Cos who would shoulder it?
So the ATF released an individual letter contradicting other individual letters. Whodathunk. Ah well, the damned thing is ridiculously clunky on the shoulder.
I suppose if shit ever really does hit the proverbial fan, the ATF will not be around to concern us, then we can use our tax free SBR's however we damned well choose.
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For general travel I would have no problem packing a Pistol. These days if I'm traveling to any area with potential for civil unrest, one of my ak pistols goes for the ride. When I build an ar pistol, it will go instead.
Interesting article here:
https://civiliangunfighter.wordpress.com/2015/07/05/ar-pistol-legitimate-combat-firearm-or-novelty/
I have two AR pistol builds, both with Thordsen pistol kits installed. I'm ready to build a third that I will eventually make an sbr. Before people started running their mouths, posting YouTube videos, and flooding the ATF with letters about the SB15 brace, I enjoyed them. I took them to my department's range, sighted them in, and even went through the rifle qualification course just to see if the configuration was a hinderance compared to my patrol rifle. The Ar15 pistol, when set up properly, is every bit as functional and accurate as its SBR cousin.......when you shoulder it.
In a HD situation, you'd be an idiot to employ it like a pistol. In a shtf situation, you would be equally stupid to do so. You would be wise, if you had to use it, to tell the authorities that you used it in the way in which it was designed. I'm not ready to discard the the AR pistol as a viable solution in protecting oneself from a violent confrontation when avoidance is not an option, just because the ATF can't seem to get their heads out of their asses on when a pistol is a NFA item. There are many advantages in having an AR pistol. There are many advantages to not advertising how you intend on using it; we've seen where that led to.
friendlyfireisnt
07-09-15, 23:00
I have had two AR pistols. First one got submitted on a form 1, so is now a SBR. 2nd one is probably going to be submitted shortly. Right now it serves as a place holder so I have two legal lowers for my two short uppers.
I can see certain value to a pistol; if you can't get a SBR, or are going to change state lines often, or even as a place holder. But with the ATF's current view of shouldering a pistol build, their usefulness is limited in my view.
I have had two AR pistols. First one got submitted on a form 1, so is now a SBR. 2nd one is probably going to be submitted shortly. Right now it serves as a place holder so I have two legal lowers for my two short uppers.
I can see certain value to a pistol; if you can't get a SBR, or are going to change state lines often, or even as a place holder. But with the ATF's current view of shouldering a pistol build, their usefulness is limited in my view.
Training provides the ability to use the AR rifle/pistol under stress. If you can't train with the AR Pistol (re: atf ruling, like it or not), than you're limiting your preparation. Therefore the usefulness of the AR pistol is severely diminished. That is, unless you have access to a facility where no one would bat an eye with you doing the whole misuse of sig brace thing....
Devildawg2531
08-23-15, 12:21
Training provides the ability to use the AR rifle/pistol under stress. If you can't train with the AR Pistol (re: atf ruling, like it or not), than you're limiting your preparation. Therefore the usefulness of the AR pistol is severely diminished. That is, unless you have access to a facility where no one would bat an eye with you doing the whole misuse of sig brace thing....
With my time with M16A2 and my other AR's I wonder how much time is needed training with an AR pistol? Mine is a BCM 11.5 upper and BCM lower with AimPoint T1 and sigbrace. It really points and shoots the same as my DDm4 with T1 just a few inches more compact and a little more blast. I have my own range and would never consider using the Sig Brace in a non prescribed manner. Just the familiarity with the platform seems to lend itself easily between AR's. Just my thoughts.
jeremy.tankersley
08-23-15, 22:01
Has anyone on here actually fired an AR pistol from a cheek weld position? I ask because if you have, and have spent some time with it, you would know that it's a VERY viable platform.
I love my AR pistol in 300 aac for HD. It maneuvers great. It's $200 cheaper than an SBR, and I don't need to shoulder it whether it's legal or not.
It's accurate and quick. The 300 eliminates the fireball. What's not to like?
These threads bashing the AR pistol crack me up.
Train properly with one, just like you should any other firearm, and you'll probably change your mind about it being a "toy" or "option in a non-sbr state".
Why would I give the Government 200 bucks and my name when I can perform just as well without that?
I use a sopmod style cheek mount and it is absolutely comfortable and controllable.
AR pistol as a go to? Definitely.
Chunky_Lover
08-24-15, 20:45
I love the ar/ak pistols
I dont sit around doing one shot at a time, worrying about moa or distances
I do 4-5 rapid shots and even far away they seem to hit where im aiming
I dont shoot paper targets, I shoot small steel plates with iron sights only
as long as I constantly hit the plates, thats good enough
mainly the whole reason to have a small lightweight semi auto rifle/pistol, to shoot fast and multiple rounds on target
ar/ak both seem very accurate to me, and I use the cheapest ammo
I think more sit at the computer and crunch numbers then actually go out and use them to see what they really can do
jeremy.tankersley
08-24-15, 20:47
I love the ar/ak pistols
I dont sit around doing one shot at a time, worrying about moa or distances
I do 4-5 rapid shots and even far away they seem to hit where im aiming
I dont shoot paper targets, I shoot small steel plates with iron sights only
as long as I constantly hit the plates, thats good enough
mainly the whole reason to have a small lightweight semi auto rifle/pistol, to shoot fast and multiple rounds on target
ar/ak both seem very accurate to me, and I use the cheapest ammo
I think more sit at the computer and crunch numbers then actually go out and use them to see what they really can do
Exactly my thoughts.
Cheek on buffer tube, additional support with a one point sling, the stability is very good, even without holding against the shoulder.
While it is not as stable as a true SBR with a proper stock body, I would say it is about 75%.
May be a good option for some, but the end all be all for others.
jeremy.tankersley
08-25-15, 09:25
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/25/18501b0cc0ebd719d91458b77c98a441.jpg
Something like this.makes all the difference.
friendlyfireisnt
08-26-15, 18:17
Has anyone on here actually fired an AR pistol from a cheek weld position? I ask because if you have, and have spent some time with it, you would know that it's a VERY viable platform.
AR pistol as a go to? Definitely.
I have, and used to be a proponent of them. I have had two. Still have one.
I have also trained with one. And I have practiced with one, and then switched to a SBR to do the same practice.
I am faster and more accurate with the SBR. Close up the pistol does okay. On target transitions, working multiple distances, etc, it falls apart for me. It just doesn't work as well as a true shoulder fired rifle.
I see some utility, but only because of the NFA laws in the country.
I can shoot a 16" AR carbine/rifle faster and more accurately than a 10.5" AR pistol, because of the stability of the stock, but if SHTF, I wouldn't mind having the manueverability of the shorter barrel.
Frank_Castle
10-04-15, 06:46
If barrel length is reasonable & utterly reliable (11.5 or 12.5) I don't see why a pistol config is any less viable than rifle. They really aren't that different... Especially with a brace installed.
Sure, a proper SBR would be even better. But AR pistols would certainly work if that's all you can have in your (commie) state.
When you get down to 7.5" length barrels, it may get a little more questionable. Would definitely need some thorough function testing in advance to make sure it's reliable with all ammo & conditions.
10.5s are usually pretty solid these days, but personally I would prefer an 11.5". The extra inch helps reliability more than you might expect. Not to mention a little more velocity.
friendlyfireisnt
10-04-15, 07:19
If barrel length is reasonable & utterly reliable (11.5 or 12.5) I don't see why a pistol config is any less viable than rifle. They really aren't that different... Especially with a brace installed.
Sure, a proper SBR would be even better. But AR pistols would certainly work if that's all you can have in your (commie) state.
When you get down to 7.5" length barrels, it may get a little more questionable. Would definitely need some thorough function testing in advance to make sure it's reliable with all ammo & conditions.
10.5s are usually pretty solid these days, but personally I would prefer an 11.5". The extra inch helps reliability more than you might expect. Not to mention a little more velocity.
It's not the barrel length that creates the issue. It's that there isn't 4-points of contact like with an actual rifle. When the sig brace was legal to shoulder they made a lot of sense.
I have been practicing more with the pistol lately though. I'm finding a tight 2-point sling more stable than a single point. Speed and accuracy still isn't where I want it yet, but I'm narrowing down the configuration, and technique.
So I am willing to concede it's viable, but still less than optimal.
Frank_Castle
10-04-15, 07:23
I will take that. In an ideal world NFA would not exist and we'd all have SBRs! Don't I wish man!
I'll steer clear of the brace legalities discussions because I think too much talk of that online screwed us. (We screwed ourselves)
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