Merica's main problem: corruption

[VooDoo6Actual]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-07/america%E2%80%99s-main-problem-corruption

[26 Inf]

I agree with one caveat - I would change corruption to accountability.

Corruption, inefficiency and immorality flourish when people are not held accountable for their actions, when they don't have to answer to the 'all' but rather 'the few.'

I find it humorous that the reading you linked is from 'zerohedge' because I feel that one of the great downfalls of our Nation is the fact that we have an entire class of folks who have become wealthy, not by physical labor, or physical creativity, but rather by the manipulation of the idea of money, moving it back and forth and creating no physical product.

It's kind of two-faced for me to say that because due to my investments I'm getting ready to punch out at roughly 1.5 times my current salary, but there you go.

[Averageman]

I agree with one caveat - I would change corruption to accountability.

Corruption, inefficiency and immorality flourish when people are not held accountable for their actions, when they don't have to answer to the 'all' but rather 'the few"

Very, very true.
I'm dealing with this issue at work now and I wouldn't mind painting this on some office walls.

[SkiDevil]

My favorite line so often cited by the politicians and bureaucrats when caught in wrong doing or other improprieties; "I take full responsibility for what occurred".

Really, how by simply saying the words with no other real significant consequences.


Question is what is to be done about all this corruption now?

[Spurholder]

My favorite line so often cited by the politicians and bureaucrats when caught in wrong doing or other improprieties; "I take full responsibility for what occurred".

Really, how by simply saying the words with no other real significant consequences.


Question is what is to be done about all this corruption now?

In days of old (meaning up to maybe Eisenhower's administration), the statement of "I take full responsibility" was usually followed by another comment: "Appreciate you saying that. You're fired/under arrest."

[brickboy240]

America's problem is the lack of punishment that goes along with the corruption and wrong doings.

How many Congresspeople do we see get caught taking goodies from lobbyists or being behind many thousands in income taxes or insider deals and NOBODY gets fined or goes to jail.

We also see things like Fast & Furious and Benghazi go down and again...nobody pays a fine, goes to jail or even gets fired. Some even get promoted!

Hillary Clinton should at least face some charges and probably be in jail but many are about to elect her to the presidency! Amazing!

Others see this and think they too will do wrong because even if you get caught...you are probably not going to face any real punishments at all.

Lack of punishment is the biggest problem....there is no deterrent to bad behavior for elected officials.

None...zippo!

[ramairthree]

I find it humorous that the reading you linked is from 'zerohedge' because I feel that one of the great downfalls of our Nation is the fact that we have an entire class of folks who have become wealthy, not by physical labor, or physical creativity, but rather by the manipulation of the idea of money, moving it back and forth and creating no physical product.

This is a huge economic problem that I call the "zero economy."
It is the chink in the armor of capitalism that leads to the gritty, soft underbelly.

There are a lot of very affluent, and some down right rich Americans due to this.

They contribute nothing, produce nothing, invent nothing, etc.

Real estate agents, sales positions, etc. etc.

I know someone that makes about half a million a year managing offices that sell TV services. Knows nothing about filming, broadcasting, engineering, connections, etc.

And someone making a similar amount selling internet services.
Again, individual or business wants internet, his company sells them the service, they get a share of the service costs, but they have no idea how to install, service, etc.

And this is not even going into useless middle management jobs, employees that are "carried", etc.

There is a whole theory in economics,
that aside from the whole cultural shift away from a responsible, western european morals, protestant work ethic society, leading to less people employed,
is that
we simply have a ton of people that are pretty much useless,
whether they are unintelligent, lazy, etc. vs. highly "educated,"
and a whole ton of jobs exist so they have a tax producing and consumer spending role.

One model of this is the "flipper."
They buy old cars, ammo, in demand toys at Walmart, etc.
then sell at a profit.

They did nothing to fix the car, did not make the ammo, was not some hard to find, rare antique toy they invested time into finding,
etc. Just adding a "zero economy" link the the chain from seller, who made less, and end buyer, who paid more.



]

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I'm big into S&M, sales and marketing. You have no clue what you are talking about. I take my production and lab people on sales trips and they can't believe the long hours, customers that treat you like crap- and you just have to take it. Sales and marketing are what actually make a market (see that word) function.

I will agree that sales is the easiest job to do poorly, but the hardest job to do well. I've seen construction guys screw stuff up so bad you'd think they tried to mess it up, their are sales guys who can screw the pooch hard too.

The problem isn't lobbyists, it's that the Fed gov has basically unlimited money to hand out. Even Rahm Emmanuel is hated by the teachers union when he actually has to hit a limited budget.

ETA:
The 22lr is an interesting example. Supply is low demand is high. I assume the manufacturers have power relative to the retailers. Why they haven't raised prices at the wholesale level doesn't make sense to me to bring the market back in balance and tamp out the re-sellers- but that's they thing, I'm not the manufacturer. They obviously have a reason for keeping the price low- it's their money. I see markets and customers that are 'broken' all the time, but that's because the we don't know all the forces people are dealing with- especially perceived risk and scarce resources.

[ramairthree]

The hours people work and the crap they take have nothing to do with how useful or needed a product is or how much value the employee has.

As an over simplification,

Some poor guy working 7 twelve hour nights a week and the Quickee Gas Mart counter with no benefits works long hours and takes a lot of crap.

People already need the gas. People already want the cigarettes and the beer.

The counter guy has produced or contributed nothing.

I want a new Corvette.
I would be fine to order it exactly as I want it from GM.
The salesman at the local Chevy dealer is a non entity in my decision. Or his manager.

Sales minus the marketing and advertising provides nothing to the transaction.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

The hours people work and the crap they take have nothing to do with how useful or needed a product is or how much value the employee has.

As an over simplification,

Some poor guy working 7 twelve hour nights a week and the Quickee Gas Mart counter with no benefits works long hours and takes a lot of crap.

People already need the gas. People already want the cigarettes and the beer.

The counter guy has produced or contributed nothing.

I want a new Corvette.
I would be fine to order it exactly as I want it from GM.
The salesman at the local Chevy dealer is a non entity in my decision. Or his manager.

Sales minus the marketing and advertising provides nothing to the transaction.

You have a some kind of line job, or you are some kind of technician and you think that suits are idiots and everything would be fine if everyone listened to you- I get it.

If you think the cash register guy at the quick-e-mart is sales, I'm afraid that I you really don't understand what sales is.

People need gas- how much, when? What price can you charge?

Which cigarettes should you carry, how much stock? If I price the cigs differently, can I pull more people to get gas? If I cut the price on gas, will more people come in to buy cigs and cokes- where I can actually make higher margins?

With out advertising how do people even know that the business exists? What kind of promotion can you run to increase sales and profits.

I find it interesting that the thread really is about corruption, but you decided to go after sales people. Like I said, I guess you have some production/techie position- how exactly do you know what to make or do- or where it goes, or what the best price you can get is? Please God, don't tell me you work for the govt or a public utility.

Or do you interact with customers? Well, welcome to sales. Anyone that interacts with the customer has a sales functionality.

Whenever people complain about sales or 'middle-men' making too much money I just tell them that they are more then welcome to figure out a way to cut them out and take the money themselves. It happens everyday as technology and markets change- and its good. It makes things more efficient and wastes less resources.

The car example you have above is an example not of a business failure, but a govt failure. Laws that restrict trade interfere with markets clearing efficiently. Having to use a dealer is a great example with cars.

[26 Inf]

ramairthree and ColdDeadHand: Whoa guys, didn't want to start a tussle! This is what I meant:

Newsreel Announcer (archival): The tremendous crowds which you see gathered outside the stock exchange are due to the greatest crash in the history of the New York Stock Exchange in market prices.

Narrator: December 31st, New Year’s Eve. The crash and its terrible consequences were still in the future. Financial leaders, everyone celebrated what had been a decade of prosperity and boundless optimism. They thought the party would last forever. They called it “The New Era,” 1929. All the hope and promise and illusion of the 20s converged in that one year.

John Kenneth Galbraith, Economist: The United States is afflicted with new eras. Let us not think for a moment that the illusion, the aberration of the 1920s was unique. It is intimately a part of the American character.

Craig Mitchell, Son of Charles E. Mitchell: The mood of the era, I think, can best be remembered by the hit song – was that 1929, Blue Skies?

Rita Mitchell Cushman, Daughter of Charles E. Mitchell: In the 20s, yes, ’28, ’29.

Craig Mitchell, Son of Charles E. Mitchell: How did that go?

Rita Mitchell Cushman, Daughter of Charles E. Mitchell: Smiling at me…

Craig Mitchell, Son of Charles E. Mitchell: Yeah. Nothing but blue skies do I see. Yes.

Rita Mitchell Cushman, Daughter of Charles E. Mitchell: ...Never saw the sun shining so bright, Never saw things going so right. Gray days, all of them gone, nothing but blue skies from now on.

That was the whole tenor of the day. I mean, people believed that everything was going to be great always, always. There was a feeling of optimism in the air that you cannot even describe today.

Rita Mitchell Cushman, Daughter of Charles E. Mitchell: And everyone seemed to have an interest in the stock market. Certainly, the boot black, the tailor, the grocer owned shares of one kind or another.

Narrator: This was the first time that many ordinary Americans had begun to invest in stocks. A stock, a share of a company, is bought and sold here on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. The stocks themselves have no fixed value. As in an auction, if the stock is in demand, its price goes up. No demand and the price goes down. For almost eight straight years, stock values had been rising. By 1929, there seemed to be no upper limits in this world of paper, numbers and dreams.

Michael Nesbitt, Grandson of Michael J. Meehan: It was an arena of unbounded opportunity where somebody like my grandfather could come into it and make a fortune. So many people made so much money in the market that late in the 20s, it seemed that you just couldn’t go wrong buying stocks in American companies.

Narrator: Here was a whole new way to make a fortune. Unlike the Carnegies and the Rockefellers of previous decades, who built steel mills and dug oil wells, men like Michael Meehan, Jesse Livermore and Charles Mitchell had amassed their fortunes buying and selling stocks, pieces of paper. The public was fascinated. Bankers, brokers and speculators had become celebrities and they lived like royalty.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/transcript/crash-transcript/

Que to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYMD_W_r3Fg

As far as I'm concerned guys like Chainsaw Al Dunlap started us on our descent.....

[Sensei]

Glad to see that socialism is alive and well on M4C.com...

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Corruption is really hard to have with out some kind of interference in the market. I've done some work in India and people complain about the corruption, but most of it is at the hands of bureaucrats- put in place by govt.

A lot of the financial screwyness we have is due to implications of our tax code. I saw an analysis that a large portion of Soros' wealth came from manipulating gains and how they were taxed. Sure you can blame the financier, but it only comes with queering the tax code that things like this happen. Fannie and Freddie in the mortgage crisis are great examples of govt screwing with a market in a big way.

The Fed screwing with interest rates and inflating the currency. The interesting thing is that the money stays at high levels while not stimulating demand at lower economic levels. You get asset inflation with out wage increases- Progressive trumpet the recovery and then complain about the increasing wealth gap- all while we screw up the unskilled labor market by importing labor for any jobs we can't ship overseas - for business we drive offshore because of our screwy tax code.

[26 Inf]

Glad to see that socialism is alive and well on M4C.com...

Please help keep me out of trouble by giving me some discussion. okay?

I don't believe my views are socialist by any definition:

Merriam-Webster: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies;

Wiki: Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy,[1][2] as well as a political theory and movement that aims at the establishment of such a system.[3][4] "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership, citizen ownership of equity, or any combination of these.[5] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them.[6] They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets or planning, how management is to be organised within productive institutions, and the role of the state in constructing socialism.[7]

A socialist economy is based on the principle of production for use, to directly satisfy economic demand and human needs, and objects are valued by their use-value, as opposed to the principle of production for profit and accumulation of capital.

I don't believe that any of the statements I've made would jive with those definitions - I'm just not too down with 'eff you buddy, I've got mine' which is what I think society has by and large been turned into. I believe Chainsaw Al began the move to businesses not thinking of the personal costs of their decisions, thinking of employees as assets rather than people. There is an enmity between employer and employee based upon this that doesn't need to exist. If my belief that a 5% ROI and giving employees decent benefits rather than an 8% ROI and treating employees like minimum wage serfs, is socialism, then, yep, I'm a ****ing socialist.

My belief is that the basis of much of our problem is unfettered greed with little or no accountability. Which I think is pretty much what I said in my own inimitable way in an earlier post.

Regarding the post which you responded to, I simply was trying to go back and illustrate what I meant by:

'I feel that one of the great downfalls of our Nation is the fact that we have an entire class of folks who have become wealthy, not by physical labor, or physical creativity, but rather by the manipulation of the idea of money, moving it back and forth and creating no physical product.'

If you don't understand that our current economic model is a house of cards just waiting to collapse, then, my friend, we have greater problems then vastly differing definitions of socialism.

[26 Inf]

Corruption is really hard to have with out some kind of interference in the market. I've done some work in India and people complain about the corruption, but most of it is at the hands of bureaucrats- put in place by govt.

A lot of the financial screwyness we have is due to implications of our tax code. I saw an analysis that a large portion of Soros' wealth came from manipulating gains and how they were taxed. Sure you can blame the financier, but it only comes with queering the tax code that things like this happen. Fannie and Freddie in the mortgage crisis are great examples of govt screwing with a market in a big way.

The Fed screwing with interest rates and inflating the currency. The interesting thing is that the money stays at high levels while not stimulating demand at lower economic levels. You get asset inflation with out wage increases- Progressive trumpet the recovery and then complain about the increasing wealth gap- all while we screw up the unskilled labor market by importing labor for any jobs we can't ship overseas - for business we drive offshore because of our screwy tax code.

First of all I have to say that I understand that many of you believe in an entirely unregulated free market, while I am more of a Keynes guy, believing in minimal, appropriate regulation; to make it worse I believe that the Laffer Curve is voodoo economics, and unlike GHWB, I'll stand by that. :)

Getting past that, what are your ideas on taxation - flat tax, federal sales tax, or different progressive? From my simple perspective a sales tax is preferable, largely because it is a use tax and should in theory tax the shadow economies.

[TAZ]

Corruption, greed and all the other vices of the human animal have been around and will continue to be around. No changing that. I tend to be of the opinion that corruption is proportional to the amount of idiotic beurocracies that people have to deal with.

As much as I'd like to see the economy and profitability driven by production; I have no issue with someone doing something fairly and making themselves richer than snot. I believe in free market economics backed by limited regulation whose sole purpose is to insure equal access to the opportunity. Those regulations need to be objectively and consistently enforced. The whole justice is blind concept.

Whoever stated that the problem isn't corruption, but rather a complete acceptance of it but he nail on the head. If you routinely hold ALL people accountable for their deeds 90% of the problems we face could be managed. Unfortunately that isn't the end goal of anyone in power these days. Nobody wants to solve a thing; just take advantage of it.

[Sensei]

Please help keep me out of trouble by giving me some discussion.

I was referring to the person who spent most of the first page lamenting the fact that labor is not the wealthiest occupation in America. I have to shake my head whenever I read about the labor, class, producers, and the so called soft belly of capitalism. People who believe this crap need to stop typing because the operating system, microchips, and software they are using were conceived by some of America's richest people.

[CatSnipah]

I agree with one caveat - I would change corruption to accountability.

Corruption, inefficiency and immorality flourish when people are not held accountable for their actions, when they don't have to answer to the 'all' but rather 'the few.'

I find it humorous that the reading you linked is from 'zerohedge' because I feel that one of the great downfalls of our Nation is the fact that we have an entire class of folks who have become wealthy, not by physical labor, or physical creativity, but rather by the manipulation of the idea of money, moving it back and forth and creating no physical product.

It's kind of two-faced for me to say that because due to my investments I'm getting ready to punch out at roughly 1.5 times my current salary, but there you go.


Great post.

[26 Inf]

I was referring to the person who spent most of the first page lamenting the fact that labor is not the wealthiest occupation in America. I have to shake my head whenever I read about the labor, class, producers, and the so called soft belly of capitalism. People who believe this crap need to stop typing because the operating system, microchips, and software they are using were conceived by some of America's richest people.

Well, crap, I just wasted bandwidth! Good day to you sir!

[Sensei]

Well, crap, I just wasted bandwidth! Good day to you sir!

No problem. I should have been more specific with my sarcasm. Besides, it was not wasted bandwidth. It gave you a chance to develop your thought.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

First of all I have to say that I understand that many of you believe in an entirely unregulated free market, while I am more of a Keynes guy, believing in minimal, appropriate regulation; to make it worse I believe that the Laffer Curve is voodoo economics, and unlike GHWB, I'll stand by that. :)

Getting past that, what are your ideas on taxation - flat tax, federal sales tax, or different progressive? From my simple perspective a sales tax is preferable, largely because it is a use tax and should in theory tax the shadow economies.

Economics- and economists- are an interesting breed to study. Keynes, late in life was starting to question some of the effectiveness of 'Keynesian' policies. Some of Friedman's comments about 'class warfare' and how it isn't the top versus the bottom, but rather part of the top skimming off resources targeted to help the 'working class'- sound almost like Occupy Wall Street. Piketty's Capital was touted as a Socialist Manifesto and Krugman went all ga-ga until Piketty himself came out and said not so fast.

Taxes- What ever system just as long as it is simple, fair and transparent. Ours is complex, rigged and opaque. We are double progressive taxed in that we have a progressive tax rate and we also take away deductions/credits as income increases. Laffer is correct, maybe it isn't a curve, but it is an influence. We tax cigarettes in the hope to change behavior, why wouldn't it also affect employment. Especially when you are talking about two-earner households where one spouse makes more than the other and the higher tax rates & the social security tax impacts are analysed for each additional dollar.

I see corruption as any kind of queering of the market. The post 2008 financial 'reforms' are great examples of laws not actually achieving he goals they set out to do- and in fact making things worse. Solutions today, for yesterday's problems, that won't help in the future. Maybe even good intentions, but the drive to do 'something' (very prevalent in Progressive ideology) gets in the way of doing the right thing. This also clouds Progressives war on guns where they try to stop crazies from doing mass shootings by banning little plastic boxes.

I am very sensitive to 'labors' concerns. It wasn't till we starting making a little money that I realized how poor I really am. Being anti-capital, against income inequality and pro-regulation doesn't mean that you are helping labor, raising up the poor and making things fairer and better.

[MountainRaven]

Glad to see that socialism is alive and well on M4C.com...

Everyone is a free-market capitalist when it comes to their own assets. It's the assets being bought and sold by others that need to be controlled.

;)

[Cagemonkey]

Good Article. Sad, but true. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Besides the expected financial greed, the obsession with sex and porn is a bit alarming. Especially the LEO's and Govt types exploiting women and prostitutes. I'm no prude and as big a pig as any, but for people who represent authority and law this is a bit distressing. Our country really needs to check its so called morale compass IMO.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Good Article. Sad, but true. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Besides the expected financial greed, the obsession with sex and porn is a bit alarming. Especially the LEO's and Govt types exploiting women and prostitutes. I'm no prude and as big a pig as any, but for people who represent authority and law this is a bit distressing. Our country really needs to check its so called morale compass IMO.

They say the porn sites and/or Google have been tracking everyones porn site visits and it only a matter of time before you can 'google' someone to see their predilections and preferences.

No more secrets.

[ramairthree]

Actually on the other end of the equation cold dead hands.

Let me try another basic example.

Say I need 11 highly qualified and highly educated personnel.

They are in short supply.

I want to hire each on a personal contract or direct offer.

A federal requirement forces to go through a contracting service instead.

Instead of hiring these guys at 250$ an hour,
I have to go through a company that charges 300$ an hour.
They offer the individuals 200$ an hour,
and I can't get good people.

Then the contracting office forgets to put on the extension and I lose millions in budget that should have rolled over in my next year's budget.

No talent ass clowns in the contracting office,
in combination with no talent ass clowns trying to make a hundred bucks an hour off the talent I actually need,
have assured I get none of that talent, and messed up my budget, and they do not answer to it.

Hence the movement of many businesses to streamline and have a more direct senior level to talent/production assets and send a bunch of the middle management and non-producers packing.

And this allows more selective hiring.

Like,

When there were enough jobs for every middle management sales manager with a cow town degree and internet MBA, there was not.
Now if a company wants their sales manager to actually be a professional engineer with a brick and mortar MBA and a known producer, vs. a no talent ass clown pissing of the talent and marginally producing, they can.

I clearly stated I was using an over simplification in my counter guy example.

You are clearly focused on the increased sales that marketing and advertising bring more than paying for the employee doing so.

You are confusing the locusts I am talking about with the hay makers.

The value/role of hay maker is another discussion.