AMTRAK Wreck - General Information

[26 Inf]

Did not know if anyone had seen this - the engineer is reportedly cooperating - gave them blood and his cell phone, talking to police - but has no recollection of the moments before the crash. Probably a lot of us have suffered concussions and are familiar with the associated memory loss, in my own case I really never lost consciousness, but have no recollection of the incident or the 18-24 hours following. From the doctors' and nurses' accounts I was very entertaining and personable, which isn't the norm.

I wonder if we'll ever know? In my case I bent over on a roof, apparently got a 'blood rush' and fainted. My son said I just fell down and slid.

Edited to add: I'm not a railroader, but in my job I've spent some time around the regional railroad training center doing training for railroad police officers. Their locomotive/train simulators are freaking awesome in their realism. Based on those experiences and the engineers that I know, they are a serious-minded bunch in the cab of the locomotive.

Amtrak Engineer 'Very Distraught,' Doesn't Remember Crash, Attorney Says

By DAVID KERLEY, CLEOPATRA GEORGHIOU and MICHAEL S. JAMES

The engineer of the Amtrak train that crashed in Philadelphia "has absolutely no recollection of the incident or anything unusual" and "no explanation" for what caused the crash, his attorney told ABC News.

The engineer, Brandon Bostian, 32, of Queens, New York, was “very distraught” to learn that the crash killed at least seven people, the attorney, Robert Goggin, told ABC News. He added that Bostian voluntarily turned over a blood sample and his cell phone and is cooperating with authorities.

“I asked him if he had any medical issues,” Goggin said. “He said he had none. He's on no medications ... He has no health issues to speak of and just has no explanation.”

Goggin noted Bostian suffered injuries in the crash, including a concussion and injuries to his legs that required treatment at a hospital.

“He remembers driving the train,” Goggin said. “He remembers going to that area generally, [but] has absolutely no recollection of the incident or anything unusual. He recalls -- the next thing he recalls is being thrown around, coming to, finding his bag, getting his cell phone and dialing 911.”

Later, however, Bostian learned the details.

“The television was on in the police district, and the constant count and recounting of the incident was being broadcast in his face all morning, and he was distraught,” Goggin said.

Though Bostian retained an attorney, Goggin said, he has not stopped cooperating with police, and was willing to speak to National Transportation Safety Board investigators, as well.

An NTSB board member said an initial review of the train's data recorder shows that the train was going 106 mph three seconds before the recording ended, when the engineer pressed the full emergency brake application. The train was going 102 mph at the end of the recording. There is a 50 mph limit at the curve where the train derailed and a 70 mph limit for regional trains in the area preceding the curve, so the reason why the train was going so fast will be one of the biggest questions facing investigators.

Goggin said Bostian does not remember setting the emergency brake.

"He said he was pulling into speed-restricted track," Goggin said. "It was on speed-restricted track, and the next thing he recalls is waking up and looking for his cell phone."

Goggin said his client spent a great deal of time with police before he arrived.

“He was at the disposal of the police for six hours before I -- or five hours -- before I got on scene,” Goggin said.

“Among other things, they indicated that they wanted to get a search warrant for his blood, which we consented to,” Goggin added. “He said, ‘You don't need a search warrant, happy to give it to you.’ It had already been drawn at Einstein Hospital. They asked for his cell phone, which they had. [We] said, ‘Have it. Take all the information you want. You don't need a search warrant for that either. We'll give it to you.’ I'm assuming [authorities asked for the phone] because they want to see whether he was on the telephone at the time of the accident. So he's cooperated, and not only that, he's indicated that he would make himself available to the police if they need any more information.”

Goggin described his client’s physical condition as "pretty beat up." Besides a concussion, he said, “He's got 14 staples in his head, several stitches in his leg. He has one leg, the other leg immobilized with a knee problem. What he looked was exhausted.”

Even so, Goggin said, Bostian shares the same concerns as other interested parties.

“The main concern is just the overwhelming tragedy, the loss of life, the injuries to so many people,” Goggin said. “That's really the concern right now. That's his concern, that's the union’s concern, I'm certain [it’s] Amtrak’s concern. It's a tragedy on all fronts.”

According to his LinkedIn profile, Bostian has worked at Amtrak for nearly nine years, the first half of which he spent as a passenger conductor before he became a passenger engineer in December 2010.

https://gma.yahoo.com/amtrak-engineer-very-distraught-doesnt-remember-crash-attorney-044400565--abc-news-topstories.html

[El Vaquero]

That train was moving. 106mph on a 50 mph curve.

[skijunkie55]

That train was moving. 106mph on a 50 mph curve.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-O1RlaZnXlZQ/UXvROCxssyI/AAAAAAAACXY/16PLj2x98ZQ/s1600/unstoppable2d.jpg

[hatidua]

I don't know how fast Amtrak trains can accelerate, but would that train not have been scooting along at a fairly good pace for quite some distance to have gotten up to 106mph?

[SilverBullet432]

Good movie. Always a good job from DW.

[Coal Dragger]

This is a good example of what happens when you have only one person in the locomotive cab. The RR I work for has a few single man jobs on my division for helper service (locomotives stationed at the bottom of hills to shove trains over), and those one man engineer only crews seem to have more problems than average. The RR just quietly sweeps that shit under the rug, and pretends like everything is just great with their money saving idea to eliminate a job.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I see he is going with the Brady Defense.

[Coal Dragger]

He's going to have Tom Brady defend him? That should go well....

[Averageman]

Wondering if this was an attempt at suicide?
How do you explain going 2 X the speed for that curve?

[Coal Dragger]

Depends on the timetable speed of the rest of the subdivision he was operating on, and the lovations of any other permanent or temporary speed restrictions. Heading into that curve if timetable speed allows for 100+ mph gives very little time to slow down if you nod off (it happens) or aren't paying attention. There's a good chance he blew some other slow orders on the way into that curve. As to why, that remains to be seen. When you're covering 1 mile every 40 seconds or so, it's easy to get in trouble if you're running a train like it's a damn sports car. Speed restrictions are only marked 2 miles in advance, at those speeds there's no way in hell I'm running on the flags, I'm slowing down well before that to give greater margin for error even on a light passenger train.

My guess is this is a bad case of operator error. Knowing how most RR's treat their train, yard, and engine service employee's fatigue may have been an issue here. With no one but himself in the cab nodding off is sadly a reality of the job. There is an alerter in the cab to make annoying sounds every 60 seconds if no control inputs are made. At 100 MPH you're covering over 1.5 miles between alerter activations, that don't really keep you awake if you're dog ass tired. Heaven forbid the RR's retained a fireman (junior engineer) to spell a tired engineer, keep each other awake, and of course speak up or take action when the train is going to be out of control.

I know all the talking heads keep harping about PTC, but so far that technology is not exactly super refined. It does some wacky shit if it gets confused, usually stopping the train for no reason with an emergency brake application. Lot's of fun, and why most PTC computers get shut off when equipped.

Oh well, what the hell do I know? I only do this shit for a living.

[Mauser KAR98K]

Depends on the timetable speed of the rest of the subdivision he was operating on, and the lovations of any other permanent or temporary speed restrictions. Heading into that curve if timetable speed allows for 100+ mph gives very little time to slow down if you nod off (it happens) or aren't paying attention. There's a good chance he blew some other slow orders on the way into that curve. As to why, that remains to be seen. When you're covering 1 mile every 40 seconds or so, it's easy to get in trouble if you're running a train like it's a damn sports car. Speed restrictions are only marked 2 miles in advance, at those speeds there's no way in hell I'm running on the flags, I'm slowing down well before that to give greater margin for error even on a light passenger train.

My guess is this is a bad case of operator error. Knowing how most RR's treat their train, yard, and engine service employee's fatigue may have been an issue here. With no one but himself in the cab nodding off is sadly a reality of the job. There is an alerter in the cab to make annoying sounds every 60 seconds if no control inputs are made. At 100 MPH you're covering over 1.5 miles between alerter activations, that don't really keep you awake if you're dog ass tired. Heaven forbid the RR's retained a fireman (junior engineer) to spell a tired engineer, keep each other awake, and of course speak up or take action when the train is going to be out of control.

I know all the talking heads keep harping about PTC, but so far that technology is not exactly super refined. It does some wacky shit if it gets confused, usually stopping the train for no reason with an emergency brake application. Lot's of fun, and why most PTC computers get shut off when equipped.

Oh well, what the hell do I know? I only do this shit for a living.

It's almost the same in the trucking industry. Yeah, the DOT 10 hour break is nice, but it isn't enough. The 14 hour rule places more fatigue on drivers than anything. Plus, the demands of the company and customers.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

He's going to have Tom Brady defend him? That should go well....

No, that he knows nothing about anything.

[nimdabew]

It's almost the same in the trucking industry. Yeah, the DOT 10 hour break is nice, but it isn't enough. The 14 hour rule places more fatigue on drivers than anything. Plus, the demands of the company and customers.

Same for pilots too. 8 hours of flight time could easily mean 12 hour duty days if there is a layover in a city, preflight prep, post flight, and writing any squawks for the aircraft.

[jmp45]

Chris Matthews blames the accident on lack of straight tracks. Another brilliant observation from the left..


MATTHEWS to Rep. Steve Israel (D-N.Y.): But we have a country where people can complain. In Communist countries like China, they just draw a straight line, whether it goes through your house or not, it's a straight line. We have this Amtrak, I've been taking it for a half a century, it doesn't go in a straight line. In this case, it tried to make a turn and turned over! Because there's so many turns on that route. How do you get rid of the turns?

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2015/05/13/chris-matthews-blames-lack-straight-lines-train-crash

[Coal Dragger]

**** Chris Matthews is stupid.

[jmp45]

**** Chris Matthews is stupid.

He's insane.

[TacticalSledgehammer]

Fatigue, stress, distraction, and a possible medical situation could have played a role in the crash. PTC is a backup for us to make sure we do our jobs safely. It will alert you when you get close to something important (speed restriction, stop signal, etc) and require you to take action. Having said that, I know of no railroad with this system fully operational. As with anything electrical, it shouldn't be trusted and they need to keep their conductor (or hire an extra person) in the locomotive cab instead of in the passenger cars. In freight train service the major railroads are wanting to eliminate the conductor position entirely. It will ultimately take a set of eyes out of the cab and will make the engineer responsible for everything. If that happens, I'd bet accidents and derailment will rise. More workers will be injured moving this heavy stuff around....etc

[jpmuscle]

From today

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/16/us/amtrak-train-may-have-been-struck-before-it-derailed-officials-say.html?_r=0&referrer=

[Averageman]

Chris Matthews blames the accident on lack of straight tracks. Another brilliant observation from the left..



http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2015/05/13/chris-matthews-blames-lack-straight-lines-train-crash

http://www.biography.com/people/chris-matthews-21051451#politics
Politics
Matthews’ childhood interest in politics carried over into his adulthood. After he returned from his Peace Corps work in Africa, he worked as an aide to U.S. Senator Frank Moss, a Democrat representing Utah. In 1974 Matthews ran for the U.S. House of Representatives as a Democratic candidate representing Pennsylvania, but his run proved unsuccessful. In the mid-1970s, Matthew’s moved to Washington, D.C., where he was offered the job of congressional staffer under Senator Edmund Muskie, a Democrat from Maine. From 1974 to 1977, Matthews additionally worked as a staff assistant to the Senate Budget Committee.

When Jimmy Carter became president, Matthews served as his speechwriter. During the Carter administration, Matthews also handled press relations for the President’s Reorganization Project, a directive for reorganizing executive offices and federal government agencies. In 1981 Matthews became top aide to Speaker of the House Tip O’Neill. Matthews was forced to abandon the position when O’Neill retired in 1987.
Life long Democrat Operative.
Wrote Speeches for Carter, well, that explains a lot. Oddly enough nothing about working on the rail road.

[Averageman]

From today

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/16/us/amtrak-train-may-have-been-struck-before-it-derailed-officials-say.html?_r=0&referrer=

That makes you wonder.

[jerrysimons]

Track speed prior to 50mph curve is reported to be 80mph. NTSB said the train accelerated 30mph to 102-106mph in 45-65 seconds before derailment in the curve. No doubt it derailed due to excessive speed but how did the train get going that fast? The acceleration is definitely doable with the light, short Amtrak trains. The time elapsed of acceleration is about the span of an alerter cycle. But if he feel asleep at cruising speed between alerter alarms it doesn't explain the drastic acceleration. Maybe he feel asleep after notching up the throttle input but that means he throttled up and then nodded off at about the exact time he should have started slowing down for the curve. It is such a massive instance of incompetence from a respected engineer that it is hardly believable it was an oversit or mistake. Given what his co-workers are saying about him, nothing makes sense if framed as negligence. A suicide attempt is more believable to me than an oversite.

[Mauser KAR98K]

That makes you wonder.

Still doesn't explain the jump to 100mph. Common sense would say to slow down after a strike like what is being described.

[TacticalSledgehammer]

Track speed prior to 50mph curve is reported to be 80mph. NTSB said the train accelerated 30mph to 102-106mph in 45-65 seconds before derailment in the curve. No doubt it derailed due to excessive speed but how did the train get going that fast? The acceleration is definitely doable with the light, short Amtrak trains. The time elapsed of acceleration is about the span of an alerter cycle. But if he feel asleep at cruising speed between alerter alarms it doesn't explain the drastic acceleration. Maybe he feel asleep after notching up the throttle input but that means he throttled up and then nodded off at about the exact time he should have started slowing down for the curve. It is such a massive instance of incompetence from a respected engineer that it is hardly believable it was an oversit or mistake. Given what his co-workers are saying about him, nothing makes sense if framed as negligence. A suicide attempt is more believable to me than an oversite.
I'm not sure what Amtrak's schedules are like but if it's anything like freight service, your sleep schedules are pretty jacked up. I don't think it was a suicide attempt was what his goal. It just seems like he could have ended it for himself in many more suicide successful senereos than this.
The fact the FBI is investigating leads me to wonder if he may have had an unexpected visitor enter cab. Or potentially he could have been shot at. I could see a gunshot becoming distracting for a few seconds while the shock wears off. I've been shot at before on board and it takes a few seconds for the oh-shit factor to go away.

[Mauser KAR98K]

Would the hit have broken his conscientration and he forgot where he was on the line and bumped up the speed?

[Averageman]

Would the hit have broken his conscientration and he forgot where he was on the line and bumped up the speed?
At that point the number of human or mechanical error possibilities are too many to count.
I would hate to awaken in the midst of a terrible wreck and have no idea how or why I killed so many people, don't know if I could live with that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/16/us/amtrak-train-may-have-been-struck-before-it-derailed-officials-say.html?WT.mc_id=2015-MAY-AOL-US_AUD_DEV-0501-0531&WT.mc_ev=click&ad-keywords=MAYAUDDEV&icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-sb-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D507654903&_r=0

At a news conference on Friday, Robert L. Sumwalt, the safety board official who is leading the investigation, said an assistant conductor had reported that she believed she heard a radio transmission in which an engineer on a regional line said his train had been struck by a projectile and the engineer on the Amtrak train replied that his had been struck, too.
Mr. Sumwalt said that investigators had found a fist-size circular area of impact on the left side of the Amtrak train’s windshield and that they had asked the Federal Bureau of Investigation to analyze it. He said that the F.B.I. had been called in because it has the forensics expertise needed for the investigation, but that it had not yet begun its analysis.

[jerrysimons]

I'm not sure what Amtrak's schedules are like but if it's anything like freight service, your sleep schedules are pretty jacked up. I don't think it was a suicide attempt was what his goal. It just seems like he could have ended it for himself in many more suicide successful senereos than this.
The fact the FBI is investigating leads me to wonder if he may have had an unexpected visitor enter cab. Or potentially he could have been shot at. I could see a gunshot becoming distracting for a few seconds while the shock wears off. I've been shot at before on board and it takes a few seconds for the oh-shit factor to go away.

I am sure Amtrak crews are run into the ground just like freight, often committee service have these split duty schedules where 12hrs of service are split by a period of "rest" inbetween arrival and return trips.

Yeah I find a suiciede attempt hard to believe also, it is just more believable, IMO, than he forgot the curve was there and took off or that he simply feel asleep given the throttle controls. Those trains are fast being so small and light by he still would have had to "floor it" to take off like that from cruising speed. It just doesn't make sense how he ended up going so fast precisely when he should have been slowing down. The projectile development is interesting and may have distracted him enough to notch up the throttle instead of setting dynamic brakes, but dang, that differance is physically opposite control manipulation and is something almost second nature. Now I say that but the CSX incident the movie Unstoppable is based on, the moron set the throttle higher instead on the dynamic break before he jumped off the train attempting to throw the switch before getting back on. So I suppose it is possible when you are not honking straight but still 60seconds went by while the train was accelerating.

It is indeed a big mystery, and the kicker is the NTSB knows already! Those data recorders show what the throttle settings were in addition to everything else and it takes more like hours anylize it not days.

What is shocking to me is the difference between passenger and freight crew wise. Freight trains have two crew members in the lead engine, who are by federal regulation of duties, jointly responsible for the trains operation, having a speed cap of 70mph. Yet passenger trains, full of hundreds of people, with speeds up to 120mph, operating on the same tracks as freight in many areas, have just a lonely engineer up front with everyone's life in his hands while the jointly responsible conductor is just a fare collecter and crowd control in the back.

[jpmuscle]

What is shocking to me is the difference between passenger and freight crew wise. Freight trains have two crew members in the lead engine, who are by federal regulation of duties, jointly responsible for the trains operation, having a speed cap of 70mph. Yet passenger trains, full of hundreds of people, with speeds up to 120mph, operating on the same tracks as freight in many areas, have just a lonely engineer up front with everyone's life in his hands while the jointly responsible conductor is just a fare collecter and crowd control in the back.


So why has it come to be like that?

[Mauser KAR98K]

So why has it come to be like that?

I would wager the same as in the trucking industry: can't find qualified people willing to do the job.

[jerrysimons]

So why has it come to be like that?

Mostly due to carriers reducing operating costs of labor coupled with, in some instances, technological advances. Passenger service does require a crew member or two to oversee the safety of the passengers and collect fares from walk on riders but to that end the conductor still has to comply with FRA (federal railroad administration) duty requirements that were written as though he were riding in the cab with the engineer. Chiefly the conductor's job is ensuring signal and speed compliance as well as communication and coordination with dispatchers and other trains. The conductor is basically in charge of the train, his job is quite literally to ensure the engineer meets the requirements of his job, in addition to performing whatever ground work is necessary along a trip like inspecting brake systems, applying hand brakes, switching cars, connecting air hoses, train makeup compliance, etc. Engineers get all the attention but the head Conductor on Amtrak 188 is in as much trouble as the engineer is at this point. The issue with passenger service is that the conductor is mostly preoccupied with his additional duties related to overseeing the passengers and really only artificially complies with the duties related to train operation. In passenger service, since the elimination of the "fireman" position in the 70s-80s, the engineer is really up there by himself and the conductor is in the back with the passengers. Freight service does not have these passenger duties and the conductor is up front with the engineer together ensuring train is operated safely according to territory requirements.

Carriers are seeking to eliminate the conductor position on freight trains and replace his job with PTC (positive train control) which is an integrated computer system in which train computers communicate with the track signal system and GPS satellites to know where they are operating and failsafe operate the train in compliance if the engineer fails to manually do so. The ground work required along a trip would in theory be preformed by roving conductors responsible for assisting all trains within given area. PTC is one step toward automated trains driving themselves...
Passenger aircraft can fly themselves and can even land under autopilot but still FAA mandates two pilots on board the plane at all times. I think it is a bad idea to eliminate the second crew member off of trains, which is part of why I brought up how the engineer is basically alone in passenger trains. A second pair of eyes knowing what was going on in the engine could/should have prevented the Amtrak 188 derailment. Carriers are happy to keep the conductor preoccupied with passengers as long as they can artificially comply with operation requirements because labor is the second highest cost behind fuel and hiring additional qualified crew members making 6 figures with benefits is too expensive. Carriers are focused on implementing technology that is supposedly fool proof. In the mean time passenger trains are essentially operated by one man doing everything, with the idea that the engineer is going to get compliance oversight once PTC is finally implemented.

[jpmuscle]

Gotcha. Thanks for the insight

[Coal Dragger]

RR's don't give a rat's ass about the safety of the public or their employees. The bottom line is all that matters, they long ago did the math predicting it would be cheaper to settle law suits and pay fines for potential liability issues associated with eliminating crew members, or otherwise not spending money on safety issues.