View Full Version : Making an RRA better?
Inimitable
07-16-08, 00:34
Ok, I own an RRA Entry Tacitical. Some of you seem to think it's functional as a combat rifle, others regard it as they would their ex-wives (if applicable). I bought the gun at cost from a friend who made that available to me. I was influenced by that fact, the DEA contract, as well as my concerns that this type of weapon might not be available for much longer. I consider myself informed but in this case, you could probably say I knee jerked.
Yeah, I've got all the ninja warrior stuff; Magpul stock and grip, LaRue handguard and mini red dot, Tango Down rail panels, vertical grip, etc;. All the crap this newb wanted to see on this gun. I've shot it 3 times, approx. 120/140 rounds total. At 50 and 100 yards I'm shooting one inch groups. At 200 I have no trouble hitting an 8" circle. I would seem "good enough" to me and at this juncture I will probably keep the gun. I'm also itching to train more extensively with it, which brings me (finally) to my point.
I have read the article That Rob_S posted and noted all the varied pluses and minuses attached to my rifle. What I would like to know is what are the most important changes I CAN put into effect in order to make this weapon more reliable and more combat worthy for the long term??
Make sure the gas key and castle nut on the receiver extension are both properly staked as described in the other threads here. Search for staking.
Get a Bravo Co extrator upgrade kit, and install it. You probably won't need the O-Ring to start. But install the black bumper and new extractor spring.
Your total out of pocket? $10 to include shipping (probably less) and will have you on your way to making your rifle more reliable.
You also didn't mention what type of role you see this rifle playing? Duty? Home defense? Range plinker, etc? If others know what your desired goal is it will make it easier to make suggestions to get you to that goal.
Enjoy the rifle!
-RD62
Inimitable
07-16-08, 10:32
Hey, thanks for the info. I did happen to find another Rob_S post that addressed the staking issue (and others) just after posting last night.
Ultimately, I'm looking at this gun to be a home defense weapon. I would also include the proverbial SHTF scenario. Don't know if I will be able to expand my options before (god forbid) Oblama takes office in January. Assuming the gun will see some use (Training and plinking) but not "hard use", I would rectify the 5 main issues Rob_S discusses and I'm thinking some spare parts, another barrel, etc; would be necessary.
Any other suggestions to make this gun combat worthy?
AwaySooner
07-16-08, 10:47
See what C4IGrant did to the Bushmaster, you probably need to do all that to the RRA. I had a RRA Entry Tactical as well as my first, after reading here and decided to sell it, simply because I didn't buy it for the price, but I didn't know any better.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13532&highlight=bushmaster
I wouldn't bother with a new barrel. The one you have, while not perhaps the pinnacle of materiality, will suffice just fine. Most people will shoot out a barrel before they ever get into any issues that could be addressed by HPT/MPI or better steel, and frankly very few people ever shoot out a barrel.
It is chrome-lined, right? You said you were influenced by the DEA purchase so I'm assuming you bought one of the DEA models? I think all of those were chrome lined but can't remember for sure...
I own the same model you have. The staking of the carrier key and receiver extension nut are critical as is the extractor upgrade. Next, get yourself a MP/HPT bolt for a spare. I personally just went with a whole new BCG from BCM and kept the original bolt as a spare. The M16 carrier which comes with the BCM BCG helps with performance and reliability. I had my barrel cut to 14.5" and the flash hider pinned. I don't think you need to do that, but it does add to performance and reliability. An H-buffer, especially with a 16" barrel, would also enhance performance and reliability. Those enhancements should put you where you want to be. Make sure to secure all accessory/sight mounting screws with blue Loktite, also.
A good quality carbine course that has you shooting 1K over a 2-3 day period is hard use. It is an excellent test for your weapon.
Write up on an Entry Tactical bought by a troop.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6959
Forgot about the 2-stage trigger. For a defensive gun I'd probably replace that two. The CAR buffer should work, but I might would swap it for an H buffer too. The bolt will work, but as mentioned I would pick up a Bravo Co MPI bolt and keep the RRA bolt for a spare.
Happy shooting!
-RD62
Forgot about the 2-stage trigger.
Most definitely dump that two-stage!
[QUOTE=rmecapn;192405]I own the same model you have. The staking of the carrier key and receiver extension nut are critical as is the extractor upgrade. Next, get yourself a MP/HPT bolt for a spare. I personally just went with a whole new BCG from BCM and kept the original bolt as a spare. The M16 carrier which comes with the BCM BCG helps with performance and reliability. I had my barrel cut to 14.5" and the flash hider pinned. I don't think you need to do that, but it does add to performance and reliability. An H-buffer, especially with a 16" barrel, would also enhance performance and reliability. Those enhancements should put you where you want to be. Make sure to secure all accessory/sight mounting screws with blue Loktite, also.
A good quality carbine course that has you shooting 1K over a 2-3 day period is hard use. It is an excellent test for your weapon.[/QUOTE--good advise!
agulczynski1
07-16-08, 23:44
Why dump the two stage trigger? I realize a standard "one stage" trigger has a beefier hammer, but any other reasons?
Inimitable
07-17-08, 01:25
I wouldn't bother with a new barrel. The one you have, while not perhaps the pinnacle of materiality, will suffice just fine. Most people will shoot out a barrel before they ever get into any issues that could be addressed by HPT/MPI or better steel, and frankly very few people ever shoot out a barrel.
It is chrome-lined, right? You said you were influenced by the DEA purchase so I'm assuming you bought one of the DEA models? I think all of those were chrome lined but can't remember for sure...
The standard Entry Tactical barrel is a 16" Chrome Moly R-4 Barrel, 1:9 twist. When I mentioned the "DEA" contract, I was stating that this 5 year deal with the Feds was in itself a recommendation for this brand of rifle. I have friends who own Colts and in the process of researching my purchase I was told that a Colt was top tier, but, expensive and hard to come by. That and the fact that I could get RRA for a little over $700 pushed me closer to the brink. At that time, I had noted brands like LMT and Noveske, etc; but I couldn't beat the price for RRA and was completely unaware of the forementioned issues.
I guess for the $300 hundred bucks I saved, I can certainly buy some much needed swag for my current rifle.
I truly appreciate all ya'lls input. Thank you.
Inimitable
07-17-08, 01:27
Oh, and what is negative about the 2 stage trigger? Even my Colt guys found it a pleasure to shoot.
I had my barrel cut to 14.5" and the flash hider pinned. I don't think you need to do that, but it does add to performance and reliability.
How does having the barrel cut and pinned enhance performance or reliability?
I am always amazed when I see people buy a weapon that won a .Gov contract. This should just about ALWAYS be viewed a RED FLAG to avoid that weapon.
C4
But isn't the "gold standard" of AR15s milspec (AKA: govt contract)?
Oh, and what is negative about the 2 stage trigger?
Durability.
Even my Colt guys found it a pleasure to shoot.
Most do.
But isn't the "gold standard" of AR15s milspec (AKA: govt contract)?
You are confusing .Gov with .Mil. The part that matters is if the US Govt (military) issued the company the TDP. RRA did not get this document.
Also, the "gold standard" as you call it should ONLY be viewed as the starting point on how to build an AR. ;)
C4
Robb Jensen
07-17-08, 09:44
Mil-spec as Grant says should be a baseline.
Just like Prime is a grade of meat. Not all Prime grade meat is equal in quality it's just a standard to be met.
rubberneck
07-17-08, 09:52
I am always amazed when I see people buy a weapon that won a .Gov contract. This should just about ALWAYS be viewed a RED FLAG to avoid that weapon.
C4
I dunno about that. The Springfield Professional is a really good 1911 despite winning the FBI contract.;)
I dunno about that. The Springfield Professional is a really good 1911 despite winning the FBI contract.;)
I wonder how many .gov contracts Colt has :p
I dunno about that. The Springfield Professional is a really good 1911 despite winning the FBI contract.;)
You are right. There are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule. As a general rule though, it is not wise to follow what the FEDERAL Govt buys.
C4
I wonder how many .gov contracts Colt has :p
Hard to say. They do hold the TDP though. The other AR manufacturers (less FN) do not. ;)
C4
Durability.
Exactly. There are more than enough reports of what amounts to a slam fire that I won't have one. I've shot them. My gun dealer thinks they're great. They don't offer enough for me to risk the problems and issues surrounding them.
Hard to say. They do hold the TDP though. The other AR manufacturers (less FN) do not. ;)
C4
Sabre
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1155 ;)
Sabre
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1155 ;)
They are the new contract award winner, but we will wait and see if the Govt actually orders anything. They also might not get the official TDP.
What will also be interesting is to see if SD upgrades their current weapons to meet a higher spec.
C4
Sabres contract is also for M16A3s, not M4s, FWIW.
Sabres contract is also for M16A3s, not M4s, FWIW.
Right. Generally the way it works is that the company that holds a TDP for certain weapon platform, they do not not share it and will fight to keep it to themselves.
So I think it will be interesting to see if SD actually get's any orders and if they are ever issued the offical TDP.
C4
I've had two RRA TE's. The first one I bought before they were the "new" hot builder. Ken Hackathorn recommended them at that time. I didn't know squat about them but got a good deal. It had a chromo barrel which was the only negative other than the damn thing was a tack driver. I shot 2" groups with the irons and 1" groups with a 4 moa Aimpoint. That gun ran like a damn sewing machine. ZERO malfunctions. I only sold it after the ban was lifted and bought another post ban version to replace it. I've run thousands of rounds through this one and again zero malfunctions.
You can TDP this and that. Spend $1500 on a rifle and sleep better at night. Push comes to shove I know I can fight with my lowly RRA. It's been dropped and thrown 5 yards and never missed a lick, never lost zero (aimpoint or irons). BTW that second one came with the black extractor insert a couple of years ago not a blue one like my first, FWIW. The key staking is an issue to address. I like the two stage trigger group. Works fine for me.
I'm not saying they are the best guns out there or that you should buy one. From my experience they have worked just fine. Any given year there are good and bad production runs by (insert company name here). That's a fact of life.
Part of our training is how to deal with mechanical stoppages. They all stop eventually. Buy the best you can afford and deal with it. Take the steps that ensure higher reliability, such as in Grant's Bushmaster post.
I've had two RRA TE's. The first one I bought before they were the "new" hot builder. Ken Hackathorn recommended them at that time. I didn't know squat about them but got a good deal. It had a chromo barrel which was the only negative other than the damn thing was a tack driver. I shot 2" groups with the irons and 1" groups with a 4 moa Aimpoint. That gun ran like a damn sewing machine. ZERO malfunctions. I only sold it after the ban was lifted and bought another post ban version to replace it. I've run thousands of rounds through this one and again zero malfunctions.
You can TDP this and that. Spend $1500 on a rifle and sleep better at night. Push comes to shove I know I can fight with my lowly RRA. It's been dropped and thrown 5 yards and never missed a lick, never lost zero (aimpoint or irons). BTW that second one came with the black extractor insert a couple of years ago not a blue one like my first, FWIW. The key staking is an issue to address. I like the two stage trigger group. Works fine for me.
I'm not saying they are the best guns out there or that you should buy one. From my experience they have worked just fine. Any given year there are good and bad production runs by (insert company name here). That's a fact of life.
Part of our training is how to deal with mechanical stoppages. They all stop eventually. Buy the best you can afford and deal with it. Take the steps that ensure higher reliability, such as in Grant's Bushmaster post.
Back in the day, RRA was the new entry level AR to beat. They did a lot things well (better than they do now IMHO). Same goes for BM. At one time, they were pushing out a lot of quality AR's I think.
Most lower tiered AR's run in the $850-$950 range. By my public school math, you can get into an LMT (buying the upper and lower seperate) for around $930. So the question I always have to ask is, why bother with a RRA or BM???
C4
+1 for what Grant said ,a lot of companys start out great than build a name and than strat slipping on the QC. Bushmaster is a prime example . I too would prefer to start out with an LMT or Bravo upper and get a good lower and end up with a better weapon for less . did not know RRA had slipped,sad to hear it .
biodegraded
07-17-08, 13:40
Also, the "gold standard" as you call it should ONLY be viewed as the starting point on how to build an AR.
I'm just getting into the AR scene significantly, so am following this thread with interest. My question regarding the quote is, given that the "gold standard" TDP is secret, how do we know when something is better than it?
I'm just getting into the AR scene significantly, so am following this thread with interest. My question regarding the quote is, given that the "gold standard" TDP is secret, how do we know when something is better than it?
While the TDP is technically a controlled document, there are enough of us around that know if something is superior or not to it.
Like for instance, the Noveske N4 barrels. These are superior to the TDP required spec IMHO. VLTOR Forged MUR's, better than the required spec. Smith Enterprise Vortex, better than the required spec. The list goes on and on.
C4
Most lower tiered AR's run in the $850-$950 range. By my public school math, you can get into an LMT (buying the upper and lower seperate) for around $930. So the question I always have to ask is, why bother with a RRA or BM???
C4
No way I can argue your logic there Grant. Doing that exact thing with my future SBR build.
No way I can argue your logic there Grant. Doing that exact thing with my future SBR build.
I wrote an article on this for my site, based on this thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4524).
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.