View Full Version : Is modern America a "warrior culture"?
This is something I've been thinking for a while. I'm a bit torn to be honest. To be clear, I'm talking about American society as a whole, for what it's worth. It's without doubt that America has a warrior subculture... we're all part of it. The question is more... can America itself be considered a warrior culture. And yes, it's more difficult because 99%+ of the population immigrated at some point.
Look at a wide spectrum of warrior cultures, like the Sengoku-era Japanese, the Maori, the Mongols, the late Republic and early Roman Empire, the Spartans, the Apache, and the Vikings. From honorable single combat to professional conscripted soldiers, from hunters-turned-conquerors to fearless raiders just trying to get by. There's a huge variety of what any person could consider a warrior culture. But is America such a culture?
Can you define a warrior culture by the percentage that participates in war? Japan may be disqualified if that's the case.
Perhaps the percentage of time that the society spends in warfare versus in peace? But if that were the case, a great many nations, societies, and cultures would qualify that normally one would not think of as a warrior culture.
Maybe discipline? Discipline takes many forms and is worth talking about... although America has pretty much everything but discipline.
Maybe a willingness to die in combat? Is that for the entire population or just the warriors?
Outlander Systems
05-18-15, 05:27
http://images.politico.com/global/2013/12/18/131218_lowry_pajamaboy.jpg
Nah, ninja. ^^^^That's what this country has become.
http://images.politico.com/global/2013/12/18/131218_lowry_pajamaboy.jpg
Nah, ninja. ^^^^That's what this country has become.
Disgusting.
As a 27 yr old, I can honestly say I believe I'm a dying breed...
Interesting discussion topic. I shall ponder. Also koshinn your avatar is a huge win.
The_War_Wagon
05-18-15, 06:59
Maybe discipline? Discipline takes many forms and is worth talking about... although America has pretty much everything but discipline.
And THERE'S your winning answer. The UN-disciplined majority have DECLARED "war" ON discipline, morality, Christianity, law enforcement & the legal system, masculinity, and any tradition that contributed to building America's greatness (honesty, hard work, ingenuity, et.al.).
NOW we're left with the Harpy/entitlement/homosexual/anti-social/self-absorbed ethic in America. In OTHER words... :bad:
http://thepunditpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Hillary-and-Obama-Laughing.jpg
No. America does have a rough yesterday during its early days, that could be considered a warrior type culture. Being that America has been a lot of war over the years, perhaps the Military- I do not know, I am not in it- is its own Warrior culture. Fighting and going to war is not enough, though. There needs to be guiding ideals behind the actions.
I think there is a difference between being at war and having a warrior culture. Throughout history all wars have been waged by a small percent of warriors and a majority of poor schmucks caught in a wrong time, wrong place...
The USA is by far NOT a warrior culture. We may be a culture at war, but we are NOT warriors. Hell the USA is pretty much at war with culture if you want to be technical.
Our culture worships violence, we are not a warrior culture. We worship a lot of things that are carnal... but that is a topic for another thread.
I don't think the US has a "warrior culture" so much as we have a warrior class and a worshipping and glorification of that class that has come up from the ashes of Vietnam.
America revels in violence without discipline. Our most popular sport, pro football, is a shining example of this. People love the violence on the field and the stupidity off the field.
I don't think the US has a "warrior culture" so much as we have a warrior class and a worshipping and glorification of that class that has come up from the ashes of Vietnam.
America revels in violence without discipline. Our most popular sport, pro football, is a shining example of this. People love the violence on the field and the stupidity off the field.
This is very interesting!
Interesting discussion topic. I shall ponder. Also koshinn your avatar is a huge win.
Thanks!
I don't think the US has a "warrior culture" so much as we have a warrior class and a worshipping and glorification of that class that has come up from the ashes of Vietnam.
America revels in violence without discipline. Our most popular sport, pro football, is a shining example of this. People love the violence on the field and the stupidity off the field.
This seems like a great answer. I see very few people I would call a warrior.
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In short, no.
Warrior cultures are typified by the non-warrior members of society at least recognizing the threat (often existential) they were under by outside forces.
The non-warriors also supported the warrior class, or at least understood the importance of their work at home to the defense of the state and homeland. Educators taught youth the importance of civics and how their future professions, warrior or not, supported the nation.
A high percentage of the adult population were also veterans themselves, which made this easier.
National leadership also backed their defenders. Decisions to go to war or not, and strategic shifts or withdrawals were made by people who either knew the consequences from experience, or at least had some understanding of the repercussions.
I'll leave it to the reader to decide if this is us.
Some of the answers are speaking of the population as a whole, I don't believe that post industrial era there have been many, if any, civilized (wrong word) cultures where the warrior ethos permeated the entire population.
The Samurai were a subset of Japanese society, IMO you would be wrong to call the Japanese a Warrior Society simply because of the Samurai.
One of the problems that I see is that my definition of a warrior may be very different than yours. Warriors are not rapers and pillagers, to me they are folks that step up and do the right thing when needed and then step back after the job is done. Ego involvement for a true warrior is nil, they do what is needed because it needed done.
I have a higher opinion of most of my fellow citizens than many seem to profess. Even during the hippie generation - there was no shortage of volunteers to fly helicopters into hot LZ's - the protestors and anti-war activists were a subset, not a majority of the population.
Someone spoke of discipline - yes, many of our citizens do seem to be undisciplined in traditional activities and behavior. But if we put them into a situation where they are motivated to achieve, they may surprise you. My daughters live like wolves - if I let them - yet both of them are highly focused and motivated in several areas, music and sports. I've seen and heard my youngest play a section over and over on her trap set to get it just right, ditto the oldest who will repetitively practice the fingering and bowing needed to play a difficult selection on her bass. And they have both swim 2 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, for the last 8 years. The kids they hang with are just as focused, and just as undisciplined in the same areas.
I know my basis for comparison is small, based on my experience, but I think all of us suffer from that same bias. And, I think we are saying the same exact thing my great grandfather said about my grandpa, and my grandpa said about my dad.....
brickboy240
05-18-15, 11:33
In the age of "pajama boy" and every kid gets a trophy....are you kidding?
LOL
The "pussification" of the American males has been underway in our society for many years now.
Yes. We have a rainbow warrior culture. The preferred weapon is an undisciplined tongue, used to lash out at anything it doesn't understand. :(
Flankenstein
05-18-15, 11:54
http://images.politico.com/global/2013/12/18/131218_lowry_pajamaboy.jpg
Nah, ninja. ^^^^That's what this country has become.
/thread
Mall Warriors perhaps, little else.
Sadly, no. As noted above, subcultures. Maybe even subcultures within subcultures.
This is a good read: http://www.amazon.com/Stoic-Warriors-Ancient-Philosophy-Military/dp/019531591X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1431967953&sr=8-1&keywords=stoic+warriors
This country has never been a warrior culture. Of course we made short work of the warrior culture that was here before us. You probably don't want to live in a warrior culture, it's not for most people and it's very exclusionary.
I would say NO.
Even in the Military most of the people don't even have the Warrior Mindset. Hell, most are just going through the passes. There are exceptions but not as many as you would think.
OH a pic is worth a 1000 words for sure and this is sadly becoming the majority I fear
and of course add the progressive agenda that these types believe in
sadly the majority are becoming pathetic puppets !
http://images.politico.com/global/2013/12/18/131218_lowry_pajamaboy.jpg
Nah, ninja. ^^^^That's what this country has become.
The title suggests you were trying to start a humor thread!
I think that the USA has always been a Warrior Culture, that is how we won the continent. And I say Thank God for it. If we are ever invaded it will be bad, for them.
That's an interesting question. Here's my random thoughts on the matter.
I think that a true warrior culture, such as the Maori, Mongols, and Spartans are very rare nowadays. That's because an actual need for such a culture has pretty much disappeared. Speaking from the perspective of cultural and technological evolution, a warrior culture tends to stagnate or die out. In American and other modern culture, there is more emphasis on the other aspects of warrior mindset, such as dedication and persistence, not so much the willingness to fight anymore.
I also believe that warrior cultures tend to die out fairly quickly; I would argue that a more accurate description would be that every modern culture raises a warrior generation if necessary instead. Humans by nature are violent, so one could also argue that every culture is already technically a warrior culture. We just find ways to amuse ourselves until fighting starts, such as football.
We have warriors in America, but America as a whole is not a warrior culture. Unfortunately many Americans let mass media tell them what their culture is supposed to be.
and look sadly how often the other side treats those warriors that protect the rights we have etc...
We have warriors in America, but America as a whole is not a warrior culture. Unfortunately many Americans let mass media tell them what their culture is supposed to be.
Certainly not, but the concept of a the US as a "warrior culture" is a just a jab at American Exceptionalism. The US was never really a "warrior culture" like what was propagandized in pre-WWII Japan; or historically like the Mongols; or in Western terms like the Vikings, Spartans, or Etruscans. What we 'were' was much tougher, self disciplined, and self reliant - and proud of being self reliant with the steadfast belief that America is exceptional.
Pre 20th century, rugged individualism was prized. It got the US to expand from ocean to ocean, fed the innovation that created wealth with the industrial revolution, and led to freedom and prosperity. The shift intellectually from the Protestant Work Ethic to Karl Marx by the labor movement and academia in the 1910s-20s, the "New Deal" of the 1930s, collectivism as a unifying force to support war production in the 1940s, then the prominence of it as part of the public school indoctrination of baby boomers starting in the 1950s has led to the 11th place trophy society of today. Rather than acknowledge that in human history that there has never been a society that allows for such freedom and mobility as we have here, we now must feel compelled to have to apologize for it.
As a whole, we have forgotten our history and what makes America exceptional. Current history taught in schools has been revised to show how "bad" our ancestors are and how the US is responsible for all that ails the modern world. While very few people actually have any understanding of history at all, much less of why America is exceptional compared to any other society in the history of the world; the expression of American Exceptionalism as "warrior culture" is designed to undermine the nature of what makes this country exceptional. Conquest by the glorification and commonality of violence ("male-ness"), enslaving women and minorities, genocide, etc. are all the hallmarks of this criticism of America as a "warrior culture". All of these grievances with American history are all common things that were perpetrated by other cultures at the same point in history (most other cultures were much worse), yet only America is indicted again and again by those who want to push the agenda to get "America off its high horse". This "warrior culture" claim isn't new and is all part of the same lie - where the words are chosen very carefully for that one to emote a very specific reaction.
The direction that we are going is to become more like European countries with weakness inherent due to agenda of dependence, entitlement, and wealth redistribution. European countries have not prized self reliance in their modern forms at any time since state centered monarchy (feudalism as collectivism - divine right to rule by monarchs) has just been replaced with social democracy (Marxist collectivism - dictatorship by the proletariat) where the rights and property of the individual are granted at the will of the state. They are basically the same system but with new management. Rather than rewarding those who achieve, the European system punishes them to provide for someone who choses not to. The few points where countries have, through nationalism, attempted to push themselves to prominence have always been centered on the who they (or their ancestors) were or came from, not what they can do. European nationalism is a bankrupt philosophy and is not the on the same intellectual plane as American Exceptionalism.
Unfortunately, many see the guarantee of the "pursuit of happiness" as some state guarantee of comfort or convenience with free televisions, phones, food, clothing, and shelter without any responsibility to work. What we are guaranteed is the "pursuit", not the outcome.
Outlander Systems
05-18-15, 16:26
We are DEFINITELY a "Social Justice Warrior" society.
http://nichegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/social-justice-warrior-doll-09-14-14-1.png
I think that the USA has always been a Warrior Culture, that is how we won the continent. And I say Thank God for it. If we are ever invaded it will be bad, for them.
I think we are more of a "can sometimes get our shit together" country.
Very few kids in the US are raised to be fighters, especially when compared to other warrior cultures. Take the US and Japan in the early 20th century.
Every member of the Japanese military was taught two things from childhood. First that the greatest thing they can accomplish is to sacrifice themselves for the Emperor and the second thing they were taught were all the skills that would be useful for that endevour.
In contrast, with the exception of some "dead end kids", few in this country grew up learning to fight. Indeed based upon our culture the Japanese considered us "weak playboys who were fascinated by gangsters." During the depression, we learned to "get by" but that really didn't leave time for learning to be a warrior.
But we took on two very militaristic cultures, and despite having one of the smallest armies at the time (334,473 in 1939 and 458,365 in 1940), we were able to organize and by the end of 1941 we had 1,801,101 serving in the military. 38.8% (6,332,000) of U.S. servicemen and all servicewomen were volunteers.
http://www.nationalww2museum.org/learn/education/for-students/ww2-history/ww2-by-the-numbers/us-military.html
Most of those had to be trained to fight. A lot of the methods were new. Rangers, Airborne, carrier warfare and tank tactics were all new skills. We might have had a "shooting culture" but that's about it.
interfan - your thoughts in that post were well-organized and clearly stated.
Do you have any further thoughts on this? collectivism as a unifying force to support war production in the 1940s, then the prominence of it as part of the public school indoctrination of baby boomers starting in the 1950s has led to the 11th place trophy society of today.
I am a gung ho kind of guy, we all pull together we can get things done, and to me the WWII experience (the history I learned) typifies this belief system.
The rugged individualism was important in the early exploration of the nation, but as we moved westward it was in groups. The common belief is that each person was expected to do their share, so there was individualism in that aspect, as well as individualism in homesteading in an area where your nearest neighbor was at least a mile or so away.
I feel that what is absent from our society today is not so much rugged individualism, but altruistic action from those that could afford to act out of altruistism, the most American question is 'what's in it for me?'
What I would like to live in is a society where all that are willing to try can thrive and live better than those that don't at least try. I don't equate all labor as being equal, but I do believe that all labor is good, and should be adequately rewarded, with those that actually risk and create reap greater reward.
Unfortunately, such a society needs accountability, both up and down the social ladder, something we have lost.
interfan - your thoughts in that post were well-organized and clearly stated. Thanks.
Do you have any further thoughts on this? collectivism as a unifying force to support war production in the 1940s, then the prominence of it as part of the public school indoctrination of baby boomers starting in the 1950s has led to the 11th place trophy society of today. Like World War 1, the US economy of WW2 was a completely planned economy. The government controlled what it could control, confiscated what it couldn't buy at a price it fixed, and had total control over wages, work hours, etc. There is a nice article by Murray Rothbard on WW1 as the tipping point down the wrong path here: http://archive.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard91.html
I am a gung ho kind of guy, we all pull together we can get things done, and to me the WWII experience (the history I learned) typifies this belief system. While the romantic notion of everyone getting together to help defeat fascism in Europe is something that is nice to hear about, the political reality was a planned economy and total control by the state. Unfortunately the flip side of the mass mobilization during WW2 after the experience of the New Deal is that people started to see the government as the source for solutions to everything and government intervention became the new "norm". The idea that the government can take citizens, band them together, train, feed, clothe, and care for them after war (GI Bill, health care, etc.) shifted from those that deserved the care (the veterans who had the nobility to fight) to encompass those who don't care about doing anything to better their own circumstances. This only took less a little more than 20 years. Johnson's "War on Poverty" was named a "war" to evoke the mass mobilization and patriotic implications to the WW2 generation of voters and shift focus from war in Vietnam to a "war" to do "good". Anytime our nation is at war, the Federal government grows in size and power. People are less likely to complain since they see fighting a "war" as a just cause for more power (as long as the press is behind it). In less than 60 years, the federal government shifted from a very limited organism in the early 20th century to a colossus.
The rugged individualism was important in the early exploration of the nation, but as we moved westward it was in groups. The common belief is that each person was expected to do their share, so there was individualism in that aspect, as well as individualism in homesteading in an area where your nearest neighbor was at least a mile or so away. . Yes, that is true, but the group was comprised of strong individuals with a common goal. As society grew more urban and the role of government increased, there was no common goals, common defense, or at this point, common sense.
I feel that what is absent from our society today is not so much rugged individualism, but altruistic action from those that could afford to act out of altruistism, the most American question is 'what's in it for me?' Today, individual charity and altruism is discouraged in favor of mass programs done by corrupt government. If you take most folks, they are basically kind and would help someone in need. When you institutionalize "help" and make it a political power base you have sunk charity. Churches, private charities, and charitable individuals cannot compete with government, and those that try find themselves in a difficult position.
What I would like to live in is a society where all that are willing to try can thrive and live better than those that don't at least try. I don't equate all labor as being equal, but I do believe that all labor is good, and should be adequately rewarded, with those that actually risk and create reap greater reward.
Unfortunately, such a society needs accountability, both up and down the social ladder, something we have lost. You can still live in that society, but unless you're Amish it doesn't extend past your front door now. We can all practice kindness, charity, merit based rewards, and altruism but we can't necessarily do it outside of the home or family. The values that we instill in our kids are what society will look like in the future. Unfortunately it is a game of numbers today and we don't have them.
The US has a strong warrior culture, but it's become a marginalized segment of the population. There has always been a small fraction of the population that ends up as the warrior caste, but how they're viewed by the rest of society, how resources are apportioned by that society, and what roles are given to the old wise warriors that have seen many battles defines what becomes of that society - which has been true since hunting and gathering days, but we've reached a point of mechanization where urbanites can firewall themselves sufficiently from the realities of production, risk, and violence so much so that they're unable to comprehend what the human struggle truly consists of, and wind up as scared, hypersensitive, and frankly mental developmentally stunted individuals with no motivation to understand the inevitabilities of their beliefs, and who feel entitled to provide their opinion unsolicited because in that protective bubble, no ideas are bad ideas.
[ETA] The implementation of compulsory public education as a vessel for statist nonsense is really more of a limpet being attached to the side of a disused boat - that kind of mindless indoctrination only works AFTER driving wedges between the family unit's integrity, the church and other altruistic nonprofits, and between the truly productive and those who are wards of the state. None of that crap flies when reality looms large, but in a system ostensibly designed to maximize the number of entrants who then proceed to spend 17+ years in a nonstop pipeline of education, once that contact with reality slips away there is no buffer to keep that education relevant... what's even funnier to me is that the average college graduate of my generation is comparatively ignorant, unskilled, and incapable of performing work that is ostensibly 'too easy' and 'beneath their intellect'. Just amuses me that my RadBn unit of high school dropouts and college washouts could wipe the floor on a college knowledge bowl with randomly selected representatives from all but the top 20 schools in the country.
I would say NO.
Even in the Military most of the people don't even have the Warrior Mindset. Hell, most are just going through the passes. There are exceptions but not as many as you would think.
I agree with this, I think that as a Marine I have a little different mindset, I was raised military and lived a good portion of my life in North Dakota and Eastern Washington, here the Souix and Comanche indians and the left an indelible mark on the landscape and the people who lived there. The warrior culture was tied in with what it meant to be a man and how you carried yourself. This shaped me before entering the military, as someone attached to the airwing, there were a good number of Marines that were the scamming shit bags whom the title meant they could get laid a little easier, others were much more focused on the warrior culture, impressively so, this left them little time for family and friends. When I got out in 2012 all I could see were the Best of the Best and the Worst of the Worst staying in.
I think that we have a subculture of people who understand that sheep-dog (hate that saying but for all intensive purposes) mentality, is a way of life but to be a warrior means that you battle through and keep climbing on that horse even after the 10th time you've fallen off, and that you call bullshit out when you see it. Integrity maybe. America hasn't had that in a long time, and I don't see it coming back around the bend either, but I know a lot of members here in their mid to late-20's ( I consider myself one of them) that are not laying down to the status quote and that makes me very happy when I think about it.
The direction that we are going is to become more like European countries with weakness inherent due to agenda of dependence, entitlement, and wealth redistribution. European countries have not prized self reliance in their modern forms at any time since state centered monarchy (feudalism as collectivism - divine right to rule by monarchs) has just been replaced with social democracy (Marxist collectivism - dictatorship by the proletariat) where the rights and property of the individual are granted at the will of the state. They are basically the same system but with new management. Rather than rewarding those who achieve, the European system punishes them to provide for someone who choses not to. The few points where countries have, through nationalism, attempted to push themselves to prominence have always been centered on the who they (or their ancestors) were or came from, not what they can do. European nationalism is a bankrupt philosophy and is not the on the same intellectual plane as American Exceptionalism.
Unfortunately, many see the guarantee of the "pursuit of happiness" as some state guarantee of comfort or convenience with free televisions, phones, food, clothing, and shelter without any responsibility to work. What we are guaranteed is the "pursuit", not the outcome.
I stood up and applaud this one.
BoringGuy45
05-18-15, 23:35
America has never been a warrior culture, and for that we should all be glad. From where I'm sitting a warrior culture is one where:
-War is seen as more desirable than peace
-Every man is a soldier and ONLY a soldier; all other duties of society are carried out by slaves and women
-The waging of war is as important, if not more important, than winning the war. In many cases, war is the end rather than the means to an end.
-The society is perpetually mobilized for war at all times
-Dying in battle is seen as the highest honor, and other deaths are seen as disgraceful. While many cultures honor those willing to die for their country, warrior cultures believe soldiers should seek death in battle
-The spoils and results of war as seen as materials that will allow further wars to be waged
-Brutality and heartless killing are seen as admirable traits in a warrior
These are nothing of what America has EVER been. Some would argue that at America's founding, every able-bodied man was also a militiaman. However, as stated above, the militias did not seek death, nor did they go to war for the sake of war. For America, war has always been, as Carl von Clausewitz put it, a continuation of policy by other means. We have usually sought to avoid war when possible. Also, while our soldiers are willing to give their lives for their country, it's not part of any military or paramilitary culture that I'm aware of that one should seek to die in battle. It's always been the Patton policy: Don't die for your country, make the other poor bastard die for his. So, compared to, say, the Spartan, the Mongols, the Vikings, or the Huns, even our warriors don't have a "warrior culture" per say, as much as they have a service culture.
What America's problem is today is that too many are unwilling to use violence when it is the only option. More people today have no nerve as compared to prior generations.
This is something I've been thinking for a while. I'm a bit torn to be honest. To be clear, I'm talking about American society as a whole, for what it's worth. It's without doubt that America has a warrior subculture... we're all part of it. The question is more... can America itself be considered a warrior culture. And yes, it's more difficult because 99%+ of the population immigrated at some point.
Look at a wide spectrum of warrior cultures, like the Sengoku-era Japanese, the Maori, the Mongols, the late Republic and early Roman Empire, the Spartans, the Apache, and the Vikings. From honorable single combat to professional conscripted soldiers, from hunters-turned-conquerors to fearless raiders just trying to get by. There's a huge variety of what any person could consider a warrior culture. But is America such a culture?
Can you define a warrior culture by the percentage that participates in war? Japan may be disqualified if that's the case.
Perhaps the percentage of time that the society spends in warfare versus in peace? But if that were the case, a great many nations, societies, and cultures would qualify that normally one would not think of as a warrior culture.
Maybe discipline? Discipline takes many forms and is worth talking about... although America has pretty much everything but discipline.
Maybe a willingness to die in combat? Is that for the entire population or just the warriors?Have we ever had it? Other than the South in the "War of Northern Aggression" and the Nation after Pearl Harbor there has always been a strong anti-war voice in America.
SeriousStudent
05-19-15, 21:45
Sadly, no. As noted above, subcultures. Maybe even subcultures within subcultures.
This is a good read: http://www.amazon.com/Stoic-Warriors-Ancient-Philosophy-Military/dp/019531591X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1431967953&sr=8-1&keywords=stoic+warriors
That's a good book, I have it in my library.
And Marcus Aurelius should be required reading in school.
That's a good book, I have it in my library.
And Marcus Aurelius should be required reading in school.
Great book, and this will never be taught in schools. “Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.” Marcus Aurelius, Meditations.
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