View Full Version : Brazil gunfight in garage. Video. Lessons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S7SPrb6oj4
Hey guys. This video has been going around today. I shared it on Facebook with some lessons posted with it. Let me know what you think and obviously good discussion would be great. Im trying to become an instructor for my department and am open to any criticism.
"I have seen this video floating around Facebook today and decided I should share it with my friends. Many of my friends dont really need the lessons Im going to go over in this video but many definitely do.
Okay so the video from Brazil shows three bad guys attempting to rob/kill/whatever an off duty policeman and his wife in his garage. They enter and stage two at the exit while the third goes to open the driver door. The driver fires several shots (my best count is five?) at the suspect who returns fire. The main suspect then runs out the door. The officer fires two rounds at each of the other two fleeing suspects.
Lesson 1. Bullets, especially handgun rounds, dont work in real life like they do in the movies. People generally dont fall down and die right away from being shot. Unless you sever the upper spine or destroy the inner parts of the brain a bad guy will still be conscious until he passes out from blood loss. Complete and instant destruction of the heart still leaves enough blood in the brain for conscious activity for at least 30 seconds. In this video the first suspect was shot 3 times in the chest and died later down the road. the second suspect was hit once in the back and treated at the hospital. The third suspect was not hit. Note that these three bad guys left under their own power. A more determined (or drugged up) attacker might not decide to quit so fast. Read http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf for more information regarding terminal ballistics.
Lesson 2. Magazine capacity and reloads. My best counting shows 9 rounds fired by the officer. The first suspect was hit 3 times so we could possibly drop it down to 7 rounds total. If you are running a single stack handgun or revolver you are either out of ammo or on your last round. Think about that. This guy shot 7-9 rounds and all three bad guys are still up and mobile. Hell one of them isnt even injured. If you have a low capacity gun and no reload you are in for a bad time if these guys dont run away. This is also a good demonstration for the people who think you dont need more than 10 rounds. This guy used almost 10 rounds and still had 3 possible threats present. This gunfight ended at 9 rounds because the bad guys decided it ended then, not because the good guy MADE it end then.
Lesson 3. Training/practice. This fight was a very fast, close quarters gunfight that started in a vehicle. Have you ever tried to draw your handgun while seated in your vehicle? With your seatbelt on? Have you ever tried to maneuver your handgun to the door side from your right side? If not... go over the steering wheel as not to get caught up on it. These types of real world type scenarious need to be practiced. I think a good rubber gun or airsoft replica is a great training tool for this kind of training. Gunfights usually dont happen at the range. Also you notice he shoots a lot one handed. If you dont practice that, do it. Get training!
Lesson 4. Situational awareness. This is what really saved this guys life. I counted 7 seconds from when the suspects first grab the door to the first bad guy opening the car door. If you dont know the fight is on until after you're hit the odds are severely stacked against you.
Lesson 5. Violence of action. This is an ambush. The Army teaches that the effective way to combat an ambush is attack! It works. Ive done it. Sitting around and thinking and planning does nothing but make a bad situation worse. Watch the video. The first suspect is surprised by the attack from the officer. It takes an average of 3/4 to 1 second for a person to complete the OODA loop. Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. The bad guy had his mind made up of what he was going to do when he opened that door. The officer's attack made the suspect completely change his plans there on the spot and caused the suspect to panic.
Stay safe out there."
My bad man. Pasted the wrong thing.
Your points sound good to me. Thanks for sharing.
I think that situational awareness and preparedness saved those two. I can't tell when the driver noticed the threat, but he was definitely ready when the bad guy opened the door and flipped the ambush around on the bad guy. It looks like the driver may have gone back to the car for a reload and/or to check on the passenger? I noticed bad guy get off at least one shot at the floor, but it looks like he may have gotten one off as soon as the driver opened fire?
BuzzinSATX
05-21-15, 06:18
C-grunt,
Good stuff here, including your comments. Thanks for posting!
Wasn't there a thread about a Policeman in Vegas being attacked and killed in his garage off duty a year or two ago?
Good reminder and lesson of being aware. It looks like an attempted hit on the Officer. Brazil ia a dangerous ****in place.
Most people do not realize how vulnerable they are when coming home or leaving their residence. I recall a homicide in the Socal area that was never solved of a judge and his wife being shot gunned in the driveway, just after pulling-in from the street.
A good reason not to be predictable, vary schedule, and be aware of those around you. Most of these types of attacks are planned and the victim is surveilled beforehand.
Another reason that I always have a gun handy in the car. I too consider a 10+ auto a minimum, except for a j-frame BUG.
Good analysis C-Grunt.
Parking lots and driveways seem to have a high percentage of attacks. Lesson 4 is so important in transition zones like getting in and out of a car where you are at a natural disadvantage.
Excellent write up!
His SA is what really saved him. I wonder if he unholsters his pistol while driving? My last two years in Saudi we concealed carried and I never left it holstered while driving. Having good SA, i.e. being paranoid, has saved my butt a few times.
I have read that many times Police Officers end up shooting single handed even though they/we all train with both hands. I've only known one Soldier that used his M9 in combat and his first, and only, two shots were single handed.
In that article about why gun nuts shoot well, he mentioned some of the good things he saw in civilian shooting competitions. I'd add that shooting a pistol single handed at close range targets is one of those good things.
That's a good point Todd. In the interview posted with the Chicago cop about shootings he recounted of many times ending up shooting his pistol with one hand.
I always make it a point to practice several magazines worth one-handed, both left and right, during a range session. I have never heard of an LE qualification that did not include at least some single-handed fire.
Ironic, that on public pistol ranges, I rarely ever see anyone firing with one hand. Most who do are or appear to be LE type individuals.
Certainly an important reminder to incorporate into one's training.
It can be difficult to find a range where drawing/shooting from vehicles is allowed.
I was able to get this training approved at my PD by using Simunition guns.
Airsoft is a good alternative. Clearing cover garment, drawing the weapon, unbuckling seatbelt, exiting vehicle can turn into a cluster under stress.
The cop in this video did a great job.
Voodoo_Man
05-21-15, 08:14
I posted about this on my blog when I first saw this video, primarily to cover situational awareness.
If he was paying attention to what was going on, he would have had bullets on the first guy through the door as the guy was going under it.
One thing I've always educated new boots I've been given is that when you arrive to your destination, pop the door open and look around, this gives you the ability to flee your death-trap vehicle and a scan of the surrounding area. Trust your gut instinct, if you see a quick movement or something of that sort, look at it.
I posted about this on my blog when I first saw this video, primarily to cover situational awareness.
If he was paying attention to what was going on, he would have had bullets on the first guy through the door as the guy was going under it.
One thing I've always educated new boots I've been given is that when you arrive to your destination, pop the door open and look around, this gives you the ability to flee your death-trap vehicle and a scan of the surrounding area. Trust your gut instinct, if you see a quick movement or something of that sort, look at it.
I don't know if we can judge that his SA wasn't perfect, he might have taken a moment to prepare his wife; and we don't know what concealment was outside the garage. In my experience you need to know pattern of life to get close to perfect SA. In southwest Saudi Arabia I recently had an incident, and because they parked where I had never seen two cars park before I was able to extract myself from the situation before they trapped me, we'll never know if it was a rehearsal or the real deal because of my SA.
great tips :) and scary vid for sure
Voodoo_Man
05-21-15, 10:32
I don't know if we can judge that his SA wasn't perfect, he might have taken a moment to prepare his wife; and we don't know what concealment was outside the garage. In my experience you need to know pattern of life to get close to perfect SA. In southwest Saudi Arabia I recently had an incident, and because they parked where I had never seen two cars park before I was able to extract myself from the situation before they trapped me, we'll never know if it was a rehearsal or the real deal because of my SA.
"You have to affect the situation before it effects you."
The guy was at his door, if he wanted to kill him instead of rob him he would have already done so.
Judging intent by someone's inaction of violence is not always the best option - the GB entered his garage while it was closing, that's all the intent that was required.
His SA is what really saved him. I wonder if he unholsters his pistol while driving? My last two years in Saudi we concealed carried and I never left it holstered while driving. Having good SA, i.e. being paranoid, has saved my butt a few times.
I have read that many times Police Officers end up shooting single handed even though they/we all train with both hands. I've only known one Soldier that used his M9 in combat and his first, and only, two shots were single handed.
In that article about why gun nuts shoot well, he mentioned some of the good things he saw in civilian shooting competitions. I'd add that shooting a pistol single handed at close range targets is one of those good things.
I don't know if driving with an unholstered handgun is the the best advice, i.e. unholstered handguns were displaced before and during the infamous Miami/FBI shooting. Perhaps a dedicated crossdraw holster is a better option if vehicle ambush is a priority concern of the handgun carrier in his particular case. YMMV
Also, the much quoted "gunfights last only 2-3 shots" is also a myth. Annual NYPD SOP-9 (Analysis report of NYPD officer involved shootings) may show a total average of 2-3 shots, but included in the report are NYPD suicides, which more often than not involves a single shot, needless to say. IIRC, it also reports ND's, which also tend to be a single-shot affairs. This skews the "incident" shot average.
I also believe, multiple assailants are more prevalent than in years/decades past.
Carry an adequate handgun and it's related support systems. YMMV
I don't know if driving with an unholstered handgun is the the best advice, i.e. unholstered handguns were displaced before and during the infamous Miami/FBI shooting. Perhaps a dedicated crossdraw holster is a better option if vehicle ambush is a priority concern of the handgun carrier in his particular case. YMMV
Also, the much quoted "gunfights last only 2-3 shots" is also a myth. Annual NYPD SOP-9 (Analysis report of NYPD officer involved shootings) may show a total average of 2-3 shots, but included in the report are NYPD suicides, which more often than not involves a single shot, needless to say. IIRC, it also reports ND's, which also tend to be a single-shot affairs. This skews the "incident" shot average.
I also believe, multiple assailants are more prevalent than in years/decades past.
Carry an adequate handgun and it's related support systems. YMMV
I shouldn't have used the word unholstered, I had my holster firmly lodged between seat and console.
Eurodriver
05-21-15, 11:09
If he was paying attention to what was going on, he would have had bullets on the first guy through the door as the guy was going under it.
True. And if he was real warrior, he would have had a buddy providing overwatch in the alleyway so they never wouldn't gotten inside in the first place. :rolleyes:
They were quick. It was night. The attacker was low to the ground. Good guy's tinted windows were rolled up. He was seated, and probably belted, in a car. How do you expect anyone to react faster than that to something totally unexpected as they come home from a nice dinner or seeing their kids dance recital? The guy was on point and was paying more than enough attention given the outcome.
Voodoo_Man
05-21-15, 11:23
True. And if he was real warrior, he would have had a buddy providing overwatch in the alleyway so they never wouldn't gotten inside in the first place. :rolleyes:
They were quick. It was night. The attacker was low to the ground. Good guy's tinted windows were rolled up. He was seated, and probably belted, in a car. How do you expect anyone to react faster than that to something totally unexpected as they come home from a nice dinner or seeing their kids dance recital? The guy was on point and was paying more than enough attention given the outcome.
You can make jokes and laugh about it all you want.
He's alive because they weren't trying to kill him. If they were he'd have been dead.
You can make jokes and laugh about it all you want.
He's alive because they weren't trying to kill him. If they were he'd have been dead.
If someone is intent on killing you, it is very difficult to defend yourself. Even the President's defense gets penetrated.
You can make jokes and laugh about it all you want.
He's alive because they weren't trying to kill him. If they were he'd have been dead.
So what do you do when you go home?
Stop the car a few blocks away from your house, and do a CTR and area/route recon of your neighborhood to identify possible threats?
I think he reacted appropriately for the situation. If they had hosed down the car from the garage door, no SA would have mattered.
It could be that he saw the dude approach his car, in the side mirror, and was able to draw and get ready for the threat to appear.
He could quite possibly have been slower if he tried to get out first -> alerting bad guys that he was aware.
I posted about this on my blog when I first saw this video, primarily to cover situational awareness.
If he was paying attention to what was going on, he would have had bullets on the first guy through the door as the guy was going under it.
One thing I've always educated new boots I've been given is that when you arrive to your destination, pop the door open and look around, this gives you the ability to flee your death-trap vehicle and a scan of the surrounding area. Trust your gut instinct, if you see a quick movement or something of that sort, look at it.
For all we know he saw them come under the door and it took 7 seconds for him to pull from his ultra conceal "super tuck" holster.
Averageman
05-21-15, 14:09
His SA is what really saved him. I wonder if he unholsters his pistol while driving? My last two years in Saudi we concealed carried and I never left it holstered while driving. Having good SA, i.e. being paranoid, has saved my butt a few times.
I agree, My pistol is my last resort while driving, but driving is my main concern.
It would seem that the transitional area's ( Stop Lights, a garage, toll booth, even a security check point) all leave you vulnerable to not having the option to move your vehicle.
I would recommend a second holster within the vehicle that allows you to draw and fire on such occasions. Perhaps even a second higher capacity Magazine would be prudent. In high threat area's it might be even better if a is a SBR or SBS was available to the passenger.
Much of this depends upon your options to secure the weapon while driving in bad conditions. Any weapon that has hit the floor and is not available to put in to action is useless.
In most situations a bit of imagination, some velcro, hot glue and practice would be very good investment.
I posted about this on my blog when I first saw this video, primarily to cover situational awareness.
If he was paying attention to what was going on, he would have had bullets on the first guy through the door as the guy was going under it.
One thing I've always educated new boots I've been given is that when you arrive to your destination, pop the door open and look around, this gives you the ability to flee your death-trap vehicle and a scan of the surrounding area. Trust your gut instinct, if you see a quick movement or something of that sort, look at it.
If the first guy through the door was intent on killing the driver he would have started firing as soon as he came up from under the garage door firing through the back window of the vehicle. I don't think he would have walked up to the vehicle and opened up the door first. During that 7 second period the driver could have been unbuckling his seat belt and preparing his wife for what was going to happen. As soon as the BG opened up the door the driver came out firing. As what was said earlier the best way to defeat an ambush is to attack it. He did just that. He may have been able to act faster but who knows. His SA was acute enough for him to realize what was going to go down and react properly.
I think it is fairly unreasonable to expect people to be so switched on all the time that they live up to expectations some have in this thread. The guy wasn't on a VIP protection team, or a security detail in a foreign country, he was parking his ****ing car in his garage. I would offer an extreme eye roll to anyone who claims to be on high alert 24/7.
I decided to look at the vid again.
Some notable points:
0:10 - first perp visible by garage door
0:12 - the passenger door starts to open. At that time, 2 perps are visible trying to hold the garage door up.
0:13 - first perp enters and approaches driver's side
0:14 - you see movement in the car, the driver is taking some sort of action (my guess is that they were alerted to something at this time, and he draws his gun). First perp has still not reached car
0:16 - First perp opens door, and get's the bad news. Third perp is moving quickly towards passenger side. First perp gets one round off
0:21 - fight is over, and perps have fled the scene. He continues to stay in the fight after they have fled
So, I think he reacted pretty quickly and determined, based on the video.
It is hard to tell how easy it was for them to see, as the footage says nothing about lighting conditions for the occupants in the vehicle.
He was seated, and probably belted, in a car.
A cop buddy of mine doesn't wear his seatbelt for about 100 yards before his destination, on a call, coming home, etc. and does the same thing when leaving. This is on and off duty. Not a bad habit to get into, especially in parking lots.
dwhitehorne
05-21-15, 17:27
We can analize this to death, but this guy did the right thing at the right time. No hesitation and he brought the fight to the suspects with a violent counter attack. It worked out well for him and it definately reinforces the fact that handguns rarely stop the threat immediately. I hope he and his wifes hearing recovers quickly. I'm sure she was ready to move as soon as they got back in the house. I know my wife would. David
I think it is fairly unreasonable to expect people to be so switched on all the time that they live up to expectations some have in this thread. The guy wasn't on a VIP protection team, or a security detail in a foreign country, he was parking his ****ing car in his garage. I would offer an extreme eye roll to anyone who claims to be on high alert 24/7.
Not to mention, you can't keep that up forever. I lived in a very high crime area when I was younger. I was always "up" I was always "expecting things." Even if you actually do it, it wears you out and you become less effective.
If somebody is intent upon pulling a "ninja" you will have little or no warning. If the three guys were intent upon taking the driver out they would have done it from positions of concealment as he was entering the garage. He'd have never seen it coming and there would be little he could do about it.
If I wanted to kill somebody as they entered their garage I can think of about two dozen simple ways to do that without any real effort. The only way to really prevent that from happening is to have on sight security and a controlled perimeter.
Most people I know, including those who are in law enforcement or current / former military probably wouldn't have done as well as this guy. When you pull in your own garage you are typically thinking about bills that need to be paid, reports that are due and things like that.
If you are lucky enough to actually see guys come under your garage door (not something you typically watch for unless you are in a very high crime area or saw them loitering on or near your property) most people spend at least 7 seconds thinking "what the hell are these guys who think they can just walk into my garage?" People take a lot of time to switch gears to "I think I'm going to be attacked" and not everyone is experienced enough to immediately look for weapons, most people look at faces in an effort to identify individuals and figure out who they are and why they are here.
Given all that that, this guy did fine. Could have probably done a few things better, but that is probably the one single constant in EVERY gun fight. A lot of people would not have done this as well. Real life rarely looks like the scene from Collateral.
The only thing I would even attempt to offer is the value of the Mozambique. It can be hard to come off of "center mass", especially when you have two more bad guys only a few feet away. But given the guy who took three to the chest was still "good enough" to haul ass he could have just as easily returned effective fire. The only reason he didn't (I'm assuming) is because he became a defender of his own life and was more concerned with escaping and survival than robbery or whatever the original motive was.
I'd rather take my chances getting a head shot on shooter one when he didn't go down than transitioning to the next threat. But that is very much Monday Morning QB. No matter what you do right, that situation could have gone bad a couple different ways. Changing the scenario to going to the wife first would have dramatically altered possible response options.
That isn't right. Couldn't the man just shoot the pistol out of the perps hand? Shoot the kid in the foot?
That young man shouldn't have to die because he needed the guys car. It isn't his fault.
/snark off
I hope he and his wifes hearing recovers quickly. I'm sure she was ready to move as soon as they got back in the house. I know my wife would. David
My wife would be kicking my ass for lazering her when I returned to the car.
My wife would be kicking my ass for lazering her when I returned to the car.
Yeah, I saw that too. Wasn't gonna nit pick. He probably was just making sure she was ok. Thankfully no NDs occurred.
Yeah, I saw that too. Wasn't gonna nit pick. He probably was just making sure she was ok. Thankfully no NDs occurred.
Yeah, I forgot the smiley.
Averageman
05-21-15, 20:17
It is pretty easy and perhaps a good idea if you are in the mix to buy a cheap but good holster and modify it with some hot glue and velcro and secure it within the vehicle in a manner in which it wont be dislodged upon impact and is readily available if everything goes wrong.
I have a couple of these in my daily driver, not because I think I'm going to get car jacked, but because most of humanity kinda sucks.
black22rifle
05-21-15, 20:46
Appendix carry shines when it comes to driving.
Averageman
05-21-15, 20:57
Appendix carry shines when it comes to driving.
Not as much as a second secured holster.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-21-15, 21:06
1. Get a faster garage door. ;)
2. If the BGs had shot guns, this wouldn't have gone down was well.
3. I don't think it was a hit on him, I think they went in there to intimidate and scare him and his wife. You don't open the car door to kill him, you open it to stick a gun in his face and scare him. I'm not saying that they weren't in danger, just that I don't think this was a hit. Blow out the window and hose down the inside if you are looking to kill him.
4. Did the BG get one shot off after being shot twice? I thought I see a flash and the round would have gone into the floor.
My wife laughs at me that when we are leaving somewhere, I open my door, stand on the running board and don't enter the car until everyone is in the car with the doors closed.
Averageman
05-21-15, 21:13
[QUOTE=FromMyColdDeadHand;2127395]1. Get a faster garage door. ;)
2. If the BGs had shot guns, this wouldn't have gone down was well.
/QUOTE]
I would have to agree with the above.
My garage door will allow you in and however blink the light as you break the beam.
Had these guys been intent on murder, shot guns or firebombs would have been used.
SilverBullet432
05-21-15, 21:34
SA is king.
No situation is handled perfectly. Any situation where the good guy & his wife walk away with ringing ears being the worst signs of a struggle for their life was the proper way of handling. The rest is fluff.
For those talking about transferring your concealment piece from your person to your car & then back... why? I can think of a dozen reasons why this is a bad idea right off the top of my head.
Had our hero made that his habit in this video he likely wouldn't have even noticed the guy coming in the garage door. He would've been to busy doing his routine if transferring the gun back to his person.
What happens if a situation occurs that requires a rapid exit of your vehicle but you don't grab your carry weapon due to lack of time or not thinking you need it prior to exiting. Now you need it and don't have it. Now what?
What if you're in an accident, rammed or become otherwise disoriented? If you're not in physical contact w/your carry weapon you'd be amazed how easy it is to 'lose' your firearm even though you knew right where it was seconds before. On your body you know where it is, you can still feel it there & the bulk of your muscle memory has been focused on drawing it from that area. Before you even fully process what you're seeing as a threat your hand/arm might already be reaching for it on your hip.
Personally my gun always stays on me. I know right where it is & I practice drawing from a vehicle. It's not ideal but slightly slower draws are much better than not having it at all.
black22rifle
05-21-15, 23:45
I agree. When shit hits the fan all you really have is whats on your person. The less you have to handle your firearm the better.
No situation is handled perfectly. Any situation where the good guy & his wife walk away with ringing ears being the worst signs of a struggle for their life was the proper way of handling. The rest is fluff.
For those talking about transferring your concealment piece from your person to your car & then back... why? I can think of a dozen reasons why this is a bad idea right off the top of my head.
Had our hero made that his habit in this video he likely wouldn't have even noticed the guy coming in the garage door. He would've been to busy doing his routine if transferring the gun back to his person.
What happens if a situation occurs that requires a rapid exit of your vehicle but you don't grab your carry weapon due to lack of time or not thinking you need it prior to exiting. Now you need it and don't have it. Now what?
What if you're in an accident, rammed or become otherwise disoriented? If you're not in physical contact w/your carry weapon you'd be amazed how easy it is to 'lose' your firearm even though you knew right where it was seconds before. On your body you know where it is, you can still feel it there & the bulk of your muscle memory has been focused on drawing it from that area. Before you even fully process what you're seeing as a threat your hand/arm might already be reaching for it on your hip.
Personally my gun always stays on me. I know right where it is & I practice drawing from a vehicle. It's not ideal but slightly slower draws are much better than not having it at all.
One of the "lessons learned" from the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami was that several people lost their guns when they pulled them out as they arrived "so they would be ready" but didn't expect to have to slam on their brakes unexpectedly. A few guys had to go fumbling around on the floor boards to retrieve weapons instead of returning fire.
And these are guys who were expecting trouble and coming into a situation with known killers.
Moose-Knuckle
05-22-15, 01:31
Violence of action and fire superiority wins the day. It could have been a hit, there are a lot of videos from that part of the world where the would be assassin(s) turn into amateur night. I'd surmise contracts go to the lowest bidder/some one trying to impress the upper echelon of a criminal organization.
I back into my driveway and never park in the garage, yes I scan the area and watch my mirrors to ensure no one is lying in wait around the house. G19 is either AIWB or unholstered between my weak side thigh and driver's seat. If something sets my spidey sense off then the G19 is in hand at low ready inside POV.
And no, I'm not paranoid my enemies are real.
Not as much as a second secured holster.
A second secured holster is off body. I could easily draw as quick from appendix as some secondary holster inside the car. And no matter if I'm fighting, being pulled, or affected in any other manner the gun is always in the exact same relation to my hands.
And if I need to leave the vehicle in a rapid manner for anything I don't have to draw and holster again to do so.
Eurodriver
05-22-15, 10:02
And no matter if I'm fighting, being pulled, or affected in any other manner the gun is always in the exact same relation to my hands.
This is clutch, and I learned it via the HEAT trainer. The biggest takeaway of that simulator was muscle memory. Keep everything in the same place, the same way, all the time because one day when you're upside down and you have no idea what in the **** is going on you may need to get something only to realize that what you need isn't where you put it.
FBI Shootout
One agent didn't fire a single round the entire gun battle because he lost his service revolver when ramming the suspect's vehicle
One of the "lessons learned" from the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami was that several people lost their guns when they pulled them out as they arrived "so they would be ready" but didn't expect to have to slam on their brakes unexpectedly. A few guys had to go fumbling around on the floor boards to retrieve weapons instead of returning fire.
And these are guys who were expecting trouble and coming into a situation with known killers.
I'm sorry for the sidetrack, but...In 1986 I was less empathetic than now. At the time my thought was 'lawyers/accountants playing cops.' Had I been running the FBI at the time, Gordon McNeil's head would have been on a stake outside FBI HQ.
They knew what they were chasing that day, and the extent of Platt's and Matix's criminal activity - 1 dead in the everglades - his car used in at least one of the bank robberies, 1 shot and left for dead in the everglades, they were driving his car, hundreds of rounds of brass recovered, indicating weapons practice by the perps, a string of violent robberies with an apparent geographic pattern.
They set out that day with the attitude that nothing was going to happen (listen to McNeil's narrative/statement on the FBI training video) - soft armor laying in the back seat of the FBI vehicles instead of being worn, shotguns for the most part in the backseat area, I believe Edwin Mirales was an exception, he had his up front with him IIRC. Reloads for revolvers, in most cases the standard box o' magnums in the briefcase or glovebox. The only FBI M16 out that day was with an agent who was out of his unit when the incident began, reportedly because it was too cumbersome and time consuming to get them out of the vault at the office.
The agents were for the most part .mil vets, McNeil made a statement regarding the 'sounds of class 5.56' reminding him of 'Viet Nam' and 'it was a firefight' (which was the title of the FBI training video). You may think my earlier statement of McNeil was harsh, and it is overly dramatic to emphasize his responsibility for what happened, the fact that he let those guys go out without a pre-operational check was, in FBI speak 'supervisory neglect.'
Pierce Brooks, wrote his book 'Officer Down Code Three' around 10 fatal errors officers make, one of those errors was 'tombstone courage' or overconfidence. Combat Vets of the era should have known that no contact goes as planned, that you don't get to script your gunfight. These guys went out thinking: 1) nothing is going to happen; 2) if it does these guys will roll over and play dead when we show them our FBI shields.
Technically the FBI was not outgunned that day, they had more weapons and ammunition, than Platt and Matix. They also had 3 to 1 numerical superiority. The gunfight took place within pistol range, so while the Mini-14 was more lethal, in that situation it shouldn't have been the game changer it was. IMO that day the FBI got out-tactic-ed, not out gunned.
'The final weapon is the brain, all is else is supplement.' - Steinbeck.
Steyr - please don't take this as a rant directed at you, I'm passionate about that incident because it is an example of a hardware solution to a software problem. The only good things to come of it were the FBI coming into the modern age of semi-auto pistols and wider acceptance of patrol rifles.
I'm sorry for the sidetrack, but...In 1986 I was less empathetic than now. At the time my thought was 'lawyers/accountants playing cops.' Had I been running the FBI at the time, Gordon McNeil's head would have been on a stake outside FBI HQ.
They knew what they were chasing that day, and the extent of Platt's and Matix's criminal activity - 1 dead in the everglades - his car used in at least one of the bank robberies, 1 shot and left for dead in the everglades, they were driving his car, hundreds of rounds of brass recovered, indicating weapons practice by the perps, a string of violent robberies with an apparent geographic pattern.
They set out that day with the attitude that nothing was going to happen (listen to McNeil's narrative/statement on the FBI training video) - soft armor laying in the back seat of the FBI vehicles instead of being worn, shotguns for the most part in the backseat area, I believe Edwin Mirales was an exception, he had his up front with him IIRC. Reloads for revolvers, in most cases the standard box o' magnums in the briefcase or glovebox. The only FBI M16 out that day was with an agent who was out of his unit when the incident began, reportedly because it was too cumbersome and time consuming to get them out of the vault at the office.
The agents were for the most part .mil vets, McNeil made a statement regarding the 'sounds of class 5.56' reminding him of 'Viet Nam' and 'it was a firefight' (which was the title of the FBI training video). You may think my earlier statement of McNeil was harsh, and it is overly dramatic to emphasize his responsibility for what happened, the fact that he let those guys go out without a pre-operational check was, in FBI speak 'supervisory neglect.'
Pierce Brooks, wrote his book 'Officer Down Code Three' around 10 fatal errors officers make, one of those errors was 'tombstone courage' or overconfidence. Combat Vets of the era should have known that no contact goes as planned, that you don't get to script your gunfight. These guys went out thinking: 1) nothing is going to happen; 2) if it does these guys will roll over and play dead when we show them our FBI shields.
Technically the FBI was not outgunned that day, they had more weapons and ammunition, than Platt and Matix. They also had 3 to 1 numerical superiority. The gunfight took place within pistol range, so while the Mini-14 was more lethal, in that situation it shouldn't have been the game changer it was. IMO that day the FBI got out-tactic-ed, not out gunned.
'The final weapon is the brain, all is else is supplement.' - Steinbeck.
Steyr - please don't take this as a rant directed at you, I'm passionate about that incident because it is an example of a hardware solution to a software problem. The only good things to come of it were the FBI coming into the modern age of semi-auto pistols and wider acceptance of patrol rifles.
I couldn't possibly take your comments as anything directed at me, we are actually in 100% agreement.
I also agree that despite the many "technical errors" committed by the FBI that day the true fatal flaw, as you noted was one of mindset. The FBI had become so accustomed to "compliance" that when two bad guys with bad intent took them on, they were surprised enough that it took them out of the game for a moment. Even though they should have expected exactly that kind of outcome given the known track record of the individual involved, nobody really expected it and it cost them dearly.
And yeah, it was a tough way to get an equipment and training overhaul that was long overdue.
Just for clarification, my "guys who were expecting trouble" meant they KNEW who they were after and expected to have to arrest them. The comment wasn't meant to suggest they were actually prepared for an actual fight. But I could see how it might be read in a way not intended.
I shouldn't have used the word unholstered, I had my holster firmly lodged between seat and console.
I agree, My pistol is my last resort while driving, but driving is my main concern.
It would seem that the transitional area's ( Stop Lights, a garage, toll booth, even a security check point) all leave you vulnerable to not having the option to move your vehicle.
I would recommend a second holster within the vehicle that allows you to draw and fire on such occasions. Perhaps even a second higher capacity Magazine would be prudent. In high threat area's it might be even better if a is a SBR or SBS was available to the passenger.
Much of this depends upon your options to secure the weapon while driving in bad conditions. Any weapon that has hit the floor and is not available to put in to action is useless.
In most situations a bit of imagination, some velcro, hot glue and practice would be very good investment.
I agree, see above.
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