Looking for some input on loading die selection

[elephantrider]

I am looking to streamline and improve my .223/5.56 loading process and I could use some help with selecting loading dies. Right now I have a Redding standard three die set, a Type-S match neck die set (haven't even used this set yet), a taper crimp die, and the floating carbide sizing button. I'd like to ditch using a sizing button and avoid the neck bushing complications. These rounds would be for AR15 type rifles. I thought I would run my plan past the reloading think tank here for a common sense check.

For sizing I am considering either a standard FL die with the sizing button removed and follow up with a neck expanding mandrel, or use a body die and a Lee collet neck die. I am leaning towards the std. FL die with a neck expanding mandrel as it seems a bit simpler than the Lee collet die arrangement. I assume that any one FL die is just as good as another once the sizing button is removed, save stepping up to Dillon carbide die? Any suggestions, or input?

For a seating die I am looking to step up to the Wilson stainless micrometer inline seater and an Arbor press. I've used the Redding Comp. seater in other calibers and had issues with the parts sticking and seating depth variations due to dirt in the cylinder sleeve. I am also concerned about the durability of the Redding seater if I run into a slightly compressed load. I've used a friend's Wilson seater and found it dead simple to use. Am I missing anything?

I have the Redding taper crimp die and haven't used it much, but will likely be crimping rounds more frequently in the future. Would it be worth picking up a Lee Factory crimp die? The Lee factory crimp seems like the crowd favorite among crimping dies.

[mgrs]

Yes, you will introduce another step with the neck expanding die, but there is nothing wrong with your line of thinking. Are you considering this primarily to avoid messing with bushings? It also allows you to isolate steps in your process to see where brass is stretched or runout is induced.

I load.30 caliber cast lead or flat base bullets with a lyman M die. I full length size with the expander removed, and then neck expand with an M die. It is expanding the neck on the down stroke and stretches the brass much less.

Lyman's M Die gives you the option of neck expanding only and is not expensive. I was initially concerned about runout with it, but it has actually produced ammunition with less runout than FL sizing and neck expanding in FL size dies from lee, dillon, and RCBS.

[markm]

You really don't need to go with the arbor press for the ammo if you're loading SMK type bullets. If you planned to run some VLDs or something, maybe.

I use the Arbor press for .308 and 300WM because I can seat right by my Chargemaster and be doing two processes at once.

The LEE FCD is so cheap, you can't go wrong giving it a try.

[elephantrider]

Thanks for the replies gents. mgrs, yes, I am going for pretty much what you stated in your post. I didn't know about the neck expander method until I read about it on this forum. Despite the additional step it just seems like a better way.


You really don't need to go with the arbor press for the ammo if you're loading SMK type bullets. If you planned to run some VLDs or something, maybe.

I use the Arbor press for .308 and 300WM because I can seat right by my Chargemaster and be doing two processes at once.

The LEE FCD is so cheap, you can't go wrong giving it a try.

When you say no 'need for the arbor press,' do you mean that there is no benefit to the Wilson SS Micro seater for those type of bullets? I would be loading mostly 77gr OTM type bullets. Would sticking with a standard Redding seating die make more sense? I considered doing that and upgrading the seating stem w/ the Redding micrometer upgrade if I thought I needed it later. Is there any meaningful concentricity (for general purpose AR15 OTM loads) to be gained from going with a Redding or Forster Comp. die over a plain Jane seating die?

Good point about the Lee FCD.

[pinzgauer]

If you are doing a separate FL sizing step, I'd be using a collet die for the neck. Very hard to beat even the Lee Collet die for this.

I use the Forster micrometer seating die for Grendel in the AR just due to ease of dialing in the length.

If you are worried about concentricity I'd be thinking Forster coax press. Once you use one you'll never go back to a traditional single stage

[bigedp51]

elephantrider

I'm retired with nothing to do and all day to do it.

I have two AR15 rifles and a Savage .223 bolt action so I decided to buy more type/brands of dies and see what worked best. The only dies I do not have are Redding and I bought the cheaper Forster dies.

The die that produced the least neck runout was the Forster full length die with the high mounted expander. On this die the neck of the case is still inside the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. And I have no problem getting .001 or less neck runout with the Forster dies.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Sizer_Die_011_zpst2zm6m7y.gif

The Forster die worked so well I bought Forster expander and spindle units to convert my RCBS dies for reduced neck runout.

Below on the left is the RCBS expander raised to its highest position, on the right is the Forster replacement expander unit that greatly reduced neck runout.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMG_2141_zps77852ff6.jpg

The worst die for neck runout was the Forster neck bushing and shoulder bump die. And the problem is with neck bushing dies if the neck is reduced over .005 in a single step the neck runout increases due to the floating bushings. Meaning bushing dies are for tight neck chambers and not larger factory chambers.

So try a Forster full length die, lube the inside of your necks, size in "ONE" step and load some very straight ammo.

My opinion of Lee collet dies.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/lee_zps8asygcdv.jpg

And remember you are loading for a AR15 rifle and not a custom made rifle, with a custom tight chamber.

[pinzgauer]

elephantrider
My opinion of Lee collet dies.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/lee_zps8asygcdv.jpg


Funny... I'm curious... Specific results? Or generic Lee hatred? I know of multiple accuracy oriented shooter getting very good results with Lee Collet Dies. I know I did in 7BR, and I still use them for neck sizing only in surplus and fun bolt finds just due to brass life.



And remember you are loading for a AR15 rifle and not a custom made rifle, with a custom tight chamber.

Agreed 100%, keep seeing people over focusing on bench rest techniques but using rack grade barrels in carbines

[bigedp51]

Funny... I'm curious... Specific results? Or generic Lee hatred? I know of multiple accuracy oriented shooter getting very good results with Lee Collet Dies. I know I did in 7BR, and I still use them for neck sizing only in surplus and fun bolt finds just due to brass life.



1. I full length resize everything except my .303 British rifles.
2. The quality of the Lee collet die leaves a lot to be desired.
3. I get the same or less runout with full length Forster dies.
4. I see no sense in two step resizing.


Below is a RCBS full length die with the Forster expander and spindle installed "AND" a Lee lock ring with the rubber o-ring.
The expander floats and self centers and the die floats and self centers and in my old 1973 Rockchucker press is producing resized cases with .001 or less runout.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMG_2140_zpsea657d9e.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/o-ring001_zps094cec91.jpg

Bottom line, after over 46 years of reloading I give very high marks for the Forster expander and spindle design.

[mgrs]

1. I full length resize everything except my .303 British rifles.

<snip>

Bottom line, after over 46 years of reloading I give very high marks for the Forster expander and spindle design.

Good to know! I just bought a forster set for .308.

I started with the two set sizing process (FL sizer with expander ball removed + M die) for loading .30-40 and .30-30 with cast bullets. I stayed with it because the brass was lasting much longer without needing to be trimmed as often.

I two-step size with 5.56 as well, primarily because I can't fit another die on the XL650 toolhead after the rt1200 trimmer. The rt1200 FL sizes and trims, but does not neck expand. I use a second toolhead to neck expand with a backed-out FL sizing die, powder drop, seat, and crimp.

[markm]

Yeah. Lee Collet dies are somewhat cheaply made. But the results I get are unmatched by anything else. I use a little of everything, RCBS, Redding, Forster, LE Wilson, Dillon, etc. And although the Lee dies can be a little high maintenance, they're worth the ass ache for me all day long.

[pinzgauer]

Yeah. Lee Collet dies are somewhat cheaply made. But the results I get are unmatched by anything else. I use a little of everything, RCBS, Redding, Forster, LE Wilson, Dillon, etc. And although the Lee dies can be a little high maintenance, they're worth the ass ache for me all day long.

My results as well. I do add Forster or Redding lock rings with them.


1. I full length resize everything except my .303 British rifles.

That may be the difference, I neck size only for all my bolt guns except for hunting ammo. Super long brass life in my Mauser's.

Zero case stretch, and you never over work the necks



2. The quality of the Lee collet die leaves a lot to be desired.


They are so simple there is very little to mess up. About the only thing anyone has to do with them is occasionally reduce the mandrel size to get the neck tension they want. I did have to do this on one die, out of close to 10 I've used.

No offense, but sounds a bit like typical Lee is crap stuff. I have some very high end kit, and some Lee items that I use because it works the best, even if cheap and occasionally crude.

And some starts as Lee, but is upgraded. Ex: Lee primer tool but with stainless & brass metal parts. But prime thousands of cases with the old Lee autoprime



3. get the same or less runout with full length Forster dies.


I use Forster for AR's and agree they are very good. Occasionally folks have to refine the expander ball diameter to tune neck tension with thin brass necks.



4. I see no sense in two step resizing.


For AR's I agree. Getting incredible results from Grendel with Forster dies + coax press



Bottom line, after over 46 years of reloading I give very high marks for the Forster expander and spindle design.

Agreed 100%, probably the best design if adjusted properly. I'd have to confirm, but from memory some of my Hornady die sets now use the same approach.

[bigedp51]

I do not neck size unless forced to and prefer that my cases have a little "wiggle" room in the chamber. The late Jim Hull of the Sierra ballistic testing lab and world class long range shooter said the following.

"The cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case".

This is a humourous way of saying he full length resized all his cases.

Don't take my word for full length resizing but if you can't trust someone from the Sierra test lab and someone on Team Lapua USA who's word can you trust.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/KTLapua-b_zps8d1abc2c.jpg

A full length resized cartridge does not touch the chamber walls. A full length resize case is only supported by the bolt face in the rear and by the bullet in the throat. Meaning you are reducing any effects a warped case will have in bullet alignment with the bore. And a case that does not have equal case wall thicknesses when fired will expand more on the thin side of the case and warp. Meaning a neck sized case can cause the bullet to be off center with the axis of the bore.

If you remove the expander from a full length resizing die, then resize the case and measure neck runout it will or should have zero neck runout. It is the expanders that cause most of the problems because they are locked down off center. And the Forster die centers the expander with the neck of the die.

My RCBS case mastering gauge has the ability to measure case wall thickness and its always the cases with unequal case wall thicknesses that cause most of the runout problems.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/rcbsgauge_zps9306c010.jpg

I have two neck runout gauges, and below if I can't beat the case into submission with a full length die the case is most likely warped. In the background on the left rear is my Hornady concentricity gauge that lets me bend the crooked brass for blasting ammo in my AR15 carbine. And my best brass is used in my .223 bolt action after being fully prepped.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/runout003_zpsd19b7cc3.jpg

So again after over 46 years of reloading I will say I waited far too long before buying a Forster resizing die that makes very straight ammo.

[bigedp51]

pinzgauer

Having good quality brass like Lapua is the key to good accuracy.

"BUT" I was given three five gallon buckets of once fired .223/5.56 brass fired by our local police departments. The ammunition was cheaper grade practice ammunition and some of the cases were seconds or lower grade cases not fit for the term "Higher grade ammunition". The brass consisted of Remington, Federal and Lake City and the Lake City was the best for quality. The remington brass had the worst case wall thickness variations I have ever seen. And the Federal cases had the softest brass and suffered the highest failure rate foe oversized primer pockets.

So when I say Forster full length dies being Number one, it is their ability to take these cases fired is so many different AR15 rifles of brass of questionable quality and turn them into "straight brass". And my bolt gun gets the best brass and MY AR15 rifles that throw perfectly good brass away, chew up the rims and dent the cases have to settle for something less than Lapua brass.

In fact in my opinion anyone who shoots Lapua brass out of any semiautomatic rifle needs his head examined. But I'm so cheap when I fart it sounds like a silent dog whistle.
(for you slow types thats a real tight ass when it comes to spending) :D