UPDATE 6/25! SEE LAST POST!! 9 mm Bullet Seating Problem

[Sparky5019]

I'm wondering if this is a case problem, a bullet problem or a seating die problem...

I'm loading on a Dillon Super 1050 and using a Dillon Seating die. Bullets are Black Bullet International 125 grain cones.

Apparently, the bullet seated off center in the case causing a bulged case that catastrophically would not chamber and locked up the gun (G17).

Experience or thoughts? Would a Redding competition seating die fix it?

Thanks in advance!

[markm]

Is this a one round fluke or a repeating problem?

[Sparky5019]

I've had several. I'd say 3-4/350 rounds loaded.

[IraqVet1982]

Make sure you're using the right seating stem.

http://m.dillonprecision.com/mcontent/p/9/pid/24469/catid/4/Dillon_Seating_Dies

[Sparky5019]

Make sure you're using the right seating stem.

http://m.dillonprecision.com/mcontent/p/9/pid/24469/catid/4/Dillon_Seating_Dies

Duh. I've been loading for 30 years...that's not the problem.

[williejc]

I looked at your bullet on Black Bullet's web site and then consulted Dillon's web site and saw that they offer two seating stems--one for round nose and one for semi-wadcutter bullets. It may be that neither stem is a good fit. Ideally, the seating stem would precisely fit the bullet nose. In your case, if it does not, then the stem could be the problem.

Since your bullet is swaged lead with a .356 diameter, your expander is not ideal if it was designed for .355 jacketed bullets--which it likely was. If so, the problem is that during seating, lead is being scraped off the bullet's side and accumulating between the bullet and seating stem body.

The fix is using fmj bullets or having a custom powder through expander made for the .356 swaged bullets. Part of the fix is having a seating stem made that fits precisely your bullet's nose. My guess is that the guys selling this bullet have heard this problem before. A custom powder through expander funnel would have Lyman M die dimensions.

[Sparky5019]

It's not shaving lead. The bullet is not being seated crooked but more like its occasionally being allowed to not concentric and the case bulges on one side. The finished round does not look any different from every other round; the only way to determine the problem would be a chamber test. The seating stem shape is not a problem. The powder funnel/expander is not a problem as the case is expanded concentrically and the case just barely slides into the seating die.

[darr3239]

You seem to have eliminated the possible machine/die problem areas. My vote is on the funky looking bullets.

[T2C]

I have been having the same issues with some 147g lead conical flat point bullets I recently bought and am still working on a solution. The area on the brass where you see the bulge you mentioned is .002" larger in diameter than on rounds that will feed reliably. In the past I remedied the problem with other lead bullets by changing cartridge C.O.L.

Let us know what you have to do to correct the issue.

[IraqVet1982]

It looks like you ruled out it being a "seating problem" instead it seems that you have a chambering issue.

Next guess is C.O.A.L is T2C suggest.

[williejc]

After reflecting on this riddle, I say with confidence that using a Lyman M die would eliminate the problem, which relates to seating a .356 bullet in a case expanded by a "regular" expander.

Reloading and shooting swaged or cast bullets for some guys is more trouble than it's worth. The vast majority of my handgun shooting for the last 45 years has been done with bullets that I cast, sized, lubed, and then loaded. Many variables are at play.

[Sparky5019]

You seem to have eliminated the possible machine/die problem areas. My vote is on the funky looking bullets.

I wondered that but had zero trouble with conical bullets in .40 and .45. They seat vertical and straight but the problem children bulge the case to one side while the other side is straight. The OAL is a little short so they don't stick in the lands but they feed fine except in these instances.

I had a guy tell me that a competition seating due would solve it. Any experience with those?

[Sparky5019]

After reflecting on this riddle, I say with confidence that using a Lyman M die would eliminate the problem, which relates to seating a .356 bullet in a case expanded by a "regular" expander.

Reloading and shooting swaged or cast bullets for some guys is more trouble than it's worth. The vast majority of my handgun shooting for the last 45 years has been done with bullets that I cast, sized, lubed, and then loaded. Many variables are at play.

I'm definitely not casting my own. Lol. I'm not familiar with the M Die though I must admit, I'm not a fan of Lyman.

[markm]

I've yet to try the M die myself... but ran into a similar problem when Pappabear bought some .45 hollow point bullets. One of his over-bred 1911s wouldn't feed some of the rounds with non-concentric bulges. I quit loading them until we could solve the problem.

I'm not sure if hand aligning the bullets as straight as possible before running the press would help.

[Sparky5019]

Yeah. I gand align all of them since these aren't bevel base bullets. I'm going to cal BBI and ask them a few questions too. I don't see how a comp seater would help because the Dillon die is so tight that very little bell on the mouth will drag the sides. Can't get much tighter than that and not shave lead.

[texasgunhand]

I only have 3 months experience, but had the same problem,iam only trying to help.

After noticing FC had one side alot higher on the mouth of the case,.751 on one side .746 or so on the other.
I trimmed the cases to .746 and opened the bell up more. After trimming i beveled the inside and out like a rifle cartridge to remove rough edges. Then took a little more time making sure the bullet was straight bofer seating.

My bulge went away after doing that, but i dont know which step fixed it. I think it was opening the bell up more than i had it set. Seems to me with the tight bell and uneven case mouth its was guiding the bullets in crooked bulging one side of the case.

Before the insults start flying, this is only how i fixed it on mine. But i dont have my 9mm bulging on one side anymore. Iam only useing lee dies no compitition or special dies. I didnt have any feeding problems on my glock but thought it would be bad having it like that accuracy wise. I posted the same question a while back and got laughed at and told by some i also didnt have the dies adjusted right. Havent change the adjustment of my dies but the bulge went away. Hope this helps..

PS. I had the same problem with a coal at 1.135,1.146 and 1.150, coal didnt help in my case . I run at 1.146 to 1.150 useing 124gr bullet. I had the problem not only with FC brass but mixed range p/u brass ,alsowith different bullets . I think belling more fixed it,or maybe i just started guiding the bullets straighter when seating, try belling more first,thats the problem with doing 3 things at once,not sure what fixed it.

[markm]

I get the same thing with plated round nose bullets, but the hollow points were really bad. I just don't have the patience to resolve this issue for pistol ammo.

[Sparky5019]

I only have 3 months experience, but had the same problem,iam only trying to help.

After noticing FC had one side alot higher on the mouth of the case,.751 on one side .746 or so on the other.
I trimmed the cases to .746 and opened the bell up more. After trimming i beveled the inside and out like a rifle cartridge to remove rough edges. Then took a little more time making sure the bullet was straight bofer seating.

My bulge went away after doing that, but i dont know which step fixed it. I think it was opening the bell up more than i had it set. Seems to me with the tight bell and uneven case mouth its was guiding the bullets in crooked bulging one side of the case.

Before the insults start flying, this is only how i fixed it on mine. But i dont have my 9mm bulging on one side anymore. Iam only useing lee dies no compitition or special dies. I didnt have any feeding problems on my glock but thought it would be bad having it like that accuracy wise. I posted the same question a while back and got laughed at and told by some i also didnt have the dies adjusted right. Havent change the adjustment of my dies but the bulge went away. Hope this helps..

PS. I had the same problem with a coal at 1.135,1.146 and 1.150, coal didnt help in my case . I run at 1.146 to 1.150 useing 124gr bullet. I had the problem not only with FC brass but mixed range p/u brass ,alsowith different bullets . I think belling more fixed it,or maybe i just started guiding the bullets straighter when seating, try belling more first,thats the problem with doing 3 things at once,not sure what fixed it.

I appreciate that. One thing is for damn sure...I'm not trimming straight wall pistol brass; this can be fixed without resorting to that hellish endeavor.

That said, I wouldn't want to put it on soft or inconsistent brass because it's irregular.

If I put any more bell on the case mouth it will stop dead going into the seating die. I too prefer as much bell as I can get for that same reason; it eliminates shaving and seating problems. I'll report back when I have something.

Keep the ideas coming. I guarantee this won't be a straight forward solution.

[texasgunhand]

I stopped picking up tula brass brass becouse it did it so bad it didnt even wana fit in a lee FCD without it trying to resize it,the bulge was so bad on one side. That brass seemed alot stiffer than FC or other range p/u brass. I havent tryed tula brass brass since to see if it still did it.

I know you guys dont trim pistol brass,i trimmed it trying to figure out this problem. It does take a lot of time..lol

[williejc]

Tex, you analyzed the issue and solved the problem. Good work.

About the o.p's 9mm issues, variation in case thickness from brand to brand and even within the same brand may be the culprit. Obviously, thicker brass has a smaller internal capacity and will bulge before thinner brass will. Military cases are the thickest.

Another factor is that 9mm cases are tapered in such a way that the case diameter is smaller at the mouth, and the taper increases from the mouth on down. When using a carbide sizing die, we are running the case through a carbide ring. This ring produces the same case diameter from top to bottom. We no longer have a tapered case. We now have a straight walled case. During seating, we are forcing a bullet down a straight brass tube that used to be tapered. So, the bullet base may bulge the case and create a coke bottle shape. If it chambers and shoots, we are happy. Swaged and cast bullets become a big pain at this point because the have a larger diameter.

Now for the rest of the story, read about the Lyman M die--which is really an expander die with a two diameter shank.

Where is Eurodriver? He knows all this stuff.

[T2C]

I only have 3 months experience, but had the same problem,iam only trying to help.

After noticing FC had one side alot higher on the mouth of the case,.751 on one side .746 or so on the other.
I trimmed the cases to .746 and opened the bell up more. After trimming i beveled the inside and out like a rifle cartridge to remove rough edges. Then took a little more time making sure the bullet was straight bofer seating.

My bulge went away after doing that, but i dont know which step fixed it. I think it was opening the bell up more than i had it set. Seems to me with the tight bell and uneven case mouth its was guiding the bullets in crooked bulging one side of the case.

Before the insults start flying, this is only how i fixed it on mine. But i dont have my 9mm bulging on one side anymore. Iam only useing lee dies no compitition or special dies. I didnt have any feeding problems on my glock but thought it would be bad having it like that accuracy wise. I posted the same question a while back and got laughed at and told by some i also didnt have the dies adjusted right. Havent change the adjustment of my dies but the bulge went away. Hope this helps..

PS. I had the same problem with a coal at 1.135,1.146 and 1.150, coal didnt help in my case . I run at 1.146 to 1.150 useing 124gr bullet. I had the problem not only with FC brass but mixed range p/u brass ,alsowith different bullets . I think belling more fixed it,or maybe i just started guiding the bullets straighter when seating, try belling more first,thats the problem with doing 3 things at once,not sure what fixed it.

You bring up some good points. I believe that unless the case is perfect and the bullet set straight on the case mouth, you will wind up with a percentage of cases that are bulged to the point of causing feeding problems. I just loaded another batch of rounds varying C.O.L. without eliminating the occasional oversize case bulge problem. The loaded cartridge case measurements for cases that will fit in the loaded cartridge die are .380" at the case mouth, .390" at the web and .382" were the bulge is most prominent. The measurements for cartridges that fail are .384" at the prominent part of the bulge and the same for the mouth and web.

I am not going to spend the time you do on 9mm pistol case prep. If I find the lead bullets I recently bought are match accurate at 50 yards, I will buy a seating die that fully supports the case before the bullet begins to fully seat. Some people suggest the Redding Competition Seating Die to prevent the alignment problem. It is expensive, but will save a lot of time and aggravation.

If you find something that works through experimentation, don't hesitate to share it with us so we can discuss whether or not it works for us as well.

[T2C]

I could kick myself for not remembering this earlier.

Back in 1995 I was unable to purchase bulk quantities of lead pistol bullets from one supplier, so I switched to another. The new supplier had bullets with a softer lead compound, so I had to decrease the amount of crimp to prevent deforming the bullet. With the harder cast bullets I loaded with a .002" crimp. The formula for the crimp was Bullet Diameter + 2 x Brass Thickness - .004". The diameter of the coated lead bullet I am currently loading is .356" and the thickest brass I am using is Win +P+ brass @ .012". Plugging in the numbers, .356" + .024" - .004" gives me .376".

Today I screwed in the crimping die on my RL550B until the case mouth measured .377" and ran all the problem cartridges through the last stage again. All the problem cartridges passed the gauge test. The crimp die was screwed in .027" closer to the shell plate to get the correct crimp. It appears that was enough for the crimp die to bump the bulge on the case where the base of the bullet lies. Problem solved !!!!

I would not adjust more crimp at maximum powder charge weight, because tighter crimp will cause an increase in chamber pressure. If you try more crimp, please make sure you are at the middle or minimum suggested charge weight for your load. Also bear in mind that the 9mm is very sensitive to changes in crimp and it will affect accuracy.

I could just kick myself...............

[Safetyhit]

Duh. I've been loading for 30 years...that's not the problem.

"Duh"? IraqVet's response to this was rather cordial. Try to show a bit more respect to those trying to help you.

[texasgunhand]

T2C, thats what i meant when i said the lee FCD crimp die has a carbide ring in it.
Some like it , some hate it. But it will size that bulge down so the round will pass a wilson chamber gauge,thats probably why i didnt have feed problems. Iam sure you knew about the lee FCD carbide ring though.

But since i was useing berrys bullets,i though when it was resizeing in the crimp die that it was also pushing the bullet in on the side , deforming it. Thus screwing the accuracy up.

I would also like a seating die that did a better job of aligning the bullet.i might upgrade when i get some more experience. It takes me forever to load a box of rounds,but iam trying to remove all variables so when somethings off i can track the problem. The berry bullets, like lead throw even more challenges than fmj.
But the price is right compared to hornady fmj rn for learning and shooting paper. I wanted to do some experiments today to see if i could figure out what helped remove the case bulge, but with 5 inches of rain in 2 hours and being surrounded by one tornado after another all day i couldnt. Thank god the powers back on.
Bastrop tx has been through hell in the last 4 years.

PS, when i say something i did helped remove the case bulge iam not talking about smashing it in with the carbide ring on the FCD. Just to be clear. Iam just saying thats probably why they passed the chamber gauge. Mine also looked really bad on one side, yet the other side was perfect. Now i take the time to make sure each bullet is straight before seating,this also eats up a bunch of time.

[Sparky5019]

I could kick myself for not remembering this earlier.

Back in 1995 I was unable to purchase bulk quantities of lead pistol bullets from one supplier, so I switched to another. The new supplier had bullets with a softer lead compound, so I had to decrease the amount of crimp to prevent deforming the bullet. With the harder cast bullets I loaded with a .002" crimp. The formula for the crimp was Bullet Diameter + 2 x Brass Thickness - .004". The diameter of the coated lead bullet I am currently loading is .356" and the thickest brass I am using is Win +P+ brass @ .012". Plugging in the numbers, .356" + .024" - .004" gives me .376".

Today I screwed in the crimping die on my RL550B until the case mouth measured .377" and ran all the problem cartridges through the last stage again. All the problem cartridges passed the gauge test. The crimp die was screwed in .027" closer to the shell plate to get the correct crimp. It appears that was enough for the crimp die to bump the bulge on the case where the base of the bullet lies. Problem solved !!!!

I would not adjust more crimp at maximum powder charge weight, because tighter crimp will cause an increase in chamber pressure. If you try more crimp, please make sure you are at the middle or minimum suggested charge weight for your load. Also bear in mind that the 9mm is very sensitive to changes in crimp and it will affect accuracy.

I could just kick myself...............

T2C,

Thanks for the formula. I'll check the problem rounds against that. The Dillon seat die is pretty tight on the case. Is the Redding CSD tighter than that? The $$ is not a big deal if it actually will solve the issue. I just didn't want to buy the die and still have problems because that fix was not the correct one. The bullets are very popular so I figured they would be that way if they caused problems.

I'll check the dimensions of the crimp. How do you correct for mixed brass in that formula?

[T2C]

How do you correct for mixed brass in that formula?

I measured several cases and found the wall thickness ran from 0.010" to 0.012". I used the thickest case for the formula, so I would not over-crimp the bullet and varied the crimp in increments of 0.001" until I found the most accurate crimp.

When I load match ammunition for 50 yards, I separate cases by head stamp. When I was really serious about PPC shooting back in the day, I would keep 1,000 once fired brass from new ammunition I fired through my match gun and use it until I had to scrap the batch. Then I would start with another batch of 1,000.

[Sparky5019]

Great. Thanks. I'm not not going to separate headstamp/lot for the shooting I'm doing but that gives me sone numbers to work with.

Do you think a Redding CSD would help?

[T2C]

Great. Thanks. I'm not not going to separate headstamp/lot for the shooting I'm doing but that gives me sone numbers to work with.

Do you think a Redding CSD would help?

I believe that it would and I am strongly considering purchasing one for myself.

[williejc]

Lead bullets and especially swaged ones are easily reduced in diameter during seating if the expander was under size for the bullet. A crimp that would or almost deform the bullet is excessive. In this instance, crimping is being used to reduce the case's outside diameter so that the round will chamber. The die's crimp feature is accomplishing what a Lee carbide factory crimp die does--squeeze the case down to factory specs. Unfortunately, this action usually degrades lead bullet accuracy.

I don't think that crimp strength can form enough bullet pull to increase pressure to unsafe limits.

I gave an opinion in this post, and I mean no disrespect to T2C who very obviously is an advanced reloader. Hell! I might be wrong.

[T2C]

The die's crimp feature is accomplishing what a Lee carbide factory crimp die does--squeeze the case down to factory specs. Unfortunately, this action usually degrades lead bullet accuracy.

I don't think that crimp strength can form enough bullet pull to increase pressure to unsafe limits.

I agree with you. I believe that too much crimp will deform a soft bullet and have an adverse affect on accuracy. When I was able to buy Bull-X bullets, I set the crimp die to give a .377" reading at the case mouth and was able to get great accuracy at 50 yards. When Bull-X went out of business and I switched to a softer bullet, I had to set the crimp for a case mouth reading of .380" to obtain nearly the same accuracy.

As far as too much crimp causing overpressure at maximum loads, I experimented with it quite a bit. At loads weighing in the middle of the suggested range I loaded 20 rounds at little or no crimp, 20 rounds at .002" crimp and 20 rounds at .004" crimp for testing. The same powder charge and tighter crimp gave me higher muzzle velocities and the brass showed signs of higher pressure.

Too bad Bull-X went out of business. They made a great bullet and gave me a significant discount for bullet orders of 50,000 or more.

[texasgunhand]

Without starting a new thread and since were talking about crimp.
When a round is over crimped badly,what does it couse accuracy wise? Flyers left and right?up and down?
Or just degrade accuracy at long distance,say 25 yrds?? Iam sure its worse with plated bullets like berrys rather than a standered fmj such as a hornady fmj rn. In short what does it couse the round to do?

[Sparky5019]

I'll have to measure the crimps on the good rounds but I think I'm getting about .003-.004" of crimp. These are good hard bullets so I don't think deformation of the bullet is an issue. One thing about the Dillon seating stem...

The narrow cone of the bullet bottoms out on the nose on the SWC side. I may throw it on the mill and deepen it so it contacts the sides of the cone only. While I don't that that's the sole cause but I do think it will definitely assist in alignment.

Thoughts on that?

[texasgunhand]

Sparky, pull a bullet and check and see how bad its deforming or how bad the crimp ring is,then you will know for sure. I dont see how mashing the bump in isnt going to not deform the lead bullet.

[T2C]

I'll have to measure the crimps on the good rounds but I think I'm getting about .003-.004" of crimp. These are good hard bullets so I don't think deformation of the bullet is an issue. One thing about the Dillon seating stem...

The narrow cone of the bullet bottoms out on the nose on the SWC side. I may throw it on the mill and deepen it so it contacts the sides of the cone only. While I don't that that's the sole cause but I do think it will definitely assist in alignment.

Thoughts on that?

It would be worth a try. The bullets I am currently experimenting with are coated S&S Casting 9mm 147g FP with a rounded profile behind the flat point. I found that the round nose side of the seating stem works better than the flat point side for me, because of the bullet profile. I think the flat point side of the stem is better suited for seating bullets like a truncated bullet.

[Sparky5019]

I'll check on that. These are TC style but the nose us getting a ring from stem even though they are wearing straight otherwise. I tried the RN side and it was FUBAR. That's why I thought milling it deeper so the sides did the work might be better.

[Sparky5019]

Update...

Talked to the bullet maker and he suggested a Double Alpha powder funnel as well as the Redding CSD. Which brings me to the question of COAL.

Anyone have any favorite length for a G17? What feels/feeds best? I'll be adjusting the barrel throat any way since my barrel is known to be too tight for lead bullets anyway.

Thanks!

[T2C]

I have had the greatest success with reliable feeding at 1.090" C.O.L. with 115g RN bullets and 147g FP bullets.

[Sparky5019]

Roger that. I was thinking somewhere in the 1.1" range. Thanks! I'll find time to get things installed and tweaked and report back.

[Sparky5019]

More news!

I've since learned that the Lone Wolf barrels that I'm using have the tightest throat of any aftermarket barrel on the market. It was also recommended that I invest in Double Alpha's Mr. Bullet Feeder powder funnel because of the expander design.

So the parts/tools so far have been:
Redding CSD
Double Alpha powder funnel
Manson 9mm integral piloted throating reamer

I'll update y'all once everything has come together to produce the end product. Thanks again!

[T2C]

I had a Lone Wolf barrel on my Glock 34 and the chamber was really tight, so your feeding issues come as no surprise.

How do you think reaming the chamber will affect accuracy?

[Sparky5019]

I'm only going to slightly team the leade or throat. I've done this before in other guns when the leade has been short. You turn the reamer slightly and check then repeat. I don't thinking will have much effect on accuracy. Even it does only slightly, it's better than the gun coming to a dead stop and the round no going down range at all.

I considers changing to a Storm Lake barrel but even then I have to order it direct and tell them it's for lead bullets so they thought it accordingly. I'd rather do the job myself and have a tool for when someone needs it. I'll let you know once I get it on paper but I think the effect will be negligible at best seeing as how the overall chamber is not affected.

[texasgunhand]

Did you figure out the original problem of how to fix the bulging cases? What was causing it etc?
I read the updated post didnt see it. Are you now just going to try to open up the chamber a bit to fix the feeding problem?
Since taking the time to make sure and hand start the bullet straight before seating,my problem has gone away so far.Useing a single stage setup i only load 50 to 60 at one sitting but outa 3 sittings so far no bulged cases. But i see how on a progressive press this could slow your loading speed down alot.

[Sparky5019]

I've installed the Redding CSD and the Doubke Alpha powder funnel and that has helped. I've adjusted the crimp to 0.001"-0.0015" and that has helped as well. I'm waiting for the throat reamer.

Let's be clear...I'm going to ream the chamber LEADE/THROAT slightly NOT the chamber. Lone Wolf barrels are apparently notorious for having super tight leades.

The rounds chamber better with the new crimp but I can tell they're still hitting the rifling. Currently I'm loading them out to 1.105".

I'll let y'all know once the reamer shows up and I get that adjusted. Thanks!

[texasgunhand]

Ahh,i see. Great ,hopefully it will help eliminate the problem. I can see were a slightly bulging case and a short lead would lock it up nice. Good luck,i hope you found the problem and this eliminates it for you. Having two problems at once can be a hard fix and very frustrating.

[T2C]

I reloaded more 9mm today. I sized brass and checked each and every one of them with the loaded cartridge gauge before proceeding. The brass fell in and out of the gauge with no resistance. I culled out the Winchester +P+ brass, which made a significant difference. I only had to pull 2 bullets from cartridges loaded with WCC marked brass. All of the other cartridges loaded with mixed brass passed the gauge test.

[Sparky5019]

So where I am currently is...

I made the above changes and loaded some test rounds. They still catch slightly in the chamber throat (reamer arrived yesterday just haven't had time). I think most of it was in the crimp. Even with the slight catch, they still drop into the chamber by hand with a THONK. A solid stop at the end. The troublemakers were not this way.

As an aside, I still had to mill the seating plug of the Redding CSD. These small caliber conical bullets weren't allowing the sides of the plug to make solid contact. It was contacting the bullet way up toward the nose. That seemed to help some as well. The rounds look great and dry chamber really well with not set back than I can see. I just need to relieve a whisker from the throat and we should be gtg.

I'll report back once that is done...busy week so don't anyone hold your breath. Lol.

Thanks!

[Sparky5019]

So I gently reamed the throat of the chamber. SHAZAM! Just like butter! I'll start cranking out volume of the load and see how the changes do over the long haul but I think it's fixed!

Thanks to everyone! Great job brainstorming and troubleshooting!

[noylj]

My opinion--
If the bullet wiggles in the seating stem, get a custom seating stem. Nothing else about a seating die counts other than seating stem fit. When I get a custom seating stem, I want no contact with the meplat/nose of the bullet and lower the contact on the ogive, the better.
Other than that, being sure the case is properly expanded (not talking case mouth flare) such that case ID is 0.001-0.002" smaller than bullet diameter and that the bullet is sitting square in the case are the best you can do.