View Full Version : American Sniper - Marine Tactics
I watched American Sniper for the first time a couple of days ago. The thing that struck me was how the Marines were portrayed in Iraq.
I'm hoping there are a few Marine's on here who can answer this question.
Were the Marine's as poorly prepared to clear rooms as was portrayed in the movie? The random stuff shown in the movie, make them look like they're just kicking in doors and running into structures randomly. Or, is this simply a case of Hollywood depicting Kyle as the only person in the village who knew how to properly clear a room?
If the answer is yes, they were that poorly trained on room clearing, has their training improved in the years since?
Eurodriver
05-24-15, 22:02
Short answer: Yes.
The long answer would correct some bullshit about Marines being portrayed as undisciplined and acting like a bunch of unorganized idiots, but not that the average infantry Marine back in '04 spent a total of about 6 hours doing MOUT training before a deployment.
Not a Marine but was Army infantry back during that timeframe. Prior to the invasion we spent 90 percent of our training time doing general infantry tactics and about 10 percent MOUT.
While I never got to work with the Marines much we did cross paths a few times and unorganized idiots was definitely not the impression they gave me.
After the invasion MOUT became our life in my unit.
I watched American Sniper for the first time a couple of days ago. The thing that struck me was how the Marines were portrayed in Iraq.
I'm hoping there are a few Marine's on here who can answer this question.
Were the Marine's as poorly prepared to clear rooms as was portrayed in the movie? The random stuff shown in the movie, make them look like they're just kicking in doors and running into structures randomly. Or, is this simply a case of Hollywood depicting Kyle as the only person in the village who knew how to properly clear a room?
If the answer is yes, they were that poorly trained on room clearing, has their training improved in the years since?
If you ever get to read the book, it makes a lot more sense- per Euro and C-Grunt's posts.
(no, I'm not a marine- just pointing out that the book was quite a bit different than the movie portrayed it as...)
Read the book when it first came out, I don't recall much about marines being idiots......it has been a while since I read it though.
I do remember his strong sense of wanting to protect them.
Hmm, well it seems you can't make a movie about SEALs without making Marines look like shit.
I was in Fallujah in Nov 04' and became an instructor after so I can probably offer some insight. Were we as bad as the movie portrayed? Sometimes.
We did do quite a bit of additional training at Camp Fallujah prior to entering the city. It was mostly stuff like tank/armor integration as most of us had minimal experience on that end of things. My unit had been in country for months so we were used to C&K/door popping/village sweeps--but nowhere on that scale (who had?)
After literally your 35th structure that day? Minimal or no sleep prior? For extended periods of time? Shit gets ****ed up. That's a no-shitter. I thankfully mostly stopped getting adrenaline dumps earlier in the war but the highs and lows were brutal for most. The first few days were the worst.
We also came across problems we hadn't had before in regards to available personnel and equipment. We also found that some old TTPs didn't work out at all (I dubbed this '90's theory based bullshit'). This resulted in some experimentation. Like all experiments, some stuff worked and other stuff didn't (FYI, a SMAW doesn't breach a wall very well, but a tank works awesome).
So sometimes we were rockstars and other times we relied on VOA, improvised methods, and numbers. But no, the SEALs weren't the only ones that knew what they were doing.
Training got much much better starting in about 2005 for several reasons: We got firsthand results of what worked and what didn't and Marines with experience gained rank, and with it the ability to change some aspects of training.
Would we do it the same way now? Of course not, we have the benefit of more than a decade of further experience. The results would be the same though.
Coal Dragger
05-24-15, 23:42
I was a USMC grunt and did a tour in Iraq in 2004 just prior to getting out. As others have stated MOUT was not the main focus of all of our training activities. Even if the command had wanted it to be the training resources just weren't there pre-9/11 to train for it as much as we would have liked. Post 9/11 it got a bit better, and we saw more after the invasions but still not the only focus. MOUT training facilities were always in demand, and units had to cycle through pretty quick. We did do a solid week of training just prior to deployment at March Air Force base in an old housing area that was going to be torn down, that was actually pretty useful since we could do whatever we wanted with those structures. Of course that kind of training freedom was a rarity for any average fleet Marine, or probably for most Army grunts in regular units.
By the time I deployed I was in the reserves, and we had quite a few SNCO's that were cops in the real world and most of them were on their department's SWAT teams. Frankly they taught us a lot more than the MOUT instructors did, but they had access to us all the time once we were all put back on active duty, and some of them probably had more experience at that point in clearing structures of no shit bad guys than the MOUT instructors.
I was a USMC grunt and did a tour in Iraq in 2004 just prior to getting out. As others have stated MOUT was not the main focus of all of our training activities. Even if the command had wanted it to be the training resources just weren't there pre-9/11 to train for it as much as we would have liked. Post 9/11 it got a bit better, and we saw more after the invasions but still not the only focus. MOUT training facilities were always in demand, and units had to cycle through pretty quick. We did do a solid week of training just prior to deployment at March Air Force base in an old housing area that was going to be torn down, that was actually pretty useful since we could do whatever we wanted with those structures. Of course that kind of training freedom was a rarity for any average fleet Marine, or probably for most Army grunts in regular units.
By the time I deployed I was in the reserves, and we had quite a few SNCO's that were cops in the real world and most of them were on their department's SWAT teams. Frankly they taught us a lot more than the MOUT instructors did, but they had access to us all the time once we were all put back on active duty, and some of them probably had more experience at that point in clearing structures of no shit bad guys than the MOUT instructors.
I was a Marine grunt in Vietnam in 1967-1968, only received a modicum of "jungle" training before going in country, then it all became OJT! I was very impressed by the the professionalism and training displayed by the Marines in Gulf 1 and later in Iraq and Afghanistan. They were better prepared and trained then we were in Vietnam. The Army was also markedly better prepared for the Gulf wars than they were in Vietnam. I thank them all for their dedicated service to their country. Semper Fi to all Grunts!!!:smile:
davidjinks
05-25-15, 10:01
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Coal Dragger
05-25-15, 10:31
It wasn't a matter of not wanting to do the training, it was a matter of getting alloted the time. Particularly on the reserve side. Then of course you have commands that suck, and my last one was epically bad at company and battalion level. The battalion comander was relieved of duty in Iraq, and his replacement immediately fired our company comander. Maybe the single best day of my OIF2 experience other than flying out of TQ to get out of shit ass Iraq.
I almost feel like reading the book should be a self-required prerequisite to seeing the movie. That or the movie should have un-Hollywoodized itself but have taken 3+ hours to watch. Lone Survivor was the same way.
I almost feel like reading the book should be a self-required prerequisite to seeing the movie. That or the movie should have un-Hollywoodized itself but have taken 3+ hours to watch. Lone Survivor was the same way.
Not to derail this but as far as the book vs movie thing goes, this isn't the first. "We Were Soldiers Once" (the movie) completely left out the second, more costly part of the Nov. 1965 Ia Drang Valley battle.....the march to LZ Albany and the ensuing fiasco tooth-and-nail battle. Sure, it would've made for a 4-hour movie, but still.
While still in high school during 2004, I know OJT was the name of the game for a lot of Marines, while I came into the fleet in 08, I know a good amount of units that were thrown together in order to augment battle plans, while I was an Airwinger, I knew a good amount of Aviation Supply Marines who were order to grab rifles and packs and became attached to units in Helmand province, an became over night grunts with only a brief stint at MCT to go off of. But professionals non the less, a buddy of mine from Texas became the only guy in his supply unit to have a combat action ribbon.
I also agree that liberties were definitely taken with the movie to portray all the roles that Chris Kyle did in his tours of Iraq
davidjinks
05-25-15, 18:47
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Coal Dragger
05-25-15, 18:53
Our leadership was clearly failing us. To the point General Mattis relived our battalion comander of his duties and his sidearm.
We trained at the small unit level while in theater, but only because our good SNCO's made it happen. At battalion and company level our command was clueless. This was 2004 so you still had a lot of peace time mindset officers that frankly just didn't get it.
I would imagine a SEAL had a lot more training in CQB than the average soldier or Marine. Kyle seemed like the type to help anyone at the drop of the hat and that's what the movie tried to portray throughout.
Our leadership was clearly failing us. To the point General Mattis relived our battalion comander of his duties and his sidearm.
We trained at the small unit level while in theater, but only because our good SNCO's made it happen. At battalion and company level our command was clueless. This was 2004 so you still had a lot of peace time mindset officers that frankly just didn't get it.
Hate to say it but that is a general trend in the SMCR, the I&Is often refer to them as Lts with oakleaves and many battalion COs were relieve, never activated or were replaced with I&I counterparts
I would have to look on my work computer, but if I remember right the PTP for deployment for OIF 2 had MOUT type training starting in block 1 with the EMP course of shooting, block 2 in team entry and room clearing, block 3 with squad, platoon and companies in urban environments and block IV with battalion in urban environments.
This lowly squid has no idea what you just said, but it certainly sounds all official and stuff. :)
Too bad our men were deployed without at least room clearing training and communicating. Great feedback that is much appreciated guys.
SEAL CQB is not complicated and doesn't take a long time to learn the basics of clearing and communicating. I certainly would have saved some of our guys lives.
The SEAL's keep it very simple, repeatable and practice it until it is able to be done without thinking. Shoot - Move - Communicate.
ClearedHot
05-25-15, 22:45
CQB isn't some black art that only SOF guys know how to do. Any infantry Marine who has been through an SOTG course such as the Raid Leaders Course will be able to execute any type breaching and room clearing.
Coal Dragger
05-26-15, 00:23
R0N,
Hate to say it but out battalion comander was fresh off active duty from 29 Palms. He was not only clueless, but would habitually show up (after the fact) to places we got into a firefight and fire rounds from his M9 off into the dirt. Then put himself in for a CAR, or some other bullshit. It was pathetic. Sorry dude, you spent most of your career as a peacetime officer, it happens; now you're a battalion comander and you missed the initial invasion. Chances are you aren't going to get to do much in the way of combat. That didn't stop old "busting caps" though. He'd make sure the area was fairly secure, then show up with our idiot ass SGTMAG in tow, then impress us with his displays of marksmanship and poor judgment.
The officer who replaced him had been on the reserve side for quite some time, and was (strangely) excellent.
R0N,
Hate to say it but out battalion comander was fresh off active duty from 29 Palms. He was not only clueless, but would habitually show up (after the fact) to places we got into a firefight and fire rounds from his M9 off into the dirt. Then put himself in for a CAR, or some other bullshit. It was pathetic. Sorry dude, you spent most of your career as a peacetime officer, it happens; now you're a battalion comander and you missed the initial invasion. Chances are you aren't going to get to do much in the way of combat. That didn't stop old "busting caps" though. He'd make sure the area was fairly secure, then show up with our idiot ass SGTMAG in tow, then impress us with his displays of marksmanship and poor judgment.
The officer who replaced him had been on the reserve side for quite some time, and was (strangely) excellent.
There are quite a few really good RC officers and SNCOs out there but even MARFORRES recognizes there are issues with its officers and SNCOs till this day.
The post OIF 1 and 2 AARs of the reserves was really quite damming, the bottom line if reserve SNCO or officer was not relieved it was considered a successful activation
Freshly off of AD really has little to do with it, since up to a few years ago for reserve SNCOs and Officers there were quite a few ways to come onto orders for multiple years. In most cases they filled make work jobs on MEF and MARFOR staffs, ironically this willingness to take orders made them more competitive than actual ability.
Coal Dragger
05-26-15, 02:45
Sounds about right. Peacetime oriented military, career officers and SNCO's had to get the right tickets punched to advance or stay in. Definitely a gap in the perceived suitability versus actual capability, and it wasn't just on the reserve side of the house. I was exposed to enough active duty to see it too.
Hey, just think with our current Comander in Chief the services are quickly shedding as many combat oriented officers, and enlisted as possible and going right back into derp mode!
Glad I got out.
Eurodriver
05-26-15, 06:36
R0N,
Hate to say it but out battalion comander was fresh off active duty from 29 Palms. He was not only clueless, but would habitually show up (after the fact) to places we got into a firefight and fire rounds from his M9 off into the dirt. Then put himself in for a CAR, or some other bullshit. It was pathetic. Sorry dude, you spent most of your career as a peacetime officer, it happens; now you're a battalion comander and you missed the initial invasion. Chances are you aren't going to get to do much in the way of combat. That didn't stop old "busting caps" though. He'd make sure the area was fairly secure, then show up with our idiot ass SGTMAG in tow, then impress us with his displays of marksmanship and poor judgment.
The officer who replaced him had been on the reserve side for quite some time, and was (strangely) excellent.
Did you actually see this? While I hesitate to call anyone a liar, the busting caps CO story wreaks of scuttlebutt.
I don't know a single Marine officer who would damage his career and reputation by not only doing the above mentioned things, but also making it so well known that everyone knew about it.
CQB isn't some black art that only SOF guys know how to do. Any infantry Marine who has been through an SOTG course such as the Raid Leaders Course will be able to execute any type breaching and room clearing.
Respectfully, urban combat is not CQB. MOUT battle drills are not CQB.
Coal Dragger
05-26-15, 11:44
Eurodriver,
Yep I witnessed this once, and we thought it was the old man just being excitable. Then it happened again with another platoon.
I doubt it would have caused any problems but for some reason the guy decided to actually try to claim it as combat. Not sure who brought it to the attention of 1st MEF, but once it got verified along with a few other issues a correction was issued swiftly, and in person. At the time my platoon and one other platoon were out in the middle of the desert providing security for a mass Graves excavation and forensic team. We got back to find we had a new battalion comander and a new acting company comander. Morale, and day to day operations improved immensely after that.
Definitely a gap in the perceived suitability versus actual capability
Damn, good job, you just summed up the reason I got out, officers and SNCO's above me who no doubt looked great on paper but had pretty obvious flaws once given a greater responsibility. There is a quote out there, " I love the Marine Corps, I only wish I could change it."
Sounds about right. Peacetime oriented military, career officers and SNCO's had to get the right tickets punched to advance or stay in. Definitely a gap in the perceived suitability versus actual capability, and it wasn't just on the reserve side of the house. I was exposed to enough active duty to see it too.
It's an unfortunate fact that often times the best peacetime military managers and administrators are not the best battlefield leaders. We've repeated the same process of swapping between the two groups primarily constituting unit commanders a half dozen times since the dawn of the 20th century and we never seem to learn the lesson of leaving one or the other out of the mix...
Just saw this movie too. I didn't so much think that the Marines were portrayed as incompetent... I got the sense that they were tasked with assignments that guaranteed they'd take casualties. As a side note, I was glad they didn't portray the death of Chris Kyle. They ended the movie perfectly.
WickedWillis
05-26-15, 17:15
As a side note, I was glad they didn't portray the death of Chris Kyle. They ended the movie perfectly.
I thought so as well. I think this was a smart decision by Eastwood.
Eurodriver
05-26-15, 17:51
Just saw this movie too. I didn't so much think that the Marines were portrayed as incompetent... I got the sense that they were tasked with assignments that guaranteed they'd take casualties. As a side note, I was glad they didn't portray the death of Chris Kyle. They ended the movie perfectly.
What irked me was the dude playing video games up with Chris who was all like "Nah man, I'm going to chill up here with you. It sucks down there. "
No one ends up rogering up with a SEAL Sniper and does not want to go in and either:
A) Blow shit up for fun (Because he's a boot)
or
B) Help guys on the ground (Because he's BTDT and knows it sucks)
I love to call Marines out. They can be dickheads, assholes, lazy, scumbags, and can possess all of the worst attributes of the Bible but when it comes to the overwhelming vast majority of infantry Marines in positions such as his, "Marines don't do that".
Is that part in the book? Was he a POG? Was he some shithead the Company Gunny just wanted to get rid of? I know there are malingerers and pussies and legit dudes with flat-out PTSD who are just not functioning anymore but for the life of me I can't see how that was accurate.
I thought so as well. I think this was a smart decision by Eastwood.
Yes, the ending was perfect and profoundly sad.
trackmagic
05-28-15, 17:55
What irked me was the dude playing video games up with Chris who was all like "Nah man, I'm going to chill up here with you. It sucks down there. "
No one ends up rogering up with a SEAL Sniper and does not want to go in and either:
A) Blow shit up for fun (Because he's a boot)
or
B) Help guys on the ground (Because he's BTDT and knows it sucks)
I love to call Marines out. They can be dickheads, assholes, lazy, scumbags, and can possess all of the worst attributes of the Bible but when it comes to the overwhelming vast majority of infantry Marines in positions such as his, "Marines don't do that".
Is that part in the book? Was he a POG? Was he some shithead the Company Gunny just wanted to get rid of? I know there are malingerers and pussies and legit dudes with flat-out PTSD who are just not functioning anymore but for the life of me I can't see how that was accurate.
In the book Kyle spoke very highly of the Marines. I don't recall him saying anything negative about them in the book. The Army however.... He said some of the units in the army are pretty terrible. He also said some were fantastic.
What irked me was the dude playing video games up with Chris who was all like "Nah man, I'm going to chill up here with you. It sucks down there. "
No one ends up rogering up with a SEAL Sniper and does not want to go in and either:
A) Blow shit up for fun (Because he's a boot)
or
B) Help guys on the ground (Because he's BTDT and knows it sucks)
I love to call Marines out. They can be dickheads, assholes, lazy, scumbags, and can possess all of the worst attributes of the Bible but when it comes to the overwhelming vast majority of infantry Marines in positions such as his, "Marines don't do that".
Is that part in the book? Was he a POG? Was he some shithead the Company Gunny just wanted to get rid of? I know there are malingerers and pussies and legit dudes with flat-out PTSD who are just not functioning anymore but for the life of me I can't see how that was accurate.
One of those Marines from the STA Plt depicted in the movie was my first Team Leader. At the time, we were rolling with heavy independent and self-sustainable fireteams to further interrupt the freedom of movement for the enemy, as well as focus on a FID Mission.
He was a fvcking animal. Some of the other guys called him the "Undead Sniper Demon" for his strange ability to stay awake forever, which only seemed to increase his anger, and his absolute calm and tranquility in hard contact.
No, he didn't spend the Phantom Fury days playing Gameboy or running away from a fight. No, he didn't talk like a half-stoned idiot or look like a scrawny ass trailer park reject. In fact in the pictures of him and CK standing side by side, you wouldn't pick CK out as being the "better trained".
All of my Senior Marines were OIF 1-2 vets. The majority of them had been written about several times, and I can assure you spending time around them would make it very clear that they weren't at all interested in boasting or being recognized for their actions. It wasn't until I went into the Bn HQ building that I was able to read their commendations and learn what they had done in sustained months of intense combat. My TL for example actually crossed over to stay in the fight in Al Fajr after Vigilant Resolve left him wanting to finish.
And not to engage in any bickering about who is better, but it gets pretty old that every SEAL movie has to shit on the names of dead Marines to make their dick look bigger. Like that bullshit in Lone Survivor "Shah killed 20 Marines last week, he'll kill 40 next week!" No, he didn't. TWO Marines were killed in the AO and it's still debated that Shah had anything to do with that other than letting AQ use his home as a staging area because he wanted to be recognized as supporting the efforts of the Mujahideen. Shah wasn't even an HVT, he was a low level drug dealer. Actual sustained Urban Combat and MOUT isn't the same as room clearing. SEALs have a specific function, they're really good at it because they spend a lot of time and money making sure they are. But they haven't been the walking legends of the battlefield that recent books and films make them out to be.
Its all a team effort. Everyone does their part or nobody is accomplishing shit. Why some of the Team Guys feel the need to drag the others through the mud to make their own exploits sound so great, I will never understand.
Coal Dragger
05-29-15, 04:43
The room clearing thing is very tough business on a sustained basis. Especially when you're repeatedly going from one structure to the next and have no idea what the layout even is.
I very fondly remember clearing a building one night just off the Euphrates and popping into what I thought was a room with a finished floor. Yeah....it was unfinished dirt and also about 18" lower than the hallway. Totally ate shit on that one, and lucky I didn't get fvcking shot or fall on a booby trap. The joys of depth perception with NVG's...
CQB isn't some black art that only SOF guys know how to do.
Exactly. Unfortunately it looks like a black art to those who don't get the chance to train in it.
Exactly. Unfortunately it looks like a black art to those who don't get the chance to train in it.
I'll repeat what I wrote to ClearedHot:
Urban combat and MOUT is not CQB. MOUT battle drills are not CQB.
davidjinks
05-29-15, 11:03
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davidjinks
05-29-15, 11:04
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But…….the books……the movies…….HOLLYWOOD!!!
Exactly, I didn't know what to think about Kyle after the whole Jesse Ventura thing, and trust me as a citizen when he was governor he made very little friends here in Minnesota, but I still have a hesitation when it comes to Chris Kyle in general. Not against his record as a sniper or as a SEAL, or how he valued American Service Men and Women, just a personal thing. I liked Andrew Truohy's little post on Vurrwapen Blog as to who this guy really was. I think that after Marcus Luttrell and a whole slew of SEAL movies, Kyle was cashed in by Hollywood. I like a lot of what Clint Eastwood does, but I'd be lying if I didn't think that he was in it for the dollar signs. I watched some of the interview with Bradley Cooper, and all I could think was that he needed a War Movie under his belt to solidify his movie star status.
I'm pretty sure that most of us understand that here dude. Not sure why you need to keep pointing it out.
In my experience, when we would train for MOUT operations, CQB was part of that training.
The point is that what GPF do, is not CQB.
When you practice room clearing as part of a rifle squad, this is a MOUT battle drill. CQB is not trained at the GPF level.
I'll post what some guys in the know said about the topic someplace else (the posters are both SOF guys):
Infantry MOUT/CQB training: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFDDhNGUP94
SF CQB training: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klbaL8N_VQ0
Pay very close attention to the guys inside the shoothouse doing the shooting and where they are. The infantry bubbas aren't even CLOSE to that level (seeing as how they aren't even training in shoothouses). The SF guys are NOT Tier 1 bubbas, just Green Berets and not at the APEX of the training evolution held by Tier 1 bubbas. You don't know what you don't know and never bothered to go and figure it out. Ranger RGT MIGHT be at the level of the 2nd video these days, but as they are a USSOCOM/USASOC asset, that kind of blows your argument out of the water.
The primary Tenets of successful CQB are Surprise (owning the night/dark), Speed (getting to the target as quickly as possible...this COULD rely on the physical fitness of the team), and Controlled Violence of Action (this is what needs to be rehearsed AGAIN and AGAIN till you live and breath it).
Infantry NEEDS to be able to operate in a MOUT environment. Infantry needs to be able to clear not only rooms, but buildings, as they move through a town. Do not EVER mistake these skills as replacements for SOF trained CQB dudes. They never will be the same.
Just some dude on the internet
Urban combat is not CQB. It's MOUT. It's FIBUA. It's straight up movement to contact with an objective of closing with and destroying the enemy. Urban position by urban position. When the Marines cleared Fallujah, it was the same fight that their Fathers saw in reclaiming Hue. The fight their Grandfathers did in Seoul or Cologne.
CQB is for when you need to do something discriminatory. Like capture someone specific. Which means you need actionable intel. Which means you need to invest in the the assets (ISR, HUMINT, SIGINT, Fusion Centers, ECM, Assault Forces, Enablers,etc.) and patient mindset to surgically eviscerate the enemy. You can't kill your way to victory in an insurgency conflict.
US SOF/SMUs will continue to excel in potential CQB environment because, more often than not, they've invested significant effort in plowing and tending the fields that grow those kinds of targets. It's really not Infantry work although there is a lot of crossover when the shooting starts.
That is why I disagreed with ClearedHot's assertion that CQB was not some black art reserved for SOF. Many guys on here are not military, and have never been. That is why clear and concise information is important. Words mean something.
I'll repeat what I wrote to ClearedHot:
Urban combat and MOUT is not CQB. MOUT battle drills are not CQB.
What's your point, in relation to my statement?
Since we're repeating ourselves: It's not some super ninja black art, but it looks like one to those who don't train in it.
davidjinks
05-29-15, 14:51
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Although correct that CQB and MOUT may blend some similar TTP and not exactly the same, CQB is often trained to by non-SOF. The Marine Corps actually has a CQB team member MOS for security force Marines, who under the forces-for are lump into GPFs
Please, let's not turn this into an argument, or SOF team bashing contest. I doubt any of the team guys had very much input into the portrayal of Marines in the movie. It was likely done by Eastwood to create a bit more mystique about Kyle and his abilities. Real and imagined. Some didn't see it the same way as I did, so it must not have been that overt.
It really struck me when Kyle called for the breacher, with a hand signal and all but one of the Marine's stood there like "WTF" is that all about? There were no "true" stacks, no apparent assigned space or responsibility for clearing when entering the room, dependent on your place in the stack etc.....
I was simply curious if this was true, or a Hollywood creation. Sounds like it was a bit of both, which makes a lot of sense. There is really no need to start arguing over a movie! :)
Please, let's not turn this into an argument, or SOF team bashing contest. I doubt any of the team guys had very much input into the portrayal of Marines in the movie. It was likely done by Eastwood to create a bit more mystique about Kyle and his abilities. Real and imagined. Some didn't see it the same way as I did, so it must not have been that overt.
It really struck me when Kyle called for the breacher, with a hand signal and all but one of the Marine's stood there like "WTF" is that all about? There were no "true" stacks, no apparent assigned space or responsibility for clearing when entering the room, dependent on your place in the stack etc.....
I was simply curious if this was true, or a Hollywood creation. Sounds like it was a bit of both, which makes a lot of sense. There is really no need to start arguing over a movie! :)
I don't see any real bashing, the thread was intended to clarify if it was an accurate portrayal of the common skill level. Many here are saying, though from different angles, that it was at best inaccurate. I am of the belief that it was intentional, and if it was I really don't care what the director's motives were.
I would understand certain deviations from fact and historical accuracy for the sake of acceptable film length. For example, portraying Ryan Job as going through BUDS with CK to avoid a somewhat unimportant scene or plot line, as he joined CK's Team long after Kyle had gone through SQT of that time. Not accurate, but doesn't hurt the character development of someone who the audience is supposed to be upset when they hear about his death.
What I can't excuse is the deliberate effort to make particular mil members appear inept. Not only did the majority of the Marines look like dumb, inexperienced, panicky or lazy cowards (which has nothing to do with the tactics being taught at the time), it was entirely unnecessary to make Kyle's exploits any more or less significant. Same with the Rangers, who looked just as bad as the Marines in the movie. I don't blame CK, as he always gave a lot of credit to those two particular groups, even though I don't believe his account to be 100% honest.
As to the scene you mentioned, that was a goat rope for a lot of reasons. Nobody is taught to do hand and arm signals with their firing hand, especially when positioned in the doorway. The Marines might have been using a different signal for breachers, which highlights that different elements train differently, but neither is necessarily "wrong". But instead they stood around like slack jawed booger eaters. Funny, a whole lot of dead Muj from Fallujah say that the Marines were something a little different.
Don't doubt how much Team Guy input the movie had. Same with Lone Survivor. While their technical advisory role probably didn't give them a lot of input in the director's vision, there were enough involved that someone who knew better should have said so. That's the most simple way to lay it out without airing any truly dirty laundry.
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