View Full Version : Growing divide between military and civilians?
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/05/25/us-military-and-civilians-are-increasingly-divided.html?ESRC=army.nl
I just don't know what to say. Maybe I'm from a different generation, but these college-aged pukes they mention can go f**k themselves. Yeah yeah, freedom of speech and all.
I was born one year after the "Baby Boom" officially ended. I grew up ALWAYS holding the military in high regard and with great respect. My grandfather was a WWII USMC vet and he was the closest grandparent to me personally. I spent 4 years active and 3 in the NG so I walked the walk (got lucky as it was during mostly peaceful times).
I just don't understand but it makes me angry........
So you are David Zucchino of the LA Times, you make your living writing and you need to sell what you write on a regular basis to keep making that living. So you choose a subject and set out to write the story, most of the time the way you, the writer, see it.
The story lays out some statistics that are kind of misleading - for example - 'While the U.S. waged a war in Vietnam 50 years ago with 2.7 million men conscripted from every segment of society' - while that is true, every segment of society was represented, the upper middle class and the wealthy were dramatically under represented - thanks to the system of deferments that favored them. And it was actually around 9,000,000 serving during the Viet Nam War, 2.7 is the number that set foot on the ground. That 11-year war was fought by a large number draftees who did two years of service and then got out. About 1 in every 10 draft/military aged man served in the conflict.
VN was a polarizing war, just as is the GWOT. The difference is that the draftee during VN only served once, so there was a constant churn of troops, with each draftee serving a 12 to 13 month tour. Contrast the professional, all-volunteer Armed Forces of today. They didn't reinstitute the draft, which led to a much more professional and capable force doing the fighting, but it also exposed many of you to repeated trips to the sandbox.
As a result not as many families had/have skin in the game, thus the disconnect.
I reckon if the Chickenhawks had reinstituted the draft for the GWOT we would have seen some protests that made those of the 60's look like tea parties.
The fact is that the way we wage war has changed - we didn't have to raise an Army from nothing, we had the all volunteer force.
Opinion polls consistently find that the military is the most trusted American institution. A Gallup poll last June found that 74 percent of more than 1,000 Americans surveyed had "a great deal" or "quite a lot" of confidence in the military -- versus 58% in 1975, at the close of the Vietnam era.
Yet a 2011 Pew Research Center study titled "The Military-Civilian Gap" found that only a quarter of civilians who had no family ties to the military followed war news closely. Half said the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan made little difference in their lives, and half said they were not worth fighting.
I was in junior high and high school during the VN War, in Lincoln, Nebraska we didn't follow the war that closely, there wasn't near the coverage, so I'm not so sure that 1/4 of the population paying attention was far off. (FWIW, in 1972, two weeks after HS graduation, my butt was at MCRD San Diego getting trained up to kill a commie for mommy) In WWII, if our troops got beat there was a slight possibility that America would face an enemy invasion. I don't think anyone really thought Ho was going to bring the fight to our shores. Same today.
Most people, myself included, would rather live in a world where no armies are needed. Of course that ain't going to happen in our lives.
They hate us cause they ain't us. :cool:
Flankenstein
05-27-15, 00:42
No...
VN was a polarizing war, just as is the GWOT. The difference is that the draftee during VN only served once, so there was a constant churn of troops, with each draftee serving a 12 to 13 month tour. Contrast the professional, all-volunteer Armed Forces of today. They didn't reinstitute the draft, which led to a much more professional and capable force doing the fighting, but it also exposed many of you to repeated trips to the sandbox.
Not sure if you are an advocate of the draft or think it would be a good thing, but I personally wouldn't want to make those "professional soldiers" have to depend upon people who at best are there against their will and at worst doing everything they can to undermine anyone or anything.
As for the article being largely the opinion of the writer, I think that is mostly the case. I think the 60s were much worse when it came to a divide between the military and the civilian population. Drug addled hippies and communist sympathizers viewed them as baby killers. Much of the rest of the country felt Vietnam veterans failed in their efforts. Both groups contributed to a sense of shame associated with those who served.
Probably the worst thing this country has done to it's veterans since the Bonus Army.
There are a lot of people who criticize the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I think most of the population is supportive of those who served.
Eurodriver
05-27-15, 03:31
There are a lot of people who criticize the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I think most of the population is supportive of those who served.
Agreed. And let's not attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity. A lot of the "anti-military" folks are more "wtf is a Marine?" And less "you're a baby killer"
Averageman
05-27-15, 05:00
I don't particularly feel a connection to most who haven't served. I entered as a teenager and exited as I was turning 40, those were some good years and they shaped my life.
I don't see a lot of discipline or direction from many of my civilian counterparts, nor do I understand many of their viewpoints on things as valid. I don't disrespect them, but it is kind of hard for me to listen to a sob story from someone who hasn't seen something outside of their own county let alone their country.
Hearing how "tough" most of them have had it makes me want to buy them a one way ticket to some third world shi* hole so they have a little better comparison about just what "tough" really is.
I have met some great friends that I will have undying respect for while serving, as a civilian, eh,....not so many.
It really may be the quality of person they were before they joined, military service just tuned the frequency a bit higher.
Not sure if you are an advocate of the draft or think it would be a good thing, but I personally wouldn't want to make those "professional soldiers" have to depend upon people who at best are there against their will and at worst doing everything they can to undermine anyone or anything.
As for the article being largely the opinion of the writer, I think that is mostly the case. I think the 60s were much worse when it came to a divide between the military and the civilian population. Drug addled hippies and communist sympathizers viewed them as baby killers. Much of the rest of the country felt Vietnam veterans failed in their efforts. Both groups contributed to a sense of shame associated with those who served.
Probably the worst thing this country has done to it's veterans since the Bonus Army.
There are a lot of people who criticize the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I think most of the population is supportive of those who served.
I agree, that people are supportive of the troops, pretty equally divided between those who are sincerely supportive, and those who are supportive because that is what the cool kids are doing.
I am not so much a supporter of the draft as I am universal conscription into some form of government service, be it military, medical, disaster relief or public works.
Several of my current friends were drafted during the VN era. They relate that they were pretty focused on returning whole and did the job. We did win WWII with a 'new' armed forces, comprised of a higher percentage of draftees than the VN war.
I will agree that people in general are supportive. I have watched that "support" evolve however. I will speak only to my own experience. When I rotated back at the end of Anaconda, the amount of support and well wishing was overwhelming. Coming back from Iraq (again, early stages) the unconditional support was replaced with a range of folks expressing something like "I support our troops, but not the war" to questions of "why are you still in doing what you do knowing what we all know" and the ever popular "aren't you ashamed?" -- all followed with the "I support our troops though". I still get an awful lot of "thank you for your service" a lot more than the negative comments however.
They hate us cause they ain't us. :cool:
This comment is on point. I drink coffee with a group of retired guys a few times per week and those that did not serve in the military show a subtle amount of jealous animosity to those of us who did serve.
WickedWillis
05-27-15, 11:04
I did not serve, but I support those who did 100% and hold no animosity or jealousy towards Veterans.
Flankenstein
05-27-15, 11:18
This comment is on point. I drink coffee with a group of retired guys a few times per week and those that did not serve in the military show a subtle amount of jealous animosity to those of us who did serve.
No, that comment is idiotic.
No, that comment is idiotic.
That comment was supposed to be slightly funny. Hence the shaded smiley at the end.
But since we are being all serious I also feel like sometimes I don't connect as well with someone who hasn't served. Even friends I went to high school with and was close with then. Sometimes I feel like there is a mixture of jealousy/regret in not joining/not understanding etc. Of course Alex Jawnes thinks we are taking over and POTUS thinks we are the next big terror threat! :confused:
Flankenstein
05-27-15, 11:42
That comment was supposed to be slightly funny. Hence the shaded smiley at the end.
But since we are being all serious I also feel like sometimes I don't connect as well with someone who hasn't served. Even friends I went to high school with and was close with then. Sometimes I feel like there is a mixture of jealousy/regret in not joining/not understanding etc. Of course Alex Jawnes thinks we are taking over and POTUS thinks we are the next big terror threat! :confused:
Ok. Tone is tough at times through text. Cool guy shades emoticon is not indicative of jest or sarcasm either.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-27-15, 12:33
I'm actually surprised at the lack of people in uniforms in airports, are more travelling in civilian clothes or something? 40 flights this year and I think I saw one person in BDUs. I never see officers.
I thought the article was interesting in how it seemed to dis the Reserves. Last three presidents didn't serve ACTIVE military, as if W and Clinton had the same experience. The Stanford girl going reserve instead of active duty. I know the difference in level of commitment, but I had an acquaintance that had the military pay for his Med School, graduated right around 9/11, was an ER doc and never had to serve outside the US. How in the heck do you do that? It seems not only that a small fraction of civilians serve, but only a subset of the military ends up doing multiple tours.
What is the solution?
And what happens when the drones/robots do most of the fighting as some forecast?
BoringGuy45
05-27-15, 13:01
I think another thing is that it's cool to hate America among the younger crowd. When you talk about how bad ISIS is, or what the Nazis did, you'll get a quick response from most young people about how it is no worse than what we did to the Native Americans, Japanese, blacks, Iraqis, etc., and how they don't support anyone because everybody sucks. Except them of course. They aren't part of the problem.
They don't care about anybody but themselves, and they look down on people who aren't apathetic as stupid. The idea of putting one's life on the line for anyone or anything is seen is a waste of time. As such, in their eyes, if you join the military, it can only mean that you're a brainwashed sheep or a total psychopath.
I know the difference in level of commitment, but I had an acquaintance that had the military pay for his Med School, graduated right around 9/11, was an ER doc and never had to serve outside the US. How in the heck do you do that?
Was it .mil that paid or .gov? Any chance he was involved with the U.S. Public health Service? They have the National Health Services Corps (NHSC) which places doctors in under served areas, and they also have Commissioned Officers of the USPHS.
Or are you just remarking that you thought it unusual he was in the military and didn't go overseas?
By the way, I'd like to hang with GW, I think he is a nice guy, but if you don't think he was dodging the draft at the Fort Worth Flying Club just as much as Clinton was, well.......
I wasn't in the military. I wanted to join, but I had a problem with authority and knew it wasn't for me.
I have the utmost respect for the GOOD men and women who served. I Say "good" becuSe I have met a few pieces of shit who just so happened to have served and their was nothing other than the military service to respect about them. Bad apples.
Some of my closest friends and family are current or former military and we get along very well. Many have mentioned to me that I am one of the few non military people that they get along with and understand them.
I'm constantly asked by people if I served, when I tell them I didn't they are surprised. Guess I'm just that type of dude, but never actually served.
Every time I see an older gentlemen with a Korea or Vietnam hat on I shake their hand and thank them for their service. Usually it turns into a beer or two and a lot of good conversation.
I know many younger guys who want to join and are very good people who respect military members/vets.
Their are quite a few morons out there who hate the military and service members- it's indoctrination by the progressives plain and simple.
Some of the BS I had to endure from professors and classmates in college was disgusting. Liberal minded people don't all necessarily hate the military/members; but I find all the retards who do have this negative stigma just so happen to be self proclaimed liberals, democrats, progressives, socialists, etc.
I have yet to meet a conservative, republican or libertarian who held this negative stigma. Met some who didn't have much of an opinion one way or the other.
Some people just mindlessly listen to and accept the BS they are spoon fed; sadly more and more people do with each day. But that's a symptom of a larger problem that lies deeply within our Federal Govt, public school system, media- all working together to eviscerate the core values and fundamental framework of America.
Eurodriver
05-27-15, 14:34
I'm actually surprised at the lack of people in uniforms in airports, are more travelling in civilian clothes or something? 40 flights this year and I think I saw one person in BDUs. I never see officers.
I thought the article was interesting in how it seemed to dis the Reserves. Last three presidents didn't serve ACTIVE military, as if W and Clinton had the same experience. The Stanford girl going reserve instead of active duty. I know the difference in level of commitment, but I had an acquaintance that had the military pay for his Med School, graduated right around 9/11, was an ER doc and never had to serve outside the US. How in the heck do you do that? It seems not only that a small fraction of civilians serve, but only a subset of the military ends up doing multiple tours.
What is the solution?
And what happens when the drones/robots do most of the fighting as some forecast?
Really? I always saw Army dudes flying around. Do they even own any other articles of clothing?
You'll never seen Marines because
A) we aren't allowed to wear cammies off base
B) everything else is too damn uncomfortable
C) why the hell would we wear a uniform when we can wear civilian attire and get away with not shaving?
People who wear uniforms at the airport are dumb.
I'm actually surprised at the lack of people in uniforms in airports, are more travelling in civilian clothes or something? 40 flights this year and I think I saw one person in BDUs. I never see officers.
I travel almost monthly and we make it a point to NOT look military (which is impossible), no camo carry ons or luggage, no velcro hats, etc...
EDIT- And what Eurodriver said. Especially since it's probably burning into my weekend to be traveling, so damnit Ima be comfy.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-27-15, 14:52
Was it .mil that paid or .gov? Any chance he was involved with the U.S. Public health Service? They have the National Health Services Corps (NHSC) which places doctors in under served areas, and they also have Commissioned Officers of the USPHS.
Or are you just remarking that you thought it unusual he was in the military and didn't go overseas?
By the way, I'd like to hang with GW, I think he is a nice guy, but if you don't think he was dodging the draft at the Fort Worth Flying Club just as much as Clinton was, well.......
No, he was Navy. I just found it odd that he, as an ER doc, fully trained when the war was in full swing, was never sent over, while my wife knows other docs that did multiple tours. Its not like he was a pediatrician or something.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-27-15, 14:54
I travel almost monthly and we make it a point to NOT look military (which is impossible), no camo carry ons or luggage, no velcro hats, etc...
EDIT- And what Eurodriver said. Especially since it's probably burning into my weekend to be traveling, so damnit Ima be comfy.
Yeah! You probably are human chaff for Air Marshalls trying to blend in ;)
I think there is a slight disconnect with the general population mostly because such a small percentage serve and the wars dont affect non military families.
The only time I ever wore BDUs/DCUs in the airport was to and from Iraq. The support, cheers, and handshakes I received was way more than I wanted. Not that its not appreciated but Im not one who likes the attention. On my flight from Phoenix to Dallas to go back to Iraq some guy even gave me his 1st class seat.
I never experienced very much negativity. Then again Im not a small guy either. Only thing I can remember was a young college age chick on the flight from Dallas to Phoenix who acted like she was sitting next to a homicidal maniac. She was curled up into the corner of her seat and didnt look at me the whole flight. Which was quite the accomplishment since we were flying coach. But truthfully I was on a pretty small FOB then without real showers or laundry service so I probably smelled bad.
Spurholder
05-27-15, 15:24
No, he was Navy. I just found it odd that he, as an ER doc, fully trained when the war was in full swing, was never sent over, while my wife knows other docs that did multiple tours. Its not like he was a pediatrician or something.
I've got a cousin that went to USUHS back in the late 70's to early 80's. Free medical school, with pay, followed by a 30 year career and an O-6 retirement. He did go to a lot of different places, as he was a swabbie.
Spurholder
05-27-15, 15:27
Really? I always saw Army dudes flying around. Do they even own any other articles of clothing?
You'll never seen Marines because
A) we aren't allowed to wear cammies off base
B) everything else is too damn uncomfortable
C) why the hell would we wear a uniform when we can wear civilian attire and get away with not shaving?
People who wear uniforms at the airport are dumb.
D) Walking the fine line between traveling hammered and being too drunk to board...just saying.:D
I am not so much a supporter of the draft as I am universal conscription into some form of government service, be it military, medical, disaster relief or public works.
What if a person is a walking disaster at all of those things? What if another person is one of the most talented individuals in his field? Do you really support having a guy who can network the entire communications system take time off for "community service"? What about construction workers, mechanics and other similar individuals who work their ass off to take care of their family? Should they be forced to stop what their doing in order to "serve"?
About the only ones I can think of who should be obligated into some form of community service are those who are receiving government benefits. I'd also support making "community service" work available to anyone who can't find a job.
But other than that I don't think we should force anyone to do anything. Sounds like a nice idea and the next thing you know your typical suburban idealistic kids will find themselves "doing time" in some program with gang bangers, drug dealers and similar types. The former will be at constant risk as a result and it is unlikely the latter will see the light and become "decent people."
I will agree that people in general are supportive. I have watched that "support" evolve however. I will speak only to my own experience. When I rotated back at the end of Anaconda, the amount of support and well wishing was overwhelming. Coming back from Iraq (again, early stages) the unconditional support was replaced with a range of folks expressing something like "I support our troops, but not the war" to questions of "why are you still in doing what you do knowing what we all know" and the ever popular "aren't you ashamed?" -- all followed with the "I support our troops though". I still get an awful lot of "thank you for your service" a lot more than the negative comments however.
Having "thrown my hat into the ring" (and got lucky because no one was trying to kill me during that time) I don't believe in the usual platitudes you hear now...."Thank you for your service" and such. I will tell a guy a quiet "Hooaahh" or "Thanks for being there".
Had an opportunity a few years back to hold the door as I came out of a restaurant for a younger guy with short hair who was walking in (I don't live too far from Ft. Campbell). He had a prosthetic leg. I held the door and stood aside and he looked at me and said "Thanks", as you would expect. I simply replied "Hey, my pleasure man". He smiled and so did I. No platitudes, just respect.
I think another thing is that it's cool to hate America among the younger crowd. When you talk about how bad ISIS is, or what the Nazis did, you'll get a quick response from most young people about how it is no worse than what we did to the Native Americans, Japanese, blacks, Iraqis, etc., and how they don't support anyone because everybody sucks. Except them of course. They aren't part of the problem.
They don't care about anybody but themselves, and they look down on people who aren't apathetic as stupid. The idea of putting one's life on the line for anyone or anything is seen is a waste of time. As such, in their eyes, if you join the military, it can only mean that you're a brainwashed sheep or a total psychopath.
OMG! You win the internetz!
Right on point, excellent post sir!
Really? I always saw Army dudes flying around. Do they even own any other articles of clothing?
You'll never seen Marines because
A) we aren't allowed to wear cammies off base
B) everything else is too damn uncomfortable
C) why the hell would we wear a uniform when we can wear civilian attire and get away with not shaving?
People who wear uniforms at the airport are dumb.
I know this has nothing to do with the topic but I second this all day long, Euro I owe you a beer.
IZinterrogator
05-28-15, 00:39
As an Army dude, yes, we own other articles of clothing. As of last year, we aren't allowed to fly in ACUs unless on R&R from a war zone or going to or returning from one. Same rule as the Marines, no one in their right mind wants to fly in their service uniform for the same reasons. So if you see a guy in Multicam at the airport, shake his hand and buy him a beer, then sit down and ask him how his part of the war is going. If you see someone in ACUs with the asphalt/couch camo, feel free to bust him out as either a valor theif or a shitbag trying to scam a free upgrade to first class.
Averageman
05-28-15, 04:46
A lot of rules have been relaxed as to what you are allowed to fly in.
I'm not sure if anyone else here remembers Khaki's, but it was the Class B uniform back when I first came in and it was comfortable, presentable after 12 hours in transit and it was the least formal uniform (and you had to fly in uniform) you could fly in.
The trick was to make the flight back to CONUS in your Khaki's and change in to something a little less obvious and a little more comfortable that you had in your AWOL bag. When I see Soldiers flying in Fatigues I kind of think things have relaxed a bit too far, hell we weren't supposed to stop and buy gas in fatigues or a PT Uniform.
I don't get too far out of my little comfort zone anymore, but all the Guys I work with are Veterans, all my brothers, my father, etc, etc. I think it is a bit of a culture shock for me when I get outside of that comfort zone and meet a skinny jeans wearing liberal college student. I usually just avoid the whole event for the most part if at all possible.
It was looked at as a rite of passage to manhood in my family, so I would guess the few folks I have contact with that aren't vets I have a predisposed opinion, but usually I'm right.
In the AF (before I retired anyway) one could often see what you could wear/ordered to wear on your travel orders. I had orders that specifically stated civilian clothes. Other times it was BDU/ABU authorized (as opposed to Class A/blues). When I went to Hawaii last year, a young airman seated next to me was going to Hickam on orders and wearing his ABU's. That is what he was ordered to wear.
I would much rather be in civvies.
You'll never seen Marines because
A) we aren't allowed to wear cammies off base
B) everything else is too damn uncomfortable
C) why the hell would we wear a uniform when we can wear civilian attire and get away with not shaving?
The haircut bro. You can spot'em a mile away.
What if a person is a walking disaster at all of those things? Then they spend their time emptying bed pans, or are ruled unfit by reason of....you are always going to have shirkers, what I'm talking about is citizenship.
What if another person is one of the most talented individuals in his field? I'm talking mandatory service for people at the beginning of their adult lives, most would be before a collegiate career, if after a collegiate career there would be stipulations to make that route available. Yep, it might interfere with the next Bill Gates launching his career, but it wouldn't prevent it. We are not talking taking 30 year-old mid-career folks with families away from their jobs.
Do you really support having a guy who can network the entire communications system take time off for "community service"? What about construction workers, mechanics and other similar individuals who work their ass off to take care of their family? Should they be forced to stop what their doing in order to "serve"?
Once again, families should be small for the age group we are talking about, the pay would be similar to the system we have now, BAQ, BAS, etc.
About the only ones I can think of who should be obligated into some form of community service are those who are receiving government benefits. I'd also support making "community service" work available to anyone who can't find a job.
I totally agree with your second statement. Regarding your first statement, we all receive some sort of government benefit whether it be travel on state and federal highways, a safe civil aviation infrastructure, or being protected by our military forces. I'm kind of a 'gung ho' all work together kind of believer and I don't view government as evil simply because, you know, it is government. The government serves to help us band together and accomplish many great things with some (some) degree of fairness. I once attended a small church, I really liked it, but the congregation kind of split and it got to the point that our tithes were just keeping the doors open, we were not doing any mission work. At that point as much as I hated to, I left and joined a larger church, as a result my tithes have helped to support the church, dig several water wells in Africa, and served as the seed money to start a loan program which helps enable Afghan women to begin their own businesses, plus build houses locally for lower income families, giving them the opportunity for home ownership that they might never have had otherwise. Additionally, I've been able to work with groups of men from different congregations to do construction/remodel projects on Indian reservations, other states and locally. I view Government, administered properly, as just that kind of force multiplier. Universal service would expose many of our young Americans to their first doses of personal responsibility and societal ethics. Think of it as a mandate Mormon Mission without the LDS Church :D
But other than that I don't think we should force anyone to do anything. Sounds like a nice idea and the next thing you know your typical suburban idealistic kids will find themselves "doing time" in some program with gang bangers, drug dealers and similar types. The former will be at constant risk as a result and it is unlikely the latter will see the light and become "decent people."
IDK about you, but at age 18 I found myself with a group of 72 other kids, 3/4 of which you would characterize as gang bangers, drug dealers and other types, worked out just fine for me, my moral compass was already set on it's azimuth. It was my experience that many of those 3/4'ers got their moral compasses readjusted. A sense of accomplishment in a righteous task does do that.
We will probably just have to agree to disagree on this one.
IDK about you, but at age 18 I found myself with a group of 72 other kids, 3/4 of which you would characterize as gang bangers, drug dealers and other types, worked out just fine for me, my moral compass was already set on it's azimuth. It was my experience that many of those 3/4'ers got their moral compasses readjusted. A sense of accomplishment in a righteous task does do that.
We will probably just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Experiences in my area have been different. They include an honor student high school girl who was beaten and raped because her "magnet program" had her taking classes as a ghetto fabulous school in Ft. Lauderdale.
I get your sense of community, but understand all of your things that you have done have been voluntary choices. The government already get's plenty of community service out of me when it comes to paying income taxes from the time I was in high school. I don't think anyone really owes them anything more than that.
And if mandatory community service actually made bad people good, every offender in a boot camp program would get turned around. Sadly the success rate isn't terribly impressive. Also mandatory service sounds a lot like socialism and well...that just isn't me.
I'm actually surprised at the lack of people in uniforms in airports, are more travelling in civilian clothes or something? 40 flights this year and I think I saw one person in BDUs. I never see officers.
In the AF, as mentioned previously, you're told what to wear when travelling. But more often than not, you're ordered to wear civilian clothes. I returned from Afghanistan in civvies (red cross flight), but I went over in ABUs. I definitely did not like the attention, although I did enjoy going through the First Class line in the security check point. This was before a CAC got you automatic TSA Pre-Check. If you pay attention, you can generally pick out a ton of military personnel travelling in civvies at an airport. It's painfully obvious.
More often than not, I see cadets travelling in uniform more than active duty.
KalashniKEV
05-28-15, 23:30
Does anyone really care if there's a growing divide between civilians and military/ veterans?
Am I supposed to be all busted up that I can't talk about the War with somebody who wasn't there... and have them understand?
Is it some kind of problem that ribbon-magnet-people aren't schlobbing my knob, shaking my hand, and thanking me for my service?
Who cares?
And anyway, I'm personally much more comfortable hearing intelligent criticism of the Iraq War (even including my role in it) than I am listening to some fool say, "Oh, you were in Iraq? 9/11 was the worst! I hate Muslims. Blah blah bahhhh..."
Personally I don't feel or see a divide. However I think it depends with whom and where you do most of your activities. Like many here, I don't require special attention or accolades for my service. I'm just a regular joe that decided to do something meaningful at that time for my country. After trading my boots for suits, I've surrounded myself with people of similar thinking. I don't see military and citizens. I see Americans stepping up when they can in their personal way large or small, whatever their means will allow them, to help the cause of freedom. YMMV.
And if mandatory community service actually made bad people good, every offender in a boot camp program would get turned around. Sadly the success rate isn't terribly impressive. Also mandatory service sounds a lot like socialism and well...that just isn't me.
I agree, I think that the key to turning around the problem communities of this country are not in mandatory service instead education, a proper one at that. Mandatory service is a guaranteed job but with no guarantee of high performance. Education instead can help people understand that what they are doing is wrong. An example would be that the son of a gang-banger (parlance of our time), realizes that his daddy and mommy failed him and that all of there gains economically were a temporary solution. Now said kid has a kid of his own and wants to give him everything his parents couldn't, but he realizes that if he gets a job and works hard he might be able to put the kid into college so long as the kid holds up the other-side of the bargain.
The problem though, is that our government and economic systems are becoming more European, meaning that they are pushing people into a dependency state for everything, it attacks the middle class with promises that everyone gets a free education, and that education then becomes exactly what the student pays for, nothing. When the promise of upward mobility is not a challenge than people stop trying. Politicians know that this is a doomed system, but they get votes by supporting it, and they'll let future generations pick up the pieces.
The military and the only divide I see is that this remains out of the European style all together, the military promises you 3 hots and a cot. (if your lucky) and that is it. No more. You have to work, and work hard if you want more, and if are getting more that too, comes with more responsibility. The military is always needed especially by the politicians, not just for defense, but for political gains, however, they detest the way the military works from the get-go.
Does anyone really care if there's a growing divide between civilians and military/ veterans?
Am I supposed to be all busted up that I can't talk about the War with somebody who wasn't there... and have them understand?
Is it some kind of problem that ribbon-magnet-people aren't schlobbing my knob, shaking my hand, and thanking me for my service?
Who cares?
And anyway, I'm personally much more comfortable hearing intelligent criticism of the Iraq War (even including my role in it) than I am listening to some fool say, "Oh, you were in Iraq? 9/11 was the worst! I hate Muslims. Blah blah bahhhh..."
Of course you are. Hey, your BTDT status has most certainly guaranteed your right to associate with whomever you please. If that choice is pontificating with some latte-sipping, skinny jean-wearing homo then have at it.
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