View Full Version : Is history repeating itself in handgun triggers?
A62Rambler
05-27-15, 11:07
I have an honest question about triggers in semi auto handguns. We started with single action(SA) and quickly got double action. When LE decided to go to semi autos they nixed the idea of a SA for the most part and chose DA guns. Then they tried DAO guns and then lightened the DAO pull. Meanwhile the switch to striker fired made it possible to have a really light quasi DA pull. Now they've lightened that and there are aftermarket parts to make the break more crisp. In effect aren't we really returning to the SA trigger? It's a more modern design but essentially isn't that what the new striker fired pistols are trying to achieve?
I won't speak for the LEO world, the coppers can do that, but I think you're right in competition world. It seems everyone is looking to get as close as possible to a 1911 trigger in their polymer gun. I replaced the sear, sear block, and trigger in my M&P to straighten out the trigger for 3gun. Although controversial, I think it would be helpful in self-defense also. I wound up at a 3.6lb. pretty crisp pull on mine, which I don't think is overly light for self-defense.
A friend of mine once said in regards to items that were being marketed in an SG News magazine that he had seen similar products 20-30 years ago. Everything goes in cycles. This is what i think you are seeing to a great extent.
NWcityguy2
05-27-15, 12:39
Yes and no. Companies could make a striker fired gun with a 3lbs trigger, very little take up and a screw to adjust for over-travel, but they don't. The 5-7lbs trigger, the take up and the longer reset are still viewed as safety features and figure to stick around for a while.
Very few LEOs modify their triggers with aftermarket parts, and even less are authorized to do so by policy. Some departments, like mine, have a list of authorized brands, which have to be a certain caliber and capacity. So in theory I could carry a competition oriented pistol, but so far there are no factory pistols that really set themselves apart to such a degree that it's worth the swap. I'd also have to find a level 3 holster for it, preferably one that accommodates a light. Right now companies are making pistols marketed to competition, but putting the burden of modifying the trigger on the consumer.
A62Rambler
05-27-15, 13:41
The 5-7lbs trigger, the take up and the longer reset are still viewed as safety features and figure to stick around for a while.
That's why I asked the question. Original single actions had 5-7lb pulls with mushy take up and overtravel. It just seems to me that the modern stiker fire autos share more than a few similarities to what the original single actions were.
NWcityguy2
05-28-15, 00:59
I'm not aware of any single action auto like that which was truly popular with LE in the US. If you want to compare a DA/SA gun vs a striker fired gun, both with about the same trigger pull after the DA, then we have taken a clear step forward compared to the DA/SA of old. One trigger pull vs two trigger pulls, and in a modern qualification course you'll be doing lots of drawing from the holster and shooting that DA shot, the striker fired is the clear winner.
Plus, an advanced shooter can learn to shoot the DA half of a DA/SA gun very well, but it takes much less training to get an average shooter up to par with a striker fired gun.
I don't know. The longer I shoot, the more I like a DA type of pull. H&K LEM or Glock with a - connector and NY1 spring.
It works better for me under stress and I'm not significantly slower with it.
Everything runs in cycles. EVERYTHING. Aside from a few manufacturers IMO triggers have gotten crappier over time. This has lots to do with the legal situation. Aka the lawyer trigger that's designed to cover liability ass instead of make the gun go bang. The other aspect is the departure from solid metals polished to stamped sheet metal and MIM to increase profitability. The change in mfg process coupled with few people who actually shoot enough to care leads to not enough demand for quality triggers in any guns. The very few who shoot enough and care to upgrade do so on their own. Police departments also add to the mess with their lawyers adding to the corporate lawyer layer of full retard. Mass produced factory triggers will continue to suck. There will however be third party vendors who meet the demand for those who want better.
Everything runs in cycles. EVERYTHING. Aside from a few manufacturers IMO triggers have gotten crappier over time. This has lots to do with the legal situation. Aka the lawyer trigger that's designed to cover liability ass instead of make the gun go bang. The other aspect is the departure from solid metals polished to stamped sheet metal and MIM to increase profitability. The change in mfg process coupled with few people who actually shoot enough to care leads to not enough demand for quality triggers in any guns. The very few who shoot enough and care to upgrade do so on their own. Police departments also add to the mess with their lawyers adding to the corporate lawyer layer of full retard. Mass produced factory triggers will continue to suck. There will however be third party vendors who meet the demand for those who want better.
I think we are getting towards a single action feel (which everyone always agreed felt better) w/ the safety of a double action trigger (which every one considers safer)
Basically we may be actually getting close to best of both worlds, we are by no means returning to the 'cocked and locked' days, that will remain a 1911 thing. I see zero reason for a company to release a new design of a hammer fired pistol that is not also a double action gun.
The main reason the Walther PPQ got so much interest initially was people primarily focused on the quality of the trigger pull out of the box. I have one and it is not the be all, end all answer, due to certain deficiencies. That said, the Glock, M&P, etc. have deficiencies as well. Nothing is perfect and knowledgeable shooters will always want to tinker if nothing on the market checks all their requirement boxes.
I compete with a Dan Wesson 1911 sporting a sub 3# trigger pull that breaks like a glass rod. On duty I carry a Glock 21 SF with stock internals. I never practice with the 21 before qual day, because my intent is to shoot 100% cold and on demand. It just takes more time and focus to break every shot correctly, but it's doable. By the same token, I've driven away from matches with no more prep than loading defense ammo in the DW and buckling up. I'm not worried about the light trigger because I'm not going to put my finger on it unless I mean to pull it.
It's all about training and reps until you ingrain it into the subconscious. Most people will never do that, even if they carry every day. For them, SA and modded triggers aren't smart. It's just too much risk to take, vs. the payoff. They're trying to buy confidence with money and hardware, when they should be buying confidence with time, effort and software.
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-28-15, 12:26
I have always been puzzled by the move towards ultra-light safetyless triggers. A few decades back people were thinking DAO. Now people are like "to hell with it!" 1911 with the safety removed!
I have always been puzzled by the move towards ultra-light safetyless triggers. A few decades back people were thinking DAO. Now people are like "to hell with it!" 1911 with the safety removed!
Yeah I've been thinking the same thing lately. But for the purpose of what a handgun is for, and how I use 'em, I really feel like a DA or LEM type trigger is a safety asset.
For the 'more training' replies, I've burned through well over 100K rounds the past ten years in training and competition through handguns alone. I'm good with a DA and I like 'em.
I like std striker triggers, light enough to mash and get decent hits with good splits, heavy enough to feel it while the timer is running. I did not see a drop in accuracy moving from sao to striker, and the sao was a bit lighter.
Nobody ever argued that SA guns don't have a better trigger pull. The LE move to DA and DAO was done because of the ability to have passive safety and untensioned firing mechanisms. Now, modern designs are allowing those features to be combined with better tuned triggers.
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-28-15, 20:27
The safeties of which now being passive to the point of practical non-existence.
Interesting theory. In a way, but not in the traditional sense of the saying. I think people want a SA weight and striker DA convenience. So more of a hybrid thing. Personally, it's not a big deal as long as the rules are followed.
Interesting theory. In a way, but not in the traditional sense of the saying. I think people want a SA weight and striker DA convenience. So more of a hybrid thing. Personally, it's not a big deal as long as the rules are followed.
Agreed on that. People want the DA but a SA feel. I just got a spring kit to lighten my XD up but for the price I'm paying for the springs, I can't beat it. 3.5-4.0 Lbs and not lose the reliability and not walking around with a target trigger either.
It's an odd evolution for manipulation and user preferences. Strikers are absolutely the way to go IMO
I have always been puzzled by the move towards ultra-light safetyless triggers. A few decades back people were thinking DAO. Now people are like "to hell with it!" 1911 with the safety removed!
The safeties of which now being passive to the point of practical non-existence.
It's nice to see that I'm not the only one that feels this way.
I get why you want trigger work but what perplexes me is: I just bought a brand new G19, all the ghost components to make it have a neat trigger, some ridiculous sights, stipple everything save for the slide, a big ass light laser combo, mag well flare, big as Texas mag release, threaded lone wolf conversion barrel and g22 mags and call it a day. Then when that's all done I can take it to the range and show my buddies and we can all gawk at how awesome it looks and talk about the trigger work and maybe run a box thru it.
Does anyone else see this stuff? Sorry to rant but the whole trigger thing has my nuts in a bind. I like factory weapons and to change what I don't like after I've ran it for a little while. Get a feel for what you like and what you don't like, then change it.
I get why you want trigger work but what perplexes me is: I just bought a brand new G19, all the ghost components to make it have a neat trigger, some ridiculous sights, stipple everything save for the slide, a big ass light laser combo, mag well flare, big as Texas mag release, threaded lone wolf conversion barrel and g22 mags and call it a day. Then when that's all done I can take it to the range and show my buddies and we can all gawk at how awesome it looks and talk about the trigger work and maybe run a box thru it.
Does anyone else see this stuff? Sorry to rant but the whole trigger thing has my nuts in a bind. I like factory weapons and to change what I don't like after I've ran it for a little while. Get a feel for what you like and what you don't like, then change it.
Yup, then they get burned down on the range by some dude with a stock pistol who spent all his money on ammo, and dryfires daily.
People change parts without getting any live fire on it, just based on feel. I've seen people change parts out multiple times between range sessions!
I have always been puzzled by the move towards ultra-light safetyless triggers. A few decades back people were thinking DAO. Now people are like "to hell with it!" 1911 with the safety removed!
DA/SA decocker for me. My production gun is DA/SA safety however. For some reason, I like that initial long double action pull, even if it is smooth as butter and only 7 pounds.
The safeties of which now being passive to the point of practical non-existence.
Not only that, but it seems like the new striker fired guns are getting less and less take up before the break point. Great for shooting, kind of scary when it's time to put a loaded weapon back into the holster.
DA/SA decocker for me. My production gun is DA/SA safety however. For some reason, I like that initial long double action pull, even if it is smooth as butter and only 7 pounds.DA/SA guns get a bad rap sometimes, but there's a lot to like about them if you know how to use one. That long DA pull allows you to get more aggressive on your first shot than you can with a SAO or striker gun.
I just have a hard time finding one that I can reach the trigger on for the first shot without compromising my grip. :(
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