What went wrong with my 9mm reload?

[Skyfire1201]

I've been loading rifle ammo for a while and just recently got into reloading 9mm handgun. I'm using a Lee 4 die set on a Forster co-ax press. The components are Montana Gold 115gr JHP with mostly FC brass. I think I setup everything correctly especially with the expander die, the case flaring being just wide enough to accept the bullet. However after my first 50 reloads I noticed a few rounds came out like this:

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu229/skyfire1201/Reloading/CIMG8710_zps4vlzewxs.jpg (http://s650.photobucket.com/user/skyfire1201/media/Reloading/CIMG8710_zps4vlzewxs.jpg.html)

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu229/skyfire1201/Reloading/CIMG8712_zpsftivd3n8.jpg (http://s650.photobucket.com/user/skyfire1201/media/Reloading/CIMG8712_zpsftivd3n8.jpg.html)

Basically it looks as if the bullet didn't sit "straight" within the case, and one side of the case has bulged. Any educated guesses as to what might have gone wrong? Does the bullet has to sit exactly straight (pretty hard to do given the seat of the bullet) for it to come out perfectly? The bullet appears to chamber just fine in my G19, though I'm hesitate to fire it since I'm concerned it'll cause uneven pressure and potentially blow up in the chamber.

Thanks in advance!

[black22rifle]

Maybe it's a bit oversized?

[T2C]

The bullet was definitely pressed into the resized brass crooked. I have had this happen, even when I was careful to set the bullet on the brass straight before seating the bullet.

Did you set the die to touch the shell plate before adjusting the seating stem? This will support more of the case wall before the bullet is seated.

The seating stem should match the bullet profile as well. Is the seating stem for a round nose bullet? If the seating stem and bullet profile do not match, the bullet can cant and enter the case mouth out of alignment while seating.

Will the cartridges that have the bulge pass the plunk test in your barrel? You want to remove the barrel from the pistol to perform the test. The cartridge should easily drop into the barrel chamber, then fall out when you tilt the barrel over. If they pass the plunk test and everything else is done properly, i.e. correct powder, reasonable charge weight, .002" crimp, etc., the cartridges should be safe to fire.

I check suspect cartridges with a loaded cartridge gauge like this one http://www.midwayusa.com/product/888465/le-wilson-max-cartridge-gage-9mm-luger?cm_vc=ProductFinding and recommend it to anyone who reloads pistol ammunition.

[texasgunhand]

Try belling the case a little more so you can start the bullet straight by hand before pressing. Take a little more time doing this and your problem will go away. Remember to only crimp enough to remove the belling from the loaded round.

I use the wilson pistol max gauge to check the brass after resizeing AND after loading the round to check to make sure the brass is good to go before doing any further work to it,really helpfull when you use range P/U brass. If it doesnt pass, in the recycling bin it goes,i dont chance it. Since doing it this way i have never had a problem at the range with FTF or FTE. If you want your rounds perfect it takes alot of time to reload them.

Dont be scared to load a dummy round,NO powder or primmer. Then pull the bullet to check for shaving or over crimping. Till you feel good about it,you are gona have some wasted products when starting something new,better now then later on down the road. Theres a thread open right now here on bulged 9mm cases,take a look in there also. Altho it is an advanced advice thread to me also on different seating stems,dies and crimp methods. For you i think a little more belling and starting the bullet by hand straight will solve your problem.

PS,,,I also use lee dies, be sure and take your seating die apart its easy just unscrews,and clean and VERY lightly lube it, mine was very sticky till i did this, couseing uneven seating depths etc. You should really clean all new dies before useing them , then also every once in a while to get the gunk outa them. Also if your useing the lee FCD (Factory crimp die) it says in the instructions to turn it half a turn for a light cimp. I think thats a bit much,i set it at a quarter turn , especially useing bullets such as berrys bullets that aernt a true FMJ. But how much crimp is up to you to decide. Iam beginning to think that just running it into a setup lee FCD without turning the crimp adjustment will remove the belling becouse of the carbide ring in it. But i still give it a little bit of a turn just to make sure, its a trial and error thing.

[Skyfire1201]

Thanks for the advice T2C! More inline


The bullet was definitely pressed into the resized brass crooked. I have had this happen, even when I was careful to set the bullet on the brass straight before seating the bullet.

Did you set the die to touch the shell plate before adjusting the seating stem? This will support more of the case wall before the bullet is seated.
This is the part that confused me in the Lee instructions that came with the dies. The instructions said to screw in the die until it touches the shell plate, then BACKUP 3 turns (unless I read it wrong). So when the bullets seat in the die, there's a sizeable section of the shell exposed between the die and the shell plate. The seating die also appears to have some kind of roller crimp, since the belled case mouse gets crimped after I seat the bullet, and I can see small amount of brass shavings around the case mouth. Is this normal?



The seating stem should match the bullet profile as well. Is the seating stem for a round nose bullet? If the seating stem and bullet profile do not match, the bullet can cant and enter the case mouth out of alignment while seating.
How can I tell whether the seating stem matches the bullet profile? The bullet I'm using is JHP though the seating stem appears to be "universal" or otherwise unspecified.



Will the cartridges that have the bulge pass the plunk test in your barrel? You want to remove the barrel from the pistol to perform the test. The cartridge should easily drop into the barrel chamber, then fall out when you tilt the barrel over. If they pass the plunk test and everything else is done properly, i.e. correct powder, reasonable charge weight, .002" crimp, etc., the cartridges should be safe to fire.
Yep, the cartridge plunks into the chamber just fine and comes out easily when I tilt the barrel over, and I stick to the reloading manual starting with the least charge. As far as I can tell, everything I in order except for this uneven seating.



I check suspect cartridges with a loaded cartridge gauge like this one http://www.midwayusa.com/product/888465/le-wilson-max-cartridge-gage-9mm-luger?cm_vc=ProductFinding and recommend it to anyone who reloads pistol ammunition.
I wasn't aware Wilson makes a 9mm gauge, I'll be sure to look into that. I really like the Sheridan gauges I use for 300blk and 223, kind of wish Sheridan come out with a 9mm gauge...

[Skyfire1201]

Thank you TexasGunhand! CIL

Try belling the case a little more so you can start the bullet straight by hand before pressing. Take a little more time doing this and your problem will go away. Remember to only crimp enough to remove the belling from the loaded round.
I tried belling the case more, though it only seem to make the mouth wider instead of deeper, and past a certain point the case won't even go into the seating die since it's now too wide :( Are there dies that works better (deeper, not necessarily wider belling) in this regard?



I use the wilson pistol max gauge to check the brass after resizeing AND after loading the round to check to make sure the brass is good to go before doing any further work to it,really helpfull when you use range P/U brass. If it doesnt pass, in the recycling bin it goes,i dont chance it. Since doing it this way i have never had a problem at the range with FTF or FTE. If you want your rounds perfect it takes alot of time to reload them.

Dont be scared to load a dummy round,NO powder or primmer. Then pull the bullet to check for shaving or over crimping. Till you feel good about it,you are gona have some wasted products when starting something new,better now then later on down the road. Theres a thread open right now here on bulged 9mm cases,take a look in there also. Altho it is an advanced advice thread to me also on different seating stems,dies and crimp methods. For you i think a little more belling and starting the bullet by hand straight will solve your problem.
I've made a few dummy bullets and none exhibited this problem, could be that in my haste to finish the products, I failed to set the bullet straight in the case before pressing them in. I notice small amount of shaving and "polished brass" after seating the bullet, and the process just feels "rough" compare to when seating rifle bullets using my Forster dies. Is this just a case of "you get what you paid for" with the cheaper Lee dies?



PS,,,I also use lee dies, be sure and take your seating die apart its easy just unscrews,and clean and VERY lightly lube it, mine was very sticky till i did this, couseing uneven seating depths etc. You should really clean all new dies before useing them , then also every once in a while to get the gunk outa them. Also if your useing the lee FCD (Factory crimp die) it says in the instructions to turn it half a turn for a light cimp. I think thats a bit much,i set it at a quarter turn , especially useing bullets such as berrys bullets that aernt a true FMJ. But how much crimp is up to you to decide. Iam beginning to think that just running it into a setup lee FCD without turning the crimp adjustment will remove the belling becouse of the carbide ring in it. But i still give it a little bit of a turn just to make sure, its a trial and error thing.
Gotcha, I'll sure take the dies apart and clean them. Any other tips on how to make them "smoother"?

[texasgunhand]

The part about backing the die out three turns keeps it from crimping,once your done seating you can screw the die down and crimp with it also. If doing it this way the brass needs to be pretty close to the same length.
This is why i use the FCD instead , the brass lengths dont matter as much with it.

Iam pretty sure the seating stem is more universal than the higher price dies. But i cant see why it wont work. I dont need to bell so much that it wont fit in the seating die,so thats not it. You probably just need to slow down a bit and make sure the round is started straight.

Theres a lot of lee bashing and they do make better dies, but so far mine have worked fine especially for making plinker ammo or bulk in general. Iam not trying to shoot 500 yards. My .223 is iron sights so theres no sense trying to hit a fly at 1000 yards with it. Mostly just shooting 100 yards with iron sights.
Sense your not trying to make match ammo your dies will be fine , it just takes some tinkering to figure it out.

The dies will smooth out with use like anything else. I tryed to go to fast at first which lead to mistakes also. Now i load fifty or so at a time and do the brass prep. before so all i have to do is bell and load,this helps alot time wise when reloading,i just make bags of F/C,win blazer etc ready to bell and load, separating your brass into brands helps alot. Your seating depths dont vary so much if you keep your brass separated. When i load mixed range brass for plinkers you will definitely get seating depth differences if your trying to seat all at the same COAL.

One thing that helped out alot is when i seat i go slow till the press is extended all the way down. Going fast made seating depth a little all over the place with the cam over. I dont know if this helps but when seating the bullet i hardly feel it go in. Cleaning the seating die when it was new made a lot of difference it seemed to be sticking a bit but after cleaning even the finest adjustment makes a difference now.

PS, belling only makes the mouth wider not deeper,you can adjust your dies up or down like rifle dies, i set mine up per lee instructions. Remember the crimp doesnt hold the bullet in the case , the neck tension does. And you need neck tension to be good you DONT want bullet set back in 9mm that is a bad thing becouse the deeper the bullet the more the pressure. Do a little reading on this. You should be able to push the bullet down on your table HARD and it shouldnt set back, if it does thats not good. Lee dies normaly have good tension and seem to over work the brass a little more than other brands so i doubt that will be a problem.

I dont have the experience the other guys here do,iam only loading pistol now,when i get it down ill move to rifle etc. I like to master one thing before moving on. Like i said you can adjust the dies up or down,but i dont yet,i keep the neck tension as much as i can get to prevent set back. Make sure you brass isnt nicked up around the mouth after resizing and scratching you bullets up. I do the same work on my once fired as my rifle brass trimming to one length and deburring , most people dont, and i dont spend that kinda time on range P/U plinker brass. The wilson case gauge makes checking fast and easy instead of measuring evry round with calipers. Most people dont even do that but i at least use the guage on all rounds to check them to make sure there worth messing with.

[bigedp51]

The solution is simple, use a Lyman type M die, the Lyman patent ran out and now many other die manufactures are copying the design.

Below the Lyman type M die expander.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/mtype_zpsd7a1881f.jpg

The Lyman type M die was designed for case bullets but it worked so well they were used for jacketed pullets.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/bulletseatingflaresands_zps1aff9c57.jpg

Below Redding pistol dies using the type M die in the center, I have these for my .40 Glock and .44 Magnum.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/typeM_zpsab079dc2.jpg

I even use them when loading my .223/5.56 ammunition to reduce neck runout when seating bullets.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Various3_zpsi85oz4p6.png

Advice, always seat and crimp in two separate operations, do not over resize the case and you will prevent the "wasp waisted" look of your cases.

[texasgunhand]

So do all the redding dies have type m expander technology? Or when buying them do you have to look for a die marked type m?

Also my question on over resizing, do you just back the die out till the brass isnt resized enough to fit in the chamber gauge. Then screw it in till it fits the chamber gauge? If so how do you know if the neck tension is tight enough? Setback scares me in 9mm. I reload for multiple pistols so i use the chamber gauge instead of pulling barrels.

Or is it if its resized enough to use,neck tension is not an issue? Mine are set up per instructions die touch shell plate which seems like its over resizing the crap outa them,but i was worried if i back the die out to not oversize i would lose neck tension.

I bought the hornady headspace tool you recommend to do the min.rifle shoulder setback,why push the shoulder back more than you need,i get that becouse the neck will be resized no matter what i roll the shoulder back to.

But with a taper case such as 9mm , it seems if i dont resize all the way iam going to lose neck tension is what iam getting at. But setting up the dies per instructions and dropping them in the wilson gauge you can see theres to much taper. It seems way overworked you can see the rim of the case could be expanded more to to catch the rim in the gauge that it headspaces off of, the brass seems inside the headspce rim.

So if i set it up were i cant see the brass around the headspace rim and it still slides in and out of the gauge like its supposed to will my neck tension still be good?

[bigedp51]

texasgunhand

There are no special marking on the die boxes or dies, and I didn't know these had the type M die expander until I cleaned the dies for first use.

Look at a box of factory loaded ammunition and you will see the new ammunition is not wasp waisted. Meaning just adjust the die to give enough neck tension without over resizing the case.

The pistol case gauges represent minimum chamber dimensions to insure the case will fit in any chamber in diameter and length. Your chamber is the perfect "gauge" for your reloaded rounds, and when loading for more than one pistol these type pistol gauges come in handy making sure the ammo will fit every chamber.

These gauges will not check your neck tension and you will need to check this yourself, and they can vary by brand of case and case wall thickness. And remember that a taper crimp has more to do with streamlining the case mouth for chambering and NOT gripping the bullet.

[texasgunhand]

Thanks for the reply,i will do some experiments in resizing.
I will also look into the type m die,seems like a good thing,i will see if i can find them,probably have to order them. Only dies around here are lee,rcbs and hornady.

[T2C]

Once Big Ed joined the conversation, I just sat back and watched. He has a good deal of technical knowledge about reloading.

I had an issue with RL550B reloads not feeding in my Kahr 9mm due to the tight chamber tolerance. The reloads would feed in everything else. For some time I kept once fired Kahr brass separate from all other brass. I purchased a small base 9mm resizing die from EGW, which was marked Lee Precision, and cartridges would feed in all my pistols. I noticed more of the Wasp shape in the middle of resized brass when I used the SB die, but reloading was not an issue with the bullets I used at the time.


After I sold the Kahr 9mm I continued to use the SB die. Once I tried reloading with different bullets, I started having issues like Skyfire1201 is having. One thing that helped somewhat was switching back to the Dillon resizing die and adjusting it a little differently than I did in the past. First I set up my RL550B by adjusting the resizing die until it touched the shell plate per Dillon's instructions. Then I backed it out 1/8 of a turn at a time until resized brass would not fall into a loaded cartridge gauge. Then I adjusted it down 1/8 of a turn at a time until the brass would fall into the gauge and locked the resizing die at that setting. It seemed to help, but did not work 100% of the time.

Station 2 on the Dillon press both bells the case mouth and drops the powder charge. I doubt the resizing die in the picture in Big Ed's post will work on station 2 on my press. I am already getting .005 bell on station 2 and I think any more will overwork the brass, so I am going to try the Redding M seating die to fully support the sides of the case while the bullet is being seated.

[texasgunhand]

Thanks t2c for your input also,the way you described setting up the die was exactly the way i was thinking.
Let us know if you find the type m die i would like to try one also,especially in 9mm, i think .45 wont be such a PITA as the 9.but i could be wrong..lol

[T2C]

Thanks t2c for your input also,the way you described setting up the die was exactly the way i was thinking.
Let us know if you find the type m die i would like to try one also,especially in 9mm, i think .45 wont be such a PITA as the 9.but i could be wrong..lol


The strange thing is that I have never had this issue loading .45 ACP or .40 S&W or .38 Special, it's always been 9mm.

[steyrman13]

The strange thing is that I have never had this issue loading .45 ACP or .40 S&W or .38 Special, it's always been 9mm.

Could it be because 9mm is a taper walled cases and not straight walled like the others you mention?

[markm]

Could it be because 9mm is a taper walled cases and not straight walled like the others you mention?

No. I've had this happen really badly on .45 acp with Hollow points with very flat bases.

[bigedp51]

It is caused by several problems and one is "how much" the case is made smaller in diameter when sized, meaning the "effort" required to push the bullet into the "tight" case.

The other problem is the seater dies ability to hold the bullet in alignment with the case itself. And if the bullet can "tilt" in the seater plug.

Sorry for below, the only illustration I have is for a rifle bullet, but it shows how the bullet can tilt and be misaligned with the case.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/seater_zpsmq0i0wur.gif

And the step in the type M die allows the bullet to enter the case mouth straight and aligned with the case.

And this can happen with straight walled cases and carbide dies with the short carbide ring when the case is over resized. Meaning shoved too far into the die.

[vicious_cb]

Once Big Ed joined the conversation, I just sat back and watched. He has a good deal of technical knowledge about reloading.

I had an issue with RL550B reloads not feeding in my Kahr 9mm due to the tight chamber tolerance. The reloads would feed in everything else. For some time I kept once fired Kahr brass separate from all other brass. I purchased a small base 9mm resizing die from EGW, which was marked Lee Precision, and cartridges would feed in all my pistols. I noticed more of the Wasp shape in the middle of resized brass when I used the SB die, but reloading was not an issue with the bullets I used at the time.


After I sold the Kahr 9mm I continued to use the SB die. Once I tried reloading with different bullets, I started having issues like Skyfire1201 is having. One thing that helped somewhat was switching back to the Dillon resizing die and adjusting it a little differently than I did in the past. First I set up my RL550B by adjusting the resizing die until it touched the shell plate per Dillon's instructions. Then I backed it out 1/8 of a turn at a time until resized brass would not fall into a loaded cartridge gauge. Then I adjusted it down 1/8 of a turn at a time until the brass would fall into the gauge and locked the resizing die at that setting. It seemed to help, but did not work 100% of the time.

Station 2 on the Dillon press both bells the case mouth and drops the powder charge. I doubt the resizing die in the picture in Big Ed's post will work on station 2 on my press. I am already getting .005 bell on station 2 and I think any more will overwork the brass, so I am going to try the Redding M seating die to fully support the sides of the case while the bullet is being seated.

I also have the 550B, one thing I noticed when using mixed brass is that the belling/powder throwing die does not bell the case mouth to the same diameter every time due to the variances in case thickness and case length for each manufacturer.

[markm]

I'd like to try the M die. I remember reading about it a while back on Accurateshooter. I just dread the thought of yet another die, when I don't even like reloading pistol ammo.

[bigedp51]

I'd like to try the M die. I remember reading about it a while back on Accurateshooter. I just dread the thought of yet another die, when I don't even like reloading pistol ammo.

markm

You will not be adding a extra step, you are just buying a newer die that has copied the Lyman type M design expander for your handguns. I only have two of these new die types and they work MUCH better than the older designs.

[texasgunhand]

Iam way out my league with you guys,but last night i did some experiments seating some 9mm.
I set the die touching the shellplate , over working the brass. Making the problem of bulging even worse.
Only belling about .003 BUT making sure the bullet was started straight as the eye could get it and seating it slowly. I didnt have one bulged case out 50 they looked better than the the FC i had laying on the bench.

Put about .001 crimp on it with the FCD but looked to me like i didnt even need to do that.(berry bullets) were over crimpings way easy.

Made it all the way to the gate of the fireing range (40 mile drive btw) when my DR. called and told me to go to the hospital immediately after 12 hours it went from your going to die of kidney failure to just go home theres not really a problem,exept the 5000 bucks some bad DR. advise is gona cost me. Should have stayed at the range.lol iam going tomorrow dead or alive.

I cant decided if when i grow up i wana be a DR. Or join the mob not sure which ones the biggest money making racket.

[T2C]

..................I cant decided if when i grow up i wana be a DR. Or join the mob not sure which ones the biggest money making racket.

If you don't mind being involved in criminal activity, there is a lot more money to be made in politics.

[texasgunhand]

Iam way out my league with you guys,but last night i did some experiments seating some 9mm.
I set the die touching the shellplate , over working the brass. Making the problem of bulging even worse.
Only belling about .003 BUT making sure the bullet was started straight as the eye could get it and seating it slowly. I didnt have one bulged case out 50 they looked better than the the FC i had laying on the bench.

Put about .001 crimp on it with the FCD but looked to me like i didnt even need to do that.(berry bullets) were over crimpings way easy.

Made it all the way to the gate of the fireing range (40 mile drive btw) when my DR. called and told me to go to the hospital immediately after 12 hours it went from your going to die of kidney failure to just go home theres not really a problem,exept the 5000 bucks some bad DR. advise is gona cost me. Should have stayed at the range.lol iam going tomorrow dead or alive.

I cant decided if when i grow up i wana be a DR. Or join the mob not sure which ones the biggest money making racket.


This setup turned out to be the most accurate ammo ive ever fired,iam pretty sure it was from having really no crimp at all..WOW i was amazed please dont use my recipe becouse the internet can be a dangerous place to get reload data of course.

4.2gr of win231 with cases matched in length so so. A 124 gr berry bullet with the .001 crimp at 1.150 and cci primers. First 2 shots in the bullseye the size of a quarter, touching,freehanded at 15 yrds,next 10 no more than an inche from the bullseye all the way around it 4 bullseyes total. Not Olympic class by any meens,but out of a bone stock glock 19 not bad. I now see a little bit better on how over crimping can effect accuracy as you guys have stated. You sure cant get ammo for what it cost me to reload these that act like that.

Only wishing i had a crony to see how fast there moving seemed a little hot but 4.4 gr is max at 1.150 so 4.2 shouldnt be to hot iam guessing. Fired some Federal 115gr champion after to see , it seemed a little hotter than mine,kinda hard to tell dropping from 124 to 115 though like that though.

PS, T2C i forgot about politicians,my bad...lol

[Skyfire1201]

I finally found the root cause of my problem (well, at least part of it). The Forster co-ax press has this nifty feature: instead of using standard shell holders, it uses a shell holder that has jaws of two sizes, large and small. For my 223 and 300blk loads I use the S jaw, and without consulting the manual I thought 9mm will require the L jaw so I changed to that setup. Turns out although the jawed shell holder appears to hold the 9mm shell tightly, when it enters the die it can actually wobble a bit. So any slight off center seating of the bullet gets exaggerated and caused most of my crooked looking reloads. I fixed this and the problem has mostly gone away, though still not quite like factory loads.

The Type M expander is super interesting, and it makes sense that'll address the wasp problem. Does Dillon make a powder through expander die with this shaped expander though? I'm only doing the load development on the Forster single stage, and once I work out the right formula I'll switch to the Dillon for mass production.