View Full Version : Wa State efile form 1 disapproved
Hey all,
I submitted three efile form 1's via my trust in March.
Yesterday I received via my linked email disapproval notices. The stated reason is in Wa. State you cannot manufacturer an SBR.
A friend of mine went the paper route with his trust for an SBR and received it.
Has anyone else had this happen to them?
Any input is appreciated.
There's a big thread in the WAHTF on ARFCOM discussing it.
Link Big? I am not a member on ARFCOM.
Thanks
Shot you a PM. I don't think they like links to that site on here very much. :cool:
No worries and thank you for the info. I'll just wait and watch.
Post a screen shot of the disapproval and reason? I bet the ARFCOM guys would love to see it.
There are already pictures.
-john
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It has to do with the language contained within the RCW. Except the BATF has already approved quite a few Form 1 applications. This should be fun to watch.
'Cept for those of us involved. :-(
-john
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I wouldn't say it's going to be fun to watch. Thousands of Wa. State residents are having their rights messed with because of unclear language in the bill.
It's nothing to nash ones teeth about though. It's less ranting and raving and more take a breath and let my congress critters figure this out. Crucifying the guy who disapproved me wont help either (plenty of ARFCOMer's are going this route).
Refund my three stamps? Awesome, I'll grab a can or two and wait for things to get sorted out.
I have been following the ARFCOM and Wa.guns threads. The rep that introduced this bill is on it but there is no time line. I recently found out that Rainier Arms is willing to Form 4 any lowers people want to registers. They will engrave the needed information but will hold onto the lower until the Form 4 clears. I've got an email out. I might go that route with a few more lowers since 41p has been pushed back. With politics, there is no for sure time frame.
How is Rainier Arms going to Form 4 someone else's lower? There is no such thing as an SBR lower. Are people going to send their uppers in to do this?
I have been following the ARFCOM and Wa.guns threads. The rep that introduced this bill is on it but there is no time line. I recently found out that Rainier Arms is willing to Form 4 any lowers people want to registers. They will engrave the needed information but will hold onto the lower until the Form 4 clears. I've got an email out. I might go that route with a few more lowers since 41p has been pushed back. With politics, there is no for sure time frame.
Odd.
Purchased a BCM SBR lower from G&R.
Transferred to my dealer, populated the F4 with my final configuration specifications.
Approved F4 came back in 97 days.
No idea. I have not received an answer yet. I'm guessing, since the lowers are being disapproved they aren't SBR's yet they are just lowers. They will Form 4 your lower, hold onto it until it clears then transfer it to you. I do not know how they are obtaining people's lowers.
I'm thinking this is similar to when you buy an SBR and have it transfered to an FFL then they will transfer it to you when the paperwork clears.
No idea about uppers Iraqgunz, I'm not worried about my uppers.
JML that makes sense since you did not manufacturer the SBR you just purchased it and had it transfered to you. That's legal. Manufacturing one is not though, according to someone at the Wa. State DOL and the ATF.
Edit to add; this is just what I have read and my understanding. I am in no way saying this is what's going on. Pure speculation on my part.
I'm curious as well, but my guess is you have to buy/supply the remaining parts to finish a SBR.
-john
Unless you buy one from an FFL that can legally manufacture them in Wa. State? That's how I'm thinking it works.
They make it, you buy it from them. I think what Rainier is doing (as I understand it, until I get word back from them) how they get your lower to make it into an SBR is lost to me.
I'll update if I get any comm'comm's back from them.
When was that? Because it was being done a few years back and then the BATFE clarified that it cannot happen. Noveske and Spike's were doing a similar deal. But since an Form 1 needs to have OAL, barrel length, etc... on there it cannot be done. A lower doesn't meet the definition of an SBR which is why if you remove the short upper and sell it off, the lower becomes a Title I weapon again if you add a 14.5 (permed)+ upper on it.
Odd.
Purchased a BCM SBR lower from G&R.
Transferred to my dealer, populated the F4 with my final configuration specifications.
Approved F4 came back in 97 days.
A lower doesn't meet the definition of an SBR which is why if you remove the short upper and sell it off, the lower becomes a Title I weapon again if you add a 14.5 (permed)+ upper on it.
And you can also sell that F1 lower as a GCA firearm, or cross state lines without a 5320.20. At that point it's just a lower with some extra engraving.
When was that? Because it was being done a few years back and then the BATFE clarified that it cannot happen. Noveske and Spike's were doing a similar deal. But since an Form 1 needs to have OAL, barrel length, etc... on there it cannot be done. A lower doesn't meet the definition of an SBR which is why if you remove the short upper and sell it off, the lower becomes a Title I weapon again if you add a 14.5 (permed)+ upper on it.
F4 mailed Dec 2010 and approved Mar 2011.
Correct. So maybe I am missing something as to how they are going to accomplish this.
And you can also sell that F1 lower as a GCA firearm, or cross state lines without a 5320.20. At that point it's just a lower with some extra engraving.
Correct. So maybe I am missing something as to how they are going to accomplish this.
No idea. You and I have the same understanding on this. An SBR is only an SBR when it meets the definition of a short barreled rifle, which means it needs a short barrel.
Which is why I'm not sure how companies sell things like this (http://www.capitolarmory.com/nfa-c4-billet-stripped-ar15-sbr-lower-receiver.html) without it being a complete firearm. I know that used to be allowed, but thought it changed years ago.
Yeah, we discussed this in another group where I am a member. I want to email them and see how they respond, because I am really curious to know.
No idea. You and I have the same understanding on this. An SBR is only an SBR when it meets the definition of a short barreled rifle, which means it needs a short barrel.
Which is why I'm not sure how companies sell things like this (http://www.capitolarmory.com/nfa-c4-billet-stripped-ar15-sbr-lower-receiver.html) without it being a complete firearm. I know that used to be allowed, but thought it changed years ago.
I sent another email and got some responses.
Here they are for anyone who wants to read them:
1st email
From: Luke
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2015 12:41 PM
To: sales@rainierarms.com
Subject: Wa. State SBR
Good afternoon,
With the recent decision by the ATF to disapprove peoples SBR request I have been searching for a solution. Over the last week I have learned that the original Senator who introduced the bill is working on a solution but with politics there is no timeline. I did read in a Reddit thread that Rainier Arms was willing to Form 4 peoples lowers for them. Is this true? If so what would it cost? What is the probable time frame? Would this service be available if the lowers are already engraved?
Thank you
Luke
1st reply email
From: sales@rainierarms.com
To: Luke
Subject: RE: Wa. State SBR
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 11:23:29 -0700
Luke,
We are charging $125.00 to convert your firearm into a SBR and form 4 it back to you. We will need your complete firearm and hold it until the approved form 4 comes in
If your lower is already engraved we would engrave the lower again with our info.
Michael Hwang - O.M.
Rainier Arms, LLC - "Taking the AR15 to new Heights™"
2504 Auburn Way N. Auburn, WA 98002
P.253.218.2999 ext 202 / F.253.218.2998
www.RainierArms.com
2nd email
From: Luke
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 12:11 PM
To: Rainier Arms - Michael Hwang
Subject: RE: Wa. State SBR
Michael
Thank you for the email. So that's 125 plus the tax stamp? Also, would you be able to SBR a Draco AK pistol? How long of a wait are we looking at? Does Rainier Arms have registered SBR lowers I could purchase as well?
Lots of people are wondering how Rainier Arms is able to do this. So can you line out the process for me? Would you receive my firearm (lower) and transfer it to Rainier Arms possession then convert it, register it and wait for the stamp then transfer it back to me (with a transfer fee)?
Thank you for the information!
Luke
2nd reply email
From: sales@rainierarms.com
To: Luke
Subject: RE: Wa. State SBR
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 14:29:32 -0700
Hi Luke,
We are class 3 dealer, in order for us to SBR your rifle for you, we would need to be the manufacturer of the rifle. Hence the reason why we would need to engrave it with our info.
As far as the AK, yes we can, we just need you to provide all of the proper components for the conversion into an SBR.
Please be advised the $125 fee does not include gunsmithing fees (if any).
Stripped lowers are not registered as SBR, that is only done after it is built up to become and SBR.
Please be advised we would need the complete firearm (not just the lower) in order for us to begin the SBR process for the paperwork.
Thank you
Mey
Rainier Arms, LLC - "Taking the AR15 to new Heights™"
2504 Auburn Way N. Auburn, WA 98002
P 253.218.2999 / F 253.218.2998
3rd email
From: Luke
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 4:22 PM
To: Rainier Arms - Mey
Subject: RE: Wa. State SBR
Mey,
Thank you for the reply. So if I understand this correctly.
I would need to provide you with a complete lower. You would need to mate it to an upper to make a complete firearm. You can do the SBR AK I would just need to supply the parts to convert it (buttstock and attachment method). The 125 fee would not include any gunsmithing.
So there is a 125 dollar fee not including any gunsmithing. What about the tax stamp? Would this also need to be paid or is that covered? If Rainier Arms is making a complete rifle that would mean to me that to transfer it back to me I would have to buy the upper that comes with it? What is the time frame we are looking at for a Form 4?
Thank you
3rd reply email
The tax stamp would be another check for $200 written out to the BATFE. The time fram for the form 4 is 6-12 months.
Sony
Rainier Arms, LLC - "Taking the AR15 to New Heights"
2504 Auburn Way N. Auburn, WA 98002
P 253.218.2999 / F 253.218.2998
Ok so what I am guessing is;
You have to send them the completed rifle (Upper/Lower), they will engrave it and Form 4 it. The process will cost 125 plus any gunsmithing that needs to be done. Then wait 6 to 12 months after paying the SBR fee to the BATFE and then they will transfer it back to you. I don't know what happens to the upper you place on it when you send it. I think I am going to stop sending them emails. It's confusing to get different responses from different people but still have questions unanswered. If anyone from Rainier Arms is on the forum please PM me.
No idea. You and I have the same understanding on this. An SBR is only an SBR when it meets the definition of a short barreled rifle, which means it needs a short barrel.
Which is why I'm not sure how companies sell things like this (http://www.capitolarmory.com/nfa-c4-billet-stripped-ar15-sbr-lower-receiver.html) without it being a complete firearm. I know that used to be allowed, but thought it changed years ago.
Just like selling any other completed ar lower, it does not mater if it has LPK in it or not, if it has all the machining done on it, and it has a SN, its legal to sell, Capitol Armory tells you in the FAQ section under that part, you have to do a form4 for it, i know that price does not include the stamp, and they tell you what caliber it is and what barrel length its registered with. i dont see the problem, other then its over priced. I dont see it being worth 100$ more then a normal Billet lower, a bit more because they have some paper work to deal with but thats not worth 100$, and they should have templates built on the eforms site, and be able to do the mfg form right quick.
just my 2 cents.
Just like selling any other completed ar lower, it does not mater if it has LPK in it or not, if it has all the machining done on it, and it has a SN, its legal to sell, Capitol Armory tells you in the FAQ section under that part, you have to do a form4 for it, i know that price does not include the stamp, and they tell you what caliber it is and what barrel length its registered with. i dont see the problem, other then its over priced. I dont see it being worth 100$ more then a normal Billet lower, a bit more because they have some paper work to deal with but thats not worth 100$, and they should have templates built on the eforms site, and be able to do the mfg form right quick.
just my 2 cents.
The problem is they're selling an NFA item registered with a certain caliber and barrel length. But, that's not what you're receiving. It's not an SBR, which is what the F4 will say it is, without the upper.
I was in their shop this week. Really wish I'd remembered to ask them about it.
The problem is they're selling an NFA item registered with a certain caliber and barrel length. But, that's not what you're receiving. It's not an SBR, which is what the F4 will say it is, without the upper.
I was in their shop this week. Really wish I'd remembered to ask them about it.
If that lower, is marked as and SBR, and is on the NFA registry, its an SBR, thats why you need a form4 to get it.
I understand what you are saying, and once the lower is transferred to you, just notify the BAFT-E of any changes you make, caliber/barrel length. If you dont want one in the two options they have 223/10" 300blk/8" (IIRC) ask if they will register it in another combo, or just get a lower and do it on a form1.
To my understanding, and I could be wrong, its the lower in AR-15's that are registered for SBR, not the uppers, but I could just be looking at it wrong.
To my understanding, and I could be wrong, its the lower in AR-15's that are registered for SBR, not the uppers, but I could just be looking at it wrong.
The serial number is what's registered. And yes, on an AR, that's the lower.
However, that "registered" lower can be sold as a GCA firearm with no ATF involvement, whether it's stripped, built, or has a barrel >16" attached. You don't have to notify the ATF that you've configured it so that's it's not under the purview of the NFA, or that you've sold it as a GCA firearm.
Whether it's registered or not, it's only an SBR (and thus an NFA item) when a short upper is attached...and that's the only way to sell it as an NFA item on a Form 4.
It's real simple. You need to send them all the parts to complete the SBR. They are going to "build" it (probably on a Form 2) and file the paperwork. Then they will need to do a Form 4 and transfer it to you in it's completed state. Once completed it will shipped out.
They realize as most of us do, that in order to be an SBR it must have an upper as well with all of the info.
Not sure where you are getting 6-12 months wait from. It's quite a bit less from what I am seeing.
I sent another email and got some responses.
Here they are for anyone who wants to read them:
Ok so what I am guessing is;
You have to send them the completed rifle (Upper/Lower), they will engrave it and Form 4 it. The process will cost 125 plus any gunsmithing that needs to be done. Then wait 6 to 12 months after paying the SBR fee to the BATFE and then they will transfer it back to you. I don't know what happens to the upper you place on it when you send it. I think I am going to stop sending them emails. It's confusing to get different responses from different people but still have questions unanswered. If anyone from Rainier Arms is on the forum please PM me.
The problem is that what they are doing is wrong. An SBR needs to be complete in order to be an SBR.
Just like selling any other completed ar lower, it does not mater if it has LPK in it or not, if it has all the machining done on it, and it has a SN, its legal to sell, Capitol Armory tells you in the FAQ section under that part, you have to do a form4 for it, i know that price does not include the stamp, and they tell you what caliber it is and what barrel length its registered with. i dont see the problem, other then its over priced. I dont see it being worth 100$ more then a normal Billet lower, a bit more because they have some paper work to deal with but thats not worth 100$, and they should have templates built on the eforms site, and be able to do the mfg form right quick.
just my 2 cents.
There is no such thing as an SBR lower. There is also no need to notify the BATFE of anything unless it is a PERMANENT change (permanent hasn't been defined as far as I know).
There would be no Form 1 involved because they are an SOT among other things. They would need to do a Form 2. And then the Form 4 to transfer it to you.
If that lower, is marked as and SBR, and is on the NFA registry, its an SBR, thats why you need a form4 to get it.
I understand what you are saying, and once the lower is transferred to you, just notify the BAFT-E of any changes you make, caliber/barrel length. If you dont want one in the two options they have 223/10" 300blk/8" (IIRC) ask if they will register it in another combo, or just get a lower and do it on a form1.
To my understanding, and I could be wrong, its the lower in AR-15's that are registered for SBR, not the uppers, but I could just be looking at it wrong.
There is a difference to submitting a Form 1 for a lower and actually assembling an SBR. Individuals complete Form 1s all the time prior to having the upper. The barrel length, caliber, OAL, etc have to be entered in the Form 1 even though the gun is not complete yet. Once the individual gets the approval, they purchase a short upper, attach it to the approved lower, and now they have an SBR. Somewhere in the process, prior to assembly, they have the lower engraved with their info.
I presume a company could submit the paperwork for a lower like an individual would. Apparently it's a Form 2 for an SOT. As it was pointed out already, how can they transfer just a lower to an individual on a Form 4 which is used for compete SBRs?
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but it is illegal for an individual who is not an SOT to assemble all of the parts to make an SBR prior to having the stamp. If Ranier requires a complete firearm, the only legal way to do it is to send a 16" or longer upper. If they are suggesting to send all the parts including an upper < 16", they are asking the customer to break the law.
If they are suggesting to send all the parts including an upper < 16", they are asking the customer to break the law.
Except that I could have a <16" upper sitting here on an AR pistol, and could send that to them. :cool:
Or order one and have it shipped directly to them.
I applaud the idea of selling an approved lower, as it helps people out in some instances like this one...it just doesn't seem to meet the letter of the law.
That is correct, but he seemed to be talking about an AR rifle and AK pistol. Ranier's e-mails are vague and should be clearer on the topic.
Iraq - the 6 - 12 months was what they quoted me. I can forward you the emails if you want.
I might take them up on this with my Draco pistol. It's complete and needs nothing else than the parts needed to make it an SBR (ACE folding stock adapter)
If you check the thread on ARFCOMM and WaGuns there is actually some pertinent info about what our Rep is trying to accomplish. Not fun to go through for all of us who are effected by this but hopefully a learning experience to those watching and a warning to those who are trying to repeal idiotic gun laws. Make your laws plain to interpret and leave nothing to the imagination of .gov employees, federal or otherwise.
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