View Full Version : Boresight Solutions exposé of Salient arms
i haven't seen any discussion about the salient arms exposé by boresight solutions.
for those who haven't seen, boresight solutions posted a pretty damning set of pictures on his facebook page detailing the alleged shoddy work of salient arms.
is salient arms really that bad? seems pretty outrageous to charge people that much and then do such poor work.
Have a link for us to follow?
Have a link for us to follow?
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Boresight-Solutions-LLC/112698825448285
that is the boresight solutions Facebook page. there's no easy way to link the actual album, but just find the word salient on the Facebook page and the album should follow.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=963413243710168&id=112698825448285&substory_index=0
I think this is the first picture in the album and the opening remarks.
Too late..
what's that mean
Defaultmp3
06-05-15, 21:06
So much fail in one photo.
Yet another Salient POS thru my shop to fix. I actually won't touch them anymore, but this one belongs to a good customer, LEO, and it's his backup gun, so I made an exception.
In addition to an unreliable ignition system (gutted all their parts and replaced with Apex Tactical kit), replaced the trigger bar they ruined, replaced the trigger shoe they left a bunch of ragged holes in for whatever reason, fixed thumb safety that was so loose it would drift on and off in the holster, found their typical mag release scallop that leaves the back of the mag release exposed and unsupported and a snag hazard, striker block plunger spring that had been cut instead of being replaced with one the proper length but different poundage, and a rear sight that's not only way too narrow for the dovetail, but leaves the plunger spring cap exposed on that side...and the set screw above it has all that red loctite because...wait for it...the screw sits over the plastic cap (doesn't screw against metal...screws against a spring loaded plastic cap!) and the loctite is to keep it from going INTO the striker block cavity and locking up the gun.
The gun came in with unreliable Salient internals and some factory parts they ruined. I gutted it and replaced everything they touched with new factory parts and an Apex Tactical kit. Apex Tactical is very much good to go.
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10985272_963413243710168_8056862379748623456_n.jpg?oh=14a1fcf39ba6f9ad97a82325bac7c5a1&oe=55C4616F
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11059965_963418877042938_5548854457208068018_n.jpg?oh=f16467e133eedd09e4c1dd77d20c3ff2&oe=560893A4
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10458925_963418837042942_2441371178822785167_n.jpg?oh=f643b1459510730510b4670ff5e18d6e&oe=5601AABE
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11255841_963418740376285_5667878698109561737_n.jpg?oh=52a6734f06bed0181bf148652d748908&oe=56042589
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1908126_963418473709645_2262767020225576267_n.jpg?oh=961256f6372f49116278a6585d50a245&oe=56081D7D
what's that mean
It means I put links up...but I was too late as you had already done it, so I deleted.
BufordTJustice
06-06-15, 00:38
I've been hearing this via PM for a while. I wonder how many corners are being cut on their unicorn tears AR builds....
MountainRaven
06-06-15, 01:55
I had no idea Jason Falla's reputation was for sale.
I had no idea Jason Falla's reputation was for sale.
I've seen a lot of people using these. Pat Mac would be another IIRC.
I have mixed feelings about Salient and Zev Glocks. On one hand they are kinda easy on the eye but they do not give me the same feeling as a NightHawk 1911. It's like a Honda Civic that has the works vs a Lamborghini. Most of the individuals I know that have a Salient are so afraid to even wear them in a holster in fear of marking the sacred surface, let alone shoot it. I am not surprised by the pictures, they are a brand and prob hire young inexperienced individuals that have a week being trained before slapping a few codes in the computer for the milling switching out a few of your OEM parts for the hand of Christ and sending it back to you 2k later. It's still a Glock only now instead of a war horse it's a show gun.
MountainRaven
06-06-15, 12:38
I've seen a lot of people using these. Pat Mac would be another IIRC.
Kyle Lamb is a third (which I only remembered upon seeing VTAC listed as an affiliate on BoreSight's website).
I have mixed feelings about Salient and Zev Glocks. On one hand they are kinda easy on the eye but they do not give me the same feeling as a NightHawk 1911. It's like a Honda Civic that has the works vs a Lamborghini. Most of the individuals I know that have a Salient are so afraid to even wear them in a holster in fear of marking the sacred surface, let alone shoot it. I am not surprised by the pictures, they are a brand and prob hire young inexperienced individuals that have a week being trained before slapping a few codes in the computer for the milling switching out a few of your OEM parts for the hand of Christ and sending it back to you 2k later. It's still a Glock only now instead of a war horse it's a show gun.
I think of the Salient as not so much a fancified Honda as a Toyota Tacoma with a bunch of off-road mods: It's not going to be as fast as a Corvette, but 99% of its users are going to spend 99% of their time with it sitting in the garage and the rest of the time they're just going to drive it around town, never really taking it "off-road". Of course, the same is true of someone who buys a Corvette or a Lambo: It's going to spend 99% of its time in the garage and 99% of its buyers are never going to take it to a track or anywhere that they can come even remotely close to pushing the car to its limits (or, more accurately, the driver's limits).
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-06-15, 17:14
These uber-customized plastic service pistols always seemed 1. to miss the point and 2. like polishing a turd. But I am old-fashioned.
Of course, the same is true of someone who buys a Corvette or a Lambo: It's going to spend 99% of its time in the garage and 99% of its buyers are never going to take it to a track or anywhere that they can come even remotely close to pushing the car to its limits (or, more accurately, the driver's limits).
True, I meant more that personally, I would rather have a Lambo than a hooked up Civic. Regardless of their limits or how often I drive them. I do not think one can argue the merits of a quality 1911. Paying 2.5K for a BM custom or similar does not sound crazy, but "check out my 2.5 K G19" that sounds bat shit.
I dunno maybe I too am ol fashion, I doubt that though, I just do not understand the hype. Maybe I should start a company where I buy Taurus or Hi-points then toss unicorn horns and Leprechaun terds into each and sell them for 4K. I will call the company UNILEP. To each their own I suppose.
Greg I do not think that is old fashion, I think that is logical.
These uber-customized plastic service pistols always seemed 1. to miss the point and 2. like polishing a turd. But I am old-fashioned.
Please tell me I'm not the only one who enjoys the following video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KjQk244oW9c
I read somewhere (no link immediately available so we know what it's worth) that the guns the pros get from Salient are really top notch and a cut above what the average joe would get.
In regards to Falla, he used on in a class I took in October. He gave exactly zero shout outs about it. In fact he switched to a different one (non salient glock) during the course (to get away from the RMR is what he said).
Costa on the other hand was all about them (this was late 2012 when they were just starting to make a name for themselves).
I'm with Greg Bell on this, I don't understand the thought process behind taking a polymer frame fighting gun and doing $2k worth of work and beautification to it. My Glocks are stock except for sights and the Vickers slide stop. I spent 4 years in sales though, if you can convince the buyer it's worth it, you'll sell it.
Defaultmp3
06-07-15, 10:25
I'm with Greg Bell on this, I don't understand the thought process behind taking a polymer frame fighting gun and doing $2k worth of work and beautification to it. My Glocks are stock except for sights and the Vickers slide stop. I spent 4 years in sales though, if you can convince the buyer it's worth it, you'll sell it.
Is it really any different from buying a basic 1911 and sending it off to one of the master gunsmiths to do work on it for a couple grand, which used to be the norm in the shooting world?
Is it really any different from buying a basic 1911 and sending it off to one of the master gunsmiths to do work on it for a couple grand, which used to be the norm in the shooting world?
Yes, because it's still not a 1911 lol
I read somewhere (no link immediately available so we know what it's worth) that the guns the pros get from Salient are really top notch and a cut above what the average joe would get.
In regards to Falla, he used on in a class I took in October. He gave exactly zero shout outs about it. In fact he switched to a different one (non salient glock) during the course (to get away from the RMR is what he said).
Costa on the other hand was all about them (this was late 2012 when they were just starting to make a name for themselves).
Look, im not going to call Costa a shill but one has to understand that the guy is a total gear queer. His enthusiasm for new toys is often mistaken as shilling, unfairly so.
Look, im not going to call Costa a shill but one has to understand that the guy is a total gear queer. His enthusiasm for new toys is often mistaken as shilling, unfairly so.
Wasn't seeing Costa use in a video one of the ways many people found out about Boresight in the first place? That's certainly how I first heard of Boresight.
Is it really any different from buying a basic 1911 and sending it off to one of the master gunsmiths to do work on it for a couple grand, which used to be the norm in the shooting world?
That's an apples to oranges comparison. A rattly mil-spec 1911A1 with basic controls, fed a proper diet of quality ammo & lube will run for an entire 3 day class, but your hand might not. Not so with a stock Glock, which will run fine AND you'll be no worse the wear at the end. Further, a dremel and soldering iron will take a stock Glock and make it "race ready" in the right hands. Not so with a 1911, which will require some expertise in gunsmithing, not gun plumbing.
So $2.5K properly spent on a 1911 will net you something that's both significantly improved mechanically and aesthetically pleasing. Spending $2.5K on a Glock will net you a pedestrian pistol that's marginally improved mechanically (arguable at that) and the equivalent of putting $2.45K worth of gold rims and lowering springs on your econobox. It may go around corners a little faster, but it's not really going to impress anyone beyond basic fanboy status.
Wasn't seeing Costa use in a video one of the ways many people found out about Boresight in the first place? That's certainly how I first heard of Boresight.
Shrug.
I do believe Boresight would have grown without Travis and Chris but the publicity sure as shit didnt hurt.
Look, im not going to call Costa a shill but one has to understand that the guy is a total gear queer. His enthusiasm for new toys is often mistaken as shilling, unfairly so.
Fair enough.
However, it's also worth remembering that this was about the time they were starting up so their products may very have been the cats ass. Second, they still had a working website then. If a company in the business of sales can't bother to get a website up (they might now, I haven't paid any attention in some time) what else are they skimping on?
Defaultmp3
06-07-15, 14:09
That's an apples to oranges comparison. A rattly mil-spec 1911A1 with basic controls, fed a proper diet of quality ammo & lube will run for an entire 3 day class, but your hand might not. Not so with a stock Glock, which will run fine AND you'll be no worse the wear at the end. Further, a dremel and soldering iron will take a stock Glock and make it "race ready" in the right hands. Not so with a 1911, which will require some expertise in gunsmithing, not gun plumbing.
So $2.5K properly spent on a 1911 will net you something that's both significantly improved mechanically and aesthetically pleasing. Spending $2.5K on a Glock will net you a pedestrian pistol that's marginally improved mechanically (arguable at that) and the equivalent of putting $2.45K worth of gold rims and lowering springs on your econobox. It may go around corners a little faster, but it's not really going to impress anyone beyond basic fanboy status.
I disagree. Look at how much a fully pimped out Glock from ATEi or Boresight Solutions is. Ain't cheap either. It certainly isn't as much as a Salient, but it is certainly many times the cost of the gun itself. My EDC H&K P30LS is worth about 3k USD total; take off the RMR and the X400U-GN, and it's still 2k USD worth of pure gun, with almost no slide work. There is certainly a point of diminishing returns, but to spend multiple times the cost of a polymer gun on work for it, well, I can certainly understand it.
Oh, and don't forget about Glock knuckle and slide bite. And you can certainly dehorn a 1911 with a handfile. Etc. It ain't an exact comparison, but it's damn close by my book.
Nightstalker865
06-07-15, 20:50
Fair enough.
However, it's also worth remembering that this was about the time they were starting up so their products may very have been the cats ass. Second, they still had a working website then. If a company in the business of sales can't bother to get a website up (they might now, I haven't paid any attention in some time) what else are they skimping on?
I completely agree.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Pat McNamara is one of the last dudes I picture being a cool gear whore. Seems to say what he likes because he likes it. The Salient stuff looks cool. But if I am spending that kind of chedder I am getting a Wilson 1911. It is hard to believe that Salient asks for that kinda money and put out a product like in the pictures. Sad. I could see the argument that big name guys get the top notch treatment. But to me, it should not be that much better for the money you have to spend.
It is good to know about Salinet Arms. I don't see myself spending 2k for a custom Glock. If I am going to spend that kind of money I don't have, I know now where not to go to Salient Arms. It sound some people can be bought with a custom guns.
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-08-15, 00:33
To each his own. Sending a 1911 off to get customized is 40% function and %60 form/romance. That is a gun that has direct plumbing to the brain of every real American male. The great thing about a Glock was supposed to be you could just buy it and shoot it, (it is was it is). Of course, these days Glocks are more and more like the 1911. I took a class with Ken hackathorn a year or so ago and he said he was seeing Glocks poop the bed as often as 1911s. Part of this is the improvement in the quality of 1911s, but most of it has been the decline in Glock reliability over the last 5 or so years.
Either way, its a free country. You can spend a bunch of money on it turning it into something it isn't and name it Caitlyn for all I care.
Either way, its a free country. You can spend a bunch of money on it turning it into something it isn't and name it Caitlyn for all I care.
Are you advocating the "undicking" of one's Glock?
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-08-15, 01:33
Hahah. I am just playing. More power to you. If you want to spend 45k on a Gold Slide that is cool with me. Merica!
To be fair - I nor anyone else ever said we heard Pat Mac, Falla, or others (aside from Costa maybe) recommend them, just that they have been seen using them. Also to that end, Pat has his own section here - if anyone is really curious they could just ask, I believe he's pretty good about responding.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
To each his own. Sending a 1911 off to get customized is 40% function and %60 form/romance. That is a gun that has direct plumbing to the brain of every real American male. The great thing about a Glock was supposed to be you could just buy it and shoot it, (it is was it is). Of course, these days Glocks are more and more like the 1911. I took a class with Ken hackathorn a year or so ago and he said he was seeing Glocks poop the bed as often as 1911s. Part of this is the improvement in the quality of 1911s, but most of it has been the decline in Glock reliability over the last 5 or so years.
Either way, its a free country. You can spend a bunch of money on it turning it into something it isn't and name it Caitlyn for all I care.
That was kind of my point. 40% function is a higher percentage than you get on modding a Glock. I can see grip reductions, stippling for extra purchase and replacing wonky factory parts with stuff like Apex extractors, etc., but the rest of it is form. Everything you need to customize a Glock to suit your shooting style and needs should run less than the initial cost of the gun. When you're spending 4X the cost of the base polymer gun on mods, your ROI is rapidly dwindling. At the end of the day, you still have a soulless polymer gun that will never look as good as a clean 1911.
Likewise you can take a base Colt, Springer, etc, spend $600-800 on tool steel internals and tuning, along with some extras to improve handling and your ROI is higher on the shooting side. Or you can just go buy a Dan Wesson with a magwell and call it good. :)
Don't know anything about Falla and Costa but Pat McNamara had a Salient 1911 and now he doesn't, he's not shilling for anyone. Seen him shoot the Salient Glock (ran just fine and he crushed us all with it in speed and accuracy) but he never pushes a product.
I can see grip reductions, stippling for extra purchase and replacing wonky factory parts with stuff like Apex extractors, etc., but the rest of it is form.
I may have missed it in this four page threas, but have you shot one to any significant extent? The "form" comment, it should come from experience, no?
I may have missed it in this four page threas, but have you shot one to any significant extent? The "form" comment, it should come from experience, no?
Yes. As a competitive pistol shooter, I've shot many of these top level guns, including Salient. I've shot Matt Mink's SP-01 Shadow. Back when Todd Jarrett was running an LDA with a scary light 1.25# trigger, I shot it. I've shot Ernie Langdon's Beretta 92 Elite & Sig P-220 (he likes to go by Earnest now, but I knew him when he just went by Ernie). I've shot Burwell & Accurate Iron M&P's, Zev Tech & Charlie Vanek prepped Glocks. I campaigned a Wilson KZ-45 for a year that I spec'd myself (came in 3rd overall behind Leatham and Wilson's own Greg Martin at Nationals), and I also ran a Smith 686 with Randy Lee's full house Level IV ICORE work for two years.
I made Master in 4 divisions in IDPA, all through match wins. I've won over 50 local, state and national titles with Glocks, M&P's, single & double stack 1911's, K & L frame revolvers, none of which were ever 100% stock. I do most of my own gun work now. A significant hallmark of my competitive career is that I campaign guns that always work. Always. You just can't win with a gun that chokes. I've run guns that when other people shoot them, they wonder how they work at all, yet they always do. I'm full on OCD when it comes to reliability of my gear, to the point that those who know me well make fun of me for it.
So I know a little bit about modding guns and yes, a $2,500 Glock is a fashion statement. Any $2,500 polymer gun is a fashion statement. On the flip side of that coin, some $3,500 custom 1911's are fashion statements that don't work. Regardless of how it looks, a gun should work first & foremost. :)
I admire your illustrious competitive career.
I am not that good at shooting, but I had shot most of the guns you've mentioned.
I also have a Boresight Glock, a mid-high 4 digit 1911 and there is another one coming.
The price of anything doesn't reflect value, it reflects market forces.
None of the above is particularly relevant to a discussion of form vs function, which is what my question was.
G17/34 slide is a full ounce or two heavier than that of the most of its competitors yet it is still amply shootable. Salient, and others, remove weight and tune them up with lighter recoil springs and I don't think I shot anything flatter tracking, save for comped guns. They are also very accurate and I can't help but wonder if that stupid gold coating adds a few microns and tightens up the lockup.
Maybe not all of that is a form factor, eh?
Defaultmp3
06-08-15, 10:39
That was kind of my point. 40% function is a higher percentage than you get on modding a Glock. I can see grip reductions, stippling for extra purchase and replacing wonky factory parts with stuff like Apex extractors, etc., but the rest of it is form. Everything you need to customize a Glock to suit your shooting style and needs should run less than the initial cost of the gun. When you're spending 4X the cost of the base polymer gun on mods, your ROI is rapidly dwindling. At the end of the day, you still have a soulless polymer gun that will never look as good as a clean 1911.
Likewise you can take a base Colt, Springer, etc, spend $600-800 on tool steel internals and tuning, along with some extras to improve handling and your ROI is higher on the shooting side. Or you can just go buy a Dan Wesson with a magwell and call it good. :)
I will never understand the whole "soulless" argument; 1911s simply don't really do anything for me.
But anyway, sure, there is definitely an issue of ROI. But one can still spend a fair bit of coin on doing what most would consider purely functional mods to a Glock, if one wants the best the industry has to offer.
Glock 17: 475 USD
Boresight Solutions Level 2 Glock Package: 540 USD
Boresight Solutions Beavertail: 225 USD
Boresight Solutions Magazine Release Scallop: 75 USD
Boresight Solutions Magwell Cutouts: 35 USD
Boresight Solutions Trigger Tuning: 45 USD
Bar-Sto Match Target Barrel: 220 USD
Bar-Sto Match Target Barrel Fitting: 200 USD
Heinie Ledge Straight Eights: 140 USD
ATEi Full Top Serrations: 150 USD
ATEi Enhanced Side Serrations, front & back: 135 USD
ATEi Nitride Refinish: 90 USD
Vickers Tactical Slide Stop: 20 USD
Vickers Tactical Extended Magazine Release: 15 USD
Total: 2365 USD
A sound argument can be made for every single item on that list, even if it isn't necessarily the most practical of add-ons.
I admire your illustrious competitive career.
I am not that good at shooting, but I had shot most of the guns you've mentioned.
I also have a Boresight Glock, a mid-high 4 digit 1911 and there is another one coming.
The price of anything doesn't reflect value, it reflects market forces.
None of the above is particularly relevant to a discussion of form vs function, which is what my question was.
G17/34 slide is a full ounce or two heavier than that of the most of its competitors yet it is still amply shootable. Salient, and others, remove weight and tune them up with lighter recoil springs and I don't think I shot anything flatter tracking, save for comped guns. They are also very accurate and I can't help but wonder if that stupid gold coating adds a few microns and tightens up the lockup.
Maybe not all of that is a form factor, eh?
Thanks!
No doubt the coating incrementally tightens the lockup for better accuracy, but a quality hand fitted match barrel will do even more (I have three Bar-Sto Glock barrels). They also crisp up the trigger by dramatically reducing the dip of the slide at the back as the trigger bar pulls the striker. One of my Glocks will consistently print 1.7" 10 shot groups off the bench at 25 yards with Montana Gold JHPs (G17). My G34 did as well or better when it was fresh. After 50K it lost some accuracy of course, but it's still worlds better than stock. The tighter match chambers get an extra polish for reliability and all gauged rounds work perfectly. I don't gauge my practice ammo, as that would be too time consuming.
On the practical accuracy side, upgrading the sights with a serrated .100" front sight (FO for my aging eyes) and a quality back sight, along with smoothing up the trigger seems to yield the most ROI for most people. On shootability at speed, undercutting the trigger guard and stippling really benefit control. If I'm shooting a "stock" division, that's not an option and I go with Tru Grip grit tape, replacing it a couple of times per season. I shoot with a VERY high grip and keeping my offhand thumb properly spaced prevents slide bite without modding the tang.
While slide lightening can make the gun stay flatter and aid sight tracking with proper spring tuning, all but the best shooters aren’t going to capitalize on the potential. Unless you’re shooting .15 and under splits and can actually TRACK the sights at this speed, it just doesn’t matter. On the down side of that, spring tuning becomes crucial or reliability suffers. You’re fundamentally altering the timing of the gun. Too light and the gun gets bouncy, resulting in worse tracking and unreliable lockup. Too heavy and you get the front sight dipping excessively, along with intermittent slide stop failures. Additionally, shooting from unorthodox positions or with a compromised grip will reveal reliability issues. I’ve seen quite a few good shooters get worse match results when riding the edge, even when the gun worked all the way through. It takes a deft touch to drive these super-tuned guns with precision and reliability.
Keep in mind that I’m not bashing anyone’s choices or saying it’s foolish. Confidence in one’s gear is an unquantifiable yet crucial part of performance. If that Boresight Glock upped your game, who’s to say it’s wrong? I just see too many people who get the opposite effect when their high dollar magic wand doesn’t turn them into Merlin.
I will never understand the whole "soulless" argument; 1911s simply don't really do anything for me.
But anyway, sure, there is definitely an issue of ROI. But one can still spend a fair bit of coin on doing what most would consider purely functional mods to a Glock, if one wants the best the industry has to offer.
Glock 17: 475 USD
Boresight Solutions Level 2 Glock Package: 540 USD
Boresight Solutions Beavertail: 225 USD
Boresight Solutions Magazine Release Scallop: 75 USD
Boresight Solutions Magwell Cutouts: 35 USD
Boresight Solutions Trigger Tuning: 45 USD
Bar-Sto Match Target Barrel: 220 USD
Bar-Sto Match Target Barrel Fitting: 200 USD
Heinie Ledge Straight Eights: 140 USD
ATEi Full Top Serrations: 150 USD
ATEi Enhanced Side Serrations, front & back: 135 USD
ATEi Nitride Refinish: 90 USD
Vickers Tactical Slide Stop: 20 USD
Vickers Tactical Extended Magazine Release: 15 USD
Total: 2365 USD
A sound argument can be made for every single item on that list, even if it isn't necessarily the most practical of add-ons.
It's just like the "it's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand". If 1911's don't do it for you, no amount of discussion on the topic is going to change your mind. As a 1911 aficionado, I don't recommend them for everyone, just as I wouldn't recommend an HK P7 for everyone. That doesn't mean that each fails to excel in their relative strengths. Also keep in mind that my screen name is "glocktogo".
Just as Kokalis has been described as a "combat geek" or nerd, I'm a gun geek/nerd. I've sought out and procured just about every major combat arm/platform, even when I knew I wasn’t going to stick with it. I simply wanted to extract what they exceled at, how they were engineered and why people are drawn to them. I didn't require that desire to make it "my gun", just the curiosity about it. I bought a PPQ Navy just to examine it and figure out why they have a rep for FTRTB when suppressed (it’s a combination of the extractor specs and guide rod).
That said, I can’t make an argument for everything on your list, even when evaluating specific roles such as competition, CCW, HD, backwoods, training and target shooting combined. Your list is an emotion driven list. Like I said in my previous post, if all that gives you the unquantifiable confidence to excel beyond what you could without it, drive on. Just don’t expect everyone to agree with your choices as practical or necessary.
WickedWillis
06-08-15, 12:10
I had a guy jump all over me on social media for calling his Salient Glock cool, but not $2500 cool. He continued to tell me how poor and pathetic I was, and I just informed him of how much ammo and training I could buy after putting night sights on my stock Glock. He really didn't have a response to that. I for one have never been on the blinged out super high speed operator as f*** the gun makes you a better shooter the more money you pay for it kind of guy. Some guys are though, and that is completely fine. I hope no one got screwed over here too bad, but it's a good PSA.
Defaultmp3
06-08-15, 12:51
It's just like the "it's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand". If 1911's don't do it for you, no amount of discussion on the topic is going to change your mind. As a 1911 aficionado, I don't recommend them for everyone, just as I wouldn't recommend an HK P7 for everyone. That doesn't mean that each fails to excel in their relative strengths.
Sure, I totally agree. It's just that I'm just decidedly tired of the whole "can't make a Glock into a 1911 no matter how much money you dump" argument whenever expensive plastic modifications come up; maybe you can, maybe you can't, depending on one's goals, needs, and perceptions about the two guns. No damn need to always bring up the 1911 platform just because a pistol is expensive, or has expensive modifications. At the end of the day, I'm not decrying you saying that you think that 1911s have soul; rather, I'm annoyed that people can't seem to understand that others might think their plastic guns have soul.
That said, I can’t make an argument for everything on your list, even when evaluating specific roles such as competition, CCW, HD, backwoods, training and target shooting combined. Your list is an emotion driven list. Like I said in my previous post, if all that gives you the unquantifiable confidence to excel beyond what you could without it, drive on. Just don’t expect everyone to agree with your choices as practical or necessary.
I dislike the word "necessary", since an argument can very easily be made that no mod is truly necessary besides some minor reliability parts on the Glock (which I'm told has been fixed from the factory, anyway).
Beyond that, depends on what you mean by emotion driven, IMO. At the very core, the bulk of the cost beyond the gun is merely grip work, match barrel, and slide serrations, all of which are generally seen as being quite practical, no? No fiddling about with recoil spring weights or slide cutouts or anything. Could you get a grip reduction with stippling for far cheaper? Sure, and you would still get damn good work from plenty of other companies. Could you replace the serrations with grip tape on the slide? Hell, that's what I personally do. But then you wouldn't be getting what some people consider the very top tier of Glock modification. Which, obviously, imparts a minuscule performance gain, but unlike, say, Salient, it doesn't negatively impact the gun in any way, just your wallet. But because of the the trend is to say that's a damn waste of money... except I have never seen anyone make the same claim about some guy that asks about a high dollar 1911. I mean, is a Ted Yost Signature Grade 1911 really worth about 2.5 Wilson Combat CQBs? People always make the argument that putting money in a 1911 just means you're bringing a subpar gun up to how it should be, but they never seem to down on the concept of putting more money into already working 1911, either...
So, at the end of the day, I suspect most would say the "impracticality" of my list mostly derives from cost, and not so much the work itself, unlike in Salient's case, where there is potentially compromised reliability and safety. But if it's merely a cost issue, then the whole issue is totally subjective, since ROI is totally on the buyer's financial abilities, especially considering how Boresight Solution's plastic modification is considered some of the best in the industry, and isn't orders of magnitude more costly than his cheaper competitors. I'm not asking if people think a particular mod is practical for everyone, I'm just asking them to understand that it's practical for those willing to pay for it and it's within their means.
Oh, and I'll go ahead and note that I don't own a Glock, have never owned a Glock and have no desire to ever own a Glock (besides possibly the Glock 43).
I took two Vtac classes. In them Kyle had a lightly modded M&P, he said he specifically requested no light wight mods or and crazy cutting of the stuff. He seemed happy with the accuracy and trigger of the gun. I did not see it fail int he class. I can say he really made no effort to 'sell' these guns, nor was he particularly excited about the gun. He seemed to care for it only slightly more than a stock one.
Also in the class was a student who had a Glock 17 with the works. It was what ever the highest level Salient markets. This thing was a jam-o-matic. The owner tried numerous different brass cased fmj ammo to the same effect. He was such a total fan boi he was positive it wasn't his most awesomest gun ever made in the whole world. This kid was the quintessential fan boi and could not shut up about his gun. If I hadn't been put off by the guns shortcoming, his constant praise for it, and how it was worth every part of the 3 grand he paid for it would have. He was nice enough to let me shoot it. The trigger was not too different from a well broken in stock trigger with a - connector. I strongly disliked the snappy recoil of the lightened reciprocating mass. I found the increased slide speed led to a less controllable gun with more muzzle flip. There was less 'recoil' but it was much snappier. Like .357sig vs. .45acp
This thread does not surprise me, there is another one with a similar lack of praise.
These uber-customized plastic service pistols always seemed 1. to miss the point and 2. like polishing a turd. But I am old-fashioned.
This,.........It is just another way to separate the unwashed masses from their money.
I have lots of different plastic pistols and they all work just fine stock. But that works for my use and others uses may be different.
lawusmc0844
06-08-15, 21:28
I first heard about Salient when I took Costa's HE class during post deployment leave (back in early 2013). Him and some of the other shooters were using their tricked out Salient Glocks and M&Ps. They ran without issues and they were shooting some very tight groups. They looked cool but then again normal Glocks look cool to me too IMO. I used my secondary G19, which like my other two is stock except for Vickers extended mag release and for this particular gun 10-8 night sights. Stock Glocks work well for me, I never saw the need to change anything but the mag release and sights. In fact, I feel Glocks have the best stock trigger pull, never understood the complaints against it.
If someone wants to blow $2000+ to trick out their Glock, well to each their own. I can't hate on Salient for providing an (expensive) service and actually have multiple people willing to pay for it. I can hate on them though, if they do crap work as shown by Boresight and not man up to their mistakes. Having read some of their FB posts, looks like they don't like criticism.
From Travis:
Travis Haley: Thanks for posting this. Normally I don't say anything but Im tired of the hype on these over priced guns. I find nothing but problems with them in classes, found many issues like this... especially those carbines they made, Never seen one work right. Theres nothing "Tier" about them...
Nightstalker865
06-09-15, 11:21
From Travis:
Travis Haley: Thanks for posting this. Normally I don't say anything but Im tired of the hype on these over priced guns. I find nothing but problems with them in classes, found many issues like this... especially those carbines they made, Never seen one work right. Theres nothing "Tier" about them...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, so...
Anyone here ever shot a lightened slide with a light recoil spring and high pressure +P ammo?
Its punishing...
Light slides and light recoil springs are for two different end users.
1. Range Ninja combat masters running 115 grain store bought ammo.
2. Competition shooters running reduced power loads. A lightened 35 or 24 with 170 power factor ammo requires a REALLY firm grip to get it to track flat.
For carry loads, i want a heavier weight slide to soak up that recoil but yeah, im pretty sure that 95% of the guys buying 2500 dollar Glocks rarely ever run +P ammo through their guns or even think about it for that matter. Then again, i think most people buy these things as range toys so its mostly a moot issue.
Never played with slide weight, but I find light springs to track better. Heavy springs dip the muzzle down. There was a really good video on it some time ago, and my limited experience reflects that for me.
I also thought gamers ran hot loads to work the comps and get power factor up.
That said, for carry, there is a sweet spot, usually at or around factory configuration. Too heavy a spring and your slide o
Out runs the magazine, too light and you beat the crap out of your gun.
Never played with slide weight, but I find light springs to track better. Heavy springs dip the muzzle down. There was a really good video on it some time ago, and my limited experience reflects that for me.
I also thought gamers ran hot loads to work the comps and get power factor up.
That said, for carry, there is a sweet spot, usually at or around factory configuration. Too heavy a spring and your slide o
Out runs the magazine, too light and you beat the crap out of your gun.
"Gamers" run hot loads in open, with comp'd guns.
Limited shooters do not use comps and rely on the same physics as everyone else to mitigate recoil. The only leeway they have is the ability to play with slide weights.
I've seen a lot of people using these. Pat Mac would be another IIRC.
I shot Mac's Salient. Barrel fit was horrible on it.
C4
Public service announcement. If you are spending something around $2k on a plastic pistol and NOT getting a fitted barrel (that can deliver at least 1MOA at 25yds), then you wasted your money. If the gun isn't reliable, then you wasted your money.
C4
WickedWillis
06-09-15, 12:31
Public service announcement. If you are spending something around $2k on a plastic pistol and NOT getting a fitted barrel (that can deliver at least 1MOA at 25yds), then you wasted your money. If the gun isn't reliable, then you wasted your money.
C4
This sums up everything in this thread.
Public service announcement. If you are spending something around $2k on a plastic pistol and NOT getting a fitted barrel (that can deliver at least 1MOA at 25yds), then you wasted your money. If the gun isn't reliable, then you wasted your money.
C4My thoughts exactly. I shoot stock Glocks and if I want more than that I'll be forking over $1k for a CZ Tac Sport. Any improvement over that for me is going to be years of shooting, tons of ammo, and better stage planning. My guns do one of three things: 1. save my life and/or that of those I care about if the .01% of chances happens 2. perform well for me in competitions which is my form of practice for #1, and 3. serve me, my family, friends, and new shooters to have a good time together. I don't have the time, money, or inclination for turning a $500 gun that works 100% of the time into a $2000+ gun that works 50-75% of the time because it looks better.
Please tell me I'm not the only one who enjoys the following video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KjQk244oW9c
That was awesome!
The "Assailant" part floors me every time.
Public service announcement. If you are spending something around $2k on a plastic pistol and NOT getting a fitted barrel (that can deliver at least 1MOA at 25yds), then you wasted your money. If the gun isn't reliable, then you wasted your money.
As much as I feel like a jackass for having spent half that on individual M&P's... I'm pretty confident that one of those with every StormLake and Apex Tactical box checked would trounce anything short of a semi-custom 1911 on usable mechanical accuracy, and still be way cheaper.
As much as I feel like a jackass for having spent half that on individual M&P's... I'm pretty confident that one of those with every StormLake and Apex Tactical box checked would trounce anything short of a semi-custom 1911 on usable mechanical accuracy, and still be way cheaper.
True. My M&P's and Glock with the fitted barrels we did shoot with my $3K WC 1911's.
C4
I first heard about Salient when I took Costa's HE class during post deployment leave (back in early 2013). Him and some of the other shooters were using their tricked out Salient Glocks and M&Ps. They ran without issues and they were shooting some very tight groups. They looked cool but then again normal Glocks look cool to me too IMO. I used my secondary G19, which like my other two is stock except for Vickers extended mag release and for this particular gun 10-8 night sights. Stock Glocks work well for me, I never saw the need to change anything but the mag release and sights. In fact, I feel Glocks have the best stock trigger pull, never understood the complaints against it.
If someone wants to blow $2000+ to trick out their Glock, well to each their own. I can't hate on Salient for providing an (expensive) service and actually have multiple people willing to pay for it. I can hate on them though, if they do crap work as shown by Boresight and not man up to their mistakes. Having read some of their FB posts, looks like they don't like criticism.
i was extremely surprised to see disparaging words toward costa from someone as well known as boresight solutions.
at the end travis haley even chimed in with how much these guns fail in classes.
i just find it interesting that this company gets so much social media hype and it can have such a poor reputation in reality.
i was extremely surprised to see disparaging words toward costa from someone as well known as boresight solutions.
at the end travis haley even chimed in with how much these guns fail in classes.
i just find it interesting that this company gets so much social media hype and it can have such a poor reputation in reality.
Being an industry outsider, I've always wondered about the authenticity of some of these so-called celebrity trainer endorsements. Now, my suspicions have been confirmed. Good on Ben for speaking the truth. Another example of this type of media over saturation and hype is Agency Arms. They just came onto the scene this year and the guns are very nice looking. But they have literally taken over my Instagram page. It seems like any industry person, especially those who do Firearms marketing or media, miraculously jumped onto the Agency bandwagon at SHOT Show or shortly thereafter. They do make for some sexy gun porn after all. But I've wondered since day one if they were as reliable as a stock gun or any more mechanically accurate.
Being an industry outsider, I've always wondered about the authenticity of some of these so-called celebrity trainer endorsements. Now, my suspicions have been confirmed. Good on Ben for speaking the truth. Another example of this type of media over saturation and hype is Agency Arms. They just came onto the scene this year and the guns are very nice looking. But they have literally taken over my Instagram page. It seems like any industry person, especially those who do Firearms marketing or media, miraculously jumped onto the Agency bandwagon at SHOT Show or shortly thereafter. They do make for some sexy gun porn after all. But I've wondered since day one if they were as reliable as a stock gun or any more mechanically accurate.
Their flat trigger looks interesting
MountainRaven
06-18-15, 22:29
Their flat trigger looks interesting
I like their flat trigger.
In fact, I like the Glock I got from them - apart from the fact that the barrel accumulates lint and bits of suede from the interior of my holster (but it hasn't impacted function at all, in my experience. After a magazine or two, the debris has left the gun for regions unknown).
But y'all win.
I like their flat trigger.
In fact, I like the Glock I got from them - apart from the fact that the barrel accumulates lint and bits of suede from the interior of my holster (but it hasn't impacted function at all, in my experience. After a magazine or two, the debris has left the gun for regions unknown).
But y'all win.
So she's been reliable for you thus far? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Agency is Salient 2.0. I'm just curious about them due to the abundance of marketing that has been devoted to their products in such a short period of time.
MountainRaven
06-18-15, 23:14
So she's been reliable for you thus far? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Agency is Salient 2.0. I'm just curious about them due to the abundance of marketing that has been devoted to their products in such a short period of time.
I thought we were still talking about Salient.
The Salient has worked really well for me, but I also haven't put a lot of rounds downrange with it.
I thought we were still talking about Salient.
The Salient has worked really well for me, but I also haven't put a lot of rounds downrange with it.
OK, gotcha. Agency is also offering a flat faced Glock trigger. Sorry for the confusion.
I'll admit that I am an unabashed Boresight fanboy and personal friend of Ben up front. I've also taken multiple classes with Viking Tactics and seen two Salient M&P's in action. Kyle has one that I've seen him use. He didn't mention it or shill for Salient at all. Heck, he didn't even shill his own stuff (absent the books). The other Salient I've seen up close had problems one class, was completely rebuilt by Ben internally with Apex, and then ran fine at the second class. I have also taken classes with Pat McNamara where he used a Salient. He didn't shill for it either. Many times, people are given products to try. "Testing" shouldn't be confused with "endorsing".
I'm just some dude but:
A. The target won't know or care how much you spent
B. If it deviates too far from source specs with no huge payoff;is it really worth it?
C. Gucci gear loses gravitas as soon as another disaffected employee cuts up his own slides, stipples his own frames, uses a different shade of cerakote, slaps on a new cool 'dangerous ' sounding name, and charges for his 'special custom' work.
It's kind of silly. Part of the fun of being a serious shooter, some of us whom do this for life or death, is that there is an unspoken monogamy.
I mean...some of this is like women and shoes. They are just shoes. No matter how daring they are....fat girls are still fat and ugly girls are still ugly. If you can't shoot then 3 grand on a Glock won't help.
If you ARE competent then 3 grand would be unnecessary unless it went to suppressors and ammo.
(Forgive the courseness of ugly/fat girls analogy but it is apt and shoes only divert attention from the 95 percent of the body that counts and only then just momentarily )
BufordTJustice
06-22-15, 11:52
Is anybody even wondering about the actual timing of the action during firing? I mean, lightening the slide increases what would be ROF in a FA context. What happens when I use my agency issued 124 gr +P Gold Dot or my personal fav, Federal HST 147gr +P?
I mean, I know what COULD happen. All kinds of out-of-battery mischief.
I didn't read this whole thread, but I can't be the only one thinking about this.
Is anybody even wondering about the actual timing of the action during firing? I mean, lightening the slide increases what would be ROF in a FA context. What happens when I use my agency issued 124 gr +P Gold Dot or my personal fav, Federal HST 147gr +P?
I mean, I know what COULD happen. All kinds of out-of-battery mischief.
I didn't read this whole thread, but I can't be the only one thinking about this.
You're not, see post #39. I think a couple of other people mentioned it too.
BufordTJustice
06-22-15, 14:37
You're not, see post #39. I think a couple of other people mentioned it too.
Thank you. At least I'm not going crazy. Lol
I'd rather pay $2000 for a high grade parrot that could say stuff like "eat shit" and "**** you" than drop two grand on a Glock.
Is anybody even wondering about the actual timing of the action during firing? I mean, lightening the slide increases what would be ROF in a FA context. What happens when I use my agency issued 124 gr +P Gold Dot or my personal fav, Federal HST 147gr +P?
I mean, I know what COULD happen. All kinds of out-of-battery mischief.
I didn't read this whole thread, but I can't be the only one thinking about this.
The G22 has a slide + barrel (recoiling parts) weight of only about 20 grams more than the G17, and the same recoil spring assembly. To put this into perspective, replacing the OEM plastic sight for a larger metal one like the Heine, 10-8, etc. will add about 10 grams. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the difference in recoiling mass between stock G22 vs G17 is only about 3%.
A load firing a 180 gr bullet @ 1040 fps in the 40 has about 22% more recoil impulse than a 9 mm firing a 147 gr bullet @ 1040 fps (which is about the same as a 124 gr bullet @ 1220 fps). So unless the slide + barrel cuts lose more than 20% or so of the original mass, there shouldn't be any problem with early unlocking.
This said, I'm a fan of relatively heavy, robust and closed slides, and for me this Salient Arms unit is a joke.
1slow01Z71
06-23-15, 10:04
Being an industry outsider, I've always wondered about the authenticity of some of these so-called celebrity trainer endorsements. Now, my suspicions have been confirmed. Good on Ben for speaking the truth. Another example of this type of media over saturation and hype is Agency Arms. They just came onto the scene this year and the guns are very nice looking. But they have literally taken over my Instagram page. It seems like any industry person, especially those who do Firearms marketing or media, miraculously jumped onto the Agency bandwagon at SHOT Show or shortly thereafter. They do make for some sexy gun porn after all. But I've wondered since day one if they were as reliable as a stock gun or any more mechanically accurate.
Thats easy, when they were first getting going they contacted almost all the "instagram kings" and many other well known industry guys and cut them an insane deal to mod their pistols. Id say it was marketing money well spent because as you said theyre everywhere.
I go back and forth if I want to send my 19 to them. At 1400 for the works its not a terrible price but the fact that doesnt include a match fit barrel or that they even offer that option troubles me.
I'd rather pay $2000 for a high grade parrot that could say stuff like "eat shit" and "**** you" than drop two grand on a Glock.
Hahahahahahahahaha
BufordTJustice
06-23-15, 13:01
The G22 has a slide + barrel (recoiling parts) weight of only about 20 grams more than the G17, and the same recoil spring assembly. To put this into perspective, replacing the OEM plastic sight for a larger metal one like the Heine, 10-8, etc. will add about 10 grams. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the difference in recoiling mass between stock G22 vs G17 is only about 3%.
A load firing a 180 gr bullet @ 1040 fps in the 40 has about 22% more recoil impulse than a 9 mm firing a 147 gr bullet @ 1040 fps (which is about the same as a 124 gr bullet @ 1220 fps). So unless the slide + barrel cuts lose more than 20% or so of the original mass, there shouldn't be any problem with early unlocking.
This said, I'm a fan of relatively heavy, robust and closed slides, and for me this Salient Arms unit is a joke.
Gotcha. Thank you for the numbers.
I'd rather pay $2000 for a high grade parrot that could say stuff like "eat shit" and "**** you" than drop two grand on a Glock.
Not to mention that the parrot would over time expand his/her vocabulary,(not always a good thing) as well as live a long time. (some parrots live 30-40yrs or more)
I think it is funny that people pay that much for a custom Glock. Some of the top shooter spend money on sights and trigger kits as upgrades. Less then $500.00 maybe less then that, maybe $300.00. Everything else is stock. And they win matches. I guess you just need to practice and not spend a two grand on customizing your gun :)
For some folks, an expensive and highly customized Glock might have an aura or mystique, and ownership of such a unique weapon would then transfer the device's aura and mystique to them. When I was a kid, I read one of Jeff Cooper's articles in which he stated that many handgun owners are dilettantes. I looked up the term, which was completely unknown to me. Ever since, I honestly have tried not to be one. He also used the word affectation, and I didn't know that one either. In a couple sentences the two terms can be used this way: Willie professes to be a handgun enthusiast but his lack of study and training shows that Willie's knowledge in the area is superficial. Thus, he is a dilettante, and his $2000 Glock is an affectation. Of course, exceptions exist.
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