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View Full Version : Georgia gun owners’ rights not destroyed by Corps’ ban, court rules



Outlander Systems
06-11-15, 09:26
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/breaking-news/georgia-gun-owners-rights-not-destroyed-by-corps-b/nmZTy/

http://www.dailyreportonline.com/home/id=1202728860877/Judges-Gun-Rights-Groups-Home-Run-Swing-Strikes-Out?mcode=1202617074542&curindex=0&slreturn=20150511100711

Basically, the court ruled that the 2nd Ammendment does not apply to Corps of Engineers Managed Properties.

So, for the Orwellian Doublespeak from the Court:


"The government's stated and plainly legitimate objective is promoting public safety on Corps property," although he acknowledged, "We lack much of the basic information we would need to assess the risks found at Allatoona Lake. … We also have no evidence about the dangers currently facing Allatoona visitors, including the frequency and nature of crimes committed or of altercations amongst visitors."

Read more: http://www.dailyreportonline.com/id=1202728860877/Judges-Gun-Rights-Groups-Home-Run-Swing-Strikes-Out#ixzz3clMJxLC3

Money quote:


The firearm regulation was a “reasonable fit to the Corps’ interests by contributing to visitor safety and protecting infrastructure projects — particularly in light of the Corps’ limited ability to police its own property,” the court ruled in August.

Am I the only one who reads this as, "We can't protect you, and neither can you?"

While it can be argued that the Corps can set its own policies regarding its facilities, this is an interesting case in that:

Georgia is the "Guns Everywhere" :rolleyes: state.


O.C.G.A. § 16-11-173
Legislative findings; preemption of local regulation and lawsuits; exceptions

(a) (1) It is declared by the General Assembly that the regulation of firearms and other weapons is properly an issue of general, state-wide concern.

(2) The General Assembly further declares that the lawful design, marketing, manufacture, and sale of firearms and ammunition and other weapons to the public is not unreasonably dangerous activity and does not constitute a nuisance per se.

(b) (1) Except as provided in subsection (c) of this Code section, no county or municipal corporation, by zoning or by ordinance or resolution, nor any agency, board, department, commission, or authority of this state, other than the General Assembly, by rule or regulation shall regulate in any manner:

(A) Gun shows;

(B) The possession, ownership, transport, carrying, transfer, sale, purchase, licensing, or registration of firearms or other weapons or components of firearms or other weapons;

(C) Firearms dealers or dealers of other weapons; or

(D) Dealers in components of firearms or other weapons.

Basically, no City, County, Community, etc. can bar carrying of weapons. The state has the sole authority to determine the regulatory nature of weapons possession. It is a blanket statement, preventing anyone from trying to preempt the state's rulings regarding the "Guns Everywhere" :rolleyes: law.

The interesting thing is that, carry is lawful in the National Parks.


Q. Can I have a firearm in every park after February 22, 2010?

A. If you can legally possess a firearm outside of a national park, you can possess it in that park on and after February 22, 2010. It is up to visitors to understand the requirements of federal law and the laws of the states/localities they live in or are travelling to (or through). Park websites have been updated to offer basic information about the applicable state law(s) and will generally include a link to a state website with more information.


So the Corps of Engineers properties here, which are, for all intents and purposes, treated in a similar fashion to Parks, in terms of citizen usage, are the only ones who feel as though they are different from all the other areas in the state.

I've been on Corps lakes, as I do a lot of fishing, kayaking, boating, etc. There is no shortage of scumbags, drunken idiots, or other unsavory characters. There was a woman attacked by a guy wielding a taser on one Corps property not too long ago.

So, since the Corps openly states it does not have the manpower to enforce laws on its properties, to me, they would be opening themselves up to an excellent civil lawsuit if one were ever victimized on one of their properties.

SomeOtherGuy
06-11-15, 09:52
So, since the Corps openly states it does not have the manpower to enforce laws on its properties, to me, they would be opening themselves up to an excellent civil lawsuit if one were ever victimized on one of their properties.

Probably not, they would have immunity from that sort of lawsuit. It's all perfectly "legal."

I agree with you that this is a stupid rule, but the only way this one is likely to change is through political pressure. And it will be tricky because this is Army, not a standard federal agency, and for some reason I still can't fathom the armed forces seem more hostile to privately owned guns than any other part of government.

glocktogo
06-11-15, 10:06
Probably not, they would have immunity from that sort of lawsuit. It's all perfectly "legal."

I agree with you that this is a stupid rule, but the only way this one is likely to change is through political pressure. And it will be tricky because this is Army, not a standard federal agency, and for some reason I still can't fathom the armed forces seem more hostile to privately owned guns than any other part of government.

Because command and control trump individual welfare in the armed services. They're simply applying that same worldwide DoD standard to the American citizenry. Don't you remember signing away your constitutional rights when you entered their controlled areas?

You're absolutely correct that you cannot sue them. The government has indemnified themselves for any culpability resulting from their rules. :rolleyes:

Outlander Systems
06-11-15, 10:09
Probably not, they would have immunity from that sort of lawsuit. It's all perfectly "legal."

I agree with you that this is a stupid rule, but the only way this one is likely to change is through political pressure. And it will be tricky because this is Army, not a standard federal agency, and for some reason I still can't fathom the armed forces seem more hostile to privately owned guns than any other part of government.

"New Army" Bullllllllshhhhhhhhhh....

It's ridiculous. I suppose the "assumption of risk" comes into play, negating any negligence on the Corps' part.

I recently found out through a fishing buddy that the Corps allows duck hunting on one of the lakes in November. While I consider myself an outdoorsman, I can't fathom how it is acceptable to discharge long arms, actively, yet, I am forbidden from exercising my God-Given right to self defense. Further proof of the veracity of my signature line. It is also, through reading between the lines, the assertion of the Corps that the 2A is only for "sporting purposes".

FromMyColdDeadHand
06-11-15, 10:11
Corp of Engineers, Dam them!

austinN4
06-11-15, 10:33
O.C.G.A. § 16-11-173
(b) (1) Except as provided in subsection (c) of this Code section, no county or municipal corporation, by zoning or by ordinance or resolution, nor any agency, board, department, commission, or authority of this state, other than the General Assembly, by rule or regulation shall regulate in any manner:

I see nothing in the above that applies to federal-controlled lands. It specifically says "no county or municipal corporation" - the Corps is neither.

SomeOtherGuy
06-11-15, 11:18
I see nothing in the above that applies to federal-controlled lands. It specifically says "no county or municipal corporation" - the Corps is neither.

It wouldn't matter anyway because under the doctrine of federal supremacy, federal law overrides any state law that would say something different. (There are extremely limited exceptions to this, not likely relevant here and generally involving appeals to at least a federal circuit court level.)

SomeOtherGuy
06-11-15, 11:22
I recently found out through a fishing buddy that the Corps allows duck hunting on one of the lakes in November. While I consider myself an outdoorsman, I can't fathom how it is acceptable to discharge long arms, actively, yet, I am forbidden from exercising my God-Given right to self defense. Further proof of the veracity of my signature line. It is also, through reading between the lines, the assertion of the Corps that the 2A is only for "sporting purposes".

Because handguns are scary, and icky, and self defense is not a concept to them. I've found few people more scared of handguns than some close friends who are retired USAF and USN personnel, who apparently were taught that handguns are the very devil incarnate. One of them is a skilled benchrest and high power shooter too, which just makes it all the weirder to me.

I wonder though if you could simply do your fishing/boating during duck season, and keep your "duck gun" around in case of problems. "Why sure officer, I have no problem hitting ducks with 00 buck from this 18" cylinder barrel! I done been doin it since I was a boy!"

Outlander Systems
06-11-15, 11:45
I see nothing in the above that applies to federal-controlled lands. It specifically says "no county or municipal corporation" - the Corps is neither.

Correct. My intention was to illustrate that everything falling under the umbrella of the state was prohibited from trying to circumvent State law, by passing ordinances, codes, etc.

And as noted by, SomeOtherGuy:


It wouldn't matter anyway because under the doctrine of federal supremacy, federal law overrides any state law that would say something different.

Bureaucrats gonna Bureaucrat.


Because handguns are scary, and icky, and self defense is not a concept to them. I've found few people more scared of handguns than some close friends who are retired USAF and USN personnel, who apparently were taught that handguns are the very devil incarnate. One of them is a skilled benchrest and high power shooter too, which just makes it all the weirder to me.


Army too, man. The Army did NOT like several tattoos I had, which "depicted firearms".

I remember the phrase used was, "May be offensive to local populations." Offensive being the key term there.

FromMyColdDeadHand
06-11-15, 13:11
It wouldn't matter anyway because under the doctrine of federal supremacy, federal law overrides any state law that would say something different. (There are extremely limited exceptions to this, not likely relevant here and generally involving appeals to at least a federal circuit court level.)

Except when it comes to pot in CO, then it's all hands off.

jpmuscle
06-11-15, 13:54
Except when it comes to pot in CO, then it's all hands off.
No kidding. The right of the people to keep and bear marijuana, pot, bongs, joints, et al, shall not be infringed.

Leaveammoforme
06-11-15, 14:17
I have Corps' property near me that I spend most of my free time on. I have a Corps' hunting permit which, technically, is required to be on the property at all. They changed the rules this year where each permit holder is allowed one non-permit holding guest.

This property is over ran with non-permit holders that don't even know, or care, that permits exist. Illegal immigrants everywhere. They drop their hand lines and stare everytime I come around a corner in my green boat. I've had several run ins with them ranging from getting motor tangled up in illegal gill nets to full on wanting to ram them with the boat.

Firearms are limited to SG's with shot no larger than #2 and may only be possessed while hunting. Carrying a SG for cotton mouth extermination is not a good enough reason. No handguns or rifles allowed.

I still CC while on the property figuring I can sweet talk my way out of a run in with Fed/local Game Wardens if need be. My truck is a fixture at entrance points and I usually get a distant nod from a Warden on the rare occasion I actually see one. I have been thinking about leaving CC in pickup and start taking a shotgun to ,um..., squirrel hunt with. Problem is that I don't want to leave CC in truck or at home to be disarmed for entire trip to and from.

Since Texas is going to open carry I guarantee some people are going to get educated very quickly on a federal level on Corps' property rules.

HD1911
06-11-15, 14:28
Which is bullshit, because the Ruling in Idaho a year or so ago, was the opposite of this one.

HD1911
06-11-15, 14:31
Someone needs to bring a Lawsuit, charging that if they won't protect you on USACE Property, then you have the right to Defend yourselves.

We all know how well Gun-Free zones have worked out on Federal Property and Installations... see: Fort Hood x2

Outlander Systems
06-11-15, 15:05
Someone needs to bring a Lawsuit, charging that if they won't protect you on USACE Property, then you have the right to Defend yourselves.

We all know how well Gun-Free zones have worked out on Federal Property and Installations... see: Fort Hood x2

Yup.

I wonder if the Fox 5 i-Team would like to do an expose' on this ruling. Basically the Corps said we can go piss up a rope, and if we get Tasered in the woods by some psycho who DOESN'T care about being law-abiding...oh well. Tough boogers.

Bureaucracy is a speed bump to human self-determination, and potential.

HD1911
06-11-15, 15:15
Yup.

I wonder if the Fox 5 i-Team would like to do an expose' on this ruling. Basically the Corps said we can go piss up a rope, and if we get Tasered in the woods by some psycho who DOESN'T care about being law-abiding...oh well. Tough boogers.

Bureaucracy is a speed bump to human self-determination, and potential.

And actually, my argument is a moot point because even when they have Armed & Trained Staff, folks still have a right to defend themselves, regardless. Obviously, LE can't be everywhere at once, nor is it their job to provide personal protection. Hell, Ft. Hood had MPs and that didn't stop shit. Look at the real world, in daily Civillian life... the same applies here as well.

You, your family, and your comrades Safety is in your hands... that saying: 'better to be tried by 12 then burried 6ft under' comes to mind... this, to me atleast, is similiar to the New Jersey woman being murdered while waiting for an Un-Constitutional CCW Permit... unable to defend one's self because our Overlords say so.

Morris vs. USACE: https://www.mountainstateslegal.org/news-updates/news-releases/2014/10/14/idaho-woman-wins-u.s.-army-corps-gun-ban-unconstitutional and http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/10/16/federal-court-in-idaho-strikes-down-ban-on-possessing-guns-for-self-defense-on-army-corps-of-engineers-property/

glocktogo
06-11-15, 15:19
Someone needs to bring a Lawsuit, charging that if they won't protect you on USACE Property, then you have the right to Defend yourselves.

We all know how well Gun-Free zones have worked out on Federal Property and Installations... see: Fort Hood x2

Calling Alan Gura anyone?