View Full Version : Colt Defense to file for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection by Monday
Amp Mangum
06-14-15, 16:32
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/colt-defense-to-file-for-chapter-11-bankruptcy-protection-by-monday-2015-06-14
I think Colt should join Beretta and others and head South.
Hopefully it comes back better.
Hopefully it comes back better.
Or not come back at all. I am sure I will start a shit storm but I never understood the Colt worship expressed here. The old show ponies vs war horses mantra doesn't turn my crank. My long dead father's most remembered quote... "A girl that doesn't wash her hair probably doesn't wash her ass"
Or not come back at all. I am sure I will start a shit storm but I never understood the Colt worship expressed here. The old show ponies vs war horses mantra doesn't turn my crank. My long dead father's most remembered quote... "A girl that doesn't wash her hair probably doesn't wash her ass"
That's a funny and probably true statement but I don't understand how that relates to this?
That's a funny and probably true statement but I don't understand how that relates to this?
Colt QC has almost never impressed me. I had a Diamondback and Python that impressed but everything else from Colt has been rough around the edges.
Ah I see what your saying. I wasn't impressed with the Colts I was issued either. We were forced to over clean them and run them pretty dry and they didn't operate very well. I didn't know until after getting out that rifles ran well. With that said, on the consumer market they are the best rifle in that lower price range IMO.
Cagemonkey
06-14-15, 20:31
What a MisManaged Company. To think that some of the most popular arms produced for the US market currently are 1911's, AR15's and 45 Colt Peacemakers and that most of these aren't Colts is a shame. Seems they put most of their efforts into the Government Market.
Maybe Freedom group could turn them around?? I jest..
Company is/has been run by blithering idiots. Their past few years of SHOT show releases have been laughable.
How they continue to put clueless people at the helm is beyond belief.
What a MisManaged Company. To think that some of the most popular arms produced for the US market currently are 1911's, AR15's and 45 Colt Peacemakers and that most of these aren't Colts is a shame. Seems they put most of their efforts into the Government Market.
They did. And this is what happens when you put all your eggs in Uncle Sugar's basket.. Still, this may not be the end for Colt.. They could reorganize after bankruptcy, move south, tell the union to go **** themselves and start over. This time around maybe listen to what the consumer wants.. And, while they're at it maybe hire a CEO who has a ****ing clue..
I wouldn't pay for one of them, but I can appreciate their value ARs. I only care because I love my Colt Rail Gun and I would definitely pay for a 9mm one.
Hopefully HK is watching this and realizes gov't contracts won't keep you afloat. I think the VP9 and VP40 are the beginnings of that awakening.
Colt has made some very poor choices over the years and it's now coming back to roost. Their support of Clinton's AWB didn't do them any favors and other than the 1911 and the M4 they haven't done much else. Yes, they have their old revolvers that aren't built anymore and still produce some SA revolvers. They are what happens when a company over-invests in gov't contracts thinking they will always be there then the cash dries up or they lose the contract with almost no back-up plan.
I'd hate to see a gun company go under but maybe this is Colt's chance to pull it's head out from it's ass and regroup.
If they make the right decisions in bankruptcy they can come back stronger for sure. Most importantly they need new ownership, governance and officers who are more interested in making money selling firearms and reinvesting the profits in innovation than funneling the $ off to a hedge fund....
It's what happens when you sit on your hands with no innovation for years.
Gotta keep your reputation fresh, and focusing on military only with no innovation will kill it.
Digital_Damage
06-15-15, 09:44
I see this more as a move to purge the union and dissolve most of the pensions. They will relocate and come of bankruptcy in 2years max.
Edit:
I just read the filing and it has nothing to do with purging the Union. This is all about shelving the Debt so the company can be sold to Sciens Capital Management, it is clearly just a debt shell game. My guess is their are the same board members on both Asset companies. It think freedom group is heading to liquidate all firearm related companies from it portfolio.
Outlander Systems
06-15-15, 10:36
They could do a lot to remedy this.
1) Move to a non-communist state.
2) Kick the union to the curb.
3) Make QUALITY entry-level options to leverage against competitors.
4) Bring back the Python.
5) Bring back the Anaconda.
It's pretty simple. I imagine the unionized labor force is responsible for a large portion of their pricing. I don't doubt that Colt can produce an extremely high-quality product.
If I took over as CEO, the first thing I would do, after relocating, would be to tool-up for a stripped-down, vanilla G.I. model that Colt could sell for ~$500.00. This would absolutely dominate the absolute dog shit 1911s hanging out at this price point. I would recoup our costs by creating true, drop-in upgrades. Call it the Series 2000. Part of the QA checks before leaving the factory would be to measure components to ensure tolerances with the host gun didn't require gunsmithing to install the upgraded components like beavertails, safeties, triggers, hammers, etc.
I would simply turn the Colt 1911 into a modular, AR15-style platform.
Buying a GI 1911 would be the equivalent of purchasing a standard, no-frills/no-bullshit AR15. It would be a solid performer. I would set up my QA/QC to ensure that upgraded parts would universally fit into the host gun without additional machining/gunsmithing. This would allow me to corner the market in 1911s, which is already my bread and butter, and make it so that when customers are ready to upgrade/accessorize/queer-up their gun, they can order directly from Colt, and have a truly plug-and-play solution. I would offer two frames. A smooth dust-cover and a 1913 Picatinny rail. I would hire someone like LAV or KH to Beta-Test and offer consulting services on the Series 2000. I would torture test the absolute **** out of these prior to sending to market. If the results of testing were favorable, I would broadcast it to the world. If it wasn't, I'd get the consultants to un-**** the gun. Rinse and repeat.
There is no reason Colt couldn't rebrand/enhance the 1911, while simultaneously bringing its pricing down to reality to wedge out the competition. Hell, build a 1911 that could actually meet or exceed the Modular Handgun System requirements in the RFI. Get accepted by the .mil as the new service sidearm, and watch your gun sell itself for the next 20 years.
Sadly,
NONE of this will happen. Colt will get scooped up by an asset holding company. A bean counter will come in to increase margins. Expect more plastic mainspring housings. The quality of Colt will decline, but the pricing will remain the same. Eventually, Colt will be a name, and nothing more. Like Remington, Marlin, and AAC.
I see this more as a move to purge the union and dissolve most of the pensions. They will relocate and come of bankruptcy in 2years max.
Edit:
I just read the filing and it has nothing to do with purging the Union. This is all about shelving the Debt so the company can be sold to Sciens Capital Management, it is clearly just a debt shell game. My guess is their are the same board members on both Asset companies. It think freedom group is heading to liquidate all firearm related companies from it portfolio.
Then it looks like what I said above surely will not happen. This is all one big game to suck what little life remains of the company. My guess is they'll vampire out what value remains in the company and then do this all again as a liquidation in a few years, with the probability that Colt remains an ongoing concern being very low....
Outlander Systems
06-15-15, 11:08
Their past few years of SHOT show releases have been laughable.
PREEEEEEEEE-SENTING, the TOP of the line, Colt submission for the largest Firearms Industry Tradeshow in the known universe:
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/shot2015/large/DSC00690.jpg
Womp...waaaaaaa
sevenhelmet
06-15-15, 11:19
^^^I've never been to SHOT show, is that what they actually submitted?
Sounds like it's a good thing there are other quality companies on the market (DD, BCM, etc.). If I had to guess, Colt might end up going the way of Marlin, where the old ones are like a fine wine, and the new ones are just plain laughable.
This is what happens when you let a bunch of Wall Street 'investors' run (ruin) your company...
Outlander Systems
06-15-15, 11:26
^^^I've never been to SHOT show, is that what they actually submitted?
Sounds like it's a good thing there are other quality companies on the market (DD, BCM, etc.). If I had to guess, Colt might end up going the way of Marlin, where the old ones are like a fine wine, and the new ones are just plain laughable.
Yezzir.
In my restructuring model for Colt, I suggested a stripped down 1911. When I said stripped down, I mean a USGI model.
Colt's marketing team should've have been fired over that.
Doc Safari
06-15-15, 11:27
When they started selling their AR's through Wal-Mart at human being appropriate prices, I thought maybe they had finally seen the light. I hope Colt doesn't go the way of some other companies where people long for the old quality and won't touch a recently made gun.
Outlander Systems
06-15-15, 11:33
When they started selling their AR's through Wal-Mart at human being appropriate prices, I thought maybe they had finally seen the light. I hope Colt doesn't go the way of some other companies where people long for the old quality and won't touch a recently made gun.
Since they will NOT choose to kick the unions, and move out of state...nor go into R&D mode...this most likely outcome is a reduction In quality. Or someone buying the company for the name,; it will be the equivalent of a Colt-licensed AR15.
Or not come back at all. I am sure I will start a shit storm but I never understood the Colt worship expressed here. The old show ponies vs war horses mantra doesn't turn my crank. My long dead father's most remembered quote... "A girl that doesn't wash her hair probably doesn't wash her ass"
Worship is probably the wrong term. They are standard for a fighting gun (both 1911 and M16/M4). No one wants to see the standard go away.
If you don't like them, that's cool, but realize what they have given to us.
C4
brickboy240
06-15-15, 11:52
Both of my Colt ARs run like the devil. I'd buy another Colt AR in a heartbeat.
Colt's 1911 quality has come and gone in the past but there WERE some really nice Colt 1911s made...otherwise they would have never built their reputation at all.
I have owned a funky Colt 1911 but also have a few Colt 1911s that have been very good shooters.
YMMV
Outlander Systems
06-15-15, 11:56
Both of my Colt ARs run like the devil. I'd buy another Colt AR in a heartbeat.
Colt's 1911 quality has come and gone in the past but there WERE some really nice Colt 1911s made...otherwise they would have never built their reputation at all.
I have owned a funky Colt 1911 but also have a few Colt 1911s that have been very good shooters.
YMMV
The ONLY folks I'd buy a 1911 from again would be Colt and Wilson Combat.
Both my Kimbers were worth about as much as my opinion.
Colt makes great stuff. But they've reached the shit-or-get-off-the-pot point.
sevenhelmet
06-15-15, 11:59
I find it simply amazing that in this era of increasing firearm sales and panic buying that any major household name in firearms is going under.
brickboy240
06-15-15, 12:12
I'd throw Dan Wesson in that mix as well. The 1500 dollar Valor is an amazingly nice 1911 for the money.
the latest Colt 1911s i handled seemed very well put together. I still lust after one of those stainless Series 70 re-makes. They are dead sexy.
This chapter 11 is actually a good thing as Colt will now have money available for R&D and such (as the bulk of their debt will be gone). Currently, Colt has more money to spend on parts and development than ever before. This coupled with tons of foreign Military sales and US commercial business, there is actually a shortage of their products!
About 1.5 years ago, Colt started re-structuring their management team and this will be the group that will help them repair much of the damage done from the past.
C4
Outlander Systems
06-15-15, 12:33
This chapter 11 is actually a good thing as Colt will now have money available for R&D and such (as the bulk of their debt will be gone). Currently, Colt has more money to spend on parts and development than ever before. This coupled with tons of foreign Military sales and US commercial business, there is actually a shortage of their products!
About 1.5 years ago, Colt started re-structuring their management team and this will be the group that will help them repair much of the damage done from the past.
C4
Prior poor management is what got them in this mess.
What has saved them has been the use of quality as a competitive weapon.
Prior poor management is what got them in this mess.
What has saved them has been the use of quality as a competitive weapon.
Yes and they have been working on that for about 1 year now.
C4
WickedWillis
06-15-15, 13:09
PREEEEEEEEE-SENTING, the TOP of the line, Colt submission for the largest Firearms Industry Tradeshow in the known universe:
Womp...waaaaaaa
I think that whole platform is a fantastic idea honestly. It may not be shiny and new, but it fills a niche in the market.
PREEEEEEEEE-SENTING, the TOP of the line, Colt submission for the largest Firearms Industry Tradeshow in the known universe:
Womp...waaaaaaa
The OEM models were specifically speced to compete with BCMs offerings.
They are a step in the right direction.
I think that whole platform is a fantastic idea honestly. It may not be shiny and new, but it fills a niche in the market.
Agreed, though I think it it a little too high for what it is. So anyone have any guesses on how long it will take them to get everything straight?
BuzzinSATX
06-15-15, 13:23
Worship is probably the wrong term. They are standard for a fighting gun (both 1911 and M16/M4). No one wants to see the standard go away.
If you don't like them, that's cool, but realize what they have given to us.
C4
From my perspective, it's not worship, but rather more like nostalgia. Lots of us shot our first AR/M16 in the military, and that was a Colt. Likewise, their 1911 has always been a standard for the company, and many who entered service years ago, or whose parent/uncle/etc. did and came home with their old GI .45 have a soft spot for the Colt company.
But from everything I've read and seen on the company, they're a bastardized, debt laden shell of their former self. They may still turn out solid firearms, but have lacked a "gun culture" in the boardroom to the extent that they're simply a manufacturer whose been rode way too hard and put up wet....
I agree that a move to a gun friendly, right to work state could rekindle the fire, but I'd wager that simply won't happen with the current company leadership. They are playing politics with the Feds and Unions, and screwing debt holders, which will result in the cost of their future debt, assuming they can get it, killing them off for good.
I personally hopes free market forces prevail and the company gets shuttered and sold off for scraps, and that a gun culture savvy investor or company swoops in and buys the name for a song and rebuilds the brand with all the former glory of the old days.
Something like how Springfield Armory's name was branded by Robert Reece in 1974 into what we now know as Springfield Armory Inc.
IMHO, this great American firearms name deserves more respect and support than it will ever see being pimped out for Govt contracts by greedy suits in CT and NY.
Personally, I'd like to see Magpul buy them and bring them under their stellar management team.
Take Care,
Buzz
Agreed, though I think it it a little too high for what it is. So anyone have any guesses on how long it will take them to get everything straight?
It has actually already started. Examples:
1. New management team
2. Unified Colt Commercial and Defense
3. Parts are available (and growing)
4. Commercial Distributors can order NFA
5. Lower prices on 1911's and AR15's
From a financial standpoint/Chapt 11, I would guestimate about 90-120 days for all to be settled. In the meantime, business will be as usual.
C4
From my perspective, it's not worship, but rather more like nostalgia. Lots of us shot our first AR/M16 in the military, and that was a Colt. Likewise, their 1911 has always been a standard for the company, and many who entered service years ago, or whose parent/uncle/etc. did and came home with their old GI .45 have a soft spot for the Colt company.
But from everything I've read and seen on the company, they're a bastardized, debt laden shell of their former self. They may still turn out solid firearms, but have lacked a "gun culture" in the boardroom to the extent that they're simply a manufacturer whose been rode way too hard and put up wet….
That problem ended about 1.5 years ago and continues to improve.
Personally, I'd like to see Magpul buy them and bring them under their stellar management team.
Never happen (to much coin). Colt pretty much already has a buyer as it stands right now.
C4
I personally hopes free market forces prevail and the company gets shuttered and sold off for scraps, and that a gun culture savvy investor or company swoops in and buys the name for a song and rebuilds the brand with all the former glory of the old days.
Something like how Springfield Armory's name was branded by Robert Reece in 1974 into what we now know as Springfield Armory Inc.
IMHO, this great American firearms name deserves more respect and support than it will ever see being pimped out for Govt contracts by greedy suits in CT and NY.
Personally, I'd like to see Magpul buy them and bring them under their stellar management team.
Or Paul B.
It has actually already started. Examples:
1. New management team
2. Unified Colt Commercial and Defense
3. Parts are available (and growing)
4. Commercial Distributors can order NFA
5. Lower prices on 1911's and AR15's
From a financial standpoint/Chapt 11, I would guestimate about 90-120 days for all to be settled. In the meantime, business will be as usual.
C4
Hopefully. I just want a damn CRG in 9mm. I'm starting to talk about it in threads that have nothing to do with Colt or 1911s...
Outlander Systems
06-15-15, 13:56
Or Paul B.
I didn't state it, but don't think that didn't cross my mind.
Colt's management could learn A LOT from Paul.
Flankenstein
06-15-15, 14:10
Can we get a thread merge please?
BuzzinSATX
06-15-15, 14:21
That problem ended about 1.5 years ago and continues to improve.
Never happen (to much coin). Colt pretty much already has a buyer as it stands right now.
C4
Thanks for the insights. I truly hope the brand regains their former success through positive management and company leadership.
Take Care,
Buzz
BuzzinSATX
06-15-15, 14:25
I didn't state it, but don't think that didn't cross my mind.
Colt's management could learn A LOT from Paul.
Any company can learn a lot from BCM.
Provide a high quality product at a fair price, back it up with outstanding customer service and support, and refuse to cut corners or sell sub-par product.
It can really be summed up in one word:
INTEGRITY!
Take Care,
Buzz
Amp Mangum
06-15-15, 14:26
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/behind-colts-bankruptcy-financial-engineering-that-backfired/ar-BBlb4My
Outlander Systems
06-15-15, 17:12
Any company can learn a lot from BCM.
Provide a high quality product at a fair price, back it up with outstanding customer service and support, and refuse to cut corners or sell sub-par product.
It can really be summed up in one word:
INTEGRITY!
Take Care,
Buzz
It REALLY IS that simple.
Colt as we see it now and in the past is the gold standard for some platforms. That doesn't mean that improvements can't be made, or issues for that matter. Colt now has a rare opportunity to improve in a direction that has been better recently than years before. That direction could come around to improve many things and come out better, but it may do otherwise. It is outside the scope of our discussions as to what way they will go, it isn't up to us.
Digital_Damage
06-16-15, 06:37
Colt as we see it now and in the past is the gold standard for some platforms. That doesn't mean that improvements can't be made, or issues for that matter. Colt now has a rare opportunity to improve in a direction that has been better recently than years before. That direction could come around to improve many things and come out better, but it may do otherwise. It is outside the scope of our discussions as to what way they will go, it isn't up to us.
Gold standard? when 15 years ago?
They Should have followed Leupold and realized they were no longer relevant from an offering stand point and got innovating.
Gold standard? when 15 years ago?
They Should have followed Leupold and realized they we not longer relevant from an offering stand point and got innovating.
For a known, quality fighting gun, they are still the gold standard (especially for what they sell for now). The truth is, that during any kind of Panic buying (election years, mass shootings, etc), Colt AR's bring a much higher premium than any other AR manufacturer. During Sandy Hook, it was normal to see LE6920's sell for $3k! That means that the general consumer believes they are the standard.
If things go as planned, Colt will have capital to put into R&D (something they haven't had in a long time) which should in turn produce some interesting things.
C4
Voodoochild
06-16-15, 11:37
For a known, quality fighting gun, they are still the gold standard (especially for what they sell for now). The truth is, that during any kind of Panic buying (election years, mass shootings, etc), Colt AR's bring a much higher premium than any other AR manufacturer. During Sandy Hook, it was normal to see LE6920's sell for $3k! That means that the general consumer believes they are the standard.
If things go as planned, Colt will have capital to put into R&D (something they haven't had in a long time) which should in turn produce some interesting things.
C4
I ever tell the story about the Zen master and the little boy... We'll see...
Gold standard? when 15 years ago?
They Should have followed Leupold and realized they we not longer relevant from an offering stand point and got innovating.
Spot On.
And getting a barrel nut that was installed Barely past Hand-Tight is not exactly confidence Inspiring... not the greatest QC in the world. And upper to lower fit that is just plain embarrassing....
And 16" CLGS? No thanks... not when there is: KAC/Noveske/DD/BCM/Sionics etc
Spot On.
And getting a barrel nut that was installed Barely past Hand-Tight is not exactly confidence Inspiring... not the greatest QC in the world. And upper to lower fit that is just plain embarrassing....
And 16" CLGS? No thanks... not when there is: KAC/Noveske/DD/BCM/Sionics etc
Just to be fair, I can go down the list of companies you list and give you an error that was made by them on a firearm. No company is perfect and when dealing with employees, anything is possible. If I didn't buy a companies product because they put out a few lemons, I would own ZERO FIREARMS.
There are LOT'S of good AR companies out there and in many instances, the make a "nicer" product. None of them match Colt's prices though.
C4
Just to be fair, I can go down the list of companies you list and give you an error that was made by them on a firearm. No company is perfect and when dealing with employees, anything is possible. If I didn't buy a companies product because they put out a few lemons, I would own ZERO FIREARMS.
There are LOT'S of good AR companies out there and in many instances, the make a "nicer" product. None of them match Colt's prices though.
C4
I cannot disagree with anything you just said, Grant.
I'm not trying to say they are the worst out there, by any means.
I just think the companies I previously listed bring a little more to the table.
The "Leupold" example that Digital Damage mentioned above really resonated with me... however, Leupold did finally take notice and catch on, with the release of their Mark 6/8 line.
I hope Colt can get their Act together, I really do. I have almost put them in the same boat as Glock, me personally... essentially I've written them off and no longer recommend them anymore, albeit with Caveats/Warnings.
*Addendum... almost forgot, handled a new 6920 off the shelf at the LGS a few days back, and the Safety Selector was bound and felt like trash... it's just been each time I've dealt with them, I seem to find something.
I'll even mention DD to be fair... my same LGS (a big one in KY) had DD Rifles that had Castle Nuts that weren't even staked, at all. Pretty sad.
And why not BCM while I'm at it... Two Warranty issues (complete uppers) in a row, first one was replaced, but it's replacement came to me with a different warranty issue... really shook my faith in them... but anything man-made can fail or make it out the door with an issue.
I cannot say that has happened to me with KAC or Noveske, however. But I'm just one guy out of many on here, and apparently I'm a Warranty Magnet when I buy New Firearms. YMMV
I Don't think these last two Huge Panic Events (2008 & 2012) did anything to help improve a Companies QC...of course I'm generalizing.
I could start a thread on Ford Warranty Nightmares, but I digress.
*** enough justification to warrant being your own QC dept. by building your own, with premium parts (obviously relying on those Mfgrs. to turn out in-spec parts), or QC checking Assembly Procedures (uppers, lowers, rifles etc)
No one should care more about your stuff than you do... hence you can be anal retentive and take as much time and care as you want to assure success. I can no longer honestly put blind faith into a Firearm Companies "name" and "reputation". I don't even know if Trust, but verify applies here... hard to trust when you've been let down soo many times... but obviously verification is a MUST.
I just think the companies I previously listed bring a little more to the table.
And they very well may be, but at nearly double the cost (in some instances). So you have to compare apples to apples when recommending one brand against another.
C4
I haven't seen this brought up yet but with Colt filing for Chapter 11 will the keep ownership of the TDP or is it up for grabs now?
Voodoochild
06-16-15, 16:38
I am surprised FNH wouldn't be jumping on the chance to buy all the TDP and IP. Would certainly be a strong power move.
Digital_Damage
06-16-15, 16:46
I am surprised FNH wouldn't be jumping on the chance to buy all the TDP and IP. Would certainly be a strong power move.
Might happen
Sciens Capital Management is just acting as a stalking horse bidder.
Digital_Damage
06-16-15, 17:00
Just read the entire filling... and wow. The Stones on that CEO is dumb founding...
They will seek Chapter 7 if The CEO is removed, Union contract is altered, the courts do not forgive 250 million in unsecured bonds and forgive the $70 million debt they have with Morgan Stanley.
Essentially the CEO is seeking the complete elimination of all burden except to Vendors and demands to keep his job... that he failed at.
The_War_Wagon
06-16-15, 17:01
I think Colt should join Beretta and others and head South.
Are they still trying to make a go of it in CT?!?! :eek:
Are they still trying to make a go of it in CT?!?! :eek:
Any plan that keeps them there is a bad, bad...bad...plan.
Mr.Anderson
06-16-15, 18:03
The financial aspect of Colt is in honesty, over my head.
What I will comment on though is kinda what I've seen mentioned already.
Being I come from an 'uninformed' civi buyer, I made the mistake of buying an 'other' than MILSPEC (despite what the claim was! - Stag Arms).
At the time Barry was in his first term and prices were going up. So I told the wife we really need to buy an AR.
Went to a LGS and the Stag was the least expensive of them all (at the time) for like $850.
So we bought it.
Fast forward to M4C, lots of corrective learning later.
My point is, when the UNINFORMED AR BUYER (the majority of 'common folk') out in the world go into a LGS, that most likely won't carry Colts, BCM, DD, KAC, LMT, Noveske, etc - and if they do, they will be $400-500+ more than say the DPMS or Oly, Stag, etc.
Joe 6 pack will buy the cheaper of them all, in every aspect.
I feel, again, coming from being an uninformed prior AR buyer, that Colt and the others, have not done a real good job reaching the average person and showing them WHY their gun is superior in every aspect.
So of course when Joe goes into the LGS and Bubba sells him the DPMS (isn't that what a "GOV. agency uses"?? line included) and tells him it's MILSPEC GTG and just as good as the Colt on the wall - which is for snobs and toppers, Colt will lose that sale.
I hope Colt continue to makes good AR's because I would like to be the proud owner of one in 5.56 one day.
But they really need to make people aware of why they are better and should be purchased over etc al.
Because I learned, here, that all AR's are NOT the same. Too late.
Flankenstein
06-16-15, 18:23
^Yes... or people could take personal responsibility and do independent research for themselves instead of listing to "bubba" or "highspeed LGS operator"...
...Ha! Just kidding, I know that is asking way too much.
That's the problem. Some of the DERP in this thread has been strong.
The problem is idiots buy RRA or DPMS or whatever pet brand and think because Colt milspec anodizing is somehow sign of poor fit and finish. Then you have guys wanting modular piecemeal 1911s from Colt. You guys don't know what you don't know. And that's why Colt doesn't make money.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You guys don't know what you don't know. And that's why Colt doesn't make money.
Is there any remote chance that there might be a tad more to it than that...?
Besides the management that's already been thoroughly outlined? They can't figure out how to sell the the masses that want pretty over quality. Uncle sugar has cut back and now they have to sell to people who think 1911s should be modular.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So Colt not making money is not their own fault? Ok, good to know.
Colt is not going to live or die on the existence of a mid-length in their product line.
Again, most people do not have a clue what a mid-length gas system is and most people do not need one.
^exactly.
When you see somebody drop Colt on your average gun forum you get "not as good as kimber" or "too expensive because RIA and Springfield". Then you see talk of their ARs all you hear is "they are all the same you just pay for the name" or "the finish sucks so it means the gun sucks".
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Colt is not going to live or die on the existence of a mid-length in their product line.
Again, most people do not have a clue what a mid-length gas system is and most people do not need one.
Truer words have never been spoken! I recently purchased a 6720 barrel from Brownell's that I did a build on as well as a 6720 itself. Don't recall fretting over whether it was a mid-length or not. Jeesh.....
Just to be fair, I can go down the list of companies you list and give you an error that was made by them on a firearm. No company is perfect and when dealing with employees, anything is possible. If I didn't buy a companies product because they put out a few lemons, I would own ZERO FIREARMS.
There are LOT'S of good AR companies out there and in many instances, the make a "nicer" product. None of them match Colt's prices though.
C4
In fairness it's only been in the last year or so that Colt prices have made it's products the greatest value in name-brand quality AR's. In recent years prior they were *somewhat* pricey but still less than, say, a Noveske or Knight's. These are the "days of wine and roses" as far as AR buying is concerned.
I guess I don't understand.....
Pretty much every time I open any gun forum, but especially this one and one other, I read posts regarding those with the 'entitlement mindset'........
Then Colt files for Chapter 11.......
Now I'm hearing 'poor Colt, sure their quality is down but look at the prices, it's the best bargain for the buck' and 'don't worry, once Colt gets rid of their debt, they'll be back stronger than ever'......
Seems a little inconsistent. Am I wrong, or are we okay with picking winners and losers as long as they are the ones we want to win?
Colt's demise will not impact the security of the US one iota, there are plenty of manufacturers who can produce Mil-Spec M4's. I believe the M-1, the M-1 Carbine and the M-14 were all harder to manufacture than the M16, yet throughout WWII, Korea and the Cold War, numerous manufacturers, as diverse as Springfield Armory, International Harvester, Winchester, Harrington and Richardson, GM (Inland), IBM, Singer, Underwood, and Rock-Ola, managed to produce those machined receivers and, to me anyways, more complex firing mechanisms. In the end it just boils down to manufacturing AND quality control.
Here's my take - in terms of QC, Colt is a victim of the widespread enmity between worker and employer. I've been doing the gun thing for over 30 years. When I attended my first S&W, Remington and Ruger armorer course, they were taught by guys who had built those guns for decades, rising through the ranks from assembler, to final finish, to warranty repair - they were craftsmen, and the guys working for those three in particular bled S&w, Remington or Ruger, they were company men through and through even though they were also union members. That has changed and Colt, with it's limited product line, and mismanagement, is just the latest victim.
As the 'specialty' manufacturers expand to production on the scale of a Colt or S&W they will encounter the same problems unless they are successful in building a loyal workforce that has the company's name tattooed on their rear. It's easier to do when you have 20 folks working for you, a lot harder when you have a couple hundred a shift.
Let Colt go.
JM .02
Mr.Anderson
06-16-15, 23:44
26 Inf
You are right about the quality of workers these days and having true dedication to the company.
I experience the same thing from some guys at work.
In fact, I was just having the conversation the other day, and I had to state what came first? The employee not giving his best? Or the employer dumping on the employee and not really caring about him?
IMO, they work best, together. One most care about the other.
It's hard to find that.. from both employee and employer. It's a damn shame too.
I'm sure your post has much to do with it. Then compound that with gross mismanagement at the top (yes, I'm generalizing because it does seem to be happening in 'general' in Corp's) of funds and well, what do ya know, company is bankrupt.
Won't stop CEO's, etc, from taking big expensive trips and purchases. At least, it didn't during the bailout here a few years back.
SSDD
A reckoning is inevitable.
Just read the entire filling... and wow. The Stones on that CEO is dumb founding...
They will seek Chapter 7 if The CEO is removed, Union contract is altered, the courts do not forgive 250 million in unsecured bonds and forgive the $70 million debt they have with Morgan Stanley.
Essentially the CEO is seeking the complete elimination of all burden except to Vendors and demands to keep his job... that he failed at.
Shows just how stupid they all are. That is absurd.
At this point, I say let 'em fry.
Of course, someone like an investment firm / private equity can buy them, then do whatever the hell they want once they own them.
I'd gut it and reboot.
Doc Safari
06-17-15, 09:17
I just had a horrifying vision: Colt goes the way of Smith & Wesson and a year from now you can't get an AR without a stupid trigger lock imbedded in the receiver.
:haha:
In fairness it's only been in the last year or so that Colt prices have made it's products the greatest value in name-brand quality AR's. In recent years prior they were *somewhat* pricey but still less than, say, a Noveske or Knight's. These are the "days of wine and roses" as far as AR buying is concerned.
Kind of true I think. They only lowered their AR's by about $100. So if a 6721 is now selling for $799, it was $899 last year. That was STILL an excellent value and cheaper than anything else on the market (for the same quality).
C4
I don't think people realize this, but Colt is and has been out of inventory for all of this year. Sales are up and they just won a large foreign contract:
Colt Defense LLC, West Hartford, Connecticut, was awarded a $36,104,812 firm-fixed-price, indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity foreign military sales contract (Jordan, Antigua and Barbuda, Belize, Colombia, Hungary, Oman, Panama, Romania, Senegal, Lebanon, Romania) for M4/M4A1 carbines. Funding and work location will be determined with each order with an estimated completion date of May 21, 2018. Bids were solicited via the Internet with one received. Army Contracting Command, Warren, Michigan, is the contracting activity (W56HZV-15-D-0038).
We have a hell of a time getting 1911's and AR's out of them and we are a direct distributor! So sales and making money won't be their "problem" going forward.
C4
The actual number of guns purchased under the terms of those firm-fixed-price, indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contracts could be quite lower than the number specified. I don't see this order as a life saver for Colt.
The actual number of guns purchased under the terms of those firm-fixed-price, indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contracts could be quite lower than the number specified. I don't see this order as a life saver for Colt.
Didn't imply that it was, but Colt is actually doing well in both the commercial sales arena AND internationally.
C4
brickboy240
06-17-15, 10:14
I would really hate to see them go under (...and don't think they will).
Judging by the 2 Colt ARs I own...I'd gladly buy a third.
The 6920 at around 1080 bucks and the 6720 at around 800 are really the bargains of the AR world, if you ask me. So much quality for not much more than the iffy brands.
Doc Safari
06-17-15, 10:17
So, I'm reading this that there might conceivably be a shortage of Colt M4's soon?
Or do we live in a world where they have enough production capacity so we won't see any difference?
I noticed Wal-Mart was selling 6920's locally for $957 and change.
I recently acquired a 6721 for $880 at an out-of-town mom-and-pop gun shop. I was happy as a clam that I got one for less than what Wal-Mart charges for a 6920.
Will there be a price increase as Colt has to balance the demands of the consumer market versus the military contracts?
Didn't imply that it was, but Colt is actually doing well in both the commercial sales arena AND internationally.
C4
FWIW, I'm a fan of Colt products. I hope it works out for them. In spite of newer designs, in later years the M4 (and clones) have gained widespread use everywhere, and Colt has an excellent reputation. Sadly some .mil/LE contracts around here in South America sometimes end up with other makers (other than Colt or other top notch brand) due to maneuvers from inside people who manipulate the contracts.
Eurodriver
06-17-15, 18:44
There is so much fail in this thread about Colts financial status.
Has anyone even read their 2014 10-K?
Voodoochild
06-17-15, 21:12
There is so much fail in this thread about Colts financial status.
Has anyone even read their 2014 10-K?
Feel free to enlighten us all.
Eurodriver
06-18-15, 05:55
Feel free to enlighten us all.
I can't say anything more than is in their K and Q's.
But if you read them, you'll quickly see why Colt is in the pickle they've been in - defined pension plans and shitty leadership.
Really, how do you lose $20,000,000 in net sales but your cost of sales remains the same?
The folks saying it has to do with their quality or product offerings aren't seeing the big picture.
Outlander Systems
06-18-15, 06:31
I can't say anything more than is in their K and Q's.
But if you read them, you'll quickly see why Colt is in the pickle they've been in - defined pension plans and shitty leadership.
My grandmother worked for the water department. She retired at 55. She collected a pension for 39 years that was larger than my annual salary at the time.
That's what we call, unsustainable.
Eurodriver
06-18-15, 06:38
My grandmother worked for the water department. She retired at 55. She collected a pension for 39 years that was larger than my annual salary at the time.
That's what we call, unsustainable.
I was reading one of their 10-Qs yesterday. I think it was Q3 FY14. I'm grossly simplifying but their pension costs are higher than the wages of all their hourly employees. In that same quarter, their net sales gross profit margin was like 1.5%. I'll have to look and see if that's an industry standard, but it seems awfully low for a manufacturing company that has $465,000,000 in unsecured pension plan liabilities.
From their 8K released Monday:
As part of the Sciens led bid, Colt will be able reassure its employees and local community of its commitment to continued operations in West Hartford through a long term extension on the lease for its manufacturing facilities and campus in West Hartford.
AKA: "We're just going to keep doing the same thing and expect things to get better."
Shitty leadership.
Outlander Systems
06-18-15, 06:51
$465,000,000 in unsecured pension plan liabilities.
Shitty leadership.
This, FTW.
When I see stuff like this...
Look, who is the economics genius that thought pensions were a good idea?
If you're a .gov employee, you're eating my tax money.
If you're a .civ employee, you are creating a parasitical dynamic with your employer. That's the employer's problem. Stupid games/stupid prizes and all that razzmatazz.
Before anyone gets their panties in a twist, I'm not referring to military pensions. There's a difference between putting your life on the line, and working at the Water Dept., or spending a month in DC out of the year to vote for whatever your campaign financiers pay you to vote for.
Pensions are a ****ing bad idea, no matter how you look at it.
No economics genius thought pension were a good idea. Blame that on union labor. Union labor destroys companies; sucks them dry.
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Mr.Anderson
06-18-15, 10:41
There is so much fail in this thread about Colts financial status.
Has anyone even read their 2014 10-K?
Have not read it. But like I said...
...compound that with gross mismanagement at the top (yes, I'm generalizing because it does seem to be happening in 'general' in Corp's) of funds and well, what do ya know, company is bankrupt.
Won't stop CEO's, etc, from taking big expensive trips and purchases. At least, it didn't during the bailout here a few years back.
Seems to be the way of Big Money & Big Power.
And that would be fine. For them. But it seems someone is always there to bail them out at someone else's expense when their greed destroys everything that gave them the financial ability.
@Outlander Systems;
I understand what you're saying. IMO, pensions, SS, etc are vital. We can't just throw people away (whether they were ever .mil or not) when they have passed their 'prime'.
It could be said that people need to be saving for their retirement. It's true. We all are/should. But add in the devaluation of the Federal Reserve Note, stale pay grades, and you could retire with a savings that might not be able to sustain you.
Getting off topic here, I know. So I'll digress by saying that under proper leadership there is no way a Nation that WAS as prosperous as this Nation couldn't take care of it's elders, sick and infirmed.
But when the Nation is ran like many of these Corporations the same thing happens to the Nation. I'm certain I'm preaching to the choir here though judging by some of your previous posts. Cheers
Outlander Systems
06-18-15, 11:54
We may have to utilize significant cash to meet our unfunded pension obligations, and postretirement health care liabilities and these obligations are subject to increase.
Many of our employees at our West Hartford facility participate in our defined benefit pension plans. Under the terms of our current collective bargaining agreement, the accrual of benefits for employees participating in our bargaining unit pension plan was frozen effective December 31, 2012. We also have a salaried pension plan. The accrual of benefits for employees participating in the salaried plan was frozen effective December 31, 2008. At December 31, 2013, our aggregate unfunded pension liability totaled $1.7 million. Declines in interest rates or the market values of the securities held by the plans, or other adverse changes, could materially increase the underfunded status of our plans and affect the level and timing of required cash contributions. To the extent we use cash to reduce these unfunded liabilities, the amount of cash available for our working capital needs would be reduced. Under the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974, as amended, (“ERISA”) the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (“PBGC”), has the authority to terminate an underfunded tax-qualified pension plan under limited circumstances. In the event our tax-qualified pension plans are terminated by the PBGC, we could be liable to the PBGC for the underfunded amount.
Source: Colt 10-K
Judge them by their fruits. Participation in a Union is a victim-based ideology. It's a symptom of an entitlement mentality.
On a side note, with almost $5,000,000 a year spent on R&D, I would have expected some significant, improved, and unique products.
No economics genius thought pension were a good idea. Blame that on union labor. Union labor destroys companies; sucks them dry.
The only way it works is if there's no competition, if the consumer has nowhere else to go. US industry post WWII was like this. Every other place on the planet was either blown to pieces, a 3rd world hole or both. If you wanted something made, there was no place to make it but the US. So the unions could suck $$ out of the corporations and the corporations could suck it out of the consumer and there was no place for the consumer to go because all the corps were basically doing the same thing. When the rest of the world rebuilt and competition sprang up again, suddenly consumers had a place to go and things went downhill...
The only way it works is if there's no competition, if the consumer has nowhere else to go. US industry post WWII was like this. Every other place on the planet was either blown to pieces, a 3rd world hole or both. If you wanted something made, there was no place to make it but the US. So the unions could suck $$ out of the corporations and the corporations could suck it out of the consumer and there was no place for the consumer to go because all the corps were basically doing the same thing. When the rest of the world rebuilt and competition sprang up again, suddenly consumers had a place to go and things went downhill...
^^^Probably the best, simple explanation of the decline of manufacturing in the U.S. within the last 40 yrs..
brickboy240
06-18-15, 16:10
Yes to above...AND...since WWII, govt has made it harder and more expensive to make anything in America. Check out our corporate tax rate, versus many foreign countries. Throw in all the regulations, licenses, etc. that also have cropped up since the end of WWII.
These factors also were catalysts that made our manufacturing world what it is today. Competition from outside America coupled with govt making it harder and more expensive to make things at home.
Eurodriver
06-18-15, 17:13
^^^Probably the best, simple explanation of the decline of manufacturing in the U.S. within the last 40 yrs..
Indeed.
There is so much fail in this thread about Colts financial status.
Has anyone even read their 2014 10-K?
Colt never filed their 10-K for 2014, nor a 10-Q for the 1st Quarter of this year.
Flankenstein
06-21-15, 18:45
Colt never filed their 10-K for 2014, nor a 10-Q for the 1st Quarter of this year.
Plot twist...
Eurodriver
06-21-15, 20:15
Colt never filed their 10-K for 2014, nor a 10-Q for the 1st Quarter of this year.
Plot twist...
Exactly. ;)
They are too busy amending their Qs and Ks from 13/14, and they are showing serious issues with gross margin.
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