View Full Version : Marine Raiders are officially back
Doc. Holiday
06-19-15, 11:56
I thought this was an interesting article. Basically saying that they are officially bring the Marine Raiders team back. Sounds like it may be a step up from MARSOC (if I read and understood correctly).
http://news.yahoo.com/rangers-seals-now-raiders-marines-resurrect-historic-name-084554038.html
Doc. Holiday
06-19-15, 12:10
Ah, gotcha. I miss read the paragraph then. I saw it state that MARSOC marines have to endure grueling swims and hikes, etc I mistook it as those in MARSOC have to do even more to be a raider. I reread it and makes sense.
This happened a while back. http://archive.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20140806/NEWS/308060054/MARSOC-units-renamed-Marine-Raiders, Yahoo is behind the times
I'm not sure it was official until today. http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/06/19/return-of-the-raiders-marine-legends-attend-marsoc-renaming-event/29000153/
Moose-Knuckle
06-20-15, 00:42
Raider patch in PVC anyone?
Commemorative patch of the USMC Raider Battlions
In January 1942, the Commandant of the Marine Corps issued orders to form the 1st Separate Battalion, under the command of LtCol Merritt Edson. The mission of the Separate Battalion was to be a light force capable of spearheading amphibious invasions, conducting direct action raids, and fighting as a guerilla force behind enemy lines. Their organization and training were based on the experiences of the British Commandos, as well as the personal observations of Edson in his battles with Nicaraguan guerillas and another officer, Major Evans Carlson’s observations of the Chinese guerilla battles against the Japanese.
http://www.refactortactical.com/usmc-raider-patch/
The Raiders of WWII were roughly equivalent to the Ranger BN's. Maybe the USMC is trying to have it's own Ranger-like infantry units? i.e. not necessarily small teams but larger, company or battalion sized elements?
The Raiders of WWII were roughly equivalent to the Ranger BN's. Maybe the USMC is trying to have it's own Ranger-like infantry units? i.e. not necessarily small teams but larger, company or battalion sized elements?
No, this is just a renaming of MARSOC, and their mission which is very different in a lot of ways than the Raiders of old.
http://warontherocks.com/2014/06/understanding-the-marine-corps-special-operators/
The Raiders of WWII were roughly equivalent to the Ranger BN's. Maybe the USMC is trying to have it's own Ranger-like infantry units? i.e. not necessarily small teams but larger, company or battalion sized elements?
I've always thought the Ranger Bn's were the Army's attempt to have a Marine-like force.
Just kidding, but that got me 5 points with Chesty and Smedley.
I've always thought the Ranger Bn's were the Army's attempt to have a Marine-like force.
Just kidding, but that got me 5 points with Chesty and Smedley.
They are a Marine-like force, the biggest difference is that they have Money. Which is why they are nothing like the Marine Corps:D
They are a Marine-like force, the biggest difference is that they have Money. Which is why they are nothing like the Marine Corps:D
Yeppers.
I've always thought the Ranger Bn's were the Army's attempt to have a Marine-like force.
Just kidding, but that got me 5 points with Chesty and Smedley.
Thanks for the smile! Money makes a huge difference. The amount of training they can do with funding make all the difference.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/06/19/return-of-the-raiders-marine-legends-attend-marsoc-renaming-event/29000153/
They are a Marine-like force, the biggest difference is that they have Money. Which is why they are nothing like the Marine Corps:D
Puhlease, spare me! Regular 0311 Marine line infantry units are the same as a Ranger batt? Ooookay.......:rolleyes: Keep telling yourself that!
I'd say the Raiders of old were similar to the Ranger batts, MARSOC to SF, etc., and line grunts to line grunts in either service.
I won't argue the money part however.
Puhlease, spare me! Regular 0311 Marine line infantry units are the same as a Ranger batt? Ooookay.......:rolleyes: Keep telling yourself that!
I'd say the Raiders of old were similar to the Ranger batts, MARSOC to SF, etc., and line grunts to line grunts in either service.
I won't argue the money part however.
Do I think that the Rangers are anything like a 03 Marine, no. Not at all. The Rangers do share in the outlook of a smaller, light weight force that deploys rapidly in a moments notice, which is very much in line with the mission of the Fleet Marine Force, but again, the Money and the training have a good amount to do with the differences, and of course the biggest difference is the secured in the Branches themselves, as Marines we believe in Small unit leadership, which is something that the Army wants but doesn't instill like we do.
Do I think that the Rangers are anything like a 03 Marine, no. Not at all. The Rangers do share in the outlook of a smaller, light weight force that deploys rapidly in a moments notice, which is very much in line with the mission of the Fleet Marine Force, but again, the Money and the training have a good amount to do with the differences, and of course the biggest difference is the secured in the Branches themselves, as Marines we believe in Small unit leadership, which is something that the Army wants but doesn't instill like we do.
Fair enough. In agreement on all points.
Hey, I was Airborne Infantry and that was "hooaahh" enough for me! No way I would've wanted to live a grueling, Cretan lifestyle in a Ranger batt. There's a fine line between hardcore and stupidity, and while regular infantry units certainly cross it from time to time (Marine ones too I'm sure) the Rangers live primarily on one side of that line! Not a slam on Rangers at all as my hat's off to anyone who lives that life, especially guys who spend most of a career there. I shudder to think of that!
My reaction, without reading the article, was "Oh, the Marines want an uber-infantry/commando unit of sufficient size to perform Ranger battalion style missions". Recon operates in much smaller elements than I was thinking of (I was thinking at least company size). Guess it's still pretty cool they want to rename MARSOC after such a storied unit. The heritage is certainly there.
My reaction, without reading the article, was "Oh, the Marines want an uber-infantry/commando unit of sufficient size to perform Ranger battalion style missions". Recon operates in much smaller elements than I was thinking of (I was thinking at least company size). Guess it's still pretty cool they want to rename MARSOC after such a storied unit. The heritage is certainly there.
And while I think that is what most people will think of MARSOC/ Raiders, the truth is that their primary mission is the training of Foreign Soldiers in Foreign Internal Defense. However, they are training in Unconventional Warfare, which has been the Green Beret's bread and butter, combine this with them pulling a good amount of people from Force Recon and all the stealth that involves and now you don't have a door kicking assault force, instead you have a bunch of ghosts that can blend in and train the local populace, and that is bada$$. Think of ISIS dealing with their own home grown domestic terrorits. Puts a smile on my face.
sniperfrog
06-21-15, 14:00
And while I think that is what most people will think of MARSOC/ Raiders, the truth is that their primary mission is the training of Foreign Soldiers in Foreign Internal Defense. However, they are training in Unconventional Warfare, which has been the Green Beret's bread and butter, combine this with them pulling a good amount of people from Force Recon and all the stealth that involves and now you don't have a door kicking assault force, instead you have a bunch of ghosts that can blend in and train the local populace, and that is bada$$. Think of ISIS dealing with their own home grown domestic terrorits. Puts a smile on my face.
That sounds really cool but isn't really what's happening with MarSoc. They're still not allowed to grow beards or grow their hair out so it makes it hard to blend in with anyone but other Marines.
From what I understand Marsoc is more like an SF group not a Ranger Batt. They have teams that do FID and teams that do direct action, recon, etc... But they don't seam to have relaxed standards like SF. The big USMC has never liked having units that were considered more "elite". That's why the WW2 Raiders were disbanded.
What I don't understand is how they already have 2500+ in Marsoc. The units only been around for 9-10 years.
dwhitehorne
06-21-15, 17:09
What I don't understand is how they already have 2500+ in Marsoc. The units only been around for 9-10 years.
I wonder if that is counting the support units also. With the attrition rate alone they would have to be pumping out some serious numbers of classes to get those numbers. David
LowSpeed_HighDrag
06-21-15, 17:34
That sounds really cool but isn't really what's happening with MarSoc. They're still not allowed to grow beards or grow their hair out so it makes it hard to blend in with anyone but other Marines.
From what I understand Marsoc is more like an SF group not a Ranger Batt. They have teams that do FID and teams that do direct action, recon, etc... But they don't seam to have relaxed standards like SF. The big USMC has never liked having units that were considered more "elite". That's why the WW2 Raiders were disbanded.
What I don't understand is how they already have 2500+ in Marsoc. The units only been around for 9-10 years.
Are you talking from a place of experience? I have seen plenty of bearded MARSOC pipehitters that blend in quite well to even a foreign civilian populace....
Think about it: given the size of the Corps as compared to the Army, you wouldn't need three Raider BN's. Maybe one BN, with two companies on the West coast, and two on the East coast. Not forward deployed like a MEU, but based CONUS. However, like the Ranger batts they'd be air-deployable within a few hours (rotate the "on-call" status among the four companies). They could also be used as "hired guns" for the other Delta-ish MARSOC elements, like the Rangers do for Delta and DEVGRU. Of course they could also be called upon by Delta or DEVGRU if they were available or in the AO and Rangers weren't for whatever reason. You basically be adding another Ranger (Raider in this case) unit to JSOC's toolbox.
I remember reading years ago when Creighton Abrams re-activated the Rangers he was quoted as saying he wanted a unit that "out Marined, the Marines"
When MarSoc was standing up, SOCOM wanted a unit that could work closely with the SEALs and in reality compliment to them allowing them to concentrate on DA and MARSOC do most of the other SF tasks plus provide Intel, fires, aviation support
In the end, the Marines stood it with Force who were mostly shooters.
That sounds really cool but isn't really what's happening with MarSoc. They're still not allowed to grow beards or grow their hair out so it makes it hard to blend in with anyone but other Marines.
From what I understand Marsoc is more like an SF group not a Ranger Batt. They have teams that do FID and teams that do direct action, recon, etc... But they don't seam to have relaxed standards like SF. The big USMC has never liked having units that were considered more "elite". That's why the WW2 Raiders were disbanded.
What I don't understand is how they already have 2500+ in Marsoc. The units only been around for 9-10 years.
IIRC, there are roughly 1,000 operators, the rest of that 2500 is the Combat Service Support tail. MARSOC got it's start by transferring personnel from Force Reconnaissance into the new organization.
Think about it: given the size of the Corps as compared to the Army, you wouldn't need three Raider BN's. Maybe one BN, with two companies on the West coast, and two on the East coast. Not forward deployed like a MEU, but based CONUS. However, like the Ranger batts they'd be air-deployable within a few hours (rotate the "on-call" status among the four companies). They could also be used as "hired guns" for the other Delta-ish MARSOC elements, like the Rangers do for Delta and DEVGRU. Of course they could also be called upon by Delta or DEVGRU if they were available or in the AO and Rangers weren't for whatever reason. You basically be adding another Ranger (Raider in this case) unit to JSOC's toolbox.
The Raider Companies are smaller, give or take 56 guys on four teams, with four companies per battalion, for a total of 224ish per BN. So two companies on the West Coast, and two on the East, would be essentially 112 Operators per CONUS division and none for the 3rd MarDiv.
Your 'on call' company would be 56ish in strength.
I think the CMC and his cronies have it pretty well arranged to fit the needs of both the Marine Corps and SOCOM.
wild_wild_wes
06-21-15, 21:35
Anyone have more knowledge and/or comments, a link to explain the mission of these new Raiders?
MarSoc is the USMC component to SOCOM, other than having units in proximity to I and II MEF and their associated divisions they don't work for the Marines they work for the TSOCs.
When a MSOC is embarked with a MEU, only time a MEU has the SOC designation now, they don't work for the MEU commander.
The Six Marine Special Operations Company core tasks: Direct Action, Special Reconnaissance, Foreign Internal Defense, Counterterrorism, Information Operations, and Unconventional Warfare
wild_wild_wes
06-21-15, 22:05
A wise use of resources, or are they duplicating capabilities units in other services already provide?
sniperfrog
06-21-15, 22:18
Are you talking from a place of experience? I have seen plenty of bearded MARSOC pipehitters that blend in quite well to even a foreign civilian populace....
I have a friend who was with Force Recon. He's got some friends with MARSOC who had told him that their leadership were not letting them have relaxed grooming standards while deployed and they were kinda pissed about it. It was probably just their CO at the time so perhaps other MARSOC units are allowed.
sniperfrog
06-21-15, 22:22
IIRC, there are roughly 1,000 operators, the rest of that 2500 is the Combat Service Support tail. MARSOC got it's start by transferring personnel from Force Reconnaissance into the new organization.
That makes more sense.
Anyone have more knowledge and/or comments, a link to explain the mission of these new Raiders?
http://warontherocks.com/2014/06/understanding-the-marine-corps-special-operators/
I have a friend who was with Force Recon. He's got some friends with MARSOC who had told him that their leadership were not letting them have relaxed grooming standards while deployed and they were kinda pissed about it. It was probably just their CO at the time so perhaps other MARSOC units are allowed.
I remember when MARSOC recruiting came to my Cpl's Course (Mid-2010) to explain Marsoc, grooming and PFT and CFT standards were to be recognized, they had an emphasis on the Marine Corps standards with the SOCOM money. People ask how they got so many personnel so quickly, they drew from the whole Marine Corps, while primarily from Force Reconnaissance, I knew guys from the Wing that met certain standards and were excepted into the training program. One Sgt I specifically remember would run 12 miles at Lake Murray (San Diego area) twice with 100lbs pack plus gear to get ready for the selection process.
The Raider Companies are smaller, give or take 56 guys on four teams, with four companies per battalion, for a total of 224ish per BN. So two companies on the West Coast, and two on the East, would be essentially 112 Operators per CONUS division and none for the 3rd MarDiv.
Your 'on call' company would be 56ish in strength.
I think the CMC and his cronies have it pretty well arranged to fit the needs of both the Marine Corps and SOCOM.
I was working under the assumption that they were organized under what would normally be considered "company size", i.e. 150-200 guys. Did not know they were that small in number per company.
I remember when MARSOC recruiting came to my Cpl's Course (Mid-2010) to explain Marsoc, grooming and PFT and CFT standards were to be recognized, they had an emphasis on the Marine Corps standards with the SOCOM money. People ask how they got so many personnel so quickly, they drew from the whole Marine Corps, while primarily from Force Reconnaissance, I knew guys from the Wing that met certain standards and were excepted into the training program. One Sgt I specifically remember would run 12 miles at Lake Murray (San Diego area) twice with 100lbs pack plus gear to get ready for the selection process.
Twice a day? Holy shit!
I was working under the assumption that they were organized under what would normally be considered "company size", i.e. 150-200 guys. Did not know they were that small in number per company.
Each company is 97 Marines and Sailors
Twice a day? Holy shit!
6 miles is one time around, so 12 miles total, internet and Makers Mark don't always mix, my apologizes
Each company is 97 Marines and Sailors
I understood each company was comprised of four 14 person teams and that they didn't have an organic weps plt. What is the TOE?
6 miles is one time around, so 12 miles total, internet and Makers Mark don't always mix, my apologizes
Hey, fine bourbon mixes with anything except driving! No problem.
That sounds really cool but isn't really what's happening with MarSoc. They're still not allowed to grow beards or grow their hair out so it makes it hard to blend in with anyone but other Marines.
From what I understand Marsoc is more like an SF group not a Ranger Batt. They have teams that do FID and teams that do direct action, recon, etc... But they don't seam to have relaxed standards like SF. The big USMC has never liked having units that were considered more "elite". That's why the WW2 Raiders were disbanded.
What I don't understand is how they already have 2500+ in Marsoc. The units only been around for 9-10 years.
Partly. Partly $. And Truman despised Roosevelt's son, who was a Marine Raider. Truman generally disliked the Corps and tried to get it absorbed into the other services.
Partly. Partly $. And Truman despised Roosevelt's son, who was a Marine Raider. Truman generally disliked the Corps and tried to get it absorbed into the other services.
Why did Truman despise James Roosevelt? Was it because of his relationship with Joseph Kennedy, or his tenure as his father's right hand man before WWII broke out? If you can point me to a good reference book on the subject I'd be interested in reading it.
Why did Truman despise James Roosevelt? Was it because of his relationship with Joseph Kennedy, or his tenure as his father's right hand man before WWII broke out? If you can point me to a good reference book on the subject I'd be interested in reading it.
I will see if I can recall where I read it...if I can, I will PM the info. If I remember Truman's beef specific to Rooselvelt it was that Rooselvelt had his dad's ear, especially with regard to the Marines and how they could best be employed (during WWII), and junior kind of went around Truman quite a bit. Generally Truman disliked the Marines because he felt in WWI the Corps got more props than they deserved and the Army did not gets its due, so his dislike and distrust went back to WWI. He was also fairly antipathetic to the Navy. It did not help the Raiders that the Marines are loathe to recognize any bunch of Marines being "better" than the rest, so after WWII the Marine leadership, in the midst of post-war budget cuts, got rid of all "special" Marine units, with Truman's approval.
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