View Full Version : Slug or Buckshot for Home Defense?
veteran-USMC
06-19-15, 13:18
Howdy! Recently I bought a 12 Gauge sem-auto shotgun for fun at the range & home defense. Which 12 gauge ammo would stop a lethal charge the best--a slug or buckshot? Could you recommend a brand of either to be used inside a home for defense? Thank-you for your time & attention to my questions. Semper Fi Till the Day I Die!
Fed tactical #1 buckshot. Know the limitations and spread and get lots of range time.
Shot placement. Both can do the job, if you do yours and put the loads in the CNS. Otherwise it is no better than anything else. Might cause faster bleed out but if you want to drop them shutting down the CNS isvthe only way. I know lots like to take about how a 12 gauge is a one shot stop but i have also seen a video of a guy charging a line of officers two or three with handguns and one with a 12 gauge. The perp took a bunch of handgun rounds and the first load of buck stumbled him but he kept charging even though chances were he was dead on his feet. The second load from the shotgun put him down though i want to say it was in the face from about two foot from the end of the muzzle.
Also that said. If i were inclined for a 12 gauge for HD i would lean towards a good buckshot load. Federal flitecontrol are a current favorite.
Just be care with it's use. Both buckshot and slugs have a huge tendency to over penetrate in modern homes.
texasgunhand
06-19-15, 19:21
One thing is massive over penetrating with either is just horrible. My personal preference is something like a heavy turkey shot for inside,bigger pattern and more shot flying. Dont even think bird shot at indoor ranges wont stop a threat quickly. For outside i would prefer a high cap pistol or m4 carbine. Theres to many variables such as distance to threat,distance to neighbors etc.that come into play. For me training and accuracy are the best weapons out there. Hitting and stopping a threat quickly is the key whether its with a .22 or shotgun. Having good lights,, flash or weapon mounted helps a ton.
I alternate slugs and 00 buck, but I live in the boonies and don't care about over penetration.
Buck because it works, slugs because if they're in soft armor or buck doesn't do the job ...
If I lived in the city I would be using a much different load.
m1a_scoutguy
06-19-15, 23:01
If your inside 100% of the time I say High Brass,buffered 6s ! Bad ass in every way !! Pattern your gun to see for yourself. Buckshot @25/30 yards ya mite be lucky to hit what your aiming at especially under stress ! That's my 2cents,LOL
texasgunhand
06-19-15, 23:40
If your inside 100% of the time I say High Brass,buffered 6s ! Bad ass in every way !! Pattern your gun to see for yourself. Buckshot @25/30 yards ya mite be lucky to hit what your aiming at especially under stress ! That's my 2cents,LOL
I totaly agree,indoors high brass birdshot is hard to beat. The limited range and spread patterns of buckshot outdoors is its downfall. In reality both would be just as lethal at short distances such as in a room or down a hallway. I thought of buying a short barrel mossberg my self for home defense but these problems with it are why i did not.
If indoors i prefer and have been trained with a pistol,outdoors the m4 is hard to beat. The 9mm,.45,.357 all will over penetrate when dealing with sheetrock and wood but at least its just one large projectile flying not nine.
I will admit though,the over penetration of the 9mm is bad. The other day i was trying to stop a berry 124gr bullet to examine it. It went through a 4×4 and a bottle of water and into soft earth deep enough i couldnt find it 3 times at 4 feet or so. So either it or buckshot will not be stopped by sheetrock and 1 inch wood siding. If i had to use buckshot indoors they make low power versions that might be worth looking into.
I'd use #4 buckshot for HD.
In a FBI conducted police firearms instructor course I attended years ago, they were a proponent of #4 buck as well. Good compromise between pellet count and size.
vicious_cb
06-20-15, 13:20
Fed tactical #1 buckshot. Know the limitations and spread and get lots of range time.
Seconded, #1 buck has the most tissue destruction combined with adequate penetration out of all the pellet sizes out there. Also a slug for HD is dumb unless you live in a 20,000 sq mansion with long hallways.
Brenekke make a couple slugs specifically for home defense that limit over penetration, but still meet fbi protocol. The K.O. slug, and they used to have the rottweiler. You may be able to find the rottweiler, but I have seen doc gkr say they both were good options for a slug.
I keep the shotgun for hd, because I live in cali. I dont want to be the poster child for using an AR for home defense, plus with a ten round mag capacity is not much different. I keep it loaded with hevi shot "dead coyote". They call the shot size t, which is supposedly 17 .20 caliber projectiles.
Do you NOT own an M4 type rifle? Why on God's earth would you settle on a shotgun if you indeed own an AR???
Bcause of California's retarded laws. There is always an ar right by the shotgun, but I just know it would possibly cause problems with my defense. We have a modified castle doctrine, and im just not sure if I want to be the guinea pig in a self defense case where an "assault rifle" was used. Their word not mine. Another problem is 10 round magazine along with the bullet button. Which is supposed to make the magazine fixed. So I would rather use the AR, but the shotgun or pistol would probably be used. I guess I really dont know until that bump in the night. The AR is always accessible.
I do own a couple, and feel much more comfortable with the AR. I just dont trust 12 of my fellow californians to not lock me up, just for using the AR to defend my family.
Regarding overpenetration. Any decent round will go through 4 standard drywall walls. A slug will penetrate a lot more, but buckshot, pistol, and rifle rounds all penetrate about the same.
#1 is the best shotgun round to balance penetration around the ideal. Going bigger, you lose # holes and gain unneeded penetration. Smaller and you risk underpenetration.
Plated shot is also a factor for barriers. I'd recommend sticking to loads that are on the list.
This is all per testing from DOCGKR and the boxotruth.
Fwiw, deer get shot with slugs a lot, through both lungs and heart and still run 40 yards. Don't bet on a 1 shot stop in life or death situations. Buck shot spreads out once it hits tissue making the damage area bigger as it penetrates. Like anything else, accuracy at speed is what wins, so practice followups.
Anywhere from #4 buck to #1 buck for inside the house. Anything more is pretty much going to over penetrate. I would say #BBB or #TT but those are usually only found in 3 inch shells.
Using birdshot for home defense is like using a condom with holes in it and having sex with your cousin. Numerous studies have shown that it is not very effective against real targets.
Using birdshot for home defense is like using a condom with holes in it and having sex with your cousin. Numerous studies have shown that it is not very effective against real targets.
I missed it the first time. I can't believe, with the easily available info out there, that people actually suggest that.
Using birdshot for home defense is like using a condom with holes in it and having sex with your cousin. Numerous studies have shown that it is not very effective against real targets.
Even though I have attended two autopsies where the subject was shot with bird shot, I would not recommend it. The shot did not spread very much before striking the assailants, so it was like getting hit with larger shot at a greater distance. I agree with those who recommended #4 buck shot.
I would not recommend slugs for home defense. If I were to recommend a weapon that fired single projectiles, I would suggest a M1 Carbine or AR-15 loaded with SP ammunition.
texasgunhand
06-21-15, 22:52
Using birdshot for home defense is like using a condom with holes in it and having sex with your cousin. Numerous studies have shown that it is not very effective against real targets.
I watched a guy get shot in the chest with high brass #6 at close range. He was dead when he hit the floor.
Altho it was almost point blank. Of course 00 or #4 would be better , the power of a 12 gauge is a lot more than people think. Since fbi stats are that most gunfights occur with in 3 feet i find a long gun just that...long
Most people will run at just the sound of a pump racking a round into the chamber.
Since you live in a state were you limited on what you can run then i would stagger #4 and 000..After the first round goes off most bad guys are going to be heading for the hills,not many people are gona stick around long,, and if they are running away from you shooting them in the back can only turn out bad for you no matter what state you live in.
Distance to target is the factor. I live in a house were 75 feet would be the longest indoor shot possible but outdoors you could have contact up to 200 yards easly before getting off my property. But i agree with you about having your AR with only 10 rounds and a button that makes mag changes slow,go with the shot gun. You should buy a couple of 5 round boxes of eveything from #1 to 00 and go shoot some cardboard to check out the spread at the distance you need and make a decision with that. Take a couple of 1 gallon water jugs and check the devastation factor of the 12 gauge with high power ammo. A deer may run with a chest full of #4 or a 30.06 round through the lungs but most people will not.
Also look online about how to make your house less of a target, outdoor lighting , puting metal bars in your windows and glass sliding doors so they cant be pryed open easly. Getting a bar from lowes that goes from the floor to your door knob so doors cant easly be kicked in etc. Can make burglars go else were,then you dont have to worry about getting dragged into court or having to shoot someone. Just make sure YOU can get out if theres a fire.
A determined criminal will not stop because he hears a shotgun being racked. I have seen videos of home invasions where the criminal returns after being shot at. Never underestimate what a criminal is willing to do. If you use a shotgun keep one in the pipe so you dont have to rack it. All that does is tell them your general location. Plus you live in a free state with a true castle doctrine. Im supposed to wait until great bodily harm has been inflicted upon me before I defend myself. Texas, Montana, or Arizona will be where I call home in the next year.
I personally think the shotgun is a horrible choice, and im not sure which long gun I would pick up if there was a bump in the night. There's an AR, shotgun, and a pistol all in the vicinity. My brain tells me to pick up the AR, living in California tells me to grab anything but the AR. Once I move everything will be in the safe accept my go to AR, and I will finally be able to buy some of those dangerous 30 round mags.
texasgunhand
06-21-15, 23:52
Some people are crazy,and if they are just bound and determined to kill you you will have to stop them. But in reality most people that break into house are there to steal,they want no part of the home owner,thats why most burglaries occur during the daytime when they think no ones home. But theres cases of people kicking the door in when they know theres people there and taking over. Unless you have a way to defend against this such as a gun right next to you it will be a total suprise and hard to be ready for. Thats why swat teams do it that way.
Once you move, i dont know if you will be any safer,but you might feel better about your safety,maybe be better armed also. The truth is its hard to be on guard constantly. I wish you good luck and good fortune on your move to a state with more freedoms though.
Please do not regurgitate garbage which is nothing more then folklore or pure garbage. When the decision to use deadly force is made, it is to stop the attacker with the utmost urgency. In other words end the incident as fast as possible.
People have been shot with .32 caliber handguns at point blank and died also. It doesn't mean we advocate every carry a .32. Birdshot belongs in the shotgun for bird season, that's it. Racking the action on a shotgun is no more scary than standing in front of the mirror and chanting bloody Mary.
Your average person is much better off using a handgun with quality ammo and possibly a weapons light than using a shotgun. I have seen numerous people fail at loading, shooting and hitting targets under stress and that was only during the day. At night it's going to be worse.
I watched a guy get shot in the chest with high brass #6 at close range. He was dead when he hit the floor.
Altho it was almost point blank. Of course 00 or #4 would be better , the power of a 12 gauge is a lot more than people think. Since fbi stats are that most gunfights occur with in 3 feet i find a long gun just that...long
Most people will run at just the sound of a pump racking a round into the chamber.
Since you live in a state were you limited on what you can run then i would stagger #4 and 000..After the first round goes off most bad guys are going to be heading for the hills,not many people are gona stick around long,, and if they are running away from you shooting them in the back can only turn out bad for you no matter what state you live in.
Distance to target is the factor. I live in a house were 75 feet would be the longest indoor shot possible but outdoors you could have contact up to 200 yards easly before getting off my property. But i agree with you about having your AR with only 10 rounds and a button that makes mag changes slow,go with the shot gun. You should buy a couple of 5 round boxes of eveything from #1 to 00 and go shoot some cardboard to check out the spread at the distance you need and make a decision with that. Take a couple of 1 gallon water jugs and check the devastation factor of the 12 gauge with high power ammo. A deer may run with a chest full of #4 or a 30.06 round through the lungs but most people will not.
Also look online about how to make your house less of a target, outdoor lighting , puting metal bars in your windows and glass sliding doors so they cant be pryed open easly. Getting a bar from lowes that goes from the floor to your door knob so doors cant easly be kicked in etc. Can make burglars go else were,then you dont have to worry about getting dragged into court or having to shoot someone. Just make sure YOU can get out if theres a fire.
texasgunhand
06-22-15, 08:23
Please do not regurgitate garbage which is nothing more then folklore or pure garbage. When the decision to use deadly force is made, it is to stop the attacker with the utmost urgency. In other words end the incident as fast as possible.
People have been shot with .32 caliber handguns at point blank and died also. It doesn't mean we advocate every carry a .32. Birdshot belongs in the shotgun for bird season, that's it. Racking the action on a shotgun is no more scary than standing in front of the mirror and chanting bloody Mary.
Your average person is much better off using a handgun with quality ammo and possibly a weapons light than using a shotgun. I have seen numerous people fail at loading, shooting and hitting targets under stress and that was only during the day. At night it's going to be worse.
Totaly agree the buckshot or handgun would be better, i was just agreeing with another poster that indoors high brass is deadly and doesnt fly through 2×4s with the over penetration of 00 buck.
I also said that training for a threat and accuracy were the best weapons you can get. And pointed out the importance of a good light. These things are just basic knowledge.
As far as the racking of a shot gun in a deadly situation not being scary,i guess it depends on whos holding it at the time.LOL. I racked one on a guy that was already chambered he was determined to kill me and my partner with a butcher knife, He didnt seem to mind the 357 or 12gauge pointed at him but he dropped it immediately when he heard that shotgun rack. Your results may differ. BTW, it was loaded with 00 buckshot.Thats why the police used to anyway , speak of the psychological effect of the 12 gauge pump ,,maybe they dont train it anymore.
Bird shot is normally considered to be shot sizes 6-9. Heavier shot sizes like 2-4 might may serve better for home defense. I once saw two bodies shot with no. 6 shot at close range. The shot completely passed through both. My statements here do not detract from the latest research which says that only buckshot is effective.
In my old age I agree that an M4 type carbine immensely surpasses a shotgun for home defense. Much lower recoil, capacity, and ease of handling are three reasons.
Your average person is much better off using a handgun with quality ammo and possibly a weapons light than using a shotgun. I have seen numerous people fail at loading, shooting and hitting targets under stress and that was only during the day. At night it's going to be worse.
A shotgun is equal or better than any handgun caliber in a home defense situation. A key word there is defense. If the person is aggressing in his home, the shotgun may pose challenges negotiating corners, but those challenges are not better negotiated with an AR.
How does employing the most difficult form of firearm mitigate failing to load, shoot, or hit targets under stress? Both weapons need the same attention, but a long gun is easier to get hits on target than a handgun.
I'm a pump gun fan with very many years experience shooting the slide action. The average guy will have more malfunctions with a pump than with a semi auto. I can explain this statement if asked to. While observing training of correctional officers learning to shoot the 870, I learned that my favorite shotgun was not easily mastered and was puzzled at first. An obvious conclusion is that proper instruction is necessary before Joe can "drive" the weapons that we might consider to be simple.
Clearing rooms and around corners might best be left to police trained for the task. If the man of the house is killed doing this, then what will happen to the wife and kids?
Using birdshot for home defense is like using a condom with holes in it and having sex with your cousin. Numerous studies have shown that it is not very effective against real targets.
Years ago I had to persuade a 70lb or so black lab from finishing off a family pet. At the time I was still living at home and grabbed the Mossberg 500 with the first shell being a #7 1/2 or 8 shot. That was conventional wisdom at the time (late '80s) because we lived in town. The offending canine took the birdshot load broadside right in the chest from about 5', yelped and took off. A couple of weeks later I was speaking with a good friend and a guy that I knew. I brought up the subject and found out that it was the guys dog. After taking the hit, the dog made it about 1.5 miles back home and was put down the next afternoon. That's the last time that I've ever loaded birdshot in a shotgun to be used for SD/HD. YMMV.
Keith
......................Clearing rooms and around corners might best be left to police trained for the task. If the man of the house is killed doing this, then what will happen to the wife and kids?
You bring up a very good point about home defense.
Pattern your shotgun with a variety of five packs. #1 and 000 both sound good but often have a doughnut hole pattern with large empty center. Federal premium copper plated 12 pellet 00 performs well in all shotguns I have ever owned. these include several Remington 870's and 1100's, two HK/Benelli, and two Winchesters. They even outperform flight control wads in some shotguns. To "fill in" a head shot #4 and lead (not steel) BB's work well. Ive used all of these loads on deer, farm animals, ferral dogs and varmits. The 000 is most surprising, as pellets expand and cause explosive wounds to head, and hold pattern out to 90 yards (4 at chest and 4 at pelvis) in IM choke from Rem 1100! Lead BB's will remove everything between the ears with Cylinder bore on many farm animals (I use it for butchering and euthanasia). In comparison, #6 will not exit head. the heavier shot is deffinately more effective on deer sized animals including ferral dogs. Pattern your 12 ga. I would be surprised if the premium Federal copper plated 00 did not come out on top. So called Tactical loads (old fashioned 9 pellet 00) offer reduced recoil and with fewer pellets to squeeze down the choke, so there is less pellet deformation. They often pattern well. PS I like to have a light on any weapon intended for self defense.
Most people will run at just the sound of a pump racking a round into the chamber.
Oh sweet jeebus....
Oh sweet jeebus....
And for safety sake, just use snap caps for the effect to chase them away. No reason risking an AD with live rounds. Shot gun home defense 101 right there.
XxWoodsHunterxX
06-24-15, 23:54
Buckshot and good shot placement. Or they do have less lethal rounds but why. Jut my 2cents.
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