View Full Version : LAV bans use of appendix holsters in his classes.
Eurodriver
06-21-15, 08:27
It's about damn time.
Appendix holsters are great for CCW. You know, situations where you holster your gun safely in your bedroom, pull your gun out to shoot a bad guy, and then immediately call 911.
They are not great for high round count classes where you are drawing your pistol (and more importantly, reholstering) 100+ times where the instructor is deliberately trying to induce stress and fatigue.
Disclaimer: I use an appendix carry holster every day.
http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx317/lovemachine46147/Mobile%20Uploads/7A2497C6-C321-4C5A-806D-A187AE1F8F57_zpseozlbiab.png
Moose-Knuckle
06-21-15, 08:35
I saw that post on FB as well. I AIWB everyday and would never AWIB in a class that was not geared specifically to concealed carry. I don't blame LAV one bit and considering there have been TWO ND's in related classes by other instructors it's just plain good horse sense.
Most folks attending classes have only shot on square ranges that don't allow drawing/firing/re-holstering so it's not in good form to do it for the first time with live rounds no less a hundred plus times in a course oriented for combat handguns.
There can be a lot of derp already with retentionless open carried 3:00 OWB in open enrollment and LE classes. If class conditions aren't conducive to the extra cautions required of AIWB, it makes sense.
4DAIVI PAI2K5
06-21-15, 12:00
I saw that post on FB as well. I AIWB everyday and would never AWIB in a class that was not geared specifically to concealed carry. I don't blame LAV one bit and considering there have been TWO ND's in related classes by other instructors it's just plain good horse sense.
Most folks attending classes have only shot on square ranges that don't allow drawing/firing/re-holstering so it's not in good form to do it for the first time with live rounds no less a hundred plus times in a course oriented for combat handguns.
Are there threads on the other two ND's. I keep hearing about them but haven't read anything.
I carry AWIB EDC. You need to be deliberate and aware every time you holster the gun.
I see his point and also believe in his business, his rules.
I know of one of the two incidents that LAV speaks of but I won't speak about them unless I'm granted permission and I wouldn't speak about it in an open forum. I carry appendix most of the time but I only practice presentation with an empty weapon. It is a fast and very concealable mode of carry but it is way too dangerous. I would not allow it when I am teaching either. Appendix carry has become a fad in the shooting community and the cool guy status in this situation has become more dangerous than what it's worth. I am pretty certain that you will see this AIWB ban across the board in at least the higher end shooting instructor group.
If I dare to throw more common sense into my post, think about this....
Most shooting ranges are in semi-remote areas and not too close to trauma centers. Why not be cautious instead of cool?
The restriction makes sense. Unless you have known a particular group of students for several years and are familiar with their ability, you have to establish certain restrictions on equipment used in courses.
ForTehNguyen
06-21-15, 13:50
so what makes appendix carry more dangerous as opposed to 3:00 or 4:30 carrying? Assuming all are IWB
so what makes appendix carry more dangerous as opposed to 3:00 or 4:30 carrying? Assuming all are IWB
The person using the equipment. If you have a ND with a holster located at another position, there is less chance of serious injury.
The person using the equipment. If you have a ND with a holster located at another position, there is less chance of serious injury.
Also, depending on how you draw, it's more common to sweep your neighbor.
so what makes appendix carry more dangerous as opposed to 3:00 or 4:30 carrying? Assuming all are IWB
Unless you are a super skinny 6 pack wearing body type, you can not watch your muzzle into the holster. Some of us have a thicker mid section and the view gets obstructed. You cant see the opening in the holster or any obstructions. And before anyone flames me that I shouldn't have to look into my holster before holstering, I'll tell you this. Unless you are a cop that has to go hands on immediately after presenting his weapon to say use handcuffs or control techniques, THERE IS NO REASON TO HOLSTER QUICKLY!
This mode of carry was invented by a very thin DOJ agent who used a Sig P228 and was able to place his thumb on the hammer while holstering which would prevent the weapon from discharging if something got into the trigger guard while holstering.
........THERE IS NO REASON TO HOLSTER QUICKLY!..........
^^^^^ I'll bet I say this 30 times a day during a pistol course. If you have the pistol out of the holster, you obviously felt the need. Why get in a hurry to holster it?
Mr. Vickers is being generous. I don't allow appendix holsters, shoulder holsters, cross draw holsters or SERPA holsters in my courses. People don't always use their thinking cap when operating under stress. Sometimes people grumble about the holster restriction, but no one gets injured.
I Aiwb carry daily in vg2. Holster is removed to reholster. I do live fire often, but it's holstered slowly. I also draw to minimize muzzle sweep.
Aiwb in class sounds like a bad idea.
^^^^^ I'll bet I say this 30 times a day during a pistol course. If you have the pistol out of the holster, you obviously felt the need. Why get in a hurry to holster it?
Mr. Vickers is being generous. I don't allow appendix holsters, shoulder holsters, cross draw holsters or SERPA holsters in my courses. ......
I don't teach shooting - I teach forensics (including firearms/ballistics) to future LEOs (Criminal Justice students).
That being said, I do have a lifetime of shooting and training at a lot of schools under my belt, so I do "add" some personal opinions into my lectures and labs in addition to all of the science I throw their way. The above statement about restrictions on holsters - especially for intro-level LEOs and such - exactly mirrors what I pass along to the students. Hell - you should see the holsters used in the old "leather slap" competitions I shot in during the 70s!!!!! Talk about unsafe! Saw a guy put a .357 158gr all the way through his thigh drawing from one of those - uncovered trigger guard!!!!! He was lucky - bullet path was parallel to the femoral artery:)
Stay safe!
john
Are there threads on the other two ND's. I keep hearing about them but haven't read anything.
I carry AWIB EDC. You need to be deliberate and aware every time you holster the gun.
I see his point and also believe in his business, his rules.
That.
diving dave
06-21-15, 16:34
I get LV's thinking...I run an INCOG for my G26, and always re-holster slow and careful.... but then again, any holster can still bite you if people do stupid stuff. I used to work with a female officer who while practicing at the PD range forgot to decock her P226. Went to re-holster (and this was with a duty belt rig) and shot herself in the ass.
I personally disagree. If its not a CCW class, then maybe. But so many people blabber about "train like you fight" then start stuff like this. How many people actually carry AIWB on a regular basis? I sure as hell did when I was in VA. I understand his point, but to me it seems to be your typical knee jerk reaction that doesn't actually fix the problem. The problem there is a training issue. If it can't safely be moderated as an instructor, maybe Alias needs to restrict the class sizes more. It sure would've made my Pannone class better. Of course I do respect him and his position, but it just won't be something I pay for. The SERPA thing is similar but I agree with that one because there are so many better holsters that fill the same roll. An entire carry position though, I'm not completely convinced.
The more I began to really look at gun safety and critically apply the four rules, the more I began to see appendix carry and shoulder holsters as a poor idea with a greater opportunity for things to go wrong.
Certainly a "very responsible" person can do it without incident, but that isn't everyone and if I was the guy in charge of a "group of unknown shooters" I'd probably put similar rules in place.
If I were in LAV's position, I'd probably do the same thing thing--for liability reasons, if nothing else.
When I'm at a class, I use an OWB holster that I never use to carry concealed. I get the "train as you fight" mantra, but that's not really true. IMHO it should be "*practice* as you fight".
Practice is all on you.
Are classes training? I thought classes taught, and you went home and applied the education to your training.
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-21-15, 21:12
I totally agree with LAV on this. Despite "keep your finger off the trigger no boom" mantra it is just more dangerous to carry saftey-less, light trigger weight, short trigger travel handguns. They are easy to shoot because they are EASY TO SHOOT Add appendix carry to this and stress and you have increased the odds of Glock groin. These guns need to be in rigid, preferably OWB holsters. Just my opinion.
External hammer fired guns FTW.
I can see where he’s coming from. I’ve never been a fan of AIWB for me, but I know a lot of people are. And if it works for you, more power to you.
But, I’ve taken classes with people who appendix carry. When we’re taking a break for water, reloading, whatever… sitting down on a bench, chair, etc I often see the gun pointing right at their leg, foot, jewels (especially those with larger bellies it tends to push the gun inward). Some guys can pull it off better than others, but it’s always the weakest link that will get themselves (and a trainer) in trouble.
Good for LAV leading the way on this issue. Having carried appendix back in the 90's, I will say that I am NOT a fan (risk vs reward kind of thing) unless you are carrying a DA/SA or guns with external safeties.
C4
One of my Foremen lost his nephew about five years ago. Appendix carry. was sitting down and fiddling with it, shot himself in the leg. Hit the Femoral artery.
Arguments can be made about whether it was a properly designed holster, or whether the trigger on his pistol was appropriate for safety, or if he had the experience and training to carry it in that location properly. All those discussions may be valid, but a simple solution to reduce risk would have been to rotate the holster 90* clockwise.
As been said before, Larry's business, his rules. But what is very uplifting to me is how many people here really understand his concern. Even a few years ago I imagine this would have started an argument of "I'm safe," or "it's safe," or this or that. The equipment I've seen on league night, the same stuff some of those guys are carrying on duty, we've done a great deal to simplify and smooth the process of point and shoot, but now, literally, the only thing between a finger and a ND is the programming in a person's head. There's no stamp of approval or freshness date on a person's brain. With equipment the way it is today, you just have to move everything else to the lowest common denominator. Thank God he has the foresight to do it before there was a reason to.
QuickStrike
06-22-15, 13:36
I agree completely with this restriction.
http://ozarksholstercompany.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ozarks-guard-glove-holsters-450x450.jpg
One of the reasons I like using these types of holsters for appendix carry is because the kydex isnt attached closely to the belt. This allows me to snap the trigger guard cover over the gun with the muzzle pointed far away from any body part.
Only seems to work well for very small, light guns like the G43 for me though.
I saw this on his FB page earlier and totally understand. When in a free state I carry AIWB but taking a class where you have to holster and un-holster many times I can see this being a problem.
I have seen several instructors disallow the use of SERPA holsters as well because people ND into the ground or their foot when un-holstering because of the button release.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-22-15, 16:22
I agree completely with this restriction.
One of the reasons I like using these types of holsters for appendix carry is because the kydex isnt attached closely to the belt. This allows me to snap the trigger guard cover over the gun with the muzzle pointed far away from any body part.
Only seems to work well for very small, light guns like the G43 for me though.
Sorry, but I thought those set ups were for pocket carry with the pocket acting as a holster and the plastics acting to protect the trigger. What retains the gun and do you look the string around your junk ?
If you've ever seen a femoral artery bleed, you understand the reasoning behind LAV's decision.
Outlander Systems
06-22-15, 16:56
If you've ever seen a femoral artery bleed, you understand the reasoning behind LAV's decision.
This.
I don't even care for open-top kydex.
The only thing I've ever carried AIWB is a TDI knife.
If you're confident to carry a safety-less pistol, in what is essentially a race/competition holster, aimed at your Dugan and/or a major arterial pathway...knock yourself out.
For me, AIWB, especially with a striker-fired, "trigger safety" equipped handgun, is adding more liability to my carrying preference.
YMMV
I've never been comfortable with appendix carry. I understand all the safety rules and realize the risk is minimal if the firearm is re-holstered or drawn correctly every time. I've tried the method and practiced with dry firing extensively, because so many people seem to favor the method.
The thing is, I'm not perfect, and I don't do everything perfectly every time. An ND to my ass cheek is preferable to a ND to anything in the front, IF an ND were ever to happen. I don't want anyone's gun, including my own, pointing at my junk.
I also respect anyone's decision to teach their classes how they see fit, and everyone else's decision to take said classes, or not.
[/QUOTE]
This mode of carry was invented by a very thin DOJ agent who used a Sig P228 and was able to place his thumb on the hammer while holstering which would prevent the weapon from discharging if something got into the trigger guard while holstering.[/QUOTE]
When? I've been a cop for 30 years and have carried off duty that way for 30 years. It never had the name as it has been branded in recent years but the mode of carry has been around a long time. I learned it from old cops when I started. Less concerns of printing. Better retention control. And can move naturally when bending over etc without breaking concealment.
This mode of carry was invented by a very thin DOJ agent who used a Sig P228 and was able to place his thumb on the hammer while holstering which would prevent the weapon from discharging if something got into the trigger guard while holstering.[/QUOTE]
When? I've been a cop for 30 years and have carried off duty that way for 30 years. It never had the name as it has been branded in recent years but the mode of carry has been around a long time. I learned it from old cops when I started. Less concerns of printing. Better retention control. And can move naturally when bending over etc without breaking concealment.[/QUOTE]
I learned appendix carry from some old school LEO in 1985 and I used the method to carry revolvers and DA/SA pistols for years. I cannot remember anyone being injured using this method of carry.
Once Glock and copycats came on the market, I started seeing people carry their pistols in the same manner, which caused me and other firearm instructors concern. Given the number of Glock, Springfield and S&W striker fired pistols on the market, I believe a lot of instructors are shying away from allowing or even recommending appendix carry.
I am not sure how to link to FB, but Mike Pannone has just made a similar restriction in his Covert Carry Class. Basically, he will evaluate the student's skill level and weapon/holster placement and decide if he feels they can run AIWB. He is telling all students to bring a strong side holster with them to classes.
I personally agree with this and Vicker's decision as well. More than just liability, no one wants to see a needless/negligent injury in a training environment. These open enrollment classes have a wide variety of actual skill levels present, and with the added peer pressure to be fast and smooth (what Mac calls, "Dudes watching dudes.") the likelihood of an accident rises. If people choose to carry AIWB that is fine, I do myself sometimes, but I have no problem with instructors restricting it in their classes.
Has anyone ever heard of a holster name Summer Special? It's pretty famous and popular, been around since the 70s, designed by a California DOJ undercover agent named Bruce Nelson. Bruce Nelson was the original maker of the Summer Special as well as the #1 (that's the name) model. The #1 is now produced by Milt Sparks as the 55BN (BN stands for Bruce Nelson). Bruce and Milt Sparks were friends and Sparks continued making the Summer Special with Nelson's permission. Bruce was also an early instructor for Jeff Cooper at the original Gunsite (API).
Bruce Nelson was the first well known (well may be not to younger generations of gun carriers) persona to carry the gun inside the waist band in front of the hip. He did not carry it near the navel like some of today's personalities. Bruce used his Summer Special rig to do this. He also carried Colt Commander pistols, cocked and locked. There was no Glocks or Sig 228s back then you know.
Please read this article, or at least the part referencing Bruce Nelson, look at the picture and see where the Summer Special was:
http://www.theshootingchannel.com/2014/01/20/concealed-carry-holsters-inside-waistband-iwb/
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/nelsonbruceholsterforwadg2-e1390181501966.jpg
Stuffing a gun into the waist band in front of the hip is about as old as carrying a gun, some people call it "Mexican" carry.
I am not sure how to link to FB, but Mike Pannone has just made a similar restriction in his Covert Carry Class. Basically, he will evaluate the student's skill level and weapon/holster placement and decide if he feels they can run AIWB. He is telling all students to bring a strong side holster with them to classes.
I personally agree with this and Vicker's decision as well. More than just liability, no one wants to see a needless/negligent injury in a training environment. These open enrollment classes have a wide variety of actual skill levels present, and with the added peer pressure to be fast and smooth (what Mac calls, "Dudes watching dudes.") the likelihood of an accident rises. If people choose to carry AIWB that is fine, I do myself sometimes, but I have no problem with instructors restricting it in their classes.
Here is what CTT-Mike Pannone posted on his facebook:
***No student was or has been injured in a CTT-Solutions class. This PSA is to ensure it stays that way***
There have been several incidents I have been informed of where students in handgun classes carrying in a concealed appendix holster have discharged their pistol while re-holstering with subsequent injury. Therefore, I will be instituting a much stricter program of instruction and range policy designed to make every effort to ensure that all holsters in class are properly worn and safe for use both in and out of class. My evaluation will be based on body type, holster design/location and trigger design/weight. It will be in your best interest to have a belt slide holster and a cover garment suitable for use with it if you are planning to shoot from appendix in the event I deem your set-up unsuitable.
APPENDIX CARRY IS NOT FOR EVERYONE AND IS LIMITED TO CERTAIN BODY TYPES AND SKILL LEVELS. DO NOT ASSUME THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU BUY A GOOD QUALITY HOLSTER THAT YOU ARE FINE. THE HOLSTER MUST BE WORN PROPERLY AND IN THE PROPER LOCATION AND THE GUN MUST HAVE A TRIGGER THAT IS SUITABLE FOR CONCEALED CARRY.
The abovementioned problem is the result of one or more of the following factors:
• Holster selection- certain body types cannot wear an appendix holster without their stomach forcing the gun into a position where it is pointed at their legs or genitals. When I carry appendix my pistol is not pointed at any part of my body unless I get in an awkward position.
• Holster location- the holster genre is call “appendix” and if one looks on an anatomical chart, your appendix is not in the center of your body where your navel is. Improper wear causes it to be a safety concern by orienting the muzzle at the legs or genitals.
• Trigger weight and design- a striker fired gun with a chambered round and an aftermarket lightened trigger is NOT suitable for concealed carry in an appendix holster with a round chambered in my classes. You can carry what you want on your time but NOT IN AN OPEN ENROLLMENT CLASS. I am quite confident in my skills and
1.) I carry a DA/SA CZ P07 which gives me a much greater level of inherent safety.
2.) When I did carry a striker fired gun the trigger was of stock weight with stock parts.
• Technique and skill- when one is learning he/she should be going exceptionally slow so as to be able to identify EXACTLY the method by which they manage their gun and garment in conjunction with each other. With bad technique any firearm related task becomes risky and when learning new skills, speed can injure or worse.
• Attention to detail- Don’t paw at a garment or gun to draw it or try and stuff it back in your holster like a sandwich into a bag. Think of the desired end state and never forget the nature of the device in your hands.
When re-holstering strictly adhere to the following steps:
S-low down, straighten your trigger finger along the frame and well outside the trigger guard
A-lways ensure the garment is completely cleared from the holster and surrounding area
F-inal visual check that gun/holster are clear of clothing and finger is outside of trigger guard
E-nd the action by slowly re-holstering the pistol
*Other than a mechanical failure of the pistol, negligent discharges when drawing or re-holstering are always due to a mistake by the shooter. These mistakes are overwhelmingly caused by excessive speed and sloppiness. From this point on in every Covert Carry Class I will reserve final say on whether or not your holster is worn properly, in a suitable location and is appropriate for your body type and the pistol being used. It will be a requirement for all attendees to bring a belt holster along with their desired appendix holster. An inexpensive belt holster is worth the investment and should be integrated into any concealment training regardless of primary carry method.
Cincinnatus
06-23-15, 11:06
Stuffing a gun into the waist band in front of the hip is about as old as carrying a gun, some people call it "Mexican" carry.
Notice where one of Decatur's sailors is pulling his pistol from?
33845
Mountain man, Liver Eatin' John Johnson, used to carry a Colt Walker that way.
Moose-Knuckle
06-23-15, 13:24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ternps0JFwo
Here is what CTT-Mike Pannone posted on his facebook:
***No student was or has been injured in a CTT-Solutions class. This PSA is to ensure it stays that way***
There have been several incidents I have been informed of where students in handgun classes carrying in a concealed appendix holster have discharged their pistol while re-holstering with subsequent injury. Therefore, I will be instituting a much stricter program of instruction and range policy designed to make every effort to ensure that all holsters in class are properly worn and safe for use both in and out of class. My evaluation will be based on body type, holster design/location and trigger design/weight. It will be in your best interest to have a belt slide holster and a cover garment suitable for use with it if you are planning to shoot from appendix in the event I deem your set-up unsuitable.
APPENDIX CARRY IS NOT FOR EVERYONE AND IS LIMITED TO CERTAIN BODY TYPES AND SKILL LEVELS. DO NOT ASSUME THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU BUY A GOOD QUALITY HOLSTER THAT YOU ARE FINE. THE HOLSTER MUST BE WORN PROPERLY AND IN THE PROPER LOCATION AND THE GUN MUST HAVE A TRIGGER THAT IS SUITABLE FOR CONCEALED CARRY.
The abovementioned problem is the result of one or more of the following factors:
• Holster selection- certain body types cannot wear an appendix holster without their stomach forcing the gun into a position where it is pointed at their legs or genitals. When I carry appendix my pistol is not pointed at any part of my body unless I get in an awkward position.
• Holster location- the holster genre is call “appendix” and if one looks on an anatomical chart, your appendix is not in the center of your body where your navel is. Improper wear causes it to be a safety concern by orienting the muzzle at the legs or genitals.
• Trigger weight and design- a striker fired gun with a chambered round and an aftermarket lightened trigger is NOT suitable for concealed carry in an appendix holster with a round chambered in my classes. You can carry what you want on your time but NOT IN AN OPEN ENROLLMENT CLASS. I am quite confident in my skills and
1.) I carry a DA/SA CZ P07 which gives me a much greater level of inherent safety.
2.) When I did carry a striker fired gun the trigger was of stock weight with stock parts.
• Technique and skill- when one is learning he/she should be going exceptionally slow so as to be able to identify EXACTLY the method by which they manage their gun and garment in conjunction with each other. With bad technique any firearm related task becomes risky and when learning new skills, speed can injure or worse.
• Attention to detail- Don’t paw at a garment or gun to draw it or try and stuff it back in your holster like a sandwich into a bag. Think of the desired end state and never forget the nature of the device in your hands.
When re-holstering strictly adhere to the following steps:
S-low down, straighten your trigger finger along the frame and well outside the trigger guard
A-lways ensure the garment is completely cleared from the holster and surrounding area
F-inal visual check that gun/holster are clear of clothing and finger is outside of trigger guard
E-nd the action by slowly re-holstering the pistol
*Other than a mechanical failure of the pistol, negligent discharges when drawing or re-holstering are always due to a mistake by the shooter. These mistakes are overwhelmingly caused by excessive speed and sloppiness. From this point on in every Covert Carry Class I will reserve final say on whether or not your holster is worn properly, in a suitable location and is appropriate for your body type and the pistol being used. It will be a requirement for all attendees to bring a belt holster along with their desired appendix holster. An inexpensive belt holster is worth the investment and should be integrated into any concealment training regardless of primary carry method.
Agreed. My comments were not on the use of carry for untrained personnel nor the decision of a trainer to prohibit the mode of carry. It was only about this is by no means a new concept. New to some. New to younger shooters. But not new.
I think CoryCop25 meant to say "popularized by" instead of "invented" as that's what research into the subject indicated.
As for myself, I couldn't appendix carry safely or comfortably, even if I were so inclined
One of my Foremen lost his nephew about five years ago. Appendix carry. was sitting down and fiddling with it, shot himself in the leg. Hit the Femoral artery.
The operative word in this story is not "appendix", it is "fiddling with it."
As I posted elsewhere, I do appreciate a fair warning from firearms instructors about their rules. Makes it a lot easier to select whose classes I will not take. I am glad I trained with Larry before I started to carry in AIWB.
I know. He was supposedly shifting it on his waist to sit. I really wasn't going to ask the details as he was near tears at the time. That being said, it was a holster which by its design pointed the muzzle at his thigh. Whatever the point of failure, be it the holster, the firearm, or a finger, the result was lethal. It aches my heart a bit even now to think of it.
Here is what CTT-Mike Pannone posted on his facebook:
***No student was or has been injured in a CTT-Solutions class. This PSA is to ensure it stays that way***
There have been several incidents I have been informed of where students in handgun classes carrying in a concealed appendix holster have discharged their pistol while re-holstering with subsequent injury. Therefore, I will be instituting a much stricter program of instruction and range policy designed to make every effort to ensure that all holsters in class are properly worn and safe for use both in and out of class. My evaluation will be based on body type, holster design/location and trigger design/weight. It will be in your best interest to have a belt slide holster and a cover garment suitable for use with it if you are planning to shoot from appendix in the event I deem your set-up unsuitable.
APPENDIX CARRY IS NOT FOR EVERYONE AND IS LIMITED TO CERTAIN BODY TYPES AND SKILL LEVELS. DO NOT ASSUME THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU BUY A GOOD QUALITY HOLSTER THAT YOU ARE FINE. THE HOLSTER MUST BE WORN PROPERLY AND IN THE PROPER LOCATION AND THE GUN MUST HAVE A TRIGGER THAT IS SUITABLE FOR CONCEALED CARRY.
The abovementioned problem is the result of one or more of the following factors:
• Holster selection- certain body types cannot wear an appendix holster without their stomach forcing the gun into a position where it is pointed at their legs or genitals. When I carry appendix my pistol is not pointed at any part of my body unless I get in an awkward position.
• Holster location- the holster genre is call “appendix” and if one looks on an anatomical chart, your appendix is not in the center of your body where your navel is. Improper wear causes it to be a safety concern by orienting the muzzle at the legs or genitals.
• Trigger weight and design- a striker fired gun with a chambered round and an aftermarket lightened trigger is NOT suitable for concealed carry in an appendix holster with a round chambered in my classes. You can carry what you want on your time but NOT IN AN OPEN ENROLLMENT CLASS. I am quite confident in my skills and
1.) I carry a DA/SA CZ P07 which gives me a much greater level of inherent safety.
2.) When I did carry a striker fired gun the trigger was of stock weight with stock parts.
• Technique and skill- when one is learning he/she should be going exceptionally slow so as to be able to identify EXACTLY the method by which they manage their gun and garment in conjunction with each other. With bad technique any firearm related task becomes risky and when learning new skills, speed can injure or worse.
• Attention to detail- Don’t paw at a garment or gun to draw it or try and stuff it back in your holster like a sandwich into a bag. Think of the desired end state and never forget the nature of the device in your hands.
When re-holstering strictly adhere to the following steps:
S-low down, straighten your trigger finger along the frame and well outside the trigger guard
A-lways ensure the garment is completely cleared from the holster and surrounding area
F-inal visual check that gun/holster are clear of clothing and finger is outside of trigger guard
E-nd the action by slowly re-holstering the pistol
*Other than a mechanical failure of the pistol, negligent discharges when drawing or re-holstering are always due to a mistake by the shooter. These mistakes are overwhelmingly caused by excessive speed and sloppiness. From this point on in every Covert Carry Class I will reserve final say on whether or not your holster is worn properly, in a suitable location and is appropriate for your body type and the pistol being used. It will be a requirement for all attendees to bring a belt holster along with their desired appendix holster. An inexpensive belt holster is worth the investment and should be integrated into any concealment training regardless of primary carry method.
The Shield that's CCWd in appendix, I left the very heavy "MA approved" stock trigger on the gun. It's the heaviest DA trigger I have ever experienced, and that's fine by me. I didn't test the trigger weight (MA requires 10lbs on striker fired guns I recall to be complaint ), but it's heavy. Feels heavier than 10lbs. Yes, it would be nice to add an APEX set up to smooth out and lighten the trigger, but for that method of CCW, as Mike et al make clear, that's not the appropriate place for it. The DA on re holster would mean they must have been breaking the key safety rules and had their finger on that trigger, or perhaps something else (clothing, buckle, etc) was caught in the trigger guard?
Outlander Systems
06-24-15, 17:32
The DA on re holster would mean they must have been breaking the key safety rules and had their finger on that trigger, or perhaps something else (clothing, buckle, etc) was caught in the trigger guard?
I seem to remember people having ND's from the drawstring balls on fleece jackets getting caught up in the trigger guard on reholstering.
AIWB isn't inherently less safe than any other method of carry. The only difference with AIWB is that, if you **** up, you're dead.
http://gunfreezone.net/wordpress/index.php/2015/06/18/7-june-2015-burro-canyon-gunshot-wound-incident/
7 June 2015 Burro Canyon Gunshot Wound Incident After Action Report
*This after action report is for one primary purpose; for the betterment of the firearms training community and serve as a guide for best practices for other trainers, range officers, RSOs and anyone hosting a range to improve or maintain their emergency action plans and standards. This is NOT an invitation to debate about holster styles, the four safety rules, unholstering/holstering techniques or denigrate the wounded.
*On Sunday 7 June 2015 at approximately 2:30pm I had just given a brief on the Tueller Drill, my RSO Enrique added to the lesson when I heard the sound of a single gun shot and then the distinct sound of a man in pain from the adjacent range to our own. I quickly walked over past the edge of the berm blocking my view and saw a man checking his abdominal area, I asked what happened and he responded that he had shot himself. At that point I ran over to the patient and the following occurred.
http://weaponsman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/7-June-2015-Burro-Canyon-Gunshot-Wound-Incident.jpg
I seem to remember people having ND's from the drawstring balls on fleece jackets getting caught up in the trigger guard on reholstering.
AIWB isn't inherently less safe than any other method of carry. The only difference with AIWB is that, if you **** up, you're dead.
http://gunfreezone.net/wordpress/index.php/2015/06/18/7-june-2015-burro-canyon-gunshot-wound-incident/
As you say, it's not less safe per se, it has less room for error.
Outlander Systems
06-24-15, 18:28
As you say, it's not less safe per se, it has less room for error.
Razor thin, my good man. Razor thin.
I'll admit I've never carried AIWB and never will due to my build. I'd like to be educated as to how, in a class environment, you can draw without getting really close to flagging the next guy down the line? Isn't this the reason cross draw and shoulder aren't allowed any more? A traditional 3 to 4 o'clock holster places the muzzle in a safe direction for the complete draw cycle. I imagine, if you could afford it, LAV would be glad to do a one on one AIWB class with an individual, but I can certainly see his concern in a group class.
Outlander Systems
06-24-15, 19:54
A traditional 3 to 4 o'clock holster places the muzzle in a safe direction for the complete draw cycle.
For me, the lack of appeal of AIWB is the amount of CAS "Fast Draw" work I had done in the past with single action revolvers. As soon as the tip of the muzzle breaks leather, it is pointing down range at the target, allowing an immediate shot. It is less of an up and out, and more of a rotated out, draw stroke for me.
MountainRaven
06-24-15, 20:37
I'll admit I've never carried AIWB and never will due to my build. I'd like to be educated as to how, in a class environment, you can draw without getting really close to flagging the next guy down the line? Isn't this the reason cross draw and shoulder aren't allowed any more? A traditional 3 to 4 o'clock holster places the muzzle in a safe direction for the complete draw cycle. I imagine, if you could afford it, LAV would be glad to do a one on one AIWB class with an individual, but I can certainly see his concern in a group class.
I don't carry AIWB - it just isn't comfortable and concealable for me - but when I tried it, I cannot recall having ever done anything with a gun carried AIWB that would come close to flagging anybody except someone down range of me.
Maybe I just draw funny.
I don't carry AIWB - it just isn't comfortable and concealable for me - but when I tried it, I cannot recall having ever done anything with a gun carried AIWB that would come close to flagging anybody except someone down range of me.
Maybe I just draw funny.
Im with you. I don't see how or why you would point the muzzle away from or perpendicular to the target before you point it towards the target.
When you start to introduce par times that are outside the capabilities of one to fifteen of your shooters, you can get some weird "shortcuts" in an effort to make the time. I am not even talking anything crazy, just outside their comfort zone, or capability, period.
How about the reloads under stress with new, or aspiring students? Never seen that muzzle start to work across the line? Odd things happen.
Eschewing training with a world-class instructor because they do not allow AIWB, in an open enrollment class, is an odd response. You can work on draw stroke, presentation and re-holstering anywhere, at anytime from your AIWB rig. Further, maybe it's time to start getting in to invite only, or closed enrollment classes if AIWB is of utmost concern.
Now I understand latest video from pistoltraining that popped up in my youtube subscriptions.
I carry AIWB for several years. With hammer fired, LEM trigger HK pistols I feel quite comfortable holstering, while holding my thumb over hammer. But I was not comfortable doing it with Glock (actually to point I decided not to do it at all). Now I face decision if I will carry my SFP9-SF this way and this is not easy decision. And I perfectly understand any shooting instructor that is uncomfortable about bunch of people with different skill levels, different equipment and crazy ideas trying give this last (final?) push on this stubborn pistol that does not want to sit in the holster (it worked fine last time!).
There is "light in the tunnel" for those who want to carry striker fired "SA" pistol AIWB: new BB6 pistol from BB Tech Gmbh does have clever manual trigger safety (at first glance looks like HK magazine release paddles). Some other clever things there as well (QD slide red dot mount for eg.).
But with hammer or manual safety it requires conscious effort to make sure. Reflexes are good, but in AIWB not good enough.
I have no problems with instructors prohibiting certain carry methods or equipment from their classes. They do what they feel they have to to minimize the potential for injury and their exposure if/when it occurs. Remember the Serpa?
Having said that, it seems like over the past year the training industry has shifted towards more classes focusing on concealed carry, vs the 1000 round count, bring your war belt and shemagh, blaze-a-thons. In the last 2 years, I've shifted my training priorities to my handgun, as well as less lethal/combatives. More recently, my focus has been on concealed/off duty carry and the guns I use for that (Darn you Greg Bell and your J-frame threads! Stop spending my money!).
With that comes more students, myself included, who want to work with carry set ups other than the strong side OWB. While I agree that "train like you fight" is mindset based and not equipment based, at some point it makes sense to go to class with your carry set up, to get an instructor's take on the concept, and test it out a little (though you should be practicing on your own).
If you're at a point where you're still fighting your gear, then it isn't for you. If you're brand new to the gun, the carry method, or both, then going to a class with AIWB is a solid no-go. If the carry method doesn't jibe with the points of instruction, again, that's a no-go. I wouldn't do a precision rifle or fighting carbine course with AIWB, just as I wouldn't do a concealed carry class in my plates and MOLLE belt.
I still want to train with Vickers and Pannone; I'm sure I can learn a lot from them. Having said that, I do like AIWB for some situations, particularly off duty. I want to work on that, and I also want some more professional instruction on the topic. If instructors don't want students to run the method (with reasonable rationale), that's fine, but then students, even the squared away ones, will go elsewhere to spend their time, money, and ammo. It's not a knock on those who don't want it in their classes, but a judgement and value call for the students that it affects.
My take on the "open enrollment vs closed/private class" issue is this: let's see more closed classes. Let's see more instructors and booking companies limit class sizes or turn down students who can't be vetted. In all the trainings I've been to, the ones that were booked by third party companies always had the most "that guys" (Those guys?). Maybe it's the writers, but I don't read many AARs that include the instructor or hosts pulling problem shooters off the line. The only time I saw a student get pulled off the line was a course run by a smaller, regional training group. They convinced him to self-deselect before a safety issue developed. I'd also add that this was a class with about 16 students and 3 instructors, so ratio was not a factor. I also don't see many applications for student enrollment in courses. There's often a mention in the course description that students should have xyz prior experience, but there doesn't seem to be any method for vetting. Some classes and instructors may run a standards CoF at the start, but by then the student's already paid and traveled, which does make it harder to dismiss them for not performing.
AIWB, like it or not, is here to stay. Some trainers teach it and run it. Holster makers support the method, and folks are carrying like this in classes, on the range, and on the street. Heck, we have threads here discussing the merits and pitfalls, and debating whether the JM Custon, Dale Fricke, or Raven offerings are best, yet we suddenly think it's not good for classes? Yep, the margin for error is far slimmer than with other methods, you have to slow your draw and certainly your holstering, certain body types need not apply (I'm borderline- it's gun and holster dependent), and frankly, I don't think it covers many people's needs 100%. Perhaps if instructors limited their class sizes or instructor ratios, or enforced a standard for attendance, blanket bans on hardware wouldn't be necessary. It strikes me as "lowest common denominator" training that we (especially those in the military or LE) bemoan. Liability will never be eliminated. But, a combination of actually vetting students and limiting sizes, combined with the already used "you shot yourself, you sue yourself" waiver can go a long way in preventing liability.
The other issue is reputation in the age of the Internet. If someone gets shot in one of your classes, it will be on the web before brass call at the end of the day. Solution: stop admitting first time shooters into your Tactical AK for Home Defense class or guys who need walking canes into AR+vehicle classes (I've seen it).
Yeah, their house, their rules, but if LAV and other big name trainers started running cold ranges and made students unload and show clear after each relay or reloading break, would we be saying the same?
I have no problems with instructors prohibiting certain carry methods or equipment from their classes. They do what they feel they have to to minimize the potential for injury and their exposure if/when it occurs. Remember the Serpa?
Having said that, it seems like over the past year the training industry has shifted towards more classes focusing on concealed carry, vs the 1000 round count, bring your war belt and shemagh, blaze-a-thons. In the last 2 years, I've shifted my training priorities to my handgun, as well as less lethal/combatives. More recently, my focus has been on concealed/off duty carry and the guns I use for that (Darn you Greg Bell and your J-frame threads! Stop spending my money!).
With that comes more students, myself included, who want to work with carry set ups other than the strong side OWB. While I agree that "train like you fight" is mindset based and not equipment based, at some point it makes sense to go to class with your carry set up, to get an instructor's take on the concept, and test it out a little (though you should be practicing on your own).
If you're at a point where you're still fighting your gear, then it isn't for you. If you're brand new to the gun, the carry method, or both, then going to a class with AIWB is a solid no-go. If the carry method doesn't jibe with the points of instruction, again, that's a no-go. I wouldn't do a precision rifle or fighting carbine course with AIWB, just as I wouldn't do a concealed carry class in my plates and MOLLE belt.
I still want to train with Vickers and Pannone; I'm sure I can learn a lot from them. Having said that, I do like AIWB for some situations, particularly off duty. I want to work on that, and I also want some more professional instruction on the topic. If instructors don't want students to run the method (with reasonable rationale), that's fine, but then students, even the squared away ones, will go elsewhere to spend their time, money, and ammo. It's not a knock on those who don't want it in their classes, but a judgement and value call for the students that it affects.
My take on the "open enrollment vs closed/private class" issue is this: let's see more closed classes. Let's see more instructors and booking companies limit class sizes or turn down students who can't be vetted. In all the trainings I've been to, the ones that were booked by third party companies always had the most "that guys" (Those guys?). Maybe it's the writers, but I don't read many AARs that include the instructor or hosts pulling problem shooters off the line. The only time I saw a student get pulled off the line was a course run by a smaller, regional training group. They convinced him to self-deselect before a safety issue developed. I'd also add that this was a class with about 16 students and 3 instructors, so ratio was not a factor. I also don't see many applications for student enrollment in courses. There's often a mention in the course description that students should have xyz prior experience, but there doesn't seem to be any method for vetting. Some classes and instructors may run a standards CoF at the start, but by then the student's already paid and traveled, which does make it harder to dismiss them for not performing.
AIWB, like it or not, is here to stay. Some trainers teach it and run it. Holster makers support the method, and folks are carrying like this in classes, on the range, and on the street. Heck, we have threads here discussing the merits and pitfalls, and debating whether the JM Custon, Dale Fricke, or Raven offerings are best, yet we suddenly think it's not good for classes? Yep, the margin for error is far slimmer than with other methods, you have to slow your draw and certainly your holstering, certain body types need not apply (I'm borderline- it's gun and holster dependent), and frankly, I don't think it covers many people's needs 100%. Perhaps if instructors limited their class sizes or instructor ratios, or enforced a standard for attendance, blanket bans on hardware wouldn't be necessary. It strikes me as "lowest common denominator" training that we (especially those in the military or LE) bemoan. Liability will never be eliminated. But, a combination of actually vetting students and limiting sizes, combined with the already used "you shot yourself, you sue yourself" waiver can go a long way in preventing liability.
The other issue is reputation in the age of the Internet. If someone gets shot in one of your classes, it will be on the web before brass call at the end of the day. Solution: stop admitting first time shooters into your Tactical AK for Home Defense class or guys who need walking canes into AR+vehicle classes (I've seen it).
Yeah, their house, their rules, but if LAV and other big name trainers started running cold ranges and made students unload and show clear after each relay or reloading break, would we be saying the same?
I agree with just about everything you've said - except the part about still wanting to train with them. As I said earlier, Alias needs to limit class sizes, especially for more than the basic pistol/carbine course. I understand the worry of a liability, especially for a business like Alias but this leads to the window-licking policies that big Army incorporates on their ranges. If you don't know what I mean, I'm not explaining because its just embarrassing. Lets use the lowest common denominator to drive our policies. They just need to add a clause stating that if, at any point, an instructor feels a student is being unsafe they either will either sit the drill out or be forced out of the class and forfeit the cost of tuition because they failed to come prepared.
When I first started, I attended a Vickers carbine class that required a pistol. It was my first professional class. I had just bought my G17 and didn't even have a holster yet for it. The Streamlight rep was kind enough to let me use his kydex OWB holster (RCS clone). On one of the drills, I went to re-holster and part of my shirt got stuck in the holster, preventing me from re-holstering. I even did a look re-holster, and the kydex was ACU colored. Some guys on the line behind me saw it at the same time I did and helped me unscrew the situation. (If any of you guys are reading this THANK YOU.)
I learned two really good things that day: resetting the pistol during recoil, and even look holstering isn't foolproof when you have to look nearly behind you. Granted, I was about 60 pounds heavier during that course, so it is easier to do today (especially when you don't have a rifle slung on you); however to me it is still more dangerous than AIWB which I can simply look down and see if there is anything in there. With most kydex pancake holsters, the gun is pointed directly at your thigh. Guns are dangerous.
At the end of the day, safety comes down to the individual. I've seen some reckless guys carrying AIWB. I don't blame any instructor who doesn't want a student to shoot himself in a class. Most people re-holster without looking.
I type this while having that same G17 pointed at my right testicle and leg.
I understand the worry of a liability...
Jeff Gonzalez covered some things you are seemingly missing in your understanding and analysis cycle.
Forgoing top tier instructors because you can't use a certain type of holster is seemingly the epitome of foolishness.
Jeff Gonzalez covered some things you are seemingly missing in your understanding and analysis cycle.
Forgoing top tier instructors because you can't use a certain type of holster is seemingly the epitome of foolishness.
Yeah I read that one too, but still wasn't able to wrap my head around it. These guys all have incredible resumes and experience that I respect to the utmost, but I am failing to buy into this policy. I see it making sense as a business move, but it does nothing to further shooting sports or the ability of responsible civilians to defend themselves. I still think limiting class sizes and vetting students for the more technical classes would be a more productive answer, this is just the easy one.
And again, if it was one brand like the SERPA, I could understand because there are tons of other options out there that are better. But it is an entire carry position, the merits of which are very hard to argue. Obviously there are cons to it, potentially large ones, but that is true of everything.
Getting the gun to the presentation position from AIWB vs. SS OWB with a cover garment is not all that different - in fact they are pretty close to equal for me. I am a slow learner, I guess...
I liken this to "we will not allow you to wear flip flops on our range in open enrollment classes". Ok, but I can still wear shoes, and still absorb all the more critical instruction about everything from the press out to breaking the first shot....right?
If so, the holster "requirement" is tertiary, at best, in my consideration of things on which I will base a decision for class attendance.
Getting the gun to the presentation position from AIWB vs. SS OWB with a cover garment is not all that different - in fact they are pretty close to equal for me. I am a slow learner, I guess...
I liken this to "we will not allow you to wear flip flops on our range in open enrollment classes". Ok, but I can still wear shoes, and still absorb all the more critical instruction about everything from the press out to breaking the first shot....right?
If so, the holster "requirement" is tertiary, at best, in my consideration of things on which I will base a decision for class attendance.
I agree. Nothing stops you from taking education from class home and applying it to aiwb.
hahaha, poor LAV, he's a lightning rod. the guy couldn't mention the time of day without a squadron of people already lined up to disagree, criticize, etc...
IMO, (A)IWB is a concealment carry, it's not a combat carry and of ALL the methods of carry, this seems to be at the risky end. I could be wrong but I don't think a training class is the place for this type of carry unless, of course, it's specifically a covert carry class. certainly, if a carbine is present the justification for concealed carry goes away.
from an instructor point of view, I can definitely understand why they wouldn't want this in an open enrollment class. in a more specialized setting, with properly qualified and vetted trainees, I think it depends on their competence but nonetheless, it would be up to the trainer to determine their competence and his willingness to accept risk. and of course, in this class, a portion of the training should deal with the method of reholserting a concealed handgun.
from a personal point of view, deliberately pointing a firearm at my junk gives me the heebie-jeebies. and while I do sometimes carry AIWB, I limit that carry to DA/SA guns where I am able to put my thumb on the hammer while reholstering. more than that, I simply don't ever put a striker-fired gun in my pants. OWB is fine however...
Larry Vickers
06-25-15, 17:32
Yeah I read that one too, but still wasn't able to wrap my head around it. These guys all have incredible resumes and experience that I respect to the utmost, but I am failing to buy into this policy. I see it making sense as a business move, but it does nothing to further shooting sports or the ability of responsible civilians to defend themselves. I still think limiting class sizes and vetting students for the more technical classes would be a more productive answer, this is just the easy one.
And again, if it was one brand like the SERPA, I could understand because there are tons of other options out there that are better. But it is an entire carry position, the merits of which are very hard to argue. Obviously there are cons to it, potentially large ones, but that is true of everything.
You are missing the point - entirely. I have taught over 5000 students in the last 10 years in classes with the overwhelming majority being in open enrollment classes. Thank God I have not had anyone shoot themselves - and I am going to do everything to keep it that way. One of the safety checks you do as an instructor is watch finger placement as the students reholster - this is impossible to do AIWB.
Your number one problem is you can't seem to see things from our perspective. If someone shoots themself in my class the number one thing everyone will hear is 'did you hear about the guy who shot himself in the Vickers class?' You won't even hear the students name. I'm a big boy and I understand that's the world we live in but everything is made dramatically worse from a safety and liability point of view if the student shoots himself while reholstering AIWB. That's a situation I want to avoid - sorry if you can't see it from someone else's perspective.
You are missing the point - entirely. I have taught over 5000 students in the last 10 years in classes with the overwhelming majority being in open enrollment classes. Thank God I have not had anyone shoot themselves - and I am going to do everything to keep it that way. One of the safety checks you do as an instructor is watch finger placement as the students reholster - this is impossible to do AIWB.
Your number one problem is you can't seem to see things from our perspective. If someone shoots themself in my class the number one thing everyone will hear is 'did you hear about the guy who shot himself in the Vickers class?' You won't even hear the students name. I'm a big boy and I understand that's the world we live in but everything is made dramatically worse from a safety and liability point of view if the student shoots himself while reholstering AIWB. That's a situation I want to avoid - sorry if you can't see it from someone else's perspective.
That's the part I was missing. Somehow I failed to realize this part, which makes a big difference. Makes more sense now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You can work on draw stroke, presentation and re-holstering anywhere, at anytime from your AIWB rig.
I can and do work on everything from my AIWB any time I practice on my own; if that's the sole logic, then why take classes at all?
Forgoing a top notch instructor would make a sense to me if the class content, whether by the curriculum content or by regulations, doesn't address my training needs. If my goal is to go and learn fundamentals of gun handling or marksmanship etc, then I wouldn't give a damn what holster to use or even what gun to shoot. If I want a competition oriented class, I'll be shooting my game gun out of my game holster reloading from game pouches.
However, if the class is billed as geared towards concealed carry (not saying that LAV's classes necessarily are), then the reason I am paying the top notch instructor his fees is because I want his expert opinion how I am doing with a specific gun that I carry concealed in a way that I do it every day, IWB, AIWB, whathaveyou. If we lost that to liability concerns, that means the we won't have any dedicated CCW/civilian oriented training programs available. If this is what's training environment with insurances, liabilities etc is driving to, well, that's not particularly great, is it?
I can and do work on everything from my AIWB any time I practice on my own; if that's the sole logic, then why take classes at all?
Forgoing a top notch instructor would make a sense to me if the class content, whether by the curriculum content or by regulations, doesn't address my training needs. If my goal is to go and learn fundamentals of gun handling or marksmanship etc, then I wouldn't give a damn what holster to use or even what gun to shoot. If I want a competition oriented class, I'll be shooting my game gun out of my game holster reloading from game pouches.
However, if the class is billed as geared towards concealed carry (not saying that LAV's classes necessarily are), then the reason I am paying the top notch instructor his fees is because I want his expert opinion how I am doing with a specific gun that I carry concealed in a way that I do it every day, IWB, AIWB, whathaveyou. If we lost that to liability concerns, that means the we won't have any dedicated CCW/civilian oriented training programs available. If this is what's training environment with insurances, liabilities etc is driving to, well, that's not particularly great, is it?
Agreed. From an instructor standpoint I cant fault Mr. Vickers for mitigating the risk of an injury to a student. Especially in an Open Enrollment class where you might have a shooter of thirty years on either side of a first time attendee to formal instruction, and noone knows who is who. Hell, even if I didn't think it was a reasonable restriction, I would certainly defer to "your business, your rules". If that meant I had to seek out other training venues, maybe in a smaller group setting, so be it. So nothing else I think about this really has to do with LAV's decision.
However, some of the comments in this thread are uncharacteristically irrational among a group of guys who fully understand weapons safety. I mean, damn. "ONLY if you carry a DAO is it safe"? No. Unless we're buying into the gun grabber idea that sometimes guns just fire themselves, which I cant imagine anyone saying with a straight face. Chances that something could get into the trigger guard? Sure, maybe *different* than a 3/9 carry, but not *more*. You should always be aware of whats around your gun and in particular the trigger guard. Anything that can be said is a risk to AIWB can be said, with miniscule differences, about SSIWB. Which apparently we are against now...? So if you don't OWB carry, you're just a hazardous fool? I suppose at that point too, we should scale back carbine classes to be firing from a bench only. It's just irresponsible and dangerous to think that people of varying skill levels can be proficient enough to do such armed acrobatics as reload drills, stoppage drills, and heaven forbid transitions from rifle to pistol. Unconventional positions are so much more likely to get someone seriously hurt when the crazy guns just fire themselves off. Bench shooting, RSO clears the weapon, and moves with the student to watch them get in the traditional prone position before getting the keys, unlocking the ammo box, and handing the now-prone student his ammo ration. To think any students could be capable of more is to invite disaster.
But really, if anyone should understand how to avoid these negligent (okay...accidental) discharges, it should be us. Since we're the ones presenting factual information to the antis about weapons safety and cycle of operations that make it astronomically unlikely that any modern handgun will fire itself. So if we actually have members suggesting that we shouldn't trust our skills and equipment to be safe if we do our part, then maybe the gun grabbers are onto something.
Also, your body has more than just the femoral arteries. Yes, I've treated femoral bleeds. Never had anyone die who was bleeding from the femoral either. Getting shot at any angle by your own gun puts you at risk. Best not to shoot yourself. And since accidents happen anyway, I would be hesitant to attend a large class of unknown shooters without a range medic present and a thoroughly briefed CASPLAN should ANY injuries occur.
And for those saying you need to be super skinny...LOL what? I'll admit, I have a 29" waistline so it's not a concern. But just by looking at anatomy, one would have to be pretty obese to not be able to see their own pant line. Obese to the point where you should be far more concerned with the health risks of being so fat than with shooting yourself. And thats not a cruel dig on those who arent in their physical prime, I really cant imagine being anywhere close to a healthy weight but having a gut so far in front of me that I can't see my hands at my fly area. How do you take a piss in that case, just lean back and spray in the toilets direction and hope for the best? Your wives must love that.
Larry Vickers
06-26-15, 03:58
I can and do work on everything from my AIWB any time I practice on my own; if that's the sole logic, then why take classes at all?
Forgoing a top notch instructor would make a sense to me if the class content, whether by the curriculum content or by regulations, doesn't address my training needs. If my goal is to go and learn fundamentals of gun handling or marksmanship etc, then I wouldn't give a damn what holster to use or even what gun to shoot. If I want a competition oriented class, I'll be shooting my game gun out of my game holster reloading from game pouches.
However, if the class is billed as geared towards concealed carry (not saying that LAV's classes necessarily are), then the reason I am paying the top notch instructor his fees is because I want his expert opinion how I am doing with a specific gun that I carry concealed in a way that I do it every day, IWB, AIWB, whathaveyou. If we lost that to liability concerns, that means the we won't have any dedicated CCW/civilian oriented training programs available. If this is what's training environment with insurances, liabilities etc is driving to, well, that's not particularly great, is it?
Welcome to the world we live in now. Here's a couple things I'd say;
Just because an instructor doesn't allow use of AIWB doesn't mean it can't be a point of discussion in the class or one on one before or after a class - even if no live fire occurs the finer points can be addressed to answer any questions the student might have. This would allow the student to then implement those key points in his own training
At the end of the day you need to become your own teacher and have a basis of knowledge to fall back on and filter incoming info that you may receive to see if it is relevant or not
That's the way all of us started
Hope this helps
Welcome to the world we live in now. Here's a couple things I'd say;
Just because an instructor doesn't allow use of AIWB doesn't mean it can't be a point of discussion in the class or one on one before or after a class - even if no live fire occurs the finer points can be addressed to answer any questions the student might have. This would allow the student to then implement those key points in his own training
At the end of the day you need to become your own teacher and have a basis of knowledge to fall back on and filter incoming info that you may receive to see if it is relevant or not
That's the way all of us started
Hope this helps
I'm impressed with this reply, thank you Sir for articulating it so well. This speaks volumes to your intent and commitment to what, and who, you teach. On that note I have nothing left to say but I wish you the best, and a continued future of safe training.
Cheers.
QuickStrike
06-30-15, 13:57
Sorry, but I thought those set ups were for pocket carry with the pocket acting as a holster and the plastics acting to protect the trigger. What retains the gun and do you look the string around your junk ?
No.
Same concept as the Raven vanguard systems, except available for the G43.
Google a demo vid.
I can and do work on everything from my AIWB any time I practice on my own; if that's the sole logic, then why take classes at all?
After the gun is clear of the holster, everything else is the same. If you are of the same quality instructor as Larry Vickers or Mike Pannone, then rock on and practice on your own.
If not, there is so much more to the knowledge transfer than getting the gun from the holster to the presentation. Completely out of my analysis skill set, but I'd say that it's less than 1% of what I need to work on, or work on, when I am absorbing the instruction from a gun class.
I can tell you are animated about it, and if so, go and take a class from Todd Green, or sincere recommendation would be from John McPhee, and be done with it. Otherwise, stop with the attempt at being obtuse.
Ned Christiansen
07-01-15, 14:53
Not making light but thought it might lighten the discussion.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/Blackbeard%20AIWB.jpg?733
Not making light but thought it might lighten the discussion.
I think we can all agree appendix carry is far from new that's for sure. :cool:
I think we can all agree appendix carry is far from new that's for sure. :cool:
Not if you are Plaxico Burress
Not making light but thought it might lighten the discussion.
Are you implying the Navy developed the technique?
Singlestack Wonder
07-02-15, 12:26
Not making light but thought it might lighten the discussion.
Arrrggg.....You too can join the league of single nut pirates. Just give it a few more draws.....
Ned Christiansen
07-13-15, 10:21
For a 1911 at least, how about this?
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC04818.jpg
This was just a quicky mockup, screwed together, obviously the screws in the pic need to be shortened (have been), and for production there would be a better way to do it.
But, the hammer-block just flexes out of the way on the draw. And yes, you bet your jewels I made sure there's no way, no angle at which that little hammer guard can get into the trigger guard.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC04820.jpg
Cincinnatus
07-13-15, 13:00
That's pretty inventive. I like it.
Would it be custom fitted to any holster or made with a proprietary holster?
That's pretty inventive. I like it.
Would it be custom fitted to any holster or made with a proprietary holster?
X2.
Also the use that 1911 is showing gives me warm and fuzzies.
Since this doesn't use an appendix holster, would it be ok?
https://youtu.be/tHOi9sbATSk
Ned Christiansen
07-13-15, 19:23
Well if I were a holstermaker I would refine the idea and sell it. I welcome a holstermaker to use the idea. Always nice to get credit, of course.
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