View Full Version : Springfield TRP extractor issues
Nightstalker865
06-23-15, 22:01
My TRP was going to roll over 2500 rounds today at the range so I decided to try out the extractor test on it. Needless to say, it failed miserably.
1st: failure to eject
2nd: brass ejected down through the mag well
3rd: failure to eject
4th: failure to eject
5th: brass ejected down through the mag well.
I stopped at this point because I was just getting frustrated with the gun.
I then went ahead and loaded several mags and ran some drills with the gun. First two mags ran beautifully. Then the gremlin really showed up. After those first two mags I couldn't get through a single mag without having extraction issues as well as an occasional feeding issue.
Am I wishing on a star here for the gun to run for more than 2500 rounds without needing anything but cleaning? I know 1911's need a little TLC, but needing work at only 2500 rounds seems a bit crazy.
Gun details:
2014 build TRP.
Wilson BP GI guide rod.
Fresh Wilson 17lb recoil spring (installed before range trip)
10-8 spring plug
21lb main spring. (ILS deleted)
I use Wilson ETM 8rd mags in the gun
The gun was cleaned and lubed with FireClean before this range trip, as it had been right at 1000rds since I last cleaned it. I installed the fresh recoil spring while I had it apart.
I'll be calling SA in the next few days to get it sent in. I'm sure there won't be any issue with them fixing the gun, but hopefully this isn't something that needs to be done every 2500 rounds.
Anything I should mention to SA to have them address while it's there?
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hopetonbrown
06-23-15, 22:38
Tune your extractor
Sounds like you need an extractor tune.
Like they said, check extractor tension. Also any reason tension might be getting loose. I ended up adjusting my TRP extractor around 4k rounds after trying "the test" as well. Ended up over doing it and introducing failures to feed. Bought the weigand adjustment tools, all better now.
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RVTMaverick
06-24-15, 07:05
If I may be so bold as to ask.... What is this "extractor test" you guys are talking about?
Peace Jeff
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=131
10-8 extractor test. Good baseline for how your gun is functioning.
Have you tried the test before changing spring?
Nightstalker865
06-24-15, 08:27
I figured it was a tension issue. I've never done an adjustment before so I just thought I'd send it back to SA. I'll look into the procedure and see if it's something I want to tackle. I was just a little surprised it needed it after so little shooting. I kind of had in my head that the gun should go 5K rounds or so before I needed to dig into it.
Thanks guys.
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Nightstalker865
06-24-15, 08:31
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=131
10-8 extractor test. Good baseline for how your gun is functioning.
Have you tried the test before changing spring?
No, this was the first time I had tried the shooting test. I did the bench test when I first bought the gun, but haven't messed with it since then. It held the brass just fine during that test. Hindsight, maybe I should have done the shooting test as well, as it may very well have failed right out of the box.
I have always been told to toss in a fresh recoil spring every 2K or so to keep it running well, so I did that while I had it down for cleaning.
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Adjusting with the tool set I mentioned is insanely easy. But you'll spend about 60 bucks at Brownells for the gauges and adjusting tool assuming you already have a trigger pull scale, otherwise probably 70-80 total.
Possibly dumb question: Do you load rounds by dropping them into the chamber and then releasing the slide?
RVTMaverick
06-24-15, 08:52
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=131
10-8 extractor test. Good baseline for how your gun is functioning.
Have you tried the test before changing spring?
Awesome, Thanks for the link Bear..
Peace Jeff
Nightstalker865
06-24-15, 09:21
Adjusting with the tool set I mentioned is insanely easy. But you'll spend about 60 bucks at Brownells for the gauges and adjusting tool assuming you already have a trigger pull scale, otherwise probably 70-80 total.
Possibly dumb question: Do you load rounds by dropping them into the chamber and then releasing the slide?
No, I always load from the magazine.
Thanks for the heads up on the tool set, I'll look into it.
No Problem, hope it helps.
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I also recommend learning how to tune & adjust 1911 extractors. I've had extractors go for 16,000 rounds (an Ed Brown) before breaking the hook off; then replace it with the same model, only to have the 2nd one chip at 2,000 rounds.
I've found the Kimber and Wilson "Bullet Proof" extractors work well with only tensioning, but still prefer to polish up the hook area. I've found some Kimber extractors not holding tension too well after ~5,000 rounds. I have also had a broken hook with one Wilson extractor at ~2,500 rounds.
My current favorite is the EGW HD extractor. It does need the hook beveled/fitted, however, with my little files:)
I haven't yet bought the Weigand tool and gauges. Perhaps I'll try them the next time I order parts.
My TRP was going to roll over 2500 rounds today at the range so I decided to try out the extractor test on it. Needless to say, it failed miserably.
1st: failure to eject
2nd: brass ejected down through the mag well
3rd: failure to eject
4th: failure to eject
5th: brass ejected down through the mag well.
I stopped at this point because I was just getting frustrated with the gun.
I then went ahead and loaded several mags and ran some drills with the gun. First two mags ran beautifully. Then the gremlin really showed up. After those first two mags I couldn't get through a single mag without having extraction issues as well as an occasional feeding issue.
Am I wishing on a star here for the gun to run for more than 2500 rounds without needing anything but cleaning? I know 1911's need a little TLC, but needing work at only 2500 rounds seems a bit crazy.
Gun details:
2014 build TRP.
Wilson BP GI guide rod.
Fresh Wilson 17lb recoil spring (installed before range trip)
10-8 spring plug
21lb main spring. (ILS deleted)
I use Wilson ETM 8rd mags in the gun
1) Don't tune your extractor. Throw it away. Tune a new extractor if it needs it, trash an old one.
2) If the Wilson spring is a flat wire, get rid of it and get a proper Wilson or Wolff spring (same springs).
3) 23lb mainspring. You need to slow the slide down.
4) If it's not a Wilson 47+p HD 7 round mag or maybe an ETM +p flat wire mag, ditch the Wilson mags.
Your pistol is likely inertia feeding, that's why most extractors die. A light mainspring and Wilson mags is a very common combination that cause 'extractor problems' quite frequently. The extractor is only showing the symptoms of the problem.
I recommend Powermags with Tripp kits, or even Wilsons with Tripp kits or 10 round springs and followers. It makes it a seven round mag, but a seven round mag that works.
Colt and EGW make good extractors, Wilson's Bulletproof is nice, but I never used one for a lot of miles....
Why the disdain for flat wire recoil springs?
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hopetonbrown
06-24-15, 16:05
Samuse, that is some crazy talk.
OP, you need to learn how to change your oil, sparkplugs and filters on your classic car. Nothing unusual about adjusting extractor tension. Tuning an extractor entails removing it, inserting it backwards into the rear of the extractor tunnel, and bend it. Reinsert, check tension with a live round, repeat as necessary.
Sending your gun back to SA for extractor tension is like going to the dealership to have them install new wiper blades. This is why the 1911 is not for everyone.
thirteen/autumns
06-24-15, 16:50
Samuse, that is some crazy talk.
Samuse usually gives darn good advice when it comes to the 1911 platform... Minus his hate for WC ;). I have seen most of his posts on the 1911 platform and they are usually spot on. I will not agree on the Flat Wire Recoil Springs being garbage though as I believe those will be the standard, but either way :p
OP when you mention failure to extract on some of them you state "brass ejected down the magwell" and others just state "failure to extract." What happens to the ones that just "failure to extract?" The ones that eject down the magwell are easily Dx as a tension issue or geometry... Most likely both.
*edited to add... Samuse is correct in that if you plan to tune your own extractor completely ditch the old one. If you are mechanically inclined, have a steady hand, some small files, and do alittle homework tuning an extractor is easy. Then again you do have a Springfield 1911 who happens to have one of the best customer services in the gun industry, so if you don't feel up to the task I don't blame you. Have never heard of Springfield not coming thru for the customer.*
I don't hate Wilson, far from it, I like a lot of the stuff they make. I have had had repeated issues trying to use their mags for very long though. The best ones I used were the 7 round +p and the 8 round ETM+p mags. The 47Ds suck, the ETMs are better but have weak springs. Their flat wire recoil springs for 5" guns is a gimmick. Plain and simple. It's a Glock 17 recoil spring, nothing more.
A regular 16 or 17lb Wolff spring will last every bit as long as the flat wires will and the flat wire have shown to cause issues in some guns, while doing what? It's a spring. It doesn't do anything but smack the slide back forward.
As a rule, I don't tune old extractors. They lose tension and quit doing their thing because they die. Toss it and get a new one. In a proper 45, they are very close to a drop-in part and usually only need a little tension. Yes, you can radius and polish, and tune until it's perfect, but it's not completely necessary. An extractor in a gun that runs correctly will easily outlast the barrel with no retuning...
Set up correctly, a 1911 is a very low maintenance gun. They rival any handgun for reliability and surpass most anything in durability.
What issues have you heard of or seen with the flat wire spring? Agree that's it's just a spring, but I'm curious.
47d mags gave me problems first range trip I had them. Inertia feed devices.
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hopetonbrown
06-25-15, 03:22
I took a 1911 maintenance class with John Jardine in 2012, he was adamant about 18.5# recoil springs. I switched to the flat wire recoil spring for my Wilson in 2013. Have shot a few IDPA matches and some classes with Hack and Proctor with it in my Supergrade; works like a champ. I wish people were a little more DIY with their 1911s, so the phones and gunsmiths weren't busied with stuff the end user should know how to deal with.
beschatten
07-04-15, 13:12
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=131
10-8 extractor test. Good baseline for how your gun is functioning.
Have you tried the test before changing spring?
Fun fact: It actually came from Ken H. and was adopted by LAV. Just sayin' before you continue to spout 10-8, 10-8, 10-8 all over the board.
As a rule, I don't tune old extractors. They lose tension and quit doing their thing because they die. Toss it and get a new one. In a proper 45, they are very close to a drop-in part and usually only need a little tension. Yes, you can radius and polish, and tune until it's perfect, but it's not completely necessary. An extractor in a gun that runs correctly will easily outlast the barrel with no retuning...
Set up correctly, a 1911 is a very low maintenance gun. They rival any handgun for reliability and surpass most anything in durability.
This. Toss your extractor and get a new one. I tried the whole "retuning an extractor" and it just ended up losing tension again.
I like Wilson BP extractors. They require a lot less work, and I have had not one break on me yet.
A buddy of mine just called me today. He broke an EGW HD extractor with about 15K rounds on it.
Wilson ETM magazines......
I know the gun and it's in spec. I told him to order a Wilson Bulletproof and throw it in. It'll run.
Nightstalker865
07-04-15, 23:42
Gents,
I wanted to say thank you again for the info given. I have decided to send the gun in to SACS this time to have them go through it. There is another issue I would like to have them look at while it's in there anyways.
To answer some of the questions asked earlier:
A standard Wolf non CS 17lb recoil spring was used. Previous to this spring change I was running a ISMI 18.5lb CS spring in the gun. It ran absolutely flawless with that spring. I was just wanting to try a lighter spring and see what difference it would make.
I have not tried a flat wire version and after reading this thread, I'm glad I didn't waste money on one.
As for the FTE's during the extractor testing, the rounds that didn't fall out through the magwell would get jammed nose up between the slide and breach face. I didn't have a single round eject properly when running the test.
I also picked up a couple the ETM+P mags to try once the gun comes back. I will most likely end up going back with a fresh 18.5lb CS spring again after all this is said and done. The gun seemed to really like that setup.
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That 18.5lb ISMI spring was probably about the same as a 17lb Wolff.
ISMI doesn't wind their springs right. They're the same diameter and either fit tight on the guiderod and drag, or fall off the guiderod when you takenthe gun apart. Their firing pin springs are the same way.
Nightstalker865
07-05-15, 08:51
That 18.5lb ISMI spring was probably about the same as a 17lb Wolff.
ISMI doesn't wind their springs right. They're the same diameter and either fit tight on the guiderod and drag, or fall off the guiderod when you takenthe gun apart. Their firing pin springs are the same way.
Good to know. Looks like I may be just sticking with the 17lb Wolf spring then. Any reason I should consider going up to a 18.5lb Wolf? I know you mentioned I might try stepping the hammer spring up to a 23lb from the current 21lb.
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I've never seen any good reason to use a recoil spring heavier than 16lbs in a 5" 45.
A 23lb main will keep the slide in check, the 16 will push plenty hard to get the next round in there and the felt recoil will be a little tamer with a lighter recoil spring.
I've shot with just about every spring combo you can cobble up and anything over 16lbs start to kick like a mule and makes it increasingly difficult to rack the slide. I like a 23lb main for reliability and not just primer strikes.
I really like going to a 14lb recoil spring but it takes some good stout 7 round mags to do it reliably with hardball.
Nightstalker865
07-09-15, 13:11
Update:
Tried the bench test on the extractor and it held the round in place just fine. So I swapped in a 16lb CS spring and took the gun back to the range. Only ran 50rds through the gun as I needed to get out of there quick, but the gun ran flawlessly.
So it looks like the 17lb Wilson recoil spring I put in caused my issue. Or at least added to something else that ultimately took the gun down.
I didn't try the shooting extractor test today, but will next trip out. I was purely trying to see if the gun would function with the lighter spring installed.
Samuse, thank you very much for all the info. I have also picked up a few of the Wilson ETM +P mags to try in the gun on your recommendation. I will try a 23lb hammer spring in the gun next and see how it runs. How much change in the trigger should I expect going up in spring?
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I think going from a 19lb to a 23lb mainspring will increase the trigger pull by roughly 4oz.
Nightstalker865
07-09-15, 14:15
I think going from a 19lb to a 23lb mainspring will increase the trigger pull by roughly 4oz.
Good to hear it's not a whole lot. The gun currently has a 21lb mainspring in it. So jumping up to the 23lb shouldn't be much of a change at all. I feel that the trigger is exceptionally good right now, so I was hoping it wouldn't change much.
Thanks for the info sir.
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samuse clearly knows about 1911s. I have a TRP I'm using for competition that has a 19 lb mainspring, and I'm using Wilson ETM 8-round mags. Guess what happened to me recently. That's right, the factory extractor broke during a match. It has been replaced with an EGW HD, but even those can break.
I did in fact see behavior that looked like inertia feeding before the extractor broke. I don't know why I suddenly started seeing that because I'd never seen it before, over about 8,000 rounds. And then, *erk*, the extractor broke. Maybe it had cracked and was hanging on before snapping.
Anyway, I don't want to go back to the 23-lb mainspring because I love how the gun runs in its current setup, and how easy it is to rack the slide with the hammer down.
I'll have to think about this.
Enjoy your 1911s, I sure do mine.
Gotten the gun back from Springfield yet? I'm curious what they had to say.
I bailed on my factory extractor and fitted an EGW HD. It took some work and learning about extractor shaping along the way, but I'm sitting around 300 trouble free rounds now (needed to sort out a reloading problem).
Also, as samuse mentioned, a 14 pound recoil spring is awesome. It goes well with their over sized firing pin stop; it does require you to file your own radius however.
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