View Full Version : Activist takes down SC Confederate flag
http://heavy.com/news/2015/06/bree-newsome-woman-takes-down-confederate-flag-charleston-south-carolina-name-arrested-charges-photo-video-musician-activist-james-dyson-freebree/
I hope that since Michael Moore is paying the fines the judge realizes that any monetary fines will not be justice and that he/she must impose jail time. Although if MM wants to serve that time for them I would be ok with that.
There is just no pleasing some people.
There will be more copy cats.
Averageman
06-27-15, 15:32
So a Canadian wants to get it on the mix?
Yeah, that makes sense. Moore throws a firebomb every time there is some pro left issue to support.
What you can't accomplish by the legislative process will simply be done with complete disregard for the law because you have support of the mob.
Bree will be hailed as a new "Rosa Parks."
Man, I hope you are wrong about Bree. I hope she is scorned as an outsider that disrupted the peaceful and abiding operation of SC government with it's citizens and punished to the fullest extent of the law.
Someone is vandalizing monuments here http://www.mediaite.com/online/richmonds-jefferson-davis-statue-vandalized-with-black-lives-matter/ and as you can see the young white girls holding signs... the VCU campus is all through there and it's an art school with plenty of hipsters .. .this could have been done by white people but since it's anon it has the impact of driving white against black. .. and as you can see those monuments are not little, they draw attention. There are huge medians on Monument Ave... if people want to gather and hold signs, they can do so all day long and a 1/2 mile down the road is Monroe Park in the heart of the campus. So if anyone wanted exposure it's readily available. Whomever did it simply wants to stir up trouble.... same as Bree. Trouble and personal satisfaction.
Averageman
06-27-15, 19:08
I am not suggesting, nor would I condone such an act, but...
If you can desecrate a monument to Confederate dead, what stops someone from the other side from finding Martin Luther Kings monument and doing a little graffiti?
Not saying it is right or needed but am am saying the reaction would be very dramatic and at the Justice Department level.
We really don't want to play this game.
Digital_Damage
06-27-15, 20:13
I am not suggesting, nor would I condone such an act, but...
If you can desecrate a monument to Confederate dead, what stops someone from the other side from finding Martin Luther Kings monument and doing a little graffiti?
Not saying it is right or needed but am am saying the reaction would be very dramatic and at the Justice Department level.
We really don't want to play this game.
Would be an amazingly stupid thing to do, it would remove all doubt that the flag has a racist element to it.
Averageman
06-27-15, 20:37
As stated earlier I do not want to see it happen, but I do expect it to now.
Man, I hope you are wrong about Bree. I hope she is scorned as an outsider that disrupted the peaceful and abiding operation of SC government with it's citizens and punished to the fullest extent of the law.
Charged with a misdemeanor and now a CIVIL RIGHT HERO with street cred. Both are already out on bond. Every person who voted for Obama out of white guilt will buy her documentary that she makes regarding this important CIVIL RIGHTS incident.
http://cdn.necolebitchie.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Bree-Newsome.jpg
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/27/politics/south-carolina-confederate-flag/
http://io9.com/watch-a-film-by-bree-newsome-the-hero-who-took-down-th-1714438388
As stated earlier I do not want to see it happen, but I do expect it to now.
Expect Tawana Brawley "false flag" incidents.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-27-15, 22:49
So when is the press going to attack the people who are burning the US flag along with the Confederate flag?
http://www.demotix.com/photo/7932442/confederate-and-us-flags-burned-rally-against-racism-denver?popup=1
All I know is that there probably was a big rush on confederate flags as people hoarded them and ironically bought them to burn.
JBecker 72
06-27-15, 22:52
The Jefferson Davis monument in VA was also vandalized.
http://www.13newsnow.com/story/news/local/virginia/2015/06/25/jefferson-davis-statue-in-richmond-vandalized/29263633/
Moose-Knuckle
06-28-15, 00:03
Typical leftists, "Freedom of Speech only applies to us and our causes".
Charged with a misdemeanor and now a CIVIL RIGHT HERO with street cred. Both are already out on bond.
Fair enough. They are innocent until proven guilty.
She is a professional and needs to be punished as such if found guilty. I suppose photographic evidence may be questionable and subject to tampering. She is no Rosa Parks nor anything remotely approaching.
I rode on buses as a child with blacks that had to sit in the back of the bus. I read signs on water fountains that said whites only. I asked my mother why couldn't I sit in the back of the bus. I saw the looks on their faces. I balked at drinking from a fountain that blacks couldn't drink from because certainly something must be wrong with the water.
I sat in the school classroom with the first black person that entered our school system. Sat right next to him. I still know his name. We got along just fine and never had a single issue.
This is not rocket science. Small children get it. The reality of the transition is loooooooooooooooog gone except for anyone that wants to try to relive or rewrite history.
Miss rent-a-dread 'Bree' is a complete fake. She may be incredibly talented as a musician. She is no Rasta. She is no slave. She is no model citizen. She is certainly no Rosa Parks although in this day and age I might expect someone to attempt to steal that earned dignity as well.
I do appreciate her willingness to make a name or rather carve out a place for herself in the creative community as her musical / performance arts profession is a bit of a dog eat dog world. One must be original, keep up with the Kardashians, and impress Jay Z...... seriously... that is no easy feat and that is the world she lives in via her profession outside of political activism.
However, as smart and creative as she is, she chose to commit a crime, outside her "house" as Obama says (NC resident in SC), and at a time when everyone knew the issue was already being resolved.
I don't know what the hell whitebread was thinking.. what was he doing? Village People or something? Got his hat and his neon vest.... nice. The gay pride parade was in London dude. I hope he enjoys his equal sentence.
The_War_Wagon
06-28-15, 05:43
She's a few fries short of a happy meal. Hopefully, William S. Hall Psychiatric Hospital was HER next stop... :blink:
I bet Prius steering wheels are soaking wet from the tears of middle aged white liberal women over this monumental, triumphant time in history.
I believe all this shit (racism, Bruce the tranny Jenner, confederate flag, Kardashians, gay marriage) are just distractions to keep the sheep focused on trivial issues while Obola and his minions finish destroying the country. I'm tempted to paint my truck like the General Lee just to piss off the progressives.
Averageman
06-28-15, 10:20
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0
“There’s an acceptance now of the idea that the threat from jihadi terrorism in the United States has been overblown,” Dr. Horgan said. “And there’s a belief that the threat of right-wing, antigovernment violence has been underestimated.”
Counting terrorism cases is a subjective enterprise, relying on shifting definitions and judgment calls.
You don't honestly think with crap like this being published, nothing is going to happen?
MountainRaven
06-28-15, 10:36
If it makes you guys feel any better, four black churches were torched last week.
(Investigation has found arson to be the cause in three of the fires, the fourth is still under investigation.)
Averageman
06-28-15, 10:43
If it makes you guys feel any better, four black churches were torched last week.
(Investigation has found arson to be the cause in three of the fires, the fourth is still under investigation.)
No, I hate it, really the thing we don't need is further division.
I'm afraid that's part of the recipe though.
If it makes you guys feel any better, four black churches were torched last week.
(Investigation has found arson to be the cause in three of the fires, the fourth is still under investigation.)
I would expect a lot more of this in the future. The extremists on both sides were able to hold it together up until now will be acting out more regularly.
Averageman
06-28-15, 10:55
I would expect a lot more of this in the future. The extremists on both sides were able to hold it together up until now will be acting out more regularly.
This sort of infighting and "tit for tat" fuels and agenda. If you can't see where it is going, look a bit closer.
When your outrage against a symbols equals the right to deface public property the push back against actions like these breed violence. Violence Breeds civil unrest and furthers the feelings of racial division and hate.
Any of the folks who might have been convinced they need to vote to get back to the more conservative values are pretty much back in the progressive fold after seeing their churches burn.
This sort of behavior will lead to further violence.
If it makes you guys feel any better, four black churches were torched last week.
(Investigation has found arson to be the cause in three of the fires, the fourth is still under investigation.)
Why would that make any of us feel better? Wonder how many were Reichstag fires?
Typical leftists, "Freedom of Speech only applies to us and our causes".
This is the definition of irony.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0
“There’s an acceptance now of the idea that the threat from jihadi terrorism in the United States has been overblown,” Dr. Horgan said. “And there’s a belief that the threat of right-wing, antigovernment violence has been underestimated.”
Counting terrorism cases is a subjective enterprise, relying on shifting definitions and judgment calls.
You don't honestly think with crap like this being published, nothing is going to happen?
While I don't agree with their point specifically, the quoted portion isn't untrue. Post-9/11, racist and extreme right-wing fueled attacks have killed more in the US than terrorism, albeit ones and twos instead of mass attacks. Though the same could be said about far left groups.
What's true is that you can't really do much to prevent these sorts of violence while preserving freedom, which we've all known for a while, and is why it's remained "understated". What I don't understand is how anyone thinks the same can't be true about Islamic extremism. Maybe it's just that much easier to take away freedom from others than allow yourself to face the same treatment, regardless of the results.
Could someone amend the spelling in the thread title perhaps?
Averageman
06-29-15, 05:58
Why would that make any of us feel better? Wonder how many were Reichstag fires?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3142817/String-suspected-arson-attacks-SIX-black-churches-stretching-Georgia-Ohio-burned-single-week.html
SIX black churches stretching from Georgia to Ohio are burned down in seven days: Fears of tide of 'racist' violence as three are confirmed as arson
A string of black churches have been ravaged by fire in the past week, in what could potentially be a string of racially-motivated arson attacks.
Places of worship in Tennessee, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Ohio were ravaged by flames this week.
Authorities have confirmed that three of the attacks were arson, while investigations are still underway for the remaining two.
The attacks come as national attention centers on racial divisions in the wake of the church massacre in Charleston, South Carolina, where nine people were gunned down by Dylann Roof.
I don't know if anyone will look at the Reichstag angle or not. I do feel whomever is doing it is only stirring the pot further and pushing for a fight.
This isn't going to end well for anyone.
Why would that make any of us feel better? Wonder how many were Reichstag fires?
I don't know if anyone will look at the Reichstag angle or not. I do feel whomever is doing it is only stirring the pot further and pushing for a fight.
This isn't going to end well for anyone.
Also wonder how long till some sort of "Mississippi Burning" situation where a group of "progressive reformers" are murdered by a "known right wing" group? Thus, prompting more massive .gov application of power at a local law enforcement level.
I find it interesting how this summer seems to be following the same pattern as the "Freedom Summer" right before the election year of 1964. The year of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and implementation of the Dems "Great Society" programs - which in my opinion have been a horrible failure for the populace, but the foundation upon which the Dems have built their power structure.
Mississippi Burning - When a group of civil rights workers goes missing in a small Mississippi town, FBI agents Alan Ward (Willem Dafoe) and Rupert Anderson (Gene Hackman) are sent in to investigate. Local authorities refuse to cooperate with them, and the African American community is afraid to, precipitating a clash between the two agents over strategy. As the situation becomes more volatile, the direct approach is abandoned in favor of more aggressive, hard-line tactics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Summer
Freedom Summer (also known as the Mississippi Summer Project) was a campaign in the United States launched in June 1964 to attempt to register as many African-American voters as possible in Mississippi, which had historically excluded most blacks from voting.
Over the course of the ten-week project:[9]
1,062 people were arrested (out-of-state volunteers and locals)
80 Freedom Summer workers were beaten
37 churches were bombed or burned
30 Black homes or businesses were bombed or burned
4 civil rights workers were killed (one in a head-on collision)
4 people were critically wounded
At least 3 Mississippi blacks were murdered because of their support for the Civil Rights Movement
Averageman
06-29-15, 08:18
While I don't agree with their point specifically, the quoted portion isn't untrue. Post-9/11, racist and extreme right-wing fueled attacks have killed more in the US than terrorism, albeit ones and twos instead of mass attacks. Though the same could be said about far left groups.
What's true is that you can't really do much to prevent these sorts of violence while preserving freedom, which we've all known for a while, and is why it's remained "understated". What I don't understand is how anyone thinks the same can't be true about Islamic extremism. Maybe it's just that much easier to take away freedom from others than allow yourself to face the same treatment, regardless of the results.
Well I am kind of wondering.
If you can call Maj Hassan's Fort Hood shooting workplace violence instead of terror, just how were these things investigated and categorized?
There's a lot of hate out there and some folks I believe are not beyond using it to their advantage. The agenda on both sides feeds on this crap and I have no doubt that there will be a point made of it.
I am sitting here where the deep South meets the West and for the most part everybody seems to get along. I would like to think it will continue, but I'm beginning to have my doubts.
Post-9/11, racist and extreme right-wing fueled attacks have killed more in the US than terrorism, albeit ones and twos instead of mass attacks.
I'd like to see data supporting this, otherwise calling BS.
Post-9/11, racist and extreme right-wing fueled attacks have killed more in the US than terrorism, albeit ones and twos instead of mass attacks. Though the same could be said about far left groups.
I'd like to see data supporting this, otherwise calling BS.
Agreed.
Could someone amend the spelling in the thread title perhaps?
You don't know how many times I looked at that and thought... something doesn't look right.... oops, I mean correct.
For the record... www.atavist.com ( you knew there had to be one ) did NOT take down the flag and my apology to them for the typo / confusion.
I'm counting about 71 dead and 319 injured up through Sept 2014 for the Muslims.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AmericanAttacks.htm
Can't seem to find an overall death toll or cause but it must be near a 1/2 Mil or so. It would be hard to believe that there is not a large percentage of racists related deaths there. Even if only 1% were racists that's 5,000 or 71X the number of Muslim terror deaths.... and for further perspective, at least one site indicates that Police alone have caused 5,000 deaths since 911.
So odds are SOW_0331 is most like correct. I wouldn't want to bet against it with those numbers anyway. Percentage wise it's a tiny number. Hell we had a black preacher here spray paint racist remarks all over his own home and got it on the news. Then he got caught. So it's not like racism isn't on people's minds from all sorts of directions and for an entire nation there must be more than 71 deaths from it since 911 ... that's 14 years!
MountainRaven
06-29-15, 10:44
Why would that make any of us feel better? Wonder how many were Reichstag fires?
First, it was sarcasm. Since everybody seems to be so worked up about one person taking down one spangly blanket, but nobody seems to have any interest in mentioning that private property has been intentionally destroyed. Not to mention the nine lives that were taken.
I'm sure we're still waiting for the Germans to charge the communist responsible for blowing up the swastika on the Reichstag, too.
Second, I doubt it. If it were, we'd be seeing it getting played all over the mainstream media and if it weren't for my contacts on the liberal side of the house, I never would have even heard of it. Further, the police would have "caught" (or killed) the people "responsible" almost immediately and their connections to majority white religions, the NRA, Stormfront, Arfcom/m4c/&c., would be played up a lot.
Averageman
06-29-15, 10:59
First, it was sarcasm. Since everybody seems to be so worked up about one person taking down one spangly blanket, but nobody seems to have any interest in mentioning that private property has been intentionally destroyed. Not to mention the nine lives that were taken.
I'm sure we're still waiting for the Germans to charge the communist responsible for blowing up the swastika on the Reichstag, too.
Second, I doubt it. If it were, we'd be seeing it getting played all over the mainstream media and if it weren't for my contacts on the liberal side of the house, I never would have even heard of it. Further, the police would have "caught" (or killed) the people "responsible" almost immediately and their connections to majority white religions, the NRA, Stormfront, Arfcom/m4c/&c., would be played up a lot.
I'm pretty upset about the lives being lost and I'm concerned that the way it is being played more lives will be lost.
Now we're asking for list of names of organizations that have been deemed "Hate Groups", well just who decided what a hate group is and how was that determined? Is exercising free speech enough to make you a member? What do you do with that list once you have it? Do you publish it?
This rhetoric isn't doing anything to make issues better and I feel it only fans the flames of the hate that is out there already.
I don't think the people out there pushing this hatred forward will be happy until many more folks are hurt or dead.
brickboy240
06-29-15, 11:46
Anyone else think that when Obama is gone...this race war nonsense will slow down quite a bit?
I tend to think so.
Anyone else think that when Obama is gone...this race war nonsense will slow down quite a bit?
I tend to think so.
Depends on who takes the helm. And even the. Not so much really.
Race war is good for those in power seeking to pit brother against brother so they don't have time to unite against the power structure that is ****ing them both.
We are witnessing the end of our republic and the transition into social engineered chaos and whatever power structure takes over after the fire burns most of the country down- likely will be no better than what we have now and is probable to be much, much worse.
I'm counting about 71 dead and 319 injured up through Sept 2014 for the Muslims.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AmericanAttacks.htm
Can't seem to find an overall death toll or cause but it must be near a 1/2 Mil or so. It would be hard to believe that there is not a large percentage of racists related deaths there. Even if only 1% were racists that's 5,000 or 71X the number of Muslim terror deaths.... and for further perspective, at least one site indicates that Police alone have caused 5,000 deaths since 911.
So odds are SOW_0331 is most like correct. I wouldn't want to bet against it with those numbers anyway. Percentage wise it's a tiny number. Hell we had a black preacher here spray paint racist remarks all over his own home and got it on the news. Then he got caught. So it's not like racism isn't on people's minds from all sorts of directions and for an entire nation there must be more than 71 deaths from it since 911 ... that's 14 years!
This. It would take an anual average of six (6) murders based on the individual harboring "far right" motives. This isn't an exact science, obviously. Some murders will go unsolved or the guilty never caught, some are never discovered to be murders. So the true numbers of those killed under such a banner really can't be known.
However with this assclown Root killing 9, we're already at 150% of the amount of deaths caused by islamic terrorism on US soil, and speaking for 2015 this year specifically, its a 9:0 rate. So is it as much or more of a threat to the safety and security of the American people as Muslim Extremism, yet we devote almost none of the resources to "prevention" as we do Islamic radicals.
To be clear, I'm not suggesting or supporting that any precautionary measures be taken that aren't already. You're talking about defeating a thought. It cannot be done. Tomorrow any of my neighbors could put down his paperback copy of The Turner Diaries and go commit some hate crimes and theres nothing I can do about it today. Because I cannot act on predictions of what someone may be thinking. So while it is a known threat, it is a necessary risk for freedom.
I would only hope some people can see the lesson here. Its not fun being labeled a terrorist threat because you are the same sex, race, religion, and similar political affiliations as those who commit despicable acts against innocent people. As I quoted from MooseVictim, it's ironic. But a good lesson that we need to focus on the depth of a threat and not the surface observations.
First, it was sarcasm. Since everybody seems to be so worked up about one person taking down one spangly blanket, but nobody seems to have any interest in mentioning that private property has been intentionally destroyed. Not to mention the nine lives that were taken.
I'm sure we're still waiting for the Germans to charge the communist responsible for blowing up the swastika on the Reichstag, too.
Second, I doubt it. If it were, we'd be seeing it getting played all over the mainstream media and if it weren't for my contacts on the liberal side of the house, I never would have even heard of it. Further, the police would have "caught" (or killed) the people "responsible" almost immediately and their connections to majority white religions, the NRA, Stormfront, Arfcom/m4c/&c., would be played up a lot.
Missed the sarcasm.
As for "reichstag fire" I think you missed the reference. I was wondering how many of these fires were "Tawana Brawley" incidents.
MountainRaven
06-29-15, 22:25
Missed the sarcasm.
As for "reichstag fire" I think you missed the reference. I was wondering how many of these fires were "Tawana Brawley" incidents.
I understood the reference. I choose to use it to segue into something else.
I'm not saying that it should be ruled out - but we probably shouldn't be too eager to embrace it, either.
I understood the reference. I choose to use it to segue into something else.
I'm not saying that it should be ruled out - but we probably shouldn't be too eager to embrace it, either.
Gotcha, I would have been surprised if you didn't get the reference as intended.
And I'm not saying that is what I think that is definitely what happened, just saying it wouldn't surprise me at all.
Can't seem to find an overall death toll or cause but it must be near a 1/2 Mil or so. It would be hard to believe that there is not a large percentage of racists related deaths there. Even if only 1% were racists that's 5,000 or 71X the number of Muslim terror deaths.... and for further perspective, at least one site indicates that Police alone have caused 5,000 deaths since 911.
Where are you getting this?
Voodoochild
06-30-15, 07:32
Everyone needs to take a deep breath and start acting like adults. If you are not capable of doing that please remove yourself from this thread.
Where are you getting this?
Just google / bing deaths since 911 or yearly death rate. There will be several links. I think one estimated 35K a year or so. One had 320K or 360K as of 2013. If you think it's incorrect, please correct. But the numbers I saw make the ratio tiny so even if I have over estimated by 4X or 5X the numbers are still way out of proportion. Chicago alone this year more than doubled all the terror deaths since 911. That's 3X in 6 months for one city vs. 14 years for the whole country. http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/homicides
Ok, I just found some other links that several suggest what is roughly 5 per 100,000 from 2001 to 2015. I we are estimated at 320,000,000 people. So instead of 1/2Mil it's near a 1/4Mil but the numbers are still tiny in comparison. IOW, we have a lot of people running around killing each other and it's not jihad terror related.
I think I see part of the problem. It is poor choice of labeling.
Post-9/11, racist and extreme right-wing fueled attacks have killed more in the US than terrorism, albeit ones and twos instead of mass attacks. Though the same could be said about far left groups.
This idiot that shot nine people in a church isn't any more "right wing" than the fool that set off the bomb in Oklahoma.
The traditional European "right and left" is a split between communism and national socialism. I am certain that is not what you meant. It seems to me your word choice reveals something about an over-simplification of ideology. When you make a statement and couple "racist" with "right wing" and drive a wedge between "us and them".... you are seeming to malign an ideology because you disagree with it. Not because Roof was actually "right wing", but because using that language validates some kind of world view you hold.
So what does a statement like "right wing" mean in your sentence? Conservative? Religious? Whatever is the opposite of "liberal"? The opposite of progressive?
Making a strong statement with such flippant word use isn't helpful.
Averageman
06-30-15, 11:28
I think I see part of the problem. It is poor choice of labeling.
This idiot that shot nine people in a church isn't any more "right wing" than the fool that set off the bomb in Oklahoma.
The traditional European "right and left" is a split between communism and national socialism. I am certain that is not what you meant. It seems to me your word choice reveals something about an over-simplification of ideology. When you make a statement and couple "racist" with "right wing" and drive a wedge between "us and them".... you are seeming to malign an ideology because you disagree with it. Not because Roof was actually "right wing", but because using that language validates some kind of world view you hold.
So what does a statement like "right wing" mean in your sentence? Conservative? Religious? Whatever is the opposite of "liberal"? The opposite of progressive?
Making a strong statement with such flippant word use isn't helpful.
I would like to see the numbers and how they determined that someone or an incident was part of a "Right Wing" or a "Racist" organization.
If you throw numbers out there they have no meaning unless they can be documented as a part of a specific hate group, organization or specific incident of hate. I would also really like to know who controls the meanings of the definitions of those terms.
I'm sure that someone investigated these crimes, I'm just as sure if the KKK, Skinheads or Nazi party was out there committing murders at that kind of rate MSNBC would be screaming to high heaven.
I'm thinking that the stats might be a little skewed here and leaning toward favoring an agenda the Justice Department has been riding for a little over 6 or so years,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz6bVde-rpQ
Digital_Damage
06-30-15, 20:14
LULs boy did this get off track.
What's with all the handwringing?
Someone made a statement (which I still don't get) and we're asking for some clarification / validation.
Is the point that some hundreds of thousands of murders happened since since 911 and "I guess some significant portion of them must be by RACISTS" just, uh because?
I'm just trying to understand what's being said here. We certainly don't need bogus assumptions fueling typical leftist overreaction.
Moose-Knuckle
07-01-15, 16:38
I'd like to see data supporting this, otherwise calling BS.
Agreed.
The motion is carried, complete bovine feces.
Moose-Knuckle
07-01-15, 16:41
This idiot that shot nine people in a church isn't any more "right wing" than the fool that set off the bomb in Oklahoma.
The traditional European "right and left" is a split between communism and national socialism. I am certain that is not what you meant. It seems to me your word choice reveals something about an over-simplification of ideology. When you make a statement and couple "racist" with "right wing" and drive a wedge between "us and them".... you are seeming to malign an ideology because you disagree with it. Not because Roof was actually "right wing", but because using that language validates some kind of world view you hold.
So what does a statement like "right wing" mean in your sentence? Conservative? Religious? Whatever is the opposite of "liberal"? The opposite of progressive?
Making a strong statement with such flippant word use isn't helpful.
It's actually quit divisive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz6bVde-rpQ
First, the video title may be misleading - but worth the watch.
Belloc - good video. The man speaks a LOT of truth. Can't say I agree with everything, but he makes any a lot of great points. It was worth the time - thanks.
Could someone fix Confederate in the title too?
It's actually quit divisive.
If you go the FBI site you can research hate crimes. They are in the thousands per year. However they only have data collected from say 2000 or so agencies. So perhaps let's say for a year you have 7,000 crimes and 7 murders. Over 14 years... So just say rounded you get 100,000 hate crimes and 100 murders from a couple thousand agencies. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at America and see we have a racial divide with a crime component that outweighs jihad oriented terrorist crime on our soil.
I don't understand what you guys are getting at, surely you don't think jihad terrorism outweighs racial tensions in the USA? Wasn't that the point being made?
As to the Root nutcase, he needn't belong to the KKK to be fueled by ultra right wing ideals. I mean all he had to do was read a bunch a trash on the Internet, watch the news a while, take some drugs, and bang... he wants to go kill blacks.... that's racist. Now is a 'right winger' meaning he didn't know which Republican candidate to vote for, of course not... but his actions matched those of ideals white supremacist hold to.
Not saying turn a blind eye to radical terrorism and it's potential here, but damn, we really do have a lot of racial hate going on.
Anyway... the FBI is tracking the stats but they are far from nationally complete, but the numbers are big.
Averageman
07-01-15, 18:38
If you go the FBI site you can research hate crimes. They are in the thousands per year. However they only have data collected from say 2000 or so agencies. So perhaps let's say for a year you have 7,000 crimes and 7 murders. Over 14 years... So just say rounded you get 100,000 hate crimes and 100 murders from a couple thousand agencies. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at America and see we have a racial divide with a crime component that outweighs jihad oriented terrorist crime on our soil.
I don't understand what you guys are getting at, surely you don't think jihad terrorism outweighs racial tensions in the USA? Wasn't that the point being made?
As to the Root nutcase, he needn't belong to the KKK to be fueled by ultra right wing ideals. I mean all he had to do was read a bunch a trash on the Internet, watch the news a while, take some drugs, and bang... he wants to go kill blacks.... that's racist. Now is a 'right winger' meaning he didn't know which Republican candidate to vote for, of course not... but his actions matched those of ideals white supremacist hold to.
Not saying turn a blind eye to radical terrorism and it's potential here, but damn, we really do have a lot of racial hate going on.
Anyway... the FBI is tracking the stats but they are far from nationally complete, but the numbers are big.
I think you may be on to something, but I have to ask, What do you think the Justice Department has been doing over the last six years with crime statistics?
I would hazard to guess that nearly ever murder has a bit of "hate" in it.
I could site a number of well known cases in which a white Cop killed a black suspect. Does that constitute a hate crime?
How did Eric Holder feel about that? How did he influence the numbers?
Research that a bit, let us know about FBI stats and the Justice Department and please get back to us.
Just a hint, the books have been cooked, there are no black on white hate crimes.
Just a hint, the books have been cooked, there are no black on white hate crimes.
I believe the participants in the thread are requesting support for one's comments, else they belong in a pasture. I've done the best I could for my take on SOW_0331 and the jihad vs home grown crime. You will need to provide your own data on that one.
Could someone fix Confederate in the title too?
There are times in life when you wish you had an excuse. The older I get, I find they occur far more frequently.... If I screw this up again, I'm just going to ask that you write out the title so I can cut and paste it.
MountainRaven
07-01-15, 20:15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz6bVde-rpQ
Good video.
Wish the guy would stay on point a bit more, though. I imagine that a lot of people who should hear this will turn off their brains and stop listening when he wanders off on tangents.
I believe the participants in the thread are requesting support for one's comments, else they belong in a pasture. I've done the best I could for my take on SOW_0331 and the jihad vs home grown crime. You will need to provide your own data on that one.
Judging by your previous post, your data assumes that all hate crimes are committed by whites (which would make sense as they are the largest ethnic group). In fact, the majority of them are committed by blacks and hispanics. There are numerous reports confirming this, here's one (http://edunbar.bol.ucla.edu/papers/assessmentroleofbiasintentrisk.pdf). This information is difficult to assess, mainly due to the fact that the National Crime Victimization Survey and Uniform Crime Reports classify Hispanics as "white" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Classification_of_Hispanics).
This doesn't take into account the likely underreporting and of hate crimes committed by minorities. In the instances of the Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom murders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom), the Wichita Massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wichita_Massacre), and so far with the 2015 Washington, D.C., mass murder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Washington,_D.C.,_mass_murder#Suspect) the suspects have not been or were not charged with hate crimes.
There is a narrative being deliberately constructed with the end goal to misinform and influence individuals such as yourself who haven't been exposed to the whole story. Don't believe the trash that the HARD LEFT MEDIA pushes on you regarding "right wing crime" any more than you would any other biased source. Look at the numbers and learn for yourself.
Judging by your previous post, your data assumes that all hate crimes are committed by whites (which would make sense as they are the largest ethnic group).
No, I believe the FBI data breaks down the various groups. The only thing I am trying to say is this... SOW_0331 basically stated that racist, right wing and left wing are responsible for more issues than jihad terrorist on USA soil. He also used them term 'fueled'.
IMO, based on all the crime I see that seems about right. Remember that fueling a crime does not necessarily require one to be a member of a group. Especially with these kids from broken families, and heavy influence of gangs and drugs and all manner. IOW, these days one need not learn the secret handshake and attend the meeting to be fueled into action.
Take this scenario....
A kid on drugs from a broken home....
He watches say the Ferguson riots --- most of the coverage will be left wing
He then goes online and reads some ultra right wing commentary
So now he is basically a nothing. he's not a member of either extreme and it doesn't matter what color his skin is.
Toss in the drugs and a generally confused person and he takes a side.
It's kinda hard to convince me that without those extremes present and the manner they are presented to him that the same final result would occur. Remove the fuel and the fire doesn't start. Now he might still be crazy and just one day kill himself but that ultra left, ultra right fuel cause a different outcome and the resulting crime. So the crime therefore is racist and 'wing' based even though he is also mentally disturbed and not a 'member' of a group.
Moose-Knuckle
07-03-15, 04:39
Not saying turn a blind eye to radical terrorism and it's potential here, but damn, we really do have a lot of racial hate going on.
I agree with you on this, the FBI use to publish their crime demographic data, not so much any more. The last numbers were from '07 and the black on white crime was staggering (especially sexual assaults) but of course those were not "hate crimes".
Black America's Real Problem Isn't White Racism
After researching the FBI numbers for "Suicide of a Superpower," this writer concluded: "An analysis of 'single offender victimization figures' from the FBI for 2007 finds blacks committed 433,934 crimes against whites, eight times the 55,685 whites committed against blacks. Interracial rape is almost exclusively black on white — with 14,000 assaults on white women by African Americans in 2007. Not one case of a white sexual assault on a black female was found in the FBI study."
Though blacks are outnumbered 5-to-1 in the population by whites, they commit eight times as many crimes against whites as the reverse. By those 2007 numbers, a black male was 40 times as likely to assault a white person as the reverse.
If interracial crime is the ugliest manifestation of racism, what does this tell us about where racism really resides — in America?
http://news.yahoo.com/black-americas-real-problem-isnt-white-racism-070000529.html
Well, well, well. Who here is surprised by this story? They seem to taking the advice of various LGBT activists who fake all sort of "hate crimes".
http://www.westernjournalism.com/black-church-scared-after-racist-signs-show-up-outside-theres-just-one-problem/
Racist Signs Show Up Outside Black Church, But Who Put Them There Is The REAL Story
Weeks after a mass shooting left nine black parishioners dead in South Carolina, members of New Covenant Church in Colorado Springs, Colo., were understandably concerned when racist, intimidating messages were posted to a tree near the church’s entrance.
“Black men be aware,” one sign stated, “you are the target.”
The church’s predominantly black congregation opted to barricade itself inside during a recent service upon first noticing the threatening notes.
While Joyner said the thought of someone targeting his church left him “speechless,” a subsequent arrest in the case was in itself a surprising development.
Suspect Vincent Broughton, police believe, is the man responsible for this attack. Notably, the 44-year-old facing charges related to a “bias-motivated crime” is black. He reportedly confessed to the crime, though there is no indication he offered a motive.
One recent example of this trend involved a gay man found to have inflicted his own wounds before claiming he was the victim of a hate crime.
http://www.westernjournalism.com/police-discover-the-chilling-truth-behind-hate-crime-its-not-what-you-think/
Police Discover The CHILLING Truth Behind Hate Crime…It’s Not What You Think
Wounds a Utah man claimed were the result of hate crimes committed against him in April because of his homosexuality have been found to be self-inflicted, police said Tuesday.
Rick Jones, 22, a cook at his family’s restaurant in the rural community of Delta in the southern part of the state, claimed he was hit over the head one night in late April while alone. He also asserted he was issued a death threat and that an anti-gay slur was carved into his arm while he was unconscious, KSL reported.
Another monument in Richmond has been defaced. This time they tagged it though. RBGz ... I had to look that up... never heard of it.... these guys are quite the teachers. Apparently near Mineola NY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkTHHFs0NoU
Moose-Knuckle
07-03-15, 23:56
Someone in another thread mentioned black churches being torched . . .
Well one of them is being attributed to lighting strikes, after BATFE/FBI arson investigators could find no accelerant. Others are still being investigated.
Damned racist lighting, outlaw it I say!!!
Lightning strike likely cause of church fire; Justice Department continues probe across five states
http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150702/PC16/150709786/1177/sled-lightning-strike-likely-cause-of-church-fire-justice-department-continues-probe-across-five-states
There are times in life when you wish you had an excuse. The older I get, I find they occur far more frequently.... If I screw this up again, I'm just going to ask that you write out the title so I can cut and paste it.
Haha, fair enough. It's just one of those things I pick up quick.
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w522/mtjh45/dukes-of-hazard_l_zpsqzadrv8f.jpg
Racing Through History
"The return of the Confederacy was averted in the summer of 2015 when major retailers frantically scoured through their vast offerings to purge any images of a car from the Dukes of Hazzard. If not for their quick thinking, armies of men in gray might have come marching down the streets of New York and San Francisco to stop off for an Iced Mocha Frappucino ™ at a local Starbucks before restoring slavery."
http://sultanknish.blogspot.co.at/2015/07/racing-through-history.html
The feminism of America has succeeded....
http://www.pnj.com/story/sports/2015/07/02/watson-announces-decision-paint-general-lee/29649447/
PGA Golfer Bubba Watson to Paint Over Confederate Flag
Two-time Masters champion Bubba Watson is stripping the General Lee of its Confederate flag.
The Milton High alum and Dukes of Hazzard fan made the announcement via Twitter on Thursday, writing that "All men ARE created equal, I believe that so I will be painting the American flag over the roof of the General Lee #USA."
Watson became the proud owner of the General Lee 01 in 2012 after spending $110,000 at auction to win the iconic orange 1969 Dodge Charger used by the Duke boys in the popular 80s TV show "Dukes of Hazzard."
Oh this should be interesting. I hope it ends like the "Burn American Flags" events with them getting chased out of town.
Notice its tied to the Ferguson crowd...
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/07/leftists-plan-million-person-march-in-columbia-sc-on-4th-of-july-against-racist-america/
Leftists Plan MILLION PERSON MARCH in Columbia, SC on 4th of July Against Racist America
It says that the Confederate flag coming down “is just a small yet important beginning” and calls for a march on the Capitol for “every American of good conscience.”
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/million-person-march-sc-575x650.jpg
So what's going to happen when someone fires up a kickstarter page to fund the purchase of a piece of land in SC to build a monument and raise the flag back.
This was back in 2014 here in VA.... http://wtvr.com/2014/06/02/virginia-flaggers-erect-second-confederate-flag/
They can remove the flag from government facilities and even remove it from --historic battlefields-- but they won;t be happy until someone's personal freedoms are infringed upon. The historic battlefield deal is the most ironic of all. There are places where you can't even changes the windows on a historic house but a historic preservation of a battlefield you have to remove the remembrance of one of the sides in the battle. That is just absolutely insane. That's like going to the slave museum and removing any reference to slaves.
Outlander Systems
07-04-15, 10:53
http://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Hoap.jpg
Welcome...the future is now!
Whiskey_Bravo
07-04-15, 11:23
So what's going to happen when someone fires up a kickstarter page to fund the purchase of a piece of land in SC to build a monument and raise the flag back.
This....Found this earlier. Sons of Confederate Veterans purchased a private piece of land for a monument and flag and some asshat cut the entire flag pole down.
http://www.scv-waco.org/images/photo%201.JPG http://www.scv-waco.org/images/photo%204.JPG
Digital_Damage
07-04-15, 12:02
This....Found this earlier. Sons of Confederate Veterans purchased a private piece of land for a monument and flag and some asshat cut the entire flag pole down.
http://www.scv-waco.org/images/photo%201.JPG http://www.scv-waco.org/images/photo%204.JPG
I'm all for the flag being removed from public places.
This is private land, do not agree with this one bit.
Set up a game camera and make sure the pole is worth 10k next time. Make it a class 4.
Moose-Knuckle
07-05-15, 00:20
Welcome...the future is now!
:lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5wHRryA2aw
Eh.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/07/south-carolina-millionpersonmarch-a-bust-only-a-few-dozen-turn-out-for-july-4th-race-rally/
South Carolina #MillionPersonMarch a Bust – Only Couple Hundred Turn Out for Race Rally
What if you held a Million Person Race March but nobody came?
The rally started at 6 AM and the march was starting at 9 AM Eastern.
But so far there are no photos from the rally.
You know what that means. Nobody showed up.
UPDATE: Here is the only photo available from today’s Million Person March.
Only three people at the Million Person March…
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/million-march-three-.jpg
Yep - long term purpose is to further exert Federal/Totalitarian control. Same as it was in 1861.
http://www.weaselzippers.us/228763-former-dhs-advisor-on-sc-confederate-flag-coming-down-allahu-akbar-its-a-new-day-no-more-states-rights/
Former DHS Advisor On SC Confederate Flag Coming Down: “Allahu Akbar”, It’s A New Day, No More States’ Rights…
Mohamed Elibiary was a member of Obama’s Department of Homeland Security Advisory Council until he was let go last year because his radical views promoting the Muslim Brotherhood became more publicly known.
Let no one mistake what is being said here, and what this controversy is about, as the former advisor spells out the point very simply. It’s not about the flag, but about federal control.
http://www.weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Screen-Shot-2015-07-10-at-10.15.01-AM-550x274.png
http://www.weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Screen-Shot-2015-07-10-at-10.48.13-AM-550x321.png
http://www.weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Screen-Shot-2015-07-10-at-10.49.46-AM-550x245.png
Averageman
07-11-15, 11:54
We live in two different Countries now.
I'm afraid that those of us in the "Fly Over" States are now for the most part holding what was the standard while the rest of America on both coasts rides as fast as they can toward a progressive hell in a handbasket.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-11-15, 13:18
:lol:
Idiocracy was on last night so I DVRd it.
Exactly, and I for one want no part of the sissified loony land of the left. I want my normal America I knew growing up, the anti-American nonsense utopians can keep that garbage to themselves.
We live in two different Countries now.
I'm afraid that those of us in the "Fly Over" States are now for the most part holding what was the standard while the rest of America on both coasts rides as fast as they can toward a progressive hell in a handbasket.
Moose-Knuckle
07-11-15, 22:57
Yep - long term purpose is to further exert Federal/Totalitarian control. Same as it was in 1861.
http://www.weaselzippers.us/228763-former-dhs-advisor-on-sc-confederate-flag-coming-down-allahu-akbar-its-a-new-day-no-more-states-rights/
Former DHS Advisor On SC Confederate Flag Coming Down: “Allahu Akbar”, It’s A New Day, No More States’ Rights…
Mohamed Elibiary was a member of Obama’s Department of Homeland Security Advisory Council until he was let go last year because his radical views promoting the Muslim Brotherhood became more publicly known.
Let no one mistake what is being said here, and what this controversy is about, as the former advisor spells out the point very simply. It’s not about the flag, but about federal control.
And to think we have members here who still think "gun control" is not about disarming We the People but merely idiotic politicians trying to keep the sheepeople safe.
We live in two different Countries now.
I'm afraid that those of us in the "Fly Over" States are now for the most part holding what was the standard while the rest of America on both coasts rides as fast as they can toward a progressive hell in a handbasket.
At least it will be easy to drive both sides into the sea . . .
At least it will be easy to drive both sides into the sea . . .
Heh! I hadn't thought about it like that before - it makes me happy.
MountainRaven
07-12-15, 14:34
Heh! I hadn't thought about it like that before - it makes me happy.
Don't get used to it. Once you realize how much money those of us in the "fly over" states get back on our federal taxes - to the cost of states like Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, and California - you'll wish you hadn't kicked them into the sea.
Every state that gets more than a buck back on this chart is on de facto welfare:
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2014/05/Slide3/966724856.jpg
(Chart shows how many dollars back each state gets back per person for every one dollar they send to the federal government in taxes.)
Averageman
07-12-15, 15:57
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/11/memphis-city-council-votes-to-dig-up-grave-of-confederate-general-sell-his-statue/
On July 7 the Memphis City Council voted unanimously to exhume the body of Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest from its 110 year resting place and move it to another location.
The body of Forrest’s wife will be exhumed as well.
Eurodriver
07-12-15, 16:00
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/11/memphis-city-council-votes-to-dig-up-grave-of-confederate-general-sell-his-statue/
On July 7 the Memphis City Council voted unanimously to exhume the body of Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest from its 110 year resting place and move it to another location.
The body of Forrest’s wife will be exhumed as well.
These people are ****ing insane!!
If they were Jews living in Cairo, they'd just as soon demolish the pyramids as they are monuments to slavery!
Averageman
07-12-15, 16:10
Read a bit about Forrest after the war.
He was controversial because he hired freedmen to rebuild the railroads in the South. Although he has been called the Father of the KKK, there is no little evidence that he was being punished for his service during the war and his works during the reconstruction era when he flourished while others foundered.
There is a bit of evidence out there that he had little or nothing to do with the KKK and fought against his name being connected to it.
These people are ****ing insane!!
If they were Jews living in Cairo, they'd just as soon demolish the pyramids as they are monuments to slavery!
I'm pretty much done with humanity. A comet, Ebola, I don't really care at this point.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/11/memphis-city-council-votes-to-dig-up-grave-of-confederate-general-sell-his-statue/
On July 7 the Memphis City Council voted unanimously to exhume the body of Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest from its 110 year resting place and move it to another location.
The body of Forrest’s wife will be exhumed as well.
Jesus, what is wrong with people. I have no particular love for anything southern or confederate, but let the dead lie. Malcom X was a POS racist, should we dig him up and move him?
Moose-Knuckle
07-12-15, 22:07
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/11/memphis-city-council-votes-to-dig-up-grave-of-confederate-general-sell-his-statue/
On July 7 the Memphis City Council voted unanimously to exhume the body of Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest from its 110 year resting place and move it to another location.
The body of Forrest’s wife will be exhumed as well.
Perhaps they should nail his remains to a cross while they are at it so he can absolve them of their sins.
Moose-Knuckle
07-12-15, 22:08
Jesus, what is wrong with people. I have no particular love for anything southern or confederate, but let the dead lie. Malcom X was a POS racist, should we dig him up and move him?
Well he never liked this place, I'd be all for dumping his bones in Africa so long has his estate picked up the tab.
Well he never liked this place, I'd be all for dumping his bones in Africa so long has his estate picked up the tab.
I think the citizens of Greenburgh, NY should demand the removal of Malcom X, Betty Shabazz and their grandson Malcom Shabazz from Ferncliff Cemetery.
Voodoochild
07-13-15, 09:29
So the newest thing is to take down a Confederate flag and film it then post it to twitter. I see it ending badly for some people like gunshots bad...
So the newest thing is to take down a Confederate flag and film it then post it to twitter. I see it ending badly for some people like gunshots bad...
Yep, that's going to go over real well.
http://www.nbc12.com/story/29530210/bottles-thrown-during-flag-run
for those not familiar with Petersburg, VA ( aside from a major battle area for the Civil War ) ...... The Police Chief was hand selected by Joe Biden to sit on the Obama appointed 'take their guns away' committee. Also of interest is that the Police Chief's son is also a LEO and was arrested at a busy intersection in Henrico County for DUI.
Now watch the video again and you will realize why the Petersburg spokesperson looks like she is about to laugh when she says someone will be brought to justice.
...... and now we've got the guns....
http://wtvr.com/2015/07/14/confederate-flag-waving-dad/
...... and now we've got the guns....
http://wtvr.com/2015/07/14/confederate-flag-waving-dad/
Can you imagine if someone drew on some folks waving the rainbow flag? The MSM & the Obama admin would have an orgy over it.
Averageman
07-14-15, 19:33
I think I'm going to get 1000 little 3X5 inch Rebel Battle flag stickers printed.
You got a "Coexist Bumper Sticker?" you get a Rebel Flag Sticker right beside it.
"Rainbow Flag?" right there next to it is going to be a Rebel Flag!
"Vote Hillary!" bumper Sticker? Here's your Rebel Flag!
I'm hoping that other Liberals will immediately lose their Mother Loving Minds when they see the Rebel Flag and immediately knock out all of the windows in the car, start throwing punches and start a protest march and call the Reverend Al Hotline.
It shouldn't take more than a week to figure out it was "Those other Guy's on their side.", but perhaps they need a reminder that we are here, waiting, patiently.
I love everything about that idea. Kudos to you sir.
MountainRaven
07-14-15, 21:08
Why don't you just buy a can of spray paint and paint dicks on their cars? It would be cheaper.
I mean, if you're going to vandalize other people's property....
I think I'm going to get 1000 little 3X5 inch Rebel Battle flag stickers printed.
You got a "Coexist Bumper Sticker?" you get a Rebel Flag Sticker right beside it.
"Rainbow Flag?" right there next to it is going to be a Rebel Flag!
"Vote Hillary!" bumper Sticker? Here's your Rebel Flag!
I'm hoping that other Liberals will immediately lose their Mother Loving Minds when they see the Rebel Flag and immediately knock out all of the windows in the car, start throwing punches and start a protest march and call the Reverend Al Hotline.
It shouldn't take more than a week to figure out it was "Those other Guy's on their side.", but perhaps they need a reminder that we are here, waiting, patiently.
There was a Confederate store in Laurens SC that was the center of much debate, but that store sold a roll of postage stamp sized Confederate Battle Flags. Like target pasters. Came like 500 to a roll. I remember finding those things all over the State. It seemed like for a while nearly every bathroom in SC had one somewhere.
Moving on, I figured this was coming. For those who do not know, Stone Mountain is in Atlanta and I believe is actually larger than Mt Rushmore.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/14/atlanta-naacp-chapter-calls-for-removal-massive-confederate-sculpture-in-public/
Interesting perspective...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFFLQ9w1f8o
Interesting perspective...
That was refreshing. Good on her for being strong/smart enough to resist progressive indoctrination.
I agree. Well spoken young lady.
Eurodriver
07-16-15, 19:28
http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2015/7/16/florida_confederate_holidays.html
TALLAHASSEE --
Outraged that the birthdays of Confederate leaders Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee continue to be observed as legal holidays in Florida, civil rights activists are calling on lawmakers to repeal them.
I'm just baffled at how long this shit has gone on. This is no longer about a "flag of hate". This is about removing history.
MountainRaven
07-16-15, 19:45
http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2015/7/16/florida_confederate_holidays.html
TALLAHASSEE --
Outraged that the birthdays of Confederate leaders Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee continue to be observed as legal holidays in Florida, civil rights activists are calling on lawmakers to repeal them.
I'm just baffled at how long this shit has gone on. This is no longer about a "flag of hate". This is about removing history.
The only logical objective would be to erase the stain of slavery from the South's past.
Unless you can think of another.
Eurodriver
07-16-15, 20:05
The only logical objective would be to erase the stain of slavery from the South's past.
Unless you can think of another.
How far do we want to take that, and why does one nutcase shooting up a black church mean we should do it?
Averageman
07-16-15, 20:20
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/14/living/feat-stone-mountain-georgia-naacp-confederate-symbol/
Following the removal of the Confederate flag from the South Carolina's State House grounds, the next battleground in the debate over racially charged Civil War symbols may be Stone Mountain, a historic site and tourist attraction northeast of Atlanta, Georgia's largest city.
The mountain is actually a massive rock outcropping, 825 feet high, whose north face contains a bas-relief carving of Confederate heroes Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson.
The Atlanta branch of the NAACP is calling for the immediate removal of all Confederate symbols from Stone Mountain Park, state-owned property that also houses a Civil War museum, hiking trails and other attractions.
http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/the-juice/6633703/outkast-added-georgia-stone-mountain-monument-petition
"By no means do we wish to erase or destroy the current carving, which, regardless of its context, is an impressive and historic work of art. We simply wish to add new carvings, of Atlanta hip-hop duo Outkast, to the mountainside. There's plenty of room," says the tongue-in-cheek petition initiated by a man named Mack Williams.
The petition continues, "I believe that Daddy Fat Sacks and Three Stacks should be carved riding in a Cadillac (as is their wont). This will help the new carving blend nicely with the Confederates who are on horseback."
Ummm yeah, ugh huh, that makes sense.
http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2015/7/16/florida_confederate_holidays.html
TALLAHASSEE --
Outraged that the birthdays of Confederate leaders Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee continue to be observed as legal holidays in Florida, civil rights activists are calling on lawmakers to repeal them.
I'm just baffled at how long this shit has gone on. This is no longer about a "flag of hate". This is about removing history.
deleted
MountainRaven
07-17-15, 00:08
How far do we want to take that, and why does one nutcase shooting up a black church mean we should do it?
Well, unless you are planning on celebrating Benedict Arnold's birthday, it seems that we should have stopped all official flying of Confederate banners and all official celebration of the birthdays of Confederate officers and statesmen on or about the 9th of April, 1865. You know, like how we stopped all official flying of British banners and ceased to officially celebrate the birthdays of monarchs sitting or dead on or about 4 July 1776.
So we're just 150 years behind the times is all. A punk ass racial supremacist shooting up a church doesn't mean we should do it now. We should have done it a long, long time ago.
Well, unless you are planning on celebrating Benedict Arnold's birthday, it seems that we should have stopped all official flying of Confederate banners and all official celebration of the birthdays of Confederate officers and statesmen on or about the 9th of April, 1865. You know, like how we stopped all official flying of British banners and ceased to officially celebrate the birthdays of monarchs sitting or dead on or about 4 July 1776.
So we're just 150 years behind the times is all. A punk ass racial supremacist shooting up a church doesn't mean we should do it now. We should have done it a long, long time ago.
I think there is something to the defiance of the rebel flag. Some pretty horrible things happened in the south during the war that border more on atrocity than warfare. Not that I'm suggesting the CSA were innocent victims of some undeserved holocaust or anything, but some bad things did happen.
I think flying the rebel flag since then has more to do with a defiant symbol directed at the north than it is a flag that says "We hate black people and think slavery was awesome." It's kind of a southern version of "Never Forget." As for celebrating the birthdays of Robert Lee and Jefferson Davis, it's a local cultural thing.
Some people consider MLK a communist and are offended that we have a MLK day. Granted he wasn't on the losing side of a war, as you noted. But unlike the war with England, the CSA states were still part of the United States and they wished to preserve parts of their history and culture. I think some tolerance was observed and accommodations made to smooth over some of the more unfortunate events related to restoration of the union.
The way I see it, if we can have a Malcom X day in Berkeley (of course) and Chicago, we can have a General Lee day in parts of the south.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/14/living/feat-stone-mountain-georgia-naacp-confederate-symbol/
Following the removal of the Confederate flag from the South Carolina's State House grounds, the next battleground in the debate over racially charged Civil War symbols may be Stone Mountain, a historic site and tourist attraction northeast of Atlanta, Georgia's largest city.
The mountain is actually a massive rock outcropping, 825 feet high, whose north face contains a bas-relief carving of Confederate heroes Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson.
The Atlanta branch of the NAACP is calling for the immediate removal of all Confederate symbols from Stone Mountain Park, state-owned property that also houses a Civil War museum, hiking trails and other attractions.
http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/the-juice/6633703/outkast-added-georgia-stone-mountain-monument-petition
"By no means do we wish to erase or destroy the current carving, which, regardless of its context, is an impressive and historic work of art. We simply wish to add new carvings, of Atlanta hip-hop duo Outkast, to the mountainside. There's plenty of room," says the tongue-in-cheek petition initiated by a man named Mack Williams.
The petition continues, "I believe that Daddy Fat Sacks and Three Stacks should be carved riding in a Cadillac (as is their wont). This will help the new carving blend nicely with the Confederates who are on horseback."
Ummm yeah, ugh huh, that makes sense.
LOL Outkast! I guess that will be a secret shout-out to a certain board member here if they incorporate them into the Mountain.
I can see the changes to the laser light shows now.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9N7N9JIZDQ
For those who didn't grow up in the South in the late 80's/early 90's...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgLFKWy04eE
Eurodriver
07-17-15, 07:10
Well, unless you are planning on celebrating Benedict Arnold's birthday, it seems that we should have stopped all official flying of Confederate banners and all official celebration of the birthdays of Confederate officers and statesmen on or about the 9th of April, 1865. You know, like how we stopped all official flying of British banners and ceased to officially celebrate the birthdays of monarchs sitting or dead on or about 4 July 1776.
So we're just 150 years behind the times is all. A punk ass racial supremacist shooting up a church doesn't mean we should do it now. We should have done it a long, long time ago.
You hate it. That's enough reason for me to fly it.
Outlander Systems
07-17-15, 07:17
Well, unless you are planning on celebrating Benedict Arnold's birthday, it seems that we should have stopped all official flying of Confederate banners and all official celebration of the birthdays of Confederate officers and statesmen on or about the 9th of April, 1865. You know, like how we stopped all official flying of British banners and ceased to officially celebrate the birthdays of monarchs sitting or dead on or about 4 July 1776.
So we're just 150 years behind the times is all. A punk ass racial supremacist shooting up a church doesn't mean we should do it now. We should have done it a long, long time ago.
So, what's next big dog? Ban all state flags too?
For the majority of folks I know that still fly the Stars n Bars, it's a southern pride thing.
As for me, American by birth, Southern by the grace of God.
There's a certain awesomeness about the South. I've spent time all over this great country, and, my experience and perspective is as follows:
Every time I go outside Dixie, I thank the good Lord that I get to come back.
Whiskey_Bravo
07-17-15, 09:09
Well, unless you are planning on celebrating Benedict Arnold's birthday, it seems that we should have stopped all official flying of Confederate banners and all official celebration of the birthdays of Confederate officers and statesmen on or about the 9th of April, 1865. You know, like how we stopped all official flying of British banners and ceased to officially celebrate the birthdays of monarchs sitting or dead on or about 4 July 1776.
So we're just 150 years behind the times is all. A punk ass racial supremacist shooting up a church doesn't mean we should do it now. We should have done it a long, long time ago.
You like many others will never get it. No matter how someone tried to explain it to you it just isn't going to work. We people in the South are proud of our southern history and heritage, but at the same time you would be hard pressed to find a more patriotic group of people so your attempts at equating celebrating southern pride and heritage with flying the British flag and celebrating the kings birthday fail.
Here are those pesky southerners hating America by infiltrating the military at a higher rate than the rest of the country
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-military-is-not-representative-of-country-2014-7
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Whiskey_Bravo
07-17-15, 09:25
http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/07/west-point-revokes-confederate-diplomas/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=Duffel%20Blog&utm_content=West%20Point%20Revokes%20Diplomas%20Of%20Confederate%20Graduates
Seems fitting
Outlander Systems
07-17-15, 10:24
http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/07/west-point-revokes-confederate-diplomas/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=Duffel%20Blog&utm_content=West%20Point%20Revokes%20Diplomas%20Of%20Confederate%20Graduates
Seems fitting
We are adrift in an ocean of stupidity, and wussdom.
#WorldOfWimpcraft
Averageman
07-17-15, 10:36
We are adrift in an ocean of stupidity, and wussdom.
#WorldOfWimpcraft
http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/07/west-point-revokes-confederate-diplomas/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=Duffel%20Blog&utm_content=West%20Point%20Revokes%20Diplomas%20Of%20Confederate%20Graduates
Following the decision of the South Carolina government to remove the Confederate flag from a state memorial, and the subsequent, nation-wide uproar over all things Confederate, West Point has announced that it will posthumously revoke the diplomas of all cadets who graduated from the Academy and fought for the South during the Civil War.
For a place that prides themselves in producing Engineers. their numbers suck. Twenty?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Confederate_States_Army_officers_educated_at_the_United_States_Military_Academy
Crow Hunter
07-17-15, 13:04
http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/07/west-point-revokes-confederate-diplomas/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=Duffel%20Blog&utm_content=West%20Point%20Revokes%20Diplomas%20Of%20Confederate%20Graduates
Following the decision of the South Carolina government to remove the Confederate flag from a state memorial, and the subsequent, nation-wide uproar over all things Confederate, West Point has announced that it will posthumously revoke the diplomas of all cadets who graduated from the Academy and fought for the South during the Civil War.
For a place that prides themselves in producing Engineers. their numbers suck. Twenty?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Confederate_States_Army_officers_educated_at_the_United_States_Military_Academy
Wow.
If they keep on, the State run propaganda machine will eventually have the CSA having invaded us from an alternate dimension (Dixie-1).
:o
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-15, 14:18
The only logical objective would be to erase the stain of slavery from the South's past.
Oh so only states south of the Mason-Dixon had the "stain of slavery"? There is a reason the likes of Louis Farrakhan has called on "his people" to tear down the American flag and not the Confederate battle flag.
I would caution anyone who wants to go around and cherry pick events to "erase" from the historical record. This is the kind of thing Kim II-sung and his son has done and we all know how that works out.
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-15, 14:24
http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/07/west-point-revokes-confederate-diplomas/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=Duffel%20Blog&utm_content=West%20Point%20Revokes%20Diplomas%20Of%20Confederate%20Graduates
Following the decision of the South Carolina government to remove the Confederate flag from a state memorial, and the subsequent, nation-wide uproar over all things Confederate, West Point has announced that it will posthumously revoke the diplomas of all cadets who graduated from the Academy and fought for the South during the Civil War.
I guess someone needs to exhume Generals Lee, Jackson, et al. and inform them their commissions are null and void. :lol:
What a bunch of ****ing hypocrites. West Point needs to take a look at themselves and atone for their treatment of Henry Ossian Flipper and countless other black cadets.
Some Dead Bodies Are More Equal Than Others
http://takimag.com/article/some_dead_bodies_are_more_equal_than_others_john_derbyshire
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w522/mtjh45/11168911_1658613644372064_8962120364004002690_n_zpswy1k6sfq.jpg
I guess someone needs to exhume Generals Lee, Jackson, et al. and inform them their commissions are null and void. :lol:
What a bunch of ****ing hypocrites. West Point needs to take a look at themselves and atone for their treatment of Henry Ossian Flipper and countless other black cadets.
I'm not sure if you know, Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it sounds as if you don't know that Duffleblog is a satire website.
Here is an example of their hijinks:
http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/07/f-35-bailout/
Digital_Damage
07-17-15, 16:51
I'm not sure if you know, Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it sounds as if you don't know that Duffleblog is a satire website.
Here is an example of their hijinks:
http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/07/f-35-bailout/
does not play into their agenda...
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-15, 17:24
I'm not sure if you know, Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it sounds as if you don't know that Duffleblog is a satire website.
Here is an example of their hijinks:
http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/07/f-35-bailout/
Hah! :lol:
To be honest after the Dukes of Hazzard debacle and some of the other stories it wouldn't surprise me if West Point and VMI did this.
Averageman
07-17-15, 17:29
As I see it "we" have given up many compromises in the name of co existing with fringe groups of people all in the name of "Can't we all just get along?"
Well, apparently we can't because every time a compromise is made and the lines are redrawn we seem to find a whole new group of traumatized people who feign morale outrage about something I would consider really trivial.
So it would seem we redraw the norm every six months all while false narrative like "Hands up don't shoot!" win the day. It doesn't matter that the whole narrative is a lie, it doesn't matter that the whole false sense of indignation rules the airwaves, it only matters that these thing change, right and wrong be damned.
That flag didn't kill anyone, some moron with mental issues who grew up without adult supervision and no guidance did. He used a lot of rather hard street and prescription drugs and was pretty much whacked by the time he had decided to kill those people.
But let's blame the flag, lets blame the gun, lets blame a culture, after all their is no sense in actually blaming the guy who committed the crime, right?
The only logical objective would be to erase the stain of slavery from the South's past.
Unless you can think of another.
So we should get rid of the White House and Capitol building?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?171524-Here-Is-A-Monument-of-Slavery-Oppression-and-Hatred-That-Needs-To-Come-Down
After I get done listening to Phil Collins sing Land of Confusion I am going to pop in a great movie well ahead of it's time, Falling Down. I'll bet a remake of that flick would do real well now days.
MountainRaven
07-18-15, 00:11
I think there is something to the defiance of the rebel flag. Some pretty horrible things happened in the south during the war that border more on atrocity than warfare. Not that I'm suggesting the CSA were innocent victims of some undeserved holocaust or anything, but some bad things did happen.
I think flying the rebel flag since then has more to do with a defiant symbol directed at the north than it is a flag that says "We hate black people and think slavery was awesome." It's kind of a southern version of "Never Forget." As for celebrating the birthdays of Robert Lee and Jefferson Davis, it's a local cultural thing.
Some people consider MLK a communist and are offended that we have a MLK day. Granted he wasn't on the losing side of a war, as you noted. But unlike the war with England, the CSA states were still part of the United States and they wished to preserve parts of their history and culture. I think some tolerance was observed and accommodations made to smooth over some of the more unfortunate events related to restoration of the union.
The way I see it, if we can have a Malcom X day in Berkeley (of course) and Chicago, we can have a General Lee day in parts of the south.
Bad things happen in war. The Confederacy should have thought of that before they seceded. Before they shelled Fort Sumter.
You hate it. That's enough reason for me to fly it.
Where did I say that I hated it?
I don't hate it. Not any more than I hate the Union Jack or King George III. And I don't hate either of those things.
So, what's next big dog? Ban all state flags too?
For the majority of folks I know that still fly the Stars n Bars, it's a southern pride thing.
As for me, American by birth, Southern by the grace of God.
There's a certain awesomeness about the South. I've spent time all over this great country, and, my experience and perspective is as follows:
Every time I go outside Dixie, I thank the good Lord that I get to come back.
State flags are official state flags. Flags of defunct governments are not.
As for me, I've spent time all over the US, too. I'd rather live in the South than in California or New York. But I prefer places with mountains. Places that aren't run by liberal yuppies and aren't populated by people who approve of the lifestyle of Cersei Baratheon and Jaime Lannister.
You like many others will never get it. No matter how someone tried to explain it to you it just isn't going to work. We people in the South are proud of our southern history and heritage, but at the same time you would be hard pressed to find a more patriotic group of people so your attempts at equating celebrating southern pride and heritage with flying the British flag and celebrating the kings birthday fail.
Here are those pesky southerners hating America by infiltrating the military at a higher rate than the rest of the country
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-military-is-not-representative-of-country-2014-7
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I'd bet that if you plotted poverty rates they would match up pretty well with enlistment rates.
That's not to say that there's anything wrong with being poor and joining the military. The GI Bill is fantastic and joining the military is a great way to pay for college.
But poor and proud is poor and proud, whether you're living in Compton or Biloxi.
So we should get rid of the White House and Capitol building?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?171524-Here-Is-A-Monument-of-Slavery-Oppression-and-Hatred-That-Needs-To-Come-Down
Why not? We can build new ones, better ones. Ones that represent the invaluable services rendered to this country by the men and women who inhabit these buildings. We can slap great big "McDonald's" and "Wal-Mart" and "Boeing" signs and "Brought to you by George Soros and the Koch Brothers" on them. And we can import workers from Mexico to assemble them and source the raw materials from China.
Bad things happen in war. The Confederacy should have thought of that before they seceded. Before they shelled Fort Sumter.
I was thinking more along the lines of what happened to civilian populations who really had nothing to do with it. But more importantly, I was just trying to explain how some people view the symbol. It's more of a Gadsen than a swastika to most people down here.
Why not? We can build new ones, better ones. Ones that represent the invaluable services rendered to this country by the men and women who inhabit these buildings. We can slap great big "McDonald's" and "Wal-Mart" and "Boeing" signs and "Brought to you by George Soros and the Koch Brothers" on them. And we can import workers from Mexico to assemble them and source the raw materials from China.
Actually, I wouldn't have a huge problem with that. I was mostly just pointing out the irony of those who inhabit those buildings criticizing the symbolism of the confederate flag while being apparently oblivious to the history of slavery right under their own feet.
Whiskey_Bravo
07-18-15, 00:32
I'd bet that if you plotted poverty rates they would match up pretty well with enlistment rates.
That's not to say that there's anything wrong with being poor and joining the military. The GI Bill is fantastic and joining the military is a great way to pay for college.
But poor and proud is poor and proud, whether you're living in Compton or Biloxi.
Ahh ok cool, so you agree with the dems and liberals that only the poor join the military.
Your final point I agree with. Let those in Compton be proud and let those in Biloxi be proud.
I was thinking more along the lines of what happened to civilian populations who really had nothing to do with it. But more importantly, I was just trying to explain how some people view the symbol. It's more of a Gadsen than a swastika to most people down here.
Actually, I wouldn't have a huge problem with that. I was mostly just pointing out the irony of those who inhabit those buildings criticizing the symbolism of the confederate flag while being apparently oblivious to the history of slavery right under their own feet.
You read my mind.
The Civil War destroyed the South for over a hundred years at the hands of many murderous, rapist, depraved, immoral, and hypocritical Union soldiers. Being black and positioned north of the Mason Dixon wasn't a guarantee of living free.
Much of the South had no choice but to fight lest their homes, wives, daughters, and sons fall victim to Union destruction and savagery. Echoing the same atrocities and injustices of Union aggression Native Americans faced causing them to issue declaration of war and side with the South.
No one was innocent. No one was pure. Except the ones who are adorned in our history as heroes.
MountainRaven
07-18-15, 01:47
I was thinking more along the lines of what happened to civilian populations who really had nothing to do with it. But more importantly, I was just trying to explain how some people view the symbol. It's more of a Gadsen than a swastika to most people down here.
I understand that. I was born in North Carolina and grew up rooting for the Grey coats. Whenever our history class would come around to the Civil War, I would do a paper on "Stonewall" Jackson or Robert E. Lee. I argued that the civil war was chiefly about the rights of the states and that the various flags of the Confederacy symbolized the struggle for states' rights. And then I read a book.
I don't understand why y'all seem to think that I don't understand what you see in the flags of the Confederacy.
What I don't understand is why you think it should be flown from government buildings or on government property.
What I don't understand is why being a hyphenated American is OK when you're a Southern-American but not when you're a Mexican-American or an African-American. Why it is acceptable to wave the Confederate battle flag at rallies but not the Mexican flag.
I'm not arguing that one should not be allowed to fly whatever banner they wish on their private property, whether it is Old Glory, the Stars and Bars/Stainless Banner/Blood-Stained Banner, the Southern Cross, the flag of ISIS, the red banner of the Soviet Union, a Nazi swastika, or whatever.
But it is not, IMHO, any more appropriate for any flag of the Confederacy to fly over government property than it is to fly the flag of any other foreign government, past or present.
Actually, I wouldn't have a huge problem with that. I was mostly just pointing out the irony of those who inhabit those buildings criticizing the symbolism of the confederate flag while being apparently oblivious to the history of slavery right under their own feet.
Everybody has a history of slavery.
The key difference is that there were no freed slaves flying the Confederate flag in 1870. But there were many freed slaves in the Capitol in 1870.
Ahh ok cool, so you agree with the dems and liberals that only the poor join the military.
Your final point I agree with. Let those in Compton be proud and let those in Biloxi be proud and piss on you for telling them how they can do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__kQX12S9YI
Yeah, totally. Obviously.
I mean, that totally matches my life experience.
Hey, in the meanwhile, the legislature of South Carolina voted to remove the Confederate flag.
"Being right too soon is socially unacceptable."
You read my mind.
The Civil War destroyed the South for over a hundred years at the hands of many murderous, rapist, depraved, immoral, and hypocritical Union soldiers. Being black and positioned north of the Mason Dixon wasn't a guarantee of living free.
Much of the South had no choice but to fight lest their homes, wives, daughters, and sons fall victim to Union destruction and savagery. Echoing the same atrocities and injustices of Union aggression Native Americans faced causing them to issue declaration of war and side with the South.
No one was innocent. No one was pure. Except the ones who are adorned in our history as heroes.
Had these atrocities been committed eighty years later against the Japanese and Germans, you'd be crowning the perpetrators as the most American of Americans and decrying how we no longer have the stomach to fight that way any more.
ETA: Just remember: Most of those who marched into battle under the Confederate flag in 1865 marched into polling stations in 1866 to vote for men who would pass gun control laws. There was very, very good reason why black men discharged from the Union army were allowed to keep their arms.
ETA: Just remember: Most of those who marched into battle under the Confederate flag in 1865 marched into polling stations in 1866 to vote for men who would pass gun control laws. There was very, very good reason why black men discharged from the Union army were allowed to keep their arms.
Finally you point out the convenient and hypocritical side of history. :)
Do you know a not insignificant portion of free Southern blacks were slave owners?
Then you should also know a significant population of the Union states did not want to deal with the repercussions of Emancipation any more than the South. Some say they helped force Lincoln's hand in declaring war. Keep their moral high ground while letting the South burn and deal with the chaos of former slaves living among their former masters. It may have been the perfect plan.
Much more politically correct than shipping slaves to Liberia or Lincoln's plan to ship them to the much more convenient yet deadlier conditions of the Caribbean and Central America.
Instantly wiping out a flag due to a murderer displaying that flag will continue the intended course of setting our country back to possibly worse race relations than the Civil Rights era. What have we let our once great country become for such rampant emotional nonsense to take hold?
When were the years of peaceful and dignified resistance in the face of indignity forgotten? Sides were drawn then to justifiably fight segregation. Now sides have been drawn over a FLAG. Over an emotion, not equality!
Is it now a right NOT to be offended? Is it now only politically correct to shame and force others to be politically correct? How good is good enough and how far must we be pushed? To the brink again??
I understand that. I was born in North Carolina and grew up rooting for the Grey coats. Whenever our history class would come around to the Civil War, I would do a paper on "Stonewall" Jackson or Robert E. Lee. I argued that the civil war was chiefly about the rights of the states and that the various flags of the Confederacy symbolized the struggle for states' rights. And then I read a book.
I don't understand why y'all seem to think that I don't understand what you see in the flags of the Confederacy.
What I don't understand is why you think it should be flown from government buildings or on government property.
What I don't understand is why being a hyphenated American is OK when you're a Southern-American but not when you're a Mexican-American or an African-American. Why it is acceptable to wave the Confederate battle flag at rallies but not the Mexican flag.
I'm not arguing that one should not be allowed to fly whatever banner they wish on their private property, whether it is Old Glory, the Stars and Bars/Stainless Banner/Blood-Stained Banner, the Southern Cross, the flag of ISIS, the red banner of the Soviet Union, a Nazi swastika, or whatever.
But it is not, IMHO, any more appropriate for any flag of the Confederacy to fly over government property than it is to fly the flag of any other foreign government, past or present.
Well first things first, I was born in Iowa so I'm not really a "y'all", I just understand them. I'm also not hyphenated, I'm neither a southern American, nor a northern American. I get why a CSA flag may not be the most appropriate state flag (Hello, GA we are talking about you), but I don't have any real problem with it being flown over a Civil War memorial on government property. Of course I don't have problems with "Manger Scenes" on the lawn of the local FD during the holiday seasons either, I'm just tolerant when it comes to some things.
Hell if the Compton FD wanted to put a black baby Jesus in their "manger scene" complete with an "X" t shirt I probably couldn't pretend to get offended about that either. Wasn't crazy about letting Farrakan spew his racism at the National Mall, but whatever...price of freedom.
Was the Civil War a Fiscal Conflict? http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2015/07/a-flawed-defense-of-the-south-civil-war.html
Was the Civil War a Fiscal Conflict? http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2015/07/a-flawed-defense-of-the-south-civil-war.html
Yes...
Outlander Systems
07-18-15, 08:48
Hell if the Compton FD wanted to put a black baby Jesus in their "manger scene" complete with an "X" t shirt I probably couldn't pretend to get offended about that either. Wasn't crazy about letting Farrakan spew his racism at the National Mall, but whatever...price of freedom.
And that, right there, is what used to make this country great.
We've gone so far down the rabbit hole, and so few people share that respect for liberty, that's it's only a matter of time before a pink flamingo in my front yard (which has a special significance to me) will get a SWAT team kicking down my door and flash-banging my 8 year old, or at the very least, I get an appearance on the 17:00 news.
For the love of God, why can't people just live and let live?
Was the Civil War a Fiscal Conflict? http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2015/07/a-flawed-defense-of-the-south-civil-war.html
Of course it was. The problem is, to understand that, you need an attention span longer than 30 seconds and an IQ above room temperature.
So, for the vast majority of folks it's just, "Slavery bad. Evil white trash redneck racists. Derp"
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-18-15, 12:47
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/18/europe/uk-queen-nazi-salute-footage/index.html
Good thing it wasn't a confederate flag or she would have had to abdicate.
MountainRaven
07-18-15, 17:39
Finally you point out the convenient and hypocritical side of history. :)
Do you know a not insignificant portion of free Southern blacks were slave owners?
Then you should also know a significant population of the Union states did not want to deal with the repercussions of Emancipation any more than the South. Some say they helped force Lincoln's hand in declaring war. Keep their moral high ground while letting the South burn and deal with the chaos of former slaves living among their former masters. It may have been the perfect plan.
Much more politically correct than shipping slaves to Liberia or Lincoln's plan to ship them to the much more convenient yet deadlier conditions of the Caribbean and Central America.
Freeing the slaves was not the Union's aim.
Keeping them in chains was the aim of the Confederacy.
I am familiar with the fact that there were many black freeman slave owners in 1860. There were, however, many, many more black freeman former-slaves in 1865.
Finally, the Confederacy alone bears total responsibility for the start of the war: Had they not decided that they were unhappy with the democratic process they never would have seceded before Lincoln was even sworn into office. Had they not decided to shell Fort Sumter, the Union never would have needed to send Federal troops into the South to subdue the rebellion.
While slavery was undoubtedly on the way out, the Civil War and its aftermath almost certainly accelerated the emancipation of American slaves. Had the South decided not to secede, Abraham Lincoln would probably not have become the "Great Emancipator". That title would probably have fallen to some president in the 1880s or so.
Well first things first, I was born in Iowa so I'm not really a "y'all", I just understand them. I'm also not hyphenated, I'm neither a southern American, nor a northern American. I get why a CSA flag may not be the most appropriate state flag (Hello, GA we are talking about you), but I don't have any real problem with it being flown over a Civil War memorial on government property. Of course I don't have problems with "Manger Scenes" on the lawn of the local FD during the holiday seasons either, I'm just tolerant when it comes to some things.
Hell if the Compton FD wanted to put a black baby Jesus in their "manger scene" complete with an "X" t shirt I probably couldn't pretend to get offended about that either. Wasn't crazy about letting Farrakan spew his racism at the National Mall, but whatever...price of freedom.
I wasn't directing the y'all at just you. Second person plural: Everybody in the thread on the otherside of the issue.
And I don't get offended by manger scenes - whether the baby is black or white - or government buildings flying flags that are not state flags or have thirteen stripes on them. But I understand why that offends some people - and it is my opinion that there are more appropriate flags to fly that neither dishonor the memories of the dead nor offer offense to any but the most butthurt. As I have mentioned elsewhere, all veterans of the Civil War are considered by the government to be veterans of the US military, regardless of whether they fought for the Union or the rebellion, so I do not see why Old Glory cannot fly at their memorials in lieu of the more contentious Southern Cross.
Eurodriver
07-18-15, 18:43
As I have mentioned elsewhere, all veterans of the Civil War are considered by the government to be veterans of the US military, regardless of whether they fought for the Union or the rebellion, so I do not see why Old Glory cannot fly at their memorials in lieu of the more contentious Southern Cross.
Whether or not the US Military considers them as members of the same is irrelevant. They fought and died for the CSA.
I'd be kind of pissed if England invaded the USA tomorrow and, after our defeat, declared that all American patriots were simply misguided British colonists. **** no.
I don't care anymore... this whole thing is stupid. Seriously. None of this is even close to the conversation we should be having in this county.
I wasn't directing the y'all at just you. Second person plural: Everybody in the thread on the otherside of the issue.
And I don't get offended by manger scenes - whether the baby is black or white - or government buildings flying flags that are not state flags or have thirteen stripes on them. But I understand why that offends some people - and it is my opinion that there are more appropriate flags to fly that neither dishonor the memories of the dead nor offer offense to any but the most butthurt. As I have mentioned elsewhere, all veterans of the Civil War are considered by the government to be veterans of the US military, regardless of whether they fought for the Union or the rebellion, so I do not see why Old Glory cannot fly at their memorials in lieu of the more contentious Southern Cross.
I wasn't offended by the "y'all" direct to me or not. I was just explaining my particulars.
And so we get on the same page, you make a valid point about "all veterans of the Civil War are considered by the government to be veterans of the US military, regardless of whether they fought for the Union or the rebellion, so I do not see why Old Glory cannot fly at their memorials."
But again, I think some people are protesting other issues and fly the southern cross the way others might fly a gadsen. Personally I'm a gadsen guy, unless we are talking bikini's.
MountainRaven
07-18-15, 22:17
Whether or not the US Military considers them as members of the same is irrelevant. They fought and died for the CSA.
I'd be kind of pissed if England invaded the USA tomorrow and, after our defeat, declared that all American patriots were simply misguided British colonists. **** no.
You're comparing a country that lasted four years with one that has endured for over two and a quarter centuries.
If the US had been defeated during the Revolution or conquered or made a client state during the War of 1812 (the latter of which is still longer than the CSA existed), we'd be lucky to get to fly the Union Jack over the graves of our fallen. (More likely they'd give us a new flag with thirteen stripes and the Union Jack in the ensign and we'd be flying that.)
You should be thankful that the US decided to reconcile with the South rather than do what every other country has done in history: Treat the rebels as traitors and either hang them or send them into exile. In no other country would the flying of the flag of traitors even be tolerated.
I wasn't offended by the "y'all" direct to me or not. I was just explaining my particulars.
And so we get on the same page, you make a valid point about "all veterans of the Civil War are considered by the government to be veterans of the US military, regardless of whether they fought for the Union or the rebellion, so I do not see why Old Glory cannot fly at their memorials."
But again, I think some people are protesting other issues and fly the southern cross the way others might fly a gadsen. Personally I'm a gadsen guy, unless we are talking bikini's.
I prefer the Betsy Ross, myself.
Eurodriver
07-19-15, 06:00
You should be thankful that the US decided to reconcile with the South rather than do what every other country has done in history: Treat the rebels as traitors and either hang them or send them into exile. In no other country would the flying of the flag of traitors even be tolerated.
The North did not reconcile. They sent down carpet baggers to steal land and ruin our way of life.
Are you really telling me Sherman's march was one of us peace and unification? Get out of here bro. My grandmother referred to that "wretched Sherman" until the day she died.
The North should be lucky that the South surrendered like gentlemen instead of waging a guerilla war for decades afterward.
Averageman
07-19-15, 07:10
As if the stupid wasn't strong enough yet.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/07/18/kkk-african-american-group-plan-overlapping-rallies--sc-capitol/30340763/
The two opposing groups faced off as each called attention to their causes. On one side, protesters with the KKK chanted "white power" and waved Confederate flags. On the other side, activists with Black Educators for Justice yelled "black power" and held their hands in the air.
Other reporters tweeted that some protesters opposing the Confederate battle flag grabbed one of the flags from the KKK and tore it to pieces. As the rallies continued, additional law enforcement officers arrived to keep the peace.
The North did not reconcile. They sent down carpet baggers to steal land and ruin our way of life.
Are you really telling me Sherman's march was one of us peace and unification? Get out of here bro. My grandmother referred to that "wretched Sherman" until the day she died.
The North should be lucky that the South surrendered like gentlemen instead of waging a guerilla war for decades afterward.
I wish more people got the whole southern pride thing. It's a culture unto itself. Hell I was born in the bluest of the Yankee states, loathed every minute of it.
MountainRaven
07-19-15, 14:12
The North did not reconcile. They sent down carpet baggers to steal land and ruin our way of life.
Are you really telling me Sherman's march was one of us peace and unification? Get out of here bro. My grandmother referred to that "wretched Sherman" until the day she died.
The North should be lucky that the South surrendered like gentlemen instead of waging a guerilla war for decades afterward.
Ha!
I give you the gentlemen of the South: Burning churches, beating Northerners, lynching blacks. A people so perfectly serene and accepting of their military failures and willing to live by their word that habeas corpus had to be suspended in it in 1870. That the 101st Airborne had to be dispatched to keep the peace in 1957. That the nation got to watch in horror as they turned firehoses and dogs and rubber bullets and batons on peaceful protestors throughout the 50s and 60s.
These are undoubtedly the acts of gentlemen, the long, bloody history of European aristocracy carried into the New World. The same abominable aristocracy that bathed the Old in the blood of their "inferiors" for centuries. And like that august body of inbred idiocy, of sunken chins and moral depravity, the gentlemen of the South were little more than a good old boys club, more concerned with breeding and religion than with merit or ability or the law.
If you need the gentlemen of the Klan to protect your land and your way of life, you deserve to have them stolen and ruined.
So the KKK is some how a reflection of the contemporary South in it's entirety? Because that's what sounds like your saying.
Eurodriver
07-19-15, 15:27
Lynching blacks? ~3500 over 150 years according to sources. How endemic violence is to the white American South! Real quick though, how many whites have been murdered by blacks since the year 2000?
I appreciate the sentiment and hype, but this nonsense about the "old world" and European aristocracy is just that. Nonsense. You are taking 21st century values and placing them in 19th century reality. Slavery is deplorable, but prior to the late 1880s slavery had been an acceptable practice since the beginning of time. It's easy to look at slavery from a time period where homosexuals can get married in an Episcopal church and no one even notices that a white man has an Asian wife and say "Wow! How could they be so repulsive?"
The issue with the entire argument has always been that the CSA is being judged through the lens of the modern day, and why Southerners can so fervently and honestly say "Heritage, not hate."
But in retrospect. Maybe it is about hate. Just not hate for blacks.
The real hate is for the federal government and a population hell bent on forcing its way of life down the throats of others at gunpoint. How has that been working out for us recently?
You have more in common with the South than you think brother.
“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
Abraham Lincoln
Source:
Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858
(The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, pp. 145-146.)
Disgusting. How can you have a memorial to him in Washington D.C.? It should be removed.
So the KKK is some how a reflection of the contemporary South in it's entirety? Because that's what sounds like your saying.
fjallhrafn and I agree on many things (Muslims, the GOP, etc). This doesn't appear to be one of them, and it is interesting how someone normally grounded in reality can resort to emotion and rhetoric so quickly! Yes JP, we are all klansmen down here!
Ha!
I give you the gentlemen of the South: Burning churches, beating Northerners, lynching blacks. A people so perfectly serene and accepting of their military failures and willing to live by their word that habeas corpus had to be suspended in it in 1870. That the 101st Airborne had to be dispatched to keep the peace in 1957. That the nation got to watch in horror as they turned firehoses and dogs and rubber bullets and batons on peaceful protestors throughout the 50s and 60s.
These are undoubtedly the acts of gentlemen, the long, bloody history of European aristocracy carried into the New World. The same abominable aristocracy that bathed the Old in the blood of their "inferiors" for centuries. And like that august body of inbred idiocy, of sunken chins and moral depravity, the gentlemen of the South were little more than a good old boys club, more concerned with breeding and religion than with merit or ability or the law.
If you need the gentlemen of the Klan to protect your land and your way of life, you deserve to have them stolen and ruined.
^ The definition of "stereotype". Well, at least Clayton Bigsby would agree with you...
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT17vIr4irJd7CV4XT-NfU3om4gTZf9idN2Vpv7XrotFttR8VxW0g
There's a reason why people who can afford to move to the south when they retire do so....and it's not because of the wonderful KKK presence either.
It has to do with having prettier woman, nice weather, and better country!
Lynching blacks? ~3500 over 150 years according to sources. How endemic violence is to the white American South! Real quick though, how many whites have been murdered by blacks since the year 2000?
I appreciate the sentiment and hype, but this nonsense about the "old world" and European aristocracy is just that. Nonsense. You are taking 21st century values and placing them in 19th century reality. Slavery is deplorable, but prior to the late 1880s slavery had been an acceptable practice since the beginning of time. It's easy to look at slavery from a time period where homosexuals can get married in an Episcopal church and no one even notices that a white man has an Asian wife and say "Wow! How could they be so repulsive?"
The issue with the entire argument has always been that the CSA is being judged through the lens of the modern day, and why Southerners can so fervently and honestly say "Heritage, not hate."
But in retrospect. Maybe it is about hate. Just not hate for blacks.
The real hate is for the federal government and a population hell bent on forcing its way of life down the throats of others at gunpoint. How has that been working out for us recently?
You have more in common with the South than you think brother.
“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
Abraham Lincoln
Source:
Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858
(The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, pp. 145-146.)
Disgusting. How can you have a memorial to him in Washington D.C.? It should be removed.
fjallhrafn and I agree on many things (Muslims, the GOP, etc). This doesn't appear to be one of them, and it is interesting how someone normally grounded in reality can resort to emotion and rhetoric so quickly! Yes JP, we are all klansmen down here!
http://cdn2.gurl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/dos-equis-man-clap.gif
Whiskey_Bravo
07-19-15, 18:39
Ha!
I give you the gentlemen of the South: Burning churches, beating Northerners, lynching blacks. A people so perfectly serene and accepting of their military failures and willing to live by their word that habeas corpus had to be suspended in it in 1870. That the 101st Airborne had to be dispatched to keep the peace in 1957. That the nation got to watch in horror as they turned firehoses and dogs and rubber bullets and batons on peaceful protestors throughout the 50s and 60s.
These are undoubtedly the acts of gentlemen, the long, bloody history of European aristocracy carried into the New World. The same abominable aristocracy that bathed the Old in the blood of their "inferiors" for centuries. And like that august body of inbred idiocy, of sunken chins and moral depravity, the gentlemen of the South were little more than a good old boys club, more concerned with breeding and religion than with merit or ability or the law.
If you need the gentlemen of the Klan to protect your land and your way of life, you deserve to have them stolen and ruined.
Wait what? Maybe I am having troubling understanding you, let me take off my hood. Us Southerners wear these things everywhere. Maybe it's not me and you are just talking absolute nonsense.
How many minoroties live up there in southwest Montana again? I am asusuming that's what swmt means?
SeriousStudent
07-19-15, 19:20
Enough name-calling.
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