View Full Version : Starter Reloading Gear/Lit
Gutshot John
07-21-08, 08:09
I may have asked this before, I couldn't find it in the search but forgive me in advance if I did.
We've all seen the price of ammo go nuts lately and more and more I've been looking into reloading my own practice ammo. This summer I've been shooting about 1k/month+, I understand that this may not seem like a lot, but it is rapidly becoming cost prohibitive and I'd probably shoot more if I could lessen costs.
Let me start by saying my only reloading experience has been with plastic shotgun shells in my buddies basement. I've never cleaned and reloaded brass, my question basically boils down to:
What's the best way to start learning/doing?
1. What is the essential gear I need (i.e. press, tumbler, dies etc.)? In order of priority I'd like to be able to load of the following, but they are in order of preference: .223, 9mm, .308 and finally .45. (I realize two different rifle cartridges and two different pistol cartridges may be cost prohibitive for the beginner).
2. I'd prefer spending money on gear that can be "grown into" but still functional for the beginner. I typically imagine reloading 2-300 rounds at a time, or enough for a range session.
3. Any particular literature that would make a good reloading "bible"?
4. As for what "I want to spend" in short I don't really know enough yet to even make that decision. I imagine in the $500 range, but I'm not sure if that's too much or too little (i.e. realistic). Less would obviously be better.
Thanks in advance.
John
I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, never reloaded anything. I think i'm going to go with the Dillon XL 650, the .223rem die and also buy the Powder checker. From the guys at my work Dillon is the only way.
The 650 looks like it's the middle of the road. 550b is the lesser model and the 1050 is the top of the line.
Dillon. If loading progressively seems intimidating at first, just run a single case at a time.
You'll need a trimming system. Either get a Dillon trimmer/trim die combo (approx $250) or get a Giraud (approx $350). Either way I'd set up two toolheads, a case prep tollhead and a loading toolhead.
I load on a Dillon XL650. I've had the press about a year and have loaded about 7000 rounds on it so far, all .45ACP as that is what I shoot the most. I just got a .223 setup for it and am cranking out the rest of the .45 bullets I have to make a stockpile and will switch it over.
Dillon is expensive to start with, but if you're shooting 1k/month you'll pay for a 650 in ammo savings in 12 months. With .223, assuming you can get once fired brass somewhere cheap or free, you'll pay about $160/1000 to load. Sure beats $360+/1000 factory... Dillon also has incredible customer service. If something is wrong, they have a top-notch support staff. If something is broken they send a part out in the mail, no questions asked.
The way I did it was found a friend who was already loading with a 550. I bought some components and went over to his house and he showed me how it all worked and I left with confidence and 200 rounds of finished ammo. I decided that I wanted a 650 because of the possibility of the case feeder and because there is less chance of making a mistake with an auto-indexing press. The same friend helped me get it set up and I've been cranking out rounds ever since.
I'd recommend buying the book The ABC's of Reloading (http://www.amazon.com/Abcs-Reloading-Definitive-Novice-Expert/dp/0896896099) and a good reloading manual from one of the big guys (I like Speer's very much) and reading them. You don't need to read the loading data, obviously, but read everything else. Then you'll know what you're getting into.
You will need:
* A press
* A bench to mount it on
* Dies
* Powder measure (included on a Dillon)
* A scale (beam or digital)
* Calipers (digital seem cool but they seem to be out of batteries all the time)
* A trimming method, as jmart mentioned.
* A tumbler, media, and media separator for cleaning
* Components for the caliber you will load
There are other things you may want that you'll start figuring out as you get going. If you get a Dillon 550 or 650, get the aluminum roller handle. You'll thank me later. If you get a 650, get the case feeder. Using a 650 without a case feeder is like driving a Ferrari in a traffic jam. Ask me how I know.
If you're going to load a lot of calibers, a 550 is easier and cheaper to switch over. For example, my full .223 setup was close to $300. Fortunately that will pay for itself in under 2000 loaded rounds. However, you can just load in large batches between change-overs and the time isn't such a big deal.
If you do decide to go Dillon, check out brianenos.com. It's a great resource and the site breaks down everything you will need. If you spend over $400 (you will) then shipping is free.
Good luck!
Gutshot John
07-21-08, 17:00
I load on a Dillon XL650. I've had the press about a year and have loaded about 7000 rounds on it so far, all .45ACP as that is what I shoot the most. I just got a .223 setup for it and am cranking out the rest of the .45 bullets I have to make a stockpile and will switch it over.
Dillon is expensive to start with, but if you're shooting 1k/month you'll pay for a 650 in ammo savings in 12 months. With .223, assuming you can get once fired brass somewhere cheap or free, you'll pay about $160/1000 to load. Sure beats $360+/1000 factory... Dillon also has incredible customer service. If something is wrong, they have a top-notch support staff. If something is broken they send a part out in the mail, no questions asked.
The way I did it was found a friend who was already loading with a 550. I bought some components and went over to his house and he showed me how it all worked and I left with confidence and 200 rounds of finished ammo. I decided that I wanted a 650 because of the possibility of the case feeder and because there is less chance of making a mistake with an auto-indexing press. The same friend helped me get it set up and I've been cranking out rounds ever since.
I'd recommend buying the book The ABC's of Reloading (http://www.amazon.com/Abcs-Reloading-Definitive-Novice-Expert/dp/0896896099) and a good reloading manual from one of the big guys (I like Speer's very much) and reading them. You don't need to read the loading data, obviously, but read everything else. Then you'll know what you're getting into.
You will need:
* A press
* A bench to mount it on
* Dies
* Powder measure (included on a Dillon)
* A scale (beam or digital)
* Calipers (digital seem cool but they seem to be out of batteries all the time)
* A trimming method, as jmart mentioned.
* A tumbler, media, and media separator for cleaning
* Components for the caliber you will load
There are other things you may want that you'll start figuring out as you get going. If you get a Dillon 550 or 650, get the aluminum roller handle. You'll thank me later. If you get a 650, get the case feeder. Using a 650 without a case feeder is like driving a Ferrari in a traffic jam. Ask me how I know.
If you're going to load a lot of calibers, a 550 is easier and cheaper to switch over. For example, my full .223 setup was close to $300. Fortunately that will pay for itself in under 2000 loaded rounds. However, you can just load in large batches between change-overs and the time isn't such a big deal.
If you do decide to go Dillon, check out brianenos.com. It's a great resource and the site breaks down everything you will need. If you spend over $400 (you will) then shipping is free.
Good luck!
Bro that is awesome.
Thanks for taking the time to think/type that up.
Thanks to everyone for their input.
I had a 650 + feeder for about two weeks for reloading .45 ... it was so much fun I sold all my .45's and switched to 9mm so I could just buy in bulk. :cool:
Reloading ... :mad:
But the machine itself was fantastic and if I wanted (or needed) to get back into reloading, there would be another 650 with casefeeder on my bench.
Another possibility to consider would be a Square Deal B. It's cheap, includes dies for one pistol caliber, and would let you give reloading on a progressive press a try before you committed the kind of money the 650 + accessories will cost. If you like it, you could either sell it (SDB's go for good money used) or keep it set up permanently for your most common handgun caliber while keeping the 650 set up for .223 or .308, depending on which you shoot more.
The SDB is not nearly as ergonomic and smooth as the 650, but if you're only going to do a couple hundred rounds at a time it's workable. I had one of those, too, for about a week before selling it.
Picking up brass is just a gateway to satan worship, I'm convinced. :cool:
Gutshot John
07-21-08, 18:00
I had a 650 + feeder for about two weeks for reloading .45 ... it was so much fun I sold all my .45's and switched to 9mm so I could just buy in bulk. :cool:
Reloading ... :mad:
But the machine itself was fantastic and if I wanted (or needed) to get back into reloading, there would be another 650 with casefeeder on my bench.
Another possibility to consider would be a Square Deal B. It's cheap, includes dies for one pistol caliber, and would let you give reloading on a progressive press a try before you committed the kind of money the 650 + accessories will cost. If you like it, you could either sell it (SDB's go for good money used) or keep it set up permanently for your most common handgun caliber while keeping the 650 set up for .223 or .308, depending on which you shoot more.
The SDB is not nearly as ergonomic and smooth as the 650, but if you're only going to do a couple hundred rounds at a time it's workable. I had one of those, too, for about a week before selling it.
Picking up brass is just a gateway to satan worship, I'm convinced. :cool:
Another good suggestion from one of the afflicted. :D
I went through Brian Enos and boy does reloading add up fast, even with just one caliber on a 650.
$500 was fantasy apparently. The SBD idea has a lot of merit.
Don't get me wrong, you'll drop near a grand on a 650 and all the trimmings for your first caliber. It's a lot of money. I did it because I was shooting 800-1000 rounds per month of .45. At current prices, I load .45 for about $150/1000 including shipping on components. The cheapest factory stuff I can buy is Winchester White Box at Chinamart for about $32/100 after tax. Saving $170/1000 pays for that press in under 6000 rounds. In .223 the payback is even faster.
Yes, it's a commitment and yes it is work but it's work of the least undesirable kind, if you know what I mean. I'd rather reload then say, mow the lawn or clean up dog crap in the yard. And with a machine like the 650 you can load all of your ammo for the month in 2 hours on a weekend afternoon once you have the hang of it.
I don't mean to sound like Dillon is the only way and you certainly owe it to yourself to look at the options. But go to any large pistol match and ask everyone what machine they use to make their ammo. And if you really don't like it or don't think it's worth it, you can get 90+% of what you paid for it all on eBay. The lifetime warranty is so good that the gear really holds its value.
ETA: The Square Deal B is a good deal, but it only loads straight wall pistol calibers and uses it's own unique dies. As mentioned, it might make a great second press for a high-count pistol caliber, but if you want to load many calibers or rifle calibers (progressively) I wouldn't want it as a primary press.
Another good source for Dillon equipment is e-guns.com, they're right here on this board.
Don't bother trimming your pistol brass, it's a waste of time. Bottle necked rifle brass will require trimming however.
Can you shed some light on how many hours/month you're willing to devote to reloading? If you are willing to devote 3-4/week there are less costly alternatives, equally effective, both within and outside of Dillon's product line.
Gutshot John
07-22-08, 07:23
Honestly I'm not sure yet, I just don't know how long it necessarily takes as I've never done this before in bulk.
Ideally I'd take the time in a month that will allow me to load my practice rounds for the month.
Since I shoot approx 1k month I guess about that, but I have no idea how long that might take.
I am a slave to the reloading bench because I'm a cheap cuss and I like to shoot a lot and not pay outrageous sums for factory new ammo if I don't have to.
The Dillon 550 gives you tons of flexibility with the easy-to-chage reloading heads -- you can be set up for 5.56, 7.62, 45, and 9mm respectively within 15 minutes of changing heads (the fine tuning is in changing from small to large primers).
Economy in handloading is relative -- it may take you a few years to make back your investment, but eventually you will be saving a whole lot more than if you were buying ammo retail.
What you'll need:
A good manual (Lyman 48th edition is a great start);
Dillon 550 set up for at least one caliber (from the factory);
a bench to mount it to (can be as simple as a small bench if reloading in the apartment or garage -- I am in the military so I have to take everything apart every two or three years and move it somewhere else);
a scale to measure powder charges;
drop-in case gage for rifle cases;
automatic case trimmer to trim rifle cases to length (Gracey or Giraud if reloading in bulk);
a case tumbler and corn-cob tumbling media (to get all the crap and soot off fired cases and save your dies).
You can buy bulk prepped brass from guys like Pat's Reloading and GI Brass. You can e-shop around for the best component prices (buy powder and primers in bulk to save on HAZMAT shipping charges, usually by FEDEX Ground or UPS).
I've loaded tens of thousands of rounds on my 550 and my handloads shoot better than factory. I can put out 100 45 auto rounds in 10-15 minutes. I am more particular about my rifle ammo (I shoot National Match and 800-900-1000 yard Palma Course so it takes longer).
Loading 500 rounds of 45 may take a little over an hour after you put the kids to sleep.
Dillon can sell you everything you need (eventually you may need to put them on speed dial).
Good luck.
Production rates for pistol run 150-200 rounds/hr on a turret press. I don't bother trimming cases which speeds thing up considerably. I use carbide dies, you don't need to lube the cases but I still do. Makes the press run smoothly. Good press kits can be had for under $125.
Move up to a DIllon 550/650 and you're into the 300+ rounds/hour. Using a case feeder on a 650 and you are probably pushing 500/hr. $400-500 investment in press, with maybe an additional $100 of Dillon add-ons (trays, handle upgardes, strong mounts).
Regardless of which route you go, expect another $150 investment in tools, tumbler, manuals. You can forgo a tumbler and go with a chemical cleaner, that saves some bucks. But with a chemical cleaner, your time is invested in cleaning, whereas with a tumbler, you load it up, turn it, walk away and do whatever for the next 30-60 minutes. You get the idea.
Rifle is a bit trickier. You'll need to trim cases, probably every 2nd/3rd loading, but I just trim at each loading using a Dillon trimmer which also functions a resizer (my philosophy -- you have to resize the cases, might as well trim at the same time). At this point you are paying for convenience. The trimmer/trim die setup runs $240 IIRC. Alternatives are a Gracey or Giraud, which trim off the press ($250-350), a standard lathe-type trimmer ($50), a Lee trim pilot ($15), and some types you use in a drill press. All work equally effectively, but with the electric ones you are paying for convenience and speed.
If in your 1,000 rounds per month, if that includes at least 300-400 rounds of .223, I'd pay for convenience. Processing those numers on the older equipment will drive you insane after awhile. But if you shoot only a couple hundred rounds/month, then you can get by with the other types. Just to give you an idea, I would guess my production rate is at least 3X, maybe 4X what I can do with my old Lee Trim Pilot that I used with an electric drill.
With my rifle setup I run two toolheads -- a trimming/resizing toolhead for case prep, this is followed by a tumbling to remove lube, then on to a 2nd toolhead that's setup with powder charger, seater and crimper. I usually do a lot of my case prep work over the winter months, so come loading time I have a bunch of prepped/primed cases ready to load. If I concentrate on maintaining good rhythm, I can maintain 300 rounds/hr on my 550, that's w/o a case feeder, using ball powder exclusively, and relying on manual indexing.
You'll need a trimming system. Either get a Dillon trimmer/trim die combo (approx $250) or get a Giraud (approx $350).
Case trimming is for the birds. At least if you're just loading practice/bulk ammo. If you load specific kinds of brass, you can really get away with little to no trimming at all. Priv, UMC, and AE223 (LC) come to mind. I've loaded probably over 30k rounds of .223 and never trimmed anything. I do monitor my case lengths though. I opt for the Lee factory crimp die, although I could probably get away without it because I really hardly ever get any brass that stretches very far out of spec before it hits the scrap bucket anyway.
It's weird. AE223 brass (the LC stuff) has almost NO stretch to it, but XM193 LC brass stretches pretty good. I haven't figgered that one out yet.
Winchester brass is by far the worst as far as stretching goes... Including IMI M855. If I get any Win brass, I just count on loading it once and that's it.
Either way I'd set up two toolheads, a case prep tollhead and a loading toolhead.
This is exactly what I do. I have my resizing/decap die in one tool head, and the rest of the process in another tool head.
When I first started loading, I tried running the rifle just like the pistol. You can get away with it, but it's really not the best way to load .223.
How fast can you change out the tool head on the 650? And demigod, on your second or final toolhead did you change out the resizing/decap die with Dillon's Rapid Trim 1200B Case Trimmer?
The 650 toolhead itself takes only a moment or two to change. It's held in place by two pins and the powder measure reset bar. My guess is that you may be asking how long to do a full caliber change. It's really not much longer than a 550 (15 - 20 minutes) unless you need to change primer sizes (like from .45 to .223) in which case you can add another 20 - 30 minutes. The primer assembly is more complex on a 650, but it's also much better in my opinion, having used both.
Dillon has a fix for this, for lots of money of course. You can buy a complete second primer system for about $80 and have one set up in each size. Then it's a 5 minute switch-out instead of 20+. I don't have one, but if I find myself switching primer sizes often I may spend the money.
And demigod, on your second or final toolhead did you change out the resizing/decap die with Dillon's Rapid Trim 1200B Case Trimmer?
Nope! I don't trim. If brass gets too long, I throw it in the scrap metal bucket. Generally, the primer pocket is loose before the case needs cutting. Regardless, I scrap brass after 3 loadings or less depending on the kind.
Station 1 on my 2nd toolhead is empty!
Nope! I don't trim. If brass gets too long, I throw it in the scrap metal bucket. Generally, the primer pocket is loose before the case needs cutting. Regardless, I scrap brass after 3 loadings or less depending on the kind.
Station 1 on my 2nd toolhead is empty!
I'm hoping not to trim but I want to be able to max savings. I've heard about primer pockets being loose. Is that because of to high of a load or is that normal to only last like 3 times?
Dillon. If loading progressively seems intimidating at first, just run a single case at a time.
You'll need a trimming system. Either get a Dillon trimmer/trim die combo (approx $250) or get a Giraud (approx $350). Either way I'd set up two toolheads, a case prep tollhead and a loading toolhead.
Crap I got confused with quotes and stuff. I would like to know about your case prep toolhead. what do you have on it? Is you loading toolhead still normal?
Dillon 550
Case Prep Toolhead:
Station 1 -- trimmer and trim die
Station 2 -- empty
Station 3 -- conventional Lee resizer, backed out a turn. Purpose is to run trimmed and sized case back over an expander ball
Station 4 -- empty
Loading Toolhead:
Station 1 -- Univ flaring die adjusted to put the slightest flare on case mouth (needed when seating FB bullets)
Station 2 -- Powder charging die/measure
Station 3 -- Forster seater
Station 4 -- Lee Factory Crimp die
Switchout is like stated above, pull 2 pins, slide one head out, slide other head in, reinsert both pins. 10-15 seconds max
I'm hoping not to trim but I want to be able to max savings. I've heard about primer pockets being loose. Is that because of to high of a load or is that normal to only last like 3 times?
I just quit at 3 so I don't have to worry about separation or splits. Some people get over 6 loads out of brass.
Primer pocket looseness is brand dependant. Some stay tighter longer than others.
The reason I don't sweat case length is Black Hills blue box. That brass is so freakin' out of case length spec, it's not funny. But you never hear a single complaint about the ammo. My guess is that if you aren't loading really hot ammo, which I don't since there's no need for practice ammo to be super hot, then a little extra case length won't hurt you.
eightmillimeter
07-23-08, 18:01
One book I found really helpful was the one I got from the NRA Metallic Cartridge Reloading class I took many years ago. I still find myself looking at that from time to time and you can probably find it for a reasonable price on the NRA's training materials ordering website.
eightmillimeter
07-23-08, 18:03
Reloading ... :mad:
Picking up brass is just a gateway to satan worship, I'm convinced. :cool:
LOL, if only I worked for an accredited website where manufacturers would just give me a pistol to test and 50000 rounds of ammo for free.
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