View Full Version : Road Rage Against Motoryclist Turns Physical
ForTehNguyen
07-14-15, 19:48
Rider handled it well, better than I would have. Tough guy turns cold after finding out moto rider was recording and ends up looking like Gollum at one point lol. Footage starts at :50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZueHaDP4hU&t=50
Would it have been a good shoot if the rider was carrying? I don't know if all of the elements were present considering the rider sounded much younger, was wearing protective gear, and it was 2 on 1.
Good on the ride for keeping calm and diffusing the situation though.
SomeOtherGuy
07-14-15, 20:09
The rider handled it incredibly well, and the video of the whole incident is extremely valuable.
Depending on the state laws it probably would have been a legitimate self-defense shooting, since it appears as if the rider was physically attacked without any provocation. Yeah, the guy's older and no weapon is visible, but he's obviously strong enough and crazy enough to make a physical attack (not like he's in a wheelchair) and an unprovoked attack like that would make me in fear for my life.
Hopefully the crazy guy will get the cool down time he needs, maybe some mental health work if he needs it, and lose his license.
Edit to add: in late summer 2014 there was a "road rage" incident in Michigan where two white guys, one 69 and one 43, got in a fight over nothing. It appears that the old guy started it and was looking for a fight, the 43yo guy argued with him, and at some point the older guy pulled his pistol and shot and killed the younger guy. The old guy was charged with murder and pleaded self defense. He claimed that the 43yo guy had physically attacked him, but as far as I'm aware there was no evidence of this, and witnesses testified that he had not. The jury didn't buy the self defense claim - nor do I think they should have.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/06/12/martin-zale-road-rage-shooting-howell-sentencing/71141426/
ForTehNguyen
07-14-15, 21:26
Would it have been a good shoot if the rider was carrying? I don't know if all of the elements were present considering the rider sounded much younger, was wearing protective gear, and it was 2 on 1.
Good on the ride for keeping calm and diffusing the situation though.
bystander in a car was behind gollum, too risky. Could use your head literally like this video :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dONyv-Cwkoo
Yeah, that dude would have been toast after the first hit. I really don't care what his problem is at that point.
nimdabew
"Would it have been a good shoot if the rider was carrying? I don't know if all of the elements were present considering the rider sounded much younger, was wearing protective gear, and it was 2 on 1"
On the basis of what's shown it does not appear the actions of the older driver meet the criteria of "great bodily injury" or "posing an imminent threat to life."
If he attempted to drive into or ram the motorcyclists, or produced a weapon or tool to use against them, then I believe the criteria for justfiable homicide is met at least for California.
Same for the reverse, the motorcyclists would have to pose an imminent threat to the driver. In court, it would weigh heavily against the driver that he exited his vehicle and approaches the two riders, essentially becoming the antagonist.
In the greater scheme of things, sometimes it's just better to avoid or ignore assholes and jerks on the road. Not worth it unless they came after you then it's another story.
As for myself, I never ride a motorcycle without a pistol.
Link: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/8/1/s197
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199
196. Homicide is justifiable when committed by public officers and
those acting by their command in their aid and assistance, either--
1. In obedience to any judgment of a competent Court; or,
2. When necessarily committed in overcoming actual resistance to
the execution of some legal process, or in the discharge of any other
legal duty; or,
3. When necessarily committed in retaking felons who have been
rescued or have escaped, or when necessarily committed in arresting
persons charged with felony, and who are fleeing from justice or
resisting such arrest.
197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.
self control !!!
I think in many situations that older guy would have been pounded unconscious ! and its what he deserved for doing that
self control !!!
I think in many situations that older guy would have been pounded unconscious ! and its what he deserved for doing that
In FL, with stand your ground laws, that guy would be hanging out with Trayvon. If you attack me without provocation, I have to assume you mean the worst and I don't have time to play 20 questions to figure out why you are attacking me.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-15-15, 00:01
I can't imagine watching someone push my wife and just yelling "Stop". I guess he used a lot of restraint, but he should not have held back.
Eurodriver
07-15-15, 05:52
Put me in the "I don't want to shoot anyone unless it's absolutely necessary, and that encounter doesn't look like it was necessary" camp.
Props to the rider, seriously. Most groups I used to ride would have started shooting by the time he got to the bike.
Did the old guy end up in jail? I hope so.
polydeuces
07-15-15, 06:16
In FL, with stand your ground laws, that guy would be hanging out with Trayvon. If you attack me without provocation, I have to assume you mean the worst and I don't have time to play 20 questions to figure out why you are attacking me.
Amen!
Dude clearly had issues beyond whats going on here.
But he would have been toast the moment he touched my wife/girlfriend.
Not sure how many of you actually have been in a situation comparable like that, but i can tell you when you're actually in it vs on your keyboard in the comfort of you home taking it easy, plenty of time to think its a whole new ballgame.
Things are a bit different when shit gets real.
Simply put: if de-escalation is ineffective you WILL go down. How is anyone to know a knife, gun etc isnt about to be introduced, you going to do what-wait for it?
Allowing an assailant to get that close defies every self-defense rule. Unless of course no one is armed. As was the case here....
My guess is that if the rider pulled a weapon, the old guy would have backed away, wet himself and ran back to his car. I think the old guy was drunk.
A friend of mine recently sold his bike because of how crappy drivers on the road acted towards him. No one ever sees bike riders.
My guess is that if the rider pulled a weapon, the old guy would have backed away, wet himself and ran back to his car. I think the old guy was drunk.
A friend of mine recently sold his bike because of how crappy drivers on the road acted towards him. No one ever sees bike riders.
Old guy would have initiated the police call as well, and the ending could have been different until review of the tape was conducted. Guy on the bike did just fine.
I am 100% on the motorcyclists side but I am curious on how this one would play out. The only reason I say this is because in the process of taking this ass to the ground it appears he was choking the old man to some extent to restrain him. This video will be used as evidence and I would hate for this to get flipped on the motorcyclist. In Texas putting your hands or hand around someone's throat can qualify as attempted murder as apposed to using your forearm.
sevenhelmet
07-15-15, 08:27
Good on the motorcyclist. I'm impressed by how he handled the situation.
SomeOtherGuy
07-15-15, 08:29
A friend of mine recently sold his bike because of how crappy drivers on the road acted towards him. No one ever sees bike riders.
I rode motorcycles for a couple years and really loved it, but parked them and later sold them because of the danger from other drivers. I don't remember any road rage problems, just a ton of carelessness.
The old guy in the video looks to be maybe 5'9" and 180lbs. I am quite a bit larger than that but I'm not sure I could keep my touring bike upright if I had been shoved from the side at a stoplight like the rider here was (note: my touring bike had a 34" seat height, harder to hold up than a cruiser). If I got toppled over I would be pinned under a 600lb bike and an assailant could have killed or crippled me with fists, rocks, a knife, or any other weapon. Awful place to be. In hindsight, I think the rider here probably should have been more defensive than he was.
I'm curious to see the footage that led up to all this. Interesting that it has been omitted. I also noticed that it starts out with the motorcyclist looking back at the driver. Why would he be looking back if he genuinely felt he did nothing wrong? Unless, of course, he knew that he just pissed someone off behind him. For the record, I'm not condoning the old man's actions, and he got what he deserved, just that I feel there's more to the story here.
bystander in a car was behind gollum, too risky. Could use your head literally like this video :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dONyv-Cwkoo
Fighting with a full face helmet on - leave your helmet on with the face shield down so the other guy can't grab the face bar and use it to swing you around. Wearing an MX helmet, get it unstrapped so you can slip out of it. Open face or shorty/strap off - the guy can grab the lips and man handle you pretty easy - you go where the head goes.
It looked to me like maybe he bounced the assailants head on the ground a little when he put him down. Obviously the man had a medical issue because he stopped fighting and just laid there like a dead fish. The biker showed incredible restraint when he didn't just pound the shit out of the man when he had him down. Luckily the old dude wasn't carrying or he may have shot him.
I'd like to know what happened to get the man so mad at the biker. I thought I read the biker lane-split to the front of the intersection - which may or may not have been legal.
Bikers need to carefully remember, they are on the LOSING SIDE of any rage incident with a person in a 4000lb steel box, and tread CAREFULLY. I try to wave at anybody I pass - even that sometimes can prevent someone from getting too hot under the collar at you...otherwise, your only safety is to GET AWAY from the car...
sevenhelmet
07-15-15, 11:01
I'm curious to see the footage that led up to all this. Interesting that it has been omitted. I also noticed that it starts out with the motorcyclist looking back at the driver. Why would he be looking back if he genuinely felt he did nothing wrong? Unless, of course, he knew that he just pissed someone off behind him. For the record, I'm not condoning the old man's actions, and he got what he deserved, just that I feel there's more to the story here.
The aggressor might have honked his horn before getting out, causing the motorcyclist to turn around. A lot of drivers get mad about lane splitting, which I don't think is fair. I'm not a motorcycle rider, but I have had friends tell me that lane splitting can help keep the bike's engine cool in traffic, and gets the bikes out of the traffic flow faster, helping to reduce logjams at intersections. It's legal here in CA, apparently for that reason. I'm cool with bikers lane splitting personally, and give them room if I see them coming up behind me in traffic.
Regardless of the "rest of the story", getting out of a car and assaulting two people is a recipe for a bad day. The old man was incredibly lucky that the biker kept his cool.
I'm still trying to understand the road rage incident where the guy in the pickup who got helmet butted (with the accompaning bloated female) tried to run the motorcyclist off the road and then pickup driver acted self righteous when being in the wrong.
Huh?
I'm surprised the old guy didn't break his hand on the helmet. He punched the guy right in the chin (helmet) there is no give there.
The driver did the right thing for sure and showed a lot more restraint that most would ever have. I don't know if I could have been that calm, but I am also much smaller so I may have used my helmet as an impact tool at that point.
I'm still trying to understand the road rage incident where the guy in the pickup who got helmet butted (with the accompaning bloated female) tried to run the motorcyclist off the road and then pickup driver acted self righteous when being in the wrong.
Huh?
The back story says that the owner of the truck claimed the biker would make multiple passes in front of his house at high speed. The truck owner claimed it was dangerous to his children playing in the yard. So he and his cow of a wife/baby mama jumped in the truck and tired to kill the biker. Smart.
JBecker 72
07-15-15, 12:17
I'm curious to see the footage that led up to all this. Interesting that it has been omitted. I also noticed that it starts out with the motorcyclist looking back at the driver. Why would he be looking back if he genuinely felt he did nothing wrong? Unless, of course, he knew that he just pissed someone off behind him. For the record, I'm not condoning the old man's actions, and he got what he deserved, just that I feel there's more to the story here.
From what I understand the rider filtered through traffic at a light to get to the front of the line. Then the guy in the car began shouting and cursing the motorcyclist. At the beginning of the video you can see the guy kinda cocking his head out the window like he is giving him a piece of his mind. I assume the video is edited to the point right after the rider came to a stop. I'm also assuming this was an illegal move by the rider and why the guy got so pissed at him.
The guy on the bike handled it better than I would have. Not saying I'd shoot him, but I certainly would have given him a few solid punches with a set of Alpinestars gloves.
From what I understand the rider filtered through traffic at a light to get to the front of the line. Then the guy in the car began shouting and cursing the motorcyclist. At the beginning of the video you can see the guy kinda cocking his head out the window like he is giving him a piece of his mind. I assume the video is edited to the point right after the rider came to a stop. I'm also assuming this was an illegal move by the rider and why the guy got so pissed at him.
Gotcha, thanks.
Not saying I'd shoot him, but I certainly would have given him a few solid punches with a set of Alpinestars gloves.
Yeah, that'd leave a mark!
Put me in the "I don't want to shoot anyone unless it's absolutely necessary, and that encounter doesn't look like it was necessary" camp.
Props to the rider, seriously. Most groups I used to ride would have started shooting by the time he got to the bike.
I don't want to shoot anybody period. But I've seen way too many examples where it didn't "look necessary" until after somebody was already dead.
Not everyone who intends to kill you announces their intentions. Almost nobody states "I'm palming a knife." The guy was being aggressive and violent in a "hands on way", if you have the opportunity and ability to "fight him off" and want to run the risk that he isn't gonna pepper spray you then stomp on your throat you go ahead.
In the same situation, I'm going to move to eliminate the threat to myself and my wife as soon as possible. And my best scenario doesn't involve rolling around on the pavement with "crazy dude" which will probably evolve into a fight over who gets my gun first.
I'm going back to the Patrick Lavoie case where an aggressive motorist was shot and killed who never touched anyone at all. He was trying to open the car door of another motorist to confront him because he believed that motorist cut him off. The driver then shot him through the window and killed him.
On a motorcycle, you don't have a car door, you don't have a window. When somebody attacks you, and they are capable of inflicting serious injury or death, you have a lethal force situation on your hands. This is why you can't just go up to people and punch them because they are a crappy driver.
WickedWillis
07-15-15, 12:28
I don't agree with anything the motorist did in the video, but kudos to the motorcyclist for handling the situation like he did.
That being said, there is a large majority (especially in my area) of motorcyclists who need more training on their vehicles and a heavy dose of common sense. cutting off cars and trucks, not signaling via turn signal or hand gesture, excessive tailgating. All of this with no helmet law over here. I see almost daily in the Summer bikers getting themselves in bad and stupid situations.
JBecker 72
07-15-15, 12:35
I don't agree with anything the motorist did in the video, but kudos to the motorcyclist for handling the situation like he did.
That being said, there is a large majority (especially in my area) of motorcyclists who need more training on their vehicles and a heavy dose of common sense. cutting off cars and trucks, not signaling via turn signal or hand gesture, excessive tailgating. All of this with no helmet law over here. I see almost daily in the Summer bikers getting themselves in bad and stupid situations.
I have been on 2 wheels for 23 years now, mostly in the dirt, but I got my M endorsement on my license at about 18 years old (now 30 years old). I look at riding a lot like shooting. Just because you have a motorcycle/gun, doesn't make you a competent rider/shooter in my eyes. You need training, you need common sense, and you need to be careful. Both groups are routinely found to be lacking in both training and common sense.
A big problem with sport bikes is any kid with a summer job can afford a 150+ hp machine that is capable of super car speeds. This leads to a lot of the issues you described.
WickedWillis
07-15-15, 12:40
I have been on 2 wheels for 23 years now, mostly in the dirt, but I got my M endorsement on my license at about 18 years old (now 30 years old). I look at riding a lot like shooting. Just because you have a motorcycle/gun, doesn't make you a competent rider/shooter in my eyes. You need training, you need common sense, and you need to be careful. Both groups are routinely found to be lacking in both training and common sense.
A big problem with sport bikes is any kid with a summer job can afford a 150+ hp machine that is capable of super car speeds. This leads to a lot of the issues you described.
Very good points. Yeah you have to do a bare minimum course here to get your license here. Coupled with really only a good three months to ride, people just don't care. The egos and lack of respect for others here is pretty incredible.
SomeOtherGuy
07-15-15, 13:22
That being said, there is a large majority (especially in my area) of motorcyclists who need more training on their vehicles and a heavy dose of common sense. cutting off cars and trucks, not signaling via turn signal or hand gesture, excessive tailgating. All of this with no helmet law over here. I see almost daily in the Summer bikers getting themselves in bad and stupid situations.
Yeah, that's another problem. In my state it seems that 33% of motorcyclists ruin it for the other 67%. I say this as a former avid motorcyclist. The percentage of bad ones isn't 100%, but it's way too high. And I include the "loud pipes" idiot crowd in that proportion, since they seem quite fond of blasting their throttle when they're 10 feet away from my child's open window in stop and go traffic.
Of course, none of that excuses physical road rage, whether committed with fists or a vehicle. Get a plate number and call the cops. Sometimes it actually works. (From personal experience where I called in a "tweaker" who was soon arrested and charged with operating under the influence of illegal drugs. The police officer who arrested her called me to let me know the outcome and thanked me.) In any event, get away from the danger, unless your name is Max Rockatansky.
The aggressor might have honked his horn before getting out, causing the motorcyclist to turn around. A lot of drivers get mad about lane splitting, which I don't think is fair. I'm not a motorcycle rider, but I have had friends tell me that lane splitting can help keep the bike's engine cool in traffic, and gets the bikes out of the traffic flow faster, helping to reduce logjams at intersections. It's legal here in CA, apparently for that reason. I'm cool with bikers lane splitting personally, and give them room if I see them coming up behind me in traffic.
Regardless of the "rest of the story", getting out of a car and assaulting two people is a recipe for a bad day. The old man was incredibly lucky that the biker kept his cool.
I also give up riding due to the danger from other drivers. Just too much to lose. Every friend I had that rode had some sort of "other driver induced accident". Just a matter of time before it happened to me.
No way would I lane split at speed - just too much danger from swerves/inattention.
I would lane split at near idle at red lights when everyone was stopped. Most encourage this so as to put you at the front of the stopped vehicles - thus with a buffer behind you. Nothing like getting sandwiched between cars when idiot "doesn't see you stopped". When I was stopped I had one eye glued to my rear view just for this scenario. At the front of the line, I had way more escape routes than "Oh xxxx!"
sevenhelmet
07-15-15, 14:00
I also give up riding due to the danger from other drivers. Just too much to lose. Every friend I had that rode had some sort of "other driver induced accident". Just a matter of time before it happened to me.
No way would I lane split at speed - just too much danger from swerves/inattention.
I would lane split at near idle at red lights when everyone was stopped. Most encourage this so as to put you at the front of the stopped vehicles - thus with a buffer behind you. Nothing like getting sandwiched between cars when idiot "doesn't see you stopped". When I was stopped I had one eye glued to my rear view just for this scenario. At the front of the line, I had way more escape routes than "Oh xxxx!"
Most of the time I see lane splitting around here is in traffic which is stopped, or nearly so. I agree, at speed it's crazy. That type of rider exists, but I see a lot more motorcycle riders who are careful than not.
Apricotshot
07-15-15, 14:11
Cruising around on my Victory bagger I don't really have many issues. I ride like people cannot see me and it works so far. I assume people are going to not pay attention. As far as this situation the driver would have probably got a few fists to the face probably if it were me. I know there is a very good chance if I were pushed hard enough my 800 pound bike might have fell over on me, changing the situation entirely from my perspective.
The bald headed dude with the white t-shirt (the one everyone kept referring to as the old guy) looked really weird after he was put down. Look at his eyes and his mouth, eyes were all wide and was staring into infinity, mouth was moving but wasn't making any sense. He might have gotten his head smacked against the road when he went down. A grown man shouldn't be going on in public in a floppy nylon shorts anyway, that's embarrassing.
ForTehNguyen
07-15-15, 16:52
I'm still trying to understand the road rage incident where the guy in the pickup who got helmet butted (with the accompaning bloated female) tried to run the motorcyclist off the road and then pickup driver acted self righteous when being in the wrong.
Huh?
guy drove by with half of his truck in the opposing lane oncoming with a motorcycle, not seeing any justification for this
Moose-Knuckle
07-15-15, 16:52
As usual we don't have all the facts and only edited video of a particular portition of the incident.
Going off of what I saw in the linked vid, the rider did not handle it well at all. As soon as the old/drunk/crazy/whatever dude threw the first punch his arm should have been property of the rider and snapped/dislocated right there, period. But instead the rider allowed the attacker to retreat only to put hands on his woman. This is FUBAR. Had the attacker had a knife/gun in his waistband the rider and his girl would have been toast. As soon as he saw the driver get out of his car and head towards him he should have dismounted the bike and closed with the threat. His "handling the situation with calm" is more like he was scared and didn't know what the **** to do.
ForTehNguyen
07-15-15, 16:54
according to youtube description
Driver of the car apparently broke his ankle when he went to the ground, which is why I'm told he did not go to jail. He has multiple charges against him including endangerment, threatening, and assault. Myself and the police officers I spoke with clearly believe he was under the influence of something. Court date pending.
Moose-Knuckle
07-15-15, 16:54
The bald headed dude with the white t-shirt (the one everyone kept referring to as the old guy) looked really weird after he was put down. Look at his eyes and his mouth, eyes were all wide and was staring into infinity, mouth was moving but wasn't making any sense. He might have gotten his head smacked against the road when he went down. A grown man shouldn't be going on in public in a floppy nylon shorts anyway, that's embarrassing.
Yeah The People of Wal-Mart Force is strong within him . . .
JBecker 72
07-15-15, 16:55
I love when a story has a happy ending ^
NCPatrolAR
07-15-15, 17:20
I don't see anything in the OP that would warrant the use of deadly force
I don't see anything in the OP that would warrant the use of deadly force
How about this one?
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-09-16/news/fl-pompano-fatal-shooting-20100915_1_man-shot-apparent-road-rage-incident-drunken-driver
Put me in the "I don't want to shoot anyone unless it's absolutely necessary, and that encounter doesn't look like it was necessary" camp.
Ditto!
Biker handled that as well as anyone could have, IMO. At the end of the day, old guy ends up in the hospital and will most definitely get charged with a bunch of somethings, biker and g/f walk away. No guns pulled, no one (including the dozens of people at the intersection) get shot or hurt, no lawyers, no trials, none of that.
Hind-sight is 20/20 and all, and we have that luxury now, but the biker didn't pull a gun and didn't shoot. Everything worked out well in the end, so not shooting was the right choice in this matter. However, had he I wouldn't have blamed him.
He did push the g/f which would've put me into rage mode, but the back of his head got to meet the business end of the concrete for that. Made him look like Arnie from Total Recall haha
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_er_Nmxnv4TM/TT8XdWjlvrI/AAAAAAAAAs8/seM294wxfko/s1600/arnold+on+mars.jpg
NCPatrolAR
07-15-15, 18:28
How about this one?
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-09-16/news/fl-pompano-fatal-shooting-20100915_1_man-shot-apparent-road-rage-incident-drunken-driver
Not from what was written; though it seems it was justified under FL law
Not from what was written; though it seems it was justified under FL law
FL has a different set of rules. I'm actually fine with them. Don't attack people and you don't get shot.
I have told my wife that if I am ever arrested it will almost assuredly be for a traffic-related incident. I have NO tolerance for assholes on the road (this might put me in the dreaded "road rage" category but I am unapologetic about it). Common courtesy is lost on most individuals. Everyone automatically assumes that the road-rager is such a bad guy. NO ONE ever asks "What took place that the guy got pissed in the first place?" Nope, you're automatically a road-raging asshole. Forget the stupid/arrogant/clueless POS who was driving slow in the left lane or 10 mph under the limit on a single-lane no-pass road. Naw, they're okay, you have no right to expect to get where the f**k you're going in a timely fashion. Not advocating shooting or beating the idiot but a "You're number one" sign and a few choice words as you finally pass are certainly gonna happen. I never advocate getting out swinging.
All that said, the dude on the bike was MUCH more even-tempered than I am. I would've drilled that dude's head at least once into the concrete, especially when he gave that "crazy" caged animal look.....think you're a whacky dude do ya? You wanna see crazy? WHAM!.
Gollem for sure...that was freaky!
NCPatrolAR
07-15-15, 20:34
FL has a different set of rules. I'm actually fine with them. Don't attack people and you don't get shot.
Rules aren't really that much different than NC's. Still I'm not looking for an excuse to shoot someone so even though the state might say that lethal force is ok; I'm going to opt for the solution that is best for the situation. Way too many people have the gun as their only option and that's simply setting yourself up for failure
I'm like 95 percent sure that lane splitting is legal in Az.
Rules aren't really that much different than NC's. Still I'm not looking for an excuse to shoot someone so even though the state might say that lethal force is ok; I'm going to opt for the solution that is best for the situation. Way too many people have the gun as their only option and that's simply setting yourself up for failure
So we are clear, I'm also not looking for an excuse to shoot somebody. Besides automatically being branded a George Zimmerman regardless of the facts, I don't want to deal with all the related issues legal and otherwise.
But at the same time, if somebody attacks me without provocation, I'm really not going to roll around on the ground with them. That is a great way for bad people to end up with my gun. Now obviously if I "believe" I can easily control the situation, I'm not gonna shoot some granny that took a swipe at me with a newspaper or anything like that.
But if I was dealing with crazy dude in the video and I didn't do anything wrong and he attacked me and my wife because he didn't like the way I was driving...well he might not make it home ok. I'd rather NOT shoot him, but I'm gonna take that one over a lot of other potential outcomes.
I'm like 95 percent sure that lane splitting is legal in Az.
It's absolutely 100% a jackass move. I've had people do it to me on the interstate when I was doing about 80mph and they were doing closer to 100mph. Also caused me to wreck a handful of times because sport bikes don't give you a ton of warning until they are between you and the car next to you and 100% of the time I'm the guy they cut off because I always leave room in front of me on the interstate.
I absolutely, positively DESPISE these people. And if there were red lights on the interstate I'd probably have a few choice words for them if they were stopped in front of me. What I would not do is get out of my car to start some shit, if it's really that bad I'm calling the state troopers with a license plate, and I'm sure as hell not going to just start swinging. Because if I did, at that point "I" become the attacker and the guy who is the problem.
Also I am carrying a gun and that is another reason I can't just get out of my car and start taking pokes at peoples faces. Now I'm an "armed attacker" and I just crossed the lethal force threshold for a lot of people...and I really don't want to be shot because somebody else can't drive responsibly or with courtesy.
It's absolutely 100% a jackass move. I've had people do it to me on the interstate when I was doing about 80mph and they were doing closer to 100mph. Also caused me to wreck a handful of times because sport bikes don't give you a ton of warning until they are between you and the car next to you and 100% of the time I'm the guy they cut off because I always leave room in front of me on the interstate.
I absolutely, positively DESPISE these people. And if there were red lights on the interstate I'd probably have a few choice words for them if they were stopped in front of me. What I would not do is get out of my car to start some shit, if it's really that bad I'm calling the state troopers with a license plate, and I'm sure as hell not going to just start swinging. Because if I did, at that point "I" become the attacker and the guy who is the problem.
Also I am carrying a gun and that is another reason I can't just get out of my car and start taking pokes at peoples faces. Now I'm an "armed attacker" and I just crossed the lethal force threshold for a lot of people...and I really don't want to be shot because somebody else can't drive responsibly or with courtesy.
There's s big difference between splitting lanes at 100 mph and moving to the front of the line at a red light. I've investigated a few wrecks were motorcyclists at red lights were rest ended and I have zero problem with them cutting up to the front.
It's absolutely 100% a jackass move. I've had people do it to me on the interstate when I was doing about 80mph and they were doing closer to 100mph. Also caused me to wreck a handful of times because sport bikes don't give you a ton of warning until they are between you and the car next to you and 100% of the time I'm the guy they cut off because I always leave room in front of me on the interstate.
I absolutely, positively DESPISE these people. And if there were red lights on the interstate I'd probably have a few choice words for them if they were stopped in front of me. What I would not do is get out of my car to start some shit, if it's really that bad I'm calling the state troopers with a license plate, and I'm sure as hell not going to just start swinging. Because if I did, at that point "I" become the attacker and the guy who is the problem.
Also I am carrying a gun and that is another reason I can't just get out of my car and start taking pokes at peoples faces. Now I'm an "armed attacker" and I just crossed the lethal force threshold for a lot of people...and I really don't want to be shot because somebody else can't drive responsibly or with courtesy.
There's s big difference between splitting lanes at 100 mph and moving to the front of the line at a red light. I've investigated a few wrecks were motorcyclists at red lights were rest ended and I have zero problem with them cutting up to the front.
Averageman
07-16-15, 02:28
Gollem for sure...that was freaky!
I kept waiting for him to say "My Precious!"
There's s big difference between splitting lanes at 100 mph and moving to the front of the line at a red light. I've investigated a few wrecks were motorcyclists at red lights were rest ended and I have zero problem with them cutting up to the front.
I have a little problem with it. I've had them nail my side mirror and look at me like it's my fault. One time I almost opened a door into a guy I didn't see coming up and again he acted like it was my fault. I was just grabbing something out of the back since we were at a new red light. Generally it's a dick move but doesn't warrant any kind of physical confrontation. Rolling by and informing them their actions are "dickish" is about all that is required.
Another problem I had was while sitting a a light I decided to move one lane over and have the opportunity to move up about 8 car lengths. Unknown to me a kid on a street bike had the same idea and basically was rolling right behind the drivers side rear in a blind spot not seen by my side or rear view window. If he would have simply followed me in it would have been nothing, but he decided he wanted to be in front of me and as soon as I first saw him in my side mirror he was already sliding past me maybe 12" off of my side and doing about 45mph compared to my 25mph. In addition to almost giving me a heart attack, I damn near ran him over and it took everything I had to swing back to the right and not nail the car I was trying to pass on the left.
When he arrived at the light, with him now in front of me, I popped my head out the window and said "Hey that was pretty effed up and dangerous", to which I received the "You're #1 gesture." I briefly contemplated pushing him out into the cross traffic as a mental exercise to amuse myself but that was about it.
Averageman
07-16-15, 03:41
I've been riding a couple of decades. I've taken about 18 months off now, not because the thrill is gone, but because of other drivers.
I've started riding again lately, but I've pretty much changed my entire outlook on when and where I will ride. This change in my riding is purely defensive in nature, instead of a daily commuter I've relegated my riding to after work and weekends when most folks aren't on the roads I choose to use.
It's a sad commentary on life when you watch that video and come to understand that although most of the idiots on the road wont exit their vehicle for a fight, most are just that angry about 10% of the time.
Had he used his car in traffic to get his justice, more than likely he wouldn't have even been charged.
Eurodriver
07-16-15, 07:22
Had he used his car in traffic to get his justice, more than likely he wouldn't have even been charged.
This is the sad truth. As a biker, your best course of action is to just get away.
Cager: "Oops! I didn't see him!"
Cop: "Alright. Here's a careless driving ticket! Try to watch out next time so I don't have to do all this paperwork bro!"
Meanwhile the biker is laying in pieces in the middle of the road having been run over...
JBecker 72
07-16-15, 07:41
I have a little problem with it. I've had them nail my side mirror and look at me like it's my fault. One time I almost opened a door into a guy I didn't see coming up and again he acted like it was my fault. I was just grabbing something out of the back since we were at a new red light. Generally it's a dick move but doesn't warrant any kind of physical confrontation. Rolling by and informing them their actions are "dickish" is about all that is required.
Another problem I had was while sitting a a light I decided to move one lane over and have the opportunity to move up about 8 car lengths. Unknown to me a kid on a street bike had the same idea and basically was rolling right behind the drivers side rear in a blind spot not seen by my side or rear view window. If he would have simply followed me in it would have been nothing, but he decided he wanted to be in front of me and as soon as I first saw him in my side mirror he was already sliding past me maybe 12" off of my side and doing about 45mph compared to my 25mph. In addition to almost giving me a heart attack, I damn near ran him over and it took everything I had to swing back to the right and not nail the car I was trying to pass on the left.
When he arrived at the light, with him now in front of me, I popped my head out the window and said "Hey that was pretty effed up and dangerous", to which I received the "You're #1 gesture." I briefly contemplated pushing him out into the cross traffic as a mental exercise to amuse myself but that was about it.
It's gonna take some conditioning all around to make filtering work for everyone, but it needs to happen nation wide. There are many studies showing its benefits for safety of riders. When done right, there is nothing dickish about it. Unfortunately everyone has the image of a reckless rider weaving through traffic and acting like a jackass when they think about lane sharing. But when done right it's very safe and a better alternative to riders than getting rear ended because some idiot was sending a tweet instead of paying attention.
Alex V,
Thank you for the back story.
If true, I rather sympathize with the hillbilly and his tubby wife, but they were in the wrong in trying to run the motorcyclist off the road and later heaving a bottle at him.
I had the same thing happen to me while out bicycle riding, that is, without provocation though, a person, couldn't tell if it was a man or woman, came at me head on. I was forced to take the ditch, but stayed upright. For all I know, it wasn't intentional, but it scared the hell out of me.
But, had it been intentional, I carry a loaded Glock 19, a loaded spare magazine, pepper spray, and a fixed blade knife, so I had some backup if they decided to come back for me...
Averageman
07-16-15, 10:02
The back story says that the owner of the truck claimed the biker would make multiple passes in front of his house at high speed. The truck owner claimed it was dangerous to his children playing in the yard. So he and his cow of a wife/baby mama jumped in the truck and tired to kill the biker. Smart.
Never underestimate the mind killing effects of a life gone really bad.
You knock up your High School Sweetheart, take a minimum wage job for the rest of your life to feed your ever growing brood of kids. Your entertainment is watching her ever broadening back side block the TV every time she enters the room and the thrill of the week was going to Wal Mart for cheap beer and even more pampers.
So when your leg is that far down in the trap, why not play chicken with some guy who you resent for not being in the same crappy life you're caught in?
Makes sense in some sort of trailer park, food stamp, canned beer way.
I see these poor slobs when I go to Walmart.
And those are just the employees...
SomeOtherGuy
07-16-15, 11:14
Re: lane splitting. If it's legal in your state, understand that and tolerate it like any other legal driving. If it's not legal, be aware of that and call the lane-splitting bikers whatever you want, but leave it at that. Also 100% agreement on the difference between lane splitting at 10mph in heavy traffic or at a stoplight vs. dumbass moves at high speeds.
Never underestimate the mind killing effects of a life gone really bad.
You knock up your High School Sweetheart, take a minimum wage job for the rest of your life to feed your ever growing brood of kids. Your entertainment is watching her ever broadening back side block the TV every time she enters the room and the thrill of the week was going to Wal Mart for cheap beer and even more pampers.
So when your leg is that far down in the trap, why not play chicken with some guy who you resent for not being in the same crappy life you're caught in?
Makes sense in some sort of trailer park, food stamp, canned beer way.
Never thought of it that way, but now that it's explained like that, I can see it. Another reason to just avoid those people as much as you can.
It's gonna take some conditioning all around to make filtering work for everyone, but it needs to happen nation wide. There are many studies showing its benefits for safety of riders. When done right, there is nothing dickish about it. Unfortunately everyone has the image of a reckless rider weaving through traffic and acting like a jackass when they think about lane sharing. But when done right it's very safe and a better alternative to riders than getting rear ended because some idiot was sending a tweet instead of paying attention.
I'll do this as politely as I can.
I don't want to share my lane, I'm in it. It's difficult enough to maintain the safety of the lane I'm in with other cars that want to cut me off and things like that. I'm in line behind the guy in front of me, you are in line behind me, wait your turn. If I had a motorcycle in front of me, I wouldn't try and move up by sharing HIS lane, it's HIS and I'm behind him.
I don't care if I'm behind a single line of a dozen motorcycles, I'm behind them. You don't want me coming up the share YOUR lane with my car, I don't want you coming up to share my lane with your bike.
JBecker 72
07-16-15, 12:33
I'll do this as politely as I can.
I don't want to share my lane, I'm in it. It's difficult enough to maintain the safety of the lane I'm in with other cars that want to cut me off and things like that. I'm in line behind the guy in front of me, you are in line behind me, wait your turn. If I had a motorcycle in front of me, I wouldn't try and move up by sharing HIS lane, it's HIS and I'm behind him.
I don't care if I'm behind a single line of a dozen motorcycles, I'm behind them. You don't want me coming up the share YOUR lane with my car, I don't want you coming up to share my lane with your bike.
So you don't pass bicycles on the side of the road? You follow behind them at 12 mph until you are in a designated passing zone?
The reason for motorcycles lane sharing is for their safety. The CHP and UC Berkeley have conducted a long review of motorcycle accidents and their conclusion is lane sharing is better for everyone and drastically reduces neck and head injury as well as fatalities.
We all need to share the road. Pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists, drivers, and truckers.
So you don't pass bicycles on the side of the road? You follow behind them at 12 mph until you are in a designated passing zone?
The reason for motorcycles lane sharing is for their safety. The CHP and UC Berkeley have conducted a long review of motorcycle accidents and their conclusion is lane sharing is better for everyone and drastically reduces neck and head injury as well as fatalities.
We all need to share the road. Pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists, drivers, and truckers.
We actually have bike lanes so no.
But IF I had a 10 speed going 10 mph in front of me I WOULD NOT share his lane, I would PASS him when the next lane became clear. If on a two lane street I would wait until the oncoming traffic was clear. I would NEVER share a lane with a 10 speed or motorcycle and crowd them out of their own lane.
THEY ARE IN THE LANE.
And far be it from me to dispute those studies, but the only time I have almost hit bikers is when they unexpectedly ended up next to me in my lane or overtook me and cut me off without warning.
If traffic is MOVING it's a dangerous and jackass stunt that gives me little or no warning to accommodate them. If we are at a light, there is no excuse. I'm not moving, I'm not going to hit them.
To me motorcycles are like mini coopers. They are usually stupid and ridiculous and I sometimes question the faculties of those who drive them BUT they have their own lane and I respect it as much as a 4x4 pickup. I don't try to share their lane with them, I don't want them sharing my lane with me. It's mine when I am in it just as much as it is theirs when they are in it.
I will obviously make allowances for two bikes who wish to share a lane together, so long as it's consensual it's not my business. Sort of like homosexuality.
JBecker 72
07-16-15, 13:09
Again, most people don't understand what legal lane sharing is. They just base their opinion off the reckless few who drive like there is no tomorrow.
Motorcycle lane sharing works throughout Europe, Australia, and Asia as well as California. I hope it's implemented nationwide as it will save lives.
I've been rear ended on a motorcycle BTW and it was a horrible experience.
Averageman
07-16-15, 13:13
Many fail to realize the practical aspects of splitting lanes in bumper to bumper stop and go 20 mph or less traffic.
Chances are the bike has an air cooled engine, it's going to react much different that an automobile and for the most part especially here in Tx you very well could damage the engine as the temperatures rise without air flowing around it.
Also as frustration levels rise and minds begin to wander you're better off getting the hell out of the way.
Again, most people don't understand what legal lane sharing is. They just base their opinion off the reckless few who drive like there is no tomorrow.
Motorcycle lane sharing works throughout Europe, Australia, and Asia as well as California. I hope it's implemented nationwide as it will save lives.
I've been rear ended on a motorcycle BTW and it was a horrible experience.
Seems I live in the right state.
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/rights/state-laws.aspx?stateid=9
Lane Splitting
Not authorized; Florida Statutes, 316.209 (2), (3); The operator of a motorcycle shall not overtake and pass in the same lane occupied by the vehicle being overtaken. No person shall operate a motorcycle between lanes of traffic or between adjacent lines or rows of vehicles.
Lots of things work in Europe that would never work here. If he had an autobahn almost nobody could responsibly use it. The responsible people would quickly be killed off by the morons.
Many fail to realize the practical aspects of splitting lanes in bumper to bumper stop and go 20 mph or less traffic.
Chances are the bike has an air cooled engine, it's going to react much different that an automobile and for the most part especially here in Tx you very well could damage the engine as the temperatures rise without air flowing around it.
Also as frustration levels rise and minds begin to wander you're better off getting the hell out of the way.
Seems like it's is still not permitted despite any benefits to the rider.
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/rights/State-Laws.aspx?stateid=43
Lane Splitting
Not authorized
JBecker 72
07-16-15, 13:45
I'm pretty sure CA is the only one that allows it currently. One of the very few things they get right.
I've just about quit riding on the street because it's just gotten too scary...I now get my fix on the racetrack... :)
Averageman
07-17-15, 09:04
Talk about timing.
We're going through some changes here in Texas with vehicle registration and safety inspections. I had my bike inspected yesterday and while leaving the shop I was nearly taken out by someone doing a "Right on Red" turn. Yes, they had a cell phone stuck in their ear.
eightmillimeter
07-17-15, 10:37
http://youtu.be/oqRcZR70Zhc
Now I'm not always a nutnfancy fan but he did a overview of the lane splitting subject a while back
WickedWillis
07-17-15, 10:44
http://youtu.be/oqRcZR70Zhc
Now I'm not always a nutnfancy fan but he did a overview of the lane splitting subject a while back
He does do a good job on knife, and Motorcycle videos though in my humble opinion.
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