View Full Version : "Large" flite control 00 buck pattern
Is an almost whole hand sized pattern with an improved cylinder remchoke(palm size with carlson modified) at 5-7 yards with reduced recoil federal personal defense 9 pellet 00 buck an indicator the flite control wad is getting stripped in the barrel(20" remington rifle sight cut for chokes, all factory.)
Same barrel with ic choke gives palm sized patterns at the same distance with estate 9 pellet reduced recoil & remington managed recoil 8 pellet loads and slightly smaller patterns when the modified tube is installed.
plouffedaddy
07-18-15, 20:44
Odd. Patterned a 18'' XCS at 25 yards today with this load and it was 9''
I'd guess at 5 to 7 yards your are patterning on cardboard. At that range the wad should probably be most of the group, most of the time you won't be able to count 9 individual pellets. At 15 yards on metal the group ought to be around fist sized to a little larger - all 9 should be on the head of a pepper popper. We actually had to change our basic shotgun course when the flight control wads were introduced - too many folks were shooting 100's while making fundamental gun mounting errors, the patterns were that tight.
Yeah I was expecting the pattern to be wad size at that distance based on the reviews I had seen, but no luck there. Shooting on paper with distinct separate pellet hits in addition to the hole made by the wad.
The Remington bore requires more effort pushing/pulling when cleaning than my Mossberg does so beginning to wonder if the 870 bore is just super tight and stripping the wads off. Will have to try the Federal loads in the 500 barrel to verify the shells aren't the issue.
On the upside, the 870 barrel is great with slugs and has good patterns with regular low recoil buckshot so all is not a loss I guess.
Bluedreaux
08-09-15, 00:23
In nearly all of the 870s I've tested you have to get to at least 10 yards before the shot is really distinguishable from the wad. It's essentially one hole until you get to ten yards.
Beat Trash
08-09-15, 17:27
This is our issued duty round for shotguns. At 5-7 yds, it's very hard to tell the difference between OO buck and slug, using issued 870's with cylinder bore chokes.
We have over 1,000 officers to qualify with shotgun, using about 20 range guns to do so. No signs of the type of patterns you are describing with cylinder bore 18" Remington's. Is it possible that some part of your screw in choke is catching on the wad and stripping it?
Polymerhead
08-09-15, 18:44
Funny that I ran across this thread - just shot a bunch of this on Friday. Here's 5 rounds at a measured 7 yards. The small hole to the right is not a buckshot hole - not sure what happened there, I must have shot a single 22 round through it on a previous trip. Anyway - you can see the lack of separation in the pattern. Looks like a slug at this distance.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/Polymerhead/9C890231-6A19-457A-8460-8F08BA05602C_zpsmvmd1qyh.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/Polymerhead/media/9C890231-6A19-457A-8460-8F08BA05602C_zpsmvmd1qyh.jpg.html)
Shots are out of an 18" cylinder bore Mossberg 500 barrel.
Funny that I ran across this thread - just shot a bunch of this on Friday. Here's 5 rounds at a measured 7 yards. The small hole to the right is not a buckshot hole - not sure what happened there, I must have shot a single 22 round through it on a previous trip. Anyway - you can see the lack of separation in the pattern. Looks like a slug at this distance.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/Polymerhead/9C890231-6A19-457A-8460-8F08BA05602C_zpsmvmd1qyh.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/Polymerhead/media/9C890231-6A19-457A-8460-8F08BA05602C_zpsmvmd1qyh.jpg.html)
Shots are out of an 18" cylinder bore Mossberg 500 barrel.
If you think you might be loosing your wad in the barrel or sooner that you should I would try polishing the bore. it cant hurt and in the end the gun will be WAY easier to clean anyway. It made a difference in my Mossberg, But I just did it to make it easier to clean. in theory it "Could" work.
EDIT: opps, didnt mean to quote you.
Tried them in an 18.5" 500 with IC Choke and got the wad size pattern so apparently the 870 slug barrel is the issue.
Somewhat strange, both shotguns did about the same with Remington managed recoil 8 pellet buckshot. The Mossberg even patterned it the same as the flute control at 15 yards.
The 870 barrel is mirror bright(much shinier than the 500 actually) and both get a mild scotch brite on a dowel chucked in a drill after shooting.
For whatever reason, the bore on the 870 is tighter. Both feel the same pulling a patch through their chambers, but past that point the 870 takes a lot more effort to pull.
Tried them in an 18.5" 500 with IC Choke and got the wad size pattern so apparently the 870 slug barrel is the issue.
Somewhat strange, both shotguns did about the same with Remington managed recoil 8 pellet buckshot. The Mossberg even patterned it the same as the flute control at 15 yards.
The 870 barrel is mirror bright(much shinier than the 500 actually) and both get a mild scotch brite on a dowel chucked in a drill after shooting.
For whatever reason, the bore on the 870 is tighter. Both feel the same pulling a patch through their chambers, but past that point the 870 takes a lot more effort to pull.
In that case, as much of a PITA it is going to be I might consider calling the manufacturer and see if they will fix it.that is if it is in warranty. good luck whatever you decided to do.
This is our issued duty round for shotguns. At 5-7 yds, it's very hard to tell the difference between OO buck and slug, using issued 870's with cylinder bore chokes.
We have over 1,000 officers to qualify with shotgun, using about 20 range guns to do so. No signs of the type of patterns you are describing with cylinder bore 18" Remington's. Is it possible that some part of your screw in choke is catching on the wad and stripping it?
Wondered about that and thought the thread could have been cut off center, but I can feel that the "inlet" end of the choke wasn't overlapping in to the "outlet" end of the bore. I don't think it is this particular ic tube since nothing looks/feels wrong and the patterns are consistent with various loads. Doesn't really feel like the choke gets tighter when the patch passes in to it when cleaning either.
KiloSierra
08-17-15, 19:07
Some shotguns just don't like the flight control wads. None of the shotguns I used to have shot them any better then they shot the Winchester Super X/Mil-Spec type 00 buck rounds but shot regular Remington, Winchester and Federal reduced recoil in a pattern just over an inch at seven yards.
Got some new shotguns now. Need to find some flight control was rounds and try them again.
Some shotguns just don't like the flight control wads. None of the shotguns I used to have shot them any better then they shot the Winchester Super X/Mil-Spec type 00 buck rounds but shot regular Remington, Winchester and Federal reduced recoil in a pattern just over an inch at seven yards.
Got some new shotguns now. Need to find some flight control was rounds and try them again.
And that is why I shoot different loads in different guns, pistols, rifles and shotguns, 1% of guns don't like certain loads or the load doesn't like the gun.
But I have shot #1B and 00 out of both cylinder bore and with choke tubes and all have performed amazingly well. The best pattern I get is from #1B a 28" barrel with screw in mod choke out of a Beretta 390/300.
I get fist sized patterns at 10 yards out of my 590. It's my go-to load for this gun.
NickySantoro
08-18-15, 09:55
Since the barrel seems to function acceptably with other ammo, tightness in the bore not withstanding, I wonder if it may be a bad batch of ammo.
Since the barrel seems to function acceptably with other ammo, tightness in the bore not withstanding, I wonder if it may be a bad batch of ammo.
Had that question to and shells from the same box in my Mossberg with ic choke screwed in gave the wad size groups at 10 yards most reviews indicate.
ad_infinitum
10-14-15, 07:28
Yeah I was expecting the pattern to be wad size at that distance based on the reviews I had seen, but no luck there. Shooting on paper with distinct separate pellet hits in addition to the hole made by the wad.
The Remington bore requires more effort pushing/pulling when cleaning than my Mossberg does so beginning to wonder if the 870 bore is just super tight and stripping the wads off. Will have to try the Federal loads in the 500 barrel to verify the shells aren't the issue.
On the upside, the 870 barrel is great with slugs and has good patterns with regular low recoil buckshot so all is not a loss I guess.
That is exactly what's happening. At that range you should be getting patterns the size of the silver dollar. I tried full choke and it strips the wad. You want no choke at all. Choke works against FCW.
I get maybe 12-15" at 25 meters. I have "cylinder bore" choke. It's about half the size of non-FCW loads. Cheap 00B from Wally World have patterns that disintegrate at about 25m, with some pellets not even making it to paper.
From my experience FC behaves differently with IC vs. C chokes. IC "opens up" the shot grouping. There is a youtube video about it.
A lot of help I am....
From my experience FC behaves differently with IC vs. C chokes. IC "opens up" the shot grouping. There is a youtube video about it.
A lot of help I am....
I think I watched the video too and was wondering about the reviewer calling it a cylinder bore since that is not exactly a common screw in choke and is really unusual for a fixed choke versus IC screw in tubes and fixed barrels.
I replaced my IC choke for a C choke and had the same results as the video
Just thinking to myself why someone would want such a tight pattern out of what are arguably defense shotguns? I would prefer a little spread at 7 yds to help with getting a hit in a really terrible situation of trying to defend yourself.
To the OP, i guess i would want that fixed as well as it isn't performing as expected. However as i said before, why not use std wad buck and be happy with a palm or hand sized pattern? You are not deer hunting at 40yds with this gun are you? I think flight control would be great for hunting when a sighted and controlled shot is made at a deer and you want as tight as possible pattern at 40-50 yds.
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Just thinking to myself why someone would want such a tight pattern out of what are arguably defense shotguns? I would prefer a little spread at 7 yds to help with getting a hit in a really terrible situation of trying to defend yourself.
The idea is to increase the effective range of the shotgun by tightening the pattern. With the old buckshot generally beyond about 18 yards you had to start worrying about pellets missing a torso sized target because of pattern spread. The flight control just about doubled that distance. Beyond 25-30 yards the concern becomes that a heavy jacket, especially a leather jacket, can become buckshot armor.
Depending on how you look at it, tightening the pattern at longer ranges comes with the added benefit or limitation of really tight patterns close in. I consider it a benefit to be able to face shoot someone across any room in my house and not worry about pellets missing.
At 7 yards you are delivering 465grains into an area not much larger than the bore diameter - potentially with the added benefit of multiple wound channels as the pellets separate.
The shotgun really isn't a point and shoot area weapon, especially with today's shells.
Unless you are required to hunt deer with buckshot, at 40 - 50 yards a slug is more humane as there is less likelihood of the deer running off and dying a lingering death. Pellets bleed off a lot of energy by the time they reach that range.
Slug(which it shoots great) only here for deer hunting with a shotgun and so far have stuck with rifle for deer.
Just prefer the tighter pattern for personal defense for the reasons 26inf mentioned and was wondering what the issue was with my Remington barrel. Over 10 yards it does spread, and at that point there isn't a huge difference in pattern between the federal and estate & Remington low recoil buck I have.
Another reason for my curiosity is that Federal also makes turkey loads with flite control wads so I was trying to determine if this barrel could be used for that without swapping in my turkey choke.
video of a guy using the federal flite control buck on a mule deer at 55yards. Not as good as a rifle/slug usually, but probably no worse than archery so a decent option for buckshot only. I would not want to use old school buck for this if any other options were available.
https://youtu.be/41wBr7-QQlI
I agree jason, it seems something is amise with your barrel. I too would think the flight control should be better. Maybe too tight a bore, to abrupt of the forcing cone, a burr on the choke insert(if it has changeable choke inserts)
As for defense, i will stick to normal spread pattern as longest shot is maybe 7 yds. I would not chase outside where range opens up, and wouldn't hold up in court to shoot at someone leaving that isn't a threat anymore. And i wouldn't engage in that situation anyways. Again, just my opinion only and i don't want to suggest what someone else does in their situations. I was just curious of your position on need of tight patterns.
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I agree jason, it seems something is amise with your barrel. I too would think the flight control should be better. Maybe too tight a bore, to abrupt of the forcing cone, a burr on the choke insert(if it has changeable choke inserts)
As for defense, i will stick to normal spread pattern as longest shot is maybe 7 yds. I would not chase outside where range opens up, and wouldn't hold up in court to shoot at someone leaving that isn't a threat anymore. And i wouldn't engage in that situation anyways. Again, just my opinion only and i don't want to suggest what someone else does in their situations. I was just curious of your position on need of tight patterns.
My opinion was overall from a LE training and usage perspective. However, the only reason I would hesitate to shoot someone holding a family member hostage across any room in my house is my concern about the actual wad striking the family member - not the pattern.
ad_infinitum
10-17-15, 21:51
video of a guy using the federal flite control buck on a mule deer at 55yards. Not as good as a rifle/slug usually, but probably no worse than archery so a decent option for buckshot only. I would not want to use old school buck for this if any other options were available.
https://youtu.be/41wBr7-QQlI
+1 "Normal" non-FCW buckshot patterns fall apart at 25 meters... FCW extends the range to double that as the video demonstrates.
GrandPooba
10-17-15, 21:58
Last year I tested some 9 pellet flite control that patterned as bad as some generic buckshot at 10 yards. Must have been a bad batch? I'm primarily using the no1 flite control load these days
If flite control ain't working out of your barrel, try the Remington 8-pellet low recoil 00 buck load. In my experience it patterns fantastically.
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Last year I tested some 9 pellet flite control that patterned as bad as some generic buckshot at 10 yards. Must have been a bad batch? I'm primarily using the no1 flite control load these days
If flite control ain't working out of your barrel, try the Remington 8-pellet low recoil 00 buck load. In my experience it patterns fantastically.
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Yeah the 8 pellet(and old Estate "SWAT" low recoil 9 pellet) both give Red Bull/Coke can diameter patterns out to 10 yards and slightly beyond so at 10 yards plus there isn't a lot of difference between the Remington & Estate loads compared to a properly working FCW beyond 10 yards. That coupled with the barrel/choke combo accuracy on slugs definitely makes for a positive overall.
I thought I might have got a bad batch of FCW also, but when I took my Mossberg + IC choke along on a follow up trip I got a roughly slug size pattern out to 10 yards so the Remington barrel(and I suspect the barrel tightness more than the IC choke) seems to be the wad stripper since there was not a large difference in pattern change even when screwing in a modified Remchoke.
Got a Carlson zero construction cylinder choke and took along flite control turkey loads and can now conclusively point to the Remington 20" barrel as the wad stripper.
At 10 yards the pattern with the turkey load was not as tight as generic bulk stuff I use for 3 gun (with either modified or IC chokes) and the wad was hitting at about 4 to 5 o'clock of the outer edge of the pattern which from what I can recall was even worse than the FC low recoil buck.
Considered sending the barrel off for modification (may eventually), but a combo of not wanting to sink money in to it due to the limited pursuits I use it for and not wanting to screw up the fact it shoots slugs and standard buck very well with a modified choke, shoots standard turkey loads well with a Remington Ventilator choke, and does just fine for 3 gun with the modified tube screwed in.
shadowrider
12-15-17, 23:49
I've patterned both Federal Flite Control 00 buck and the Hornady Critical Defense 00 buck with their Versatite wad. Both wads look identical to me. With the Federal load I can keep all pellets in the upper A-B zone of a USPSA target at 25 yards out of my 590A1. The Hornady pattern opens far faster out of the same gun. I hypothesize that the Hornady load since it is a full house load running 1600 FPS vs. the Federal at 1145 is shedding the wad sooner because the "wings" on the wad will get fully opened up quicker with the increased velocity. Even though the Hornady opens up faster than the Federal by a lot, they are still better than conventional loads at 25 yards and in.
NickySantoro
12-16-17, 07:41
Both wads look identical to me.
I read somewhere that both Federal and Hornady licensed the rights from the same inventor.
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