View Full Version : Optics and Old Guys.
Greetings. I really like the EOTech XPS-2 on my AR15. But my eyes are playing the aging job on me. I can no longer see a sharp dot and circle. (astigmatism?)
At 100 yards the dot is a small blur without much definition. Center mass I do fine. Neck and head shots are not so great now adays.
It has been suggested I go to a scope so I can return to those tight groups.
I'm on a tight retired guy budget. The only scopes I have available are a 4x32 Ruger and the 3-9x40 on my 7mm rem mag. I also have a red/green dot 1x (CP Tactical, I think. I can see a good dot in this one. but it is 4 moa.).
You fellas have any suggestions about what I should do or use? That is other than buy another scope or quit shooting?
Thanks for your help.
Doc Safari
07-21-15, 13:46
Check out the Trijicon reflex sights. The dot on that is a lot sharper than any Aimpoint or Eotech I've handled. It doesn't need batteries, either.
Chatterbox
07-21-15, 13:55
Why can't you use your existing scopes?
LS1POWERED
07-21-15, 14:07
I would go with something like the new Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6x, variable optics give you the best of both worlds, quick up close similar to a reddot, magnification when you need it for the longer shots, only downside is a bit more weight than a red dot.
Edit: The Strike Eagle is already selling for $299, very hard to beat that price.
Do you wear corrective lenses? I have astigmatism in my right eye which causes issues with red dots, as you've experienced. Several months ago, my eye doc moved me to contacts designed for astigmatism, and all is well again. If you don't want to go with a zoomed optic, you could also look at prism scopes, such as the Vortex Spitfire. They can be used during the day without being turned on, and since the reticle is etched in, it can't blur on you.
Thanks for the replies.
Buying new is out of the question for a while.
Thats kinda what I'm asking Chatterbox. Would I be better off with a tube scope?
The 4x32 Ruger scope worked on a 30-30. Would it stand up to the AR15?
Do you wear corrective lenses? I have astigmatism in my right eye which causes issues with red dots, as you've experienced. Several months ago, my eye doc moved me to contacts designed for astigmatism, and all is well again. If you don't want to go with a zoomed optic, you could also look at prism scopes, such as the Vortex Spitfire. They can be used during the day without being turned on, and since the reticle is etched in, it can't blur on you.
I wear glasses. Perhaps I'm due for an eye exam? I might give that a try. If they can fix yours with contacts maybe they can fix mine with new glasses.
At 53 and several eye operations, I use a 3-9x40 out to 300 yards. I have canted side mount irons for close in targets. I shoot local "outlaw" 3-gun and get by OK.
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I am glad you started this thread as I am having the same issue. I have had an Aimpoint ML2 mounted on my carbine for well over ten years. The older my eyes get, the more the red dot looks like a star burst when the light intensity is a little high. I compensate by turning down the light intensity and it seems to help.
When I have to turn the sight completely off to get rid of the star burst, I'll have to find another sight. Any suggestions for an alternative to the ML2 would be greatly appreciated.
SocomShooter
07-21-15, 17:39
I just installed a 4x32 scope on my Rock River Operator upper and love the setup. I paired it with an ADM 1-piece QD mount and it's rock solid. I wanted a setup that would just give me a little "bump" for shooting further out, but also be friendly for 50yds and closer.
I say go with the 4x32 :D
One other thing to try is get vermillion colored safety glasses. Vermillion enhances red. You can turn down the dot intensity and still have the dot clear. I'm red/green color blind and even the brightest red dot gets washed out in bright sunlight. If you shoot clays, it enhances them too. Grainger has them pretty cheap.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/21/8f1905c99814bf1590721bd565a18430.jpg
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I am glad you started this thread as I am having the same issue. I have had an Aimpoint ML2 mounted on my carbine for well over ten years. The older my eyes get, the more the red dot looks like a star burst when the light intensity is a little high. I compensate by turning down the light intensity and it seems to help.
When I have to turn the sight completely off to get rid of the star burst, I'll have to find another sight. Any suggestions for an alternative to the ML2 would be greatly appreciated.
It depends on what your needs are. But let me suggest that you consider one of the prismatic optics. Maybe try something like the Vortex Spitfire (which comes in 1x and 3x). Prismatics seem to be the hot thing right now, maybe because a lot of people who have red dots now have the same vision issue as many people in this thread. But prismatics are not cheap.
Also, you guys might want to look into a low power variable scope. I know money is tight for a lot of people. So if you are looking for something to use on a range beater gun, you should consider the Primary Arms 1-4x24 (for $119, and an extended Primary Arms mount is only an extra $49). It's got an illuminated 2 MOA center dot in addition to the German #4 style reticle. The adjustment knobs feel low quality. But the optical clarity/sharpness is better than a Vortex Viper Viper PST 1-4x which costs about 4 times as much.
Joe Mamma
I have an EXPS2. I had the same problem you have. Put my glasses on and problem solved. I use glasses with all my non magnified sights. Don't use them with scopes.
Greetings. I really like the EOTech XPS-2 on my AR15. But my eyes are playing the aging job on me. I can no longer see a sharp dot and circle. (astigmatism?)
At 100 yards the dot is a small blur without much definition. Center mass I do fine. Neck and head shots are not so great now adays.
It has been suggested I go to a scope so I can return to those tight groups.
I'm on a tight retired guy budget. The only scopes I have available are a 4x32 Ruger and the 3-9x40 on my 7mm rem mag. I also have a red/green dot 1x (CP Tactical, I think. I can see a good dot in this one. but it is 4 moa.).
You fellas have any suggestions about what I should do or use? That is other than buy another scope or quit shooting?
Thanks for your help.
If it was formerly sharp and now just a blur in a short amount of time, I'd have your eyes checked. At 53 my close up vision has taken a nose dive but it's happened slowly, over time. I've always had an astigmatism, so red dots are never perfectly round. Sometimes I get a ghost figure eight, or if the intensity is turned way up, more of a star like pattern. None of this has affected my ability to make shots at any distance. If you're having trouble at 100 yrds with shots you used to make, I'd definitely see the eye doc. From one retired guy to another, hope you get it resolved.
Edited to add; I wear corrective lenses, both contacts and glasses (not at the same time obviously).
I cant address the other type sights, but I'm using an older 2-7 Redfield on an A-2 and am happily hitting the 22" 600 yard plate and plinking rocks to about 900 yards or so. I'm a believer in scopes.
At 70 my eyes have been changing for the past 10 years. I wear the bi-focals all the time. Otherwise I bump into things.
I hate to remove the OETech. It has been good at steady and snap shots.
I like time at the range. But, I use the AR15 in .223 and a 22 pistol for hog hunting.
When sighting the EOTech in I sight at 55m. That gives me 2" high at 100m and right on at 200m. Shots over 50 to 100m are rare in the woods and swamp.
Hopefully the 4x32 will sight in like the OETech. I'll give it a try.
4x may (or may not) be a bit much for moving stuff at relatively close range. Would the 7mm do OK with the 4x and use the 3-9 on the AR? I did fine with a fixed 4x on my 338 for general shooting, but it wasnt much woods type stuff.
I guess you can try it and see how it does. You could swap them if need be and see how that works.
I used this scope for a while:http://swfa.com/Leupold-25x20-FX-II-Ultralight-Riflescope-P3264.aspx
Fast, light, and durable. I found it to be as fast as a red dot in daylight conditions shooting with both eyes open. Excellent for snap shots. I used an ADM mount.
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/NoveskePhotos0014.jpg
A RDS project the dot in the same plane as the target. You aren't supposed to focus on the dot. If you see the target clearly, you should see the dot clearly.
It's possible but unlikely you've developed astigmatism. More likely just presbyopia. In the event it's related to something else, some other eye disease, yes, by all means see an eye doctor. Presbyopia and astigmatism are correctable with accurate refraction.
deputy tom
07-22-15, 18:39
A RDS project the dot in the same plane as the target. You aren't supposed to focus on the dot. If you see the target clearly, you should see the dot clearly.
It's possible but unlikely you've developed astigmatism. More likely just presbyopia. In the event it's related to something else, some other eye disease, yes, by all means see an eye doctor. Presbyopia and astigmatism are correctable with accurate refraction.
I suffer from both of these and wear corrective lenses. I have no problem with red dots or holographic sights. I'm trying to understand this. tom.
My vision has faded a considerable amount over the past 5 years. I took my tried and true carbine with Aimpoint ML2 and another carbine with iron sights to the range and ran through some CQB drills involving engaging targets at 15 yards and closer. Both weapons have the same flashlight and sling.
I shot a lot faster and more precise with iron sights than with the ML2. That was not the case 2 years ago.
Any suggestions for a RDS to be used without prescription eyeglasses would be much appreciated.
I don't b believe any RDS requires prescription glasses.
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A RDS project the dot in the same plane as the target. You aren't supposed to focus on the dot. If you see the target clearly, you should see the dot clearly.
It's possible but unlikely you've developed astigmatism. More likely just presbyopia. In the event it's related to something else, some other eye disease, yes, by all means see an eye doctor. Presbyopia and astigmatism are correctable with accurate refraction.
This is why I mentioned prescription eye glasses.
Chatterbox
07-22-15, 20:54
My vision has faded a considerable amount over the past 5 years. I took my tried and true carbine with Aimpoint ML2 and another carbine with iron sights to the range and ran through some CQB drills involving engaging targets at 15 yards and closer. Both weapons have the same flashlight and sling.
I shot a lot faster and more precise with iron sights than with the ML2. That was not the case 2 years ago.
Any suggestions for a RDS to be used without prescription eyeglasses would be much appreciated.
You need a prism 1x sight or perhaps a 1.5x ACOG.
Singlestack Wonder
07-22-15, 21:54
Check out the Trijicon reflex sights. The dot on that is a lot sharper than any Aimpoint or Eotech I've handled. It doesn't need batteries, either.
With the Trijicon Dual Illuminated reflex sights, when shooting from a dark area into a bright area, the reticle disappears. I would only use a dual illuminated sight on a game gun, not a serious use weapon.
daddyusmaximus
07-22-15, 22:59
I was looking for a low power scope for my 16" AR and was considering the Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6 as mentioned before. The budget took a hit and I stumbled upon a good deal on a NIB Nikon P-223 1.5-4.5x20 BDC 600 Scope already mounted in a Burris PEPR Quick Detach Mount. Nice scope for the money. 1/4" per click tactical turrets.
I don't b believe any RDS requires prescription glasses.
Glasses would be needed for use with an RDS to correct distant vision if the person was near-sighted, and/or to correct astigmatism.
Glasses would be needed for use with an RDS to correct distant vision if the person was near-sighted, and/or to correct astigmatism.
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong but the glasses are correcting the vision regardless of the use of an RDS, irons or scope. That person would need glasses no matter what.
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I solved this problem for myself by going to a variable optic with a RDS piggybacking. I am really digging the set up so far. Been using it for a few months now.
Greetings. I really like the EOTech XPS-2 on my AR15. But my eyes are playing the aging job on me. I can no longer see a sharp dot and circle. (astigmatism?)
At 100 yards the dot is a small blur without much definition. Center mass I do fine. Neck and head shots are not so great now adays.
It has been suggested I go to a scope so I can return to those tight groups.
I'm on a tight retired guy budget. The only scopes I have available are a 4x32 Ruger and the 3-9x40 on my 7mm rem mag. I also have a red/green dot 1x (CP Tactical, I think. I can see a good dot in this one. but it is 4 moa.).
You fellas have any suggestions about what I should do or use? That is other than buy another scope or quit shooting?
Thanks for your help.
I don't think anyone has mentioned this you but have you tried looking through your BUIS at the dot? It should clean it up so you can make those long more precision shots. I'm just about 50 and have astigmatisms and this cleans that dot right up on my Aimpoints. Just the rear one is all you need flipped up and the starburst will be gone. It's like magic.
This also worked for me
I don't think anyone has mentioned this you but have you tried looking through your BUIS at the dot? It should clean it up so you can make those long more precision shots. I'm just about 50 and have astigmatisms and this cleans that dot right up on my Aimpoints. Just the rear one is all you need flipped up and the starburst will be gone. It's like magic.
militarymoron
08-17-15, 12:31
I don't think anyone has mentioned this you but have you tried looking through your BUIS at the dot? It should clean it up so you can make those long more precision shots. I'm just about 50 and have astigmatisms and this cleans that dot right up on my Aimpoints. Just the rear one is all you need flipped up and the starburst will be gone. It's like magic.
I used to do this (flip up the rear aperture) when zeroing my RDS, as i have crappy eyesight and astigmatism, and also see a starburst, not a distinct dot. however, the issue i encountered with doing this is that when i flipped down the rear aperture and used the RDS without it, my POI would sometimes change. the part of the starburst, or elongated dot that i'd be using may not have the same center as the dot that my eyes saw with the rear sight flipped up. not so apparent at close range, but made a difference at 50 yds. since i don't normally shoot with the rear aperture up, i've begun to check my zero with the rear aperture up and down to ensure that i note any POI shift.
I used to do this (flip up the rear aperture) when zeroing my RDS, as i have crappy eyesight and astigmatism, and also see a starburst, not a distinct dot. however, the issue i encountered with doing this is that when i flipped down the rear aperture and used the RDS without it, my POI would sometimes change. the part of the starburst, or elongated dot that i'd be using may not have the same center as the dot that my eyes saw with the rear sight flipped up. not so apparent at close range, but made a difference at 50 yds. since i don't normally shoot with the rear aperture up, i've begun to check my zero with the rear aperture up and down to ensure that i note any POI shift.
Interesting. My question is is the POI shift so bad at 50 yards that a man sized target would be missed? I zero at 100 yards with the BUIS up. 25 yards and in I shoot with them dawn and deal with the starburst. Longer shots I flip them up and do ok. I am not a marksmen but I can hit a 20" gong at 100 yards prone easy this way. Can't do it with the BUIS down. The dot covers the gong. I have seen guys hit at 300 with Aimpoints but I can't. I like my ACOG TA11 for that..
militarymoron
08-18-15, 00:22
i noticed a POI shift of about 3-4 inches at 50 yds for one of them. that's significant when the scoring circle is 8" in diameter, because half my shots can be out of the circle.
i don't always notice a shift. depends on the shape of the amoeba that i see, LOL. but i've begun taking notice/checking when doing my initial sight-in.
Thanks for the good info on the astigmatism, red dots and some work arounds to the issues. Tagged
I just ordered my third rds and don't expect my issues with dots to go away.
Thanks for the good info on the astigmatism, red dots and some work arounds to the issues. Tagged
I just ordered my third rds and don't expect my issues with dots to go away.
I'm with you on that it's not going away without surgery. I got a tip that works great for me. If I go shooting in the AM I have 2000mg vitamin C with breakfast. Believe it or not I see much clearer and the dot blooms less. Way less. YMMV but it's worth a try. I look at red dots a CQB optics so 50 yards in. At the even the starburst will get you hits on a human sized target. When I reach out the BUIS go up and I dial the dot to the lowest setting I can get buy with and I am happy with the results. :-)
I'm with you on that it's not going away without surgery. I got a tip that works great for me. If I go shooting in the AM I have 2000mg vitamin C with breakfast. Believe it or not I see much clearer and the dot blooms less. Way less. YMMV but it's worth a try. I look at red dots a CQB optics so 50 yards in. At the even the starburst will get you hits on a human sized target. When I reach out the BUIS go up and I dial the dot to the lowest setting I can get buy with and I am happy with the results. :-)
I use to think it was cheap dots that I had problems with. I own a Bushnell TRS-25 (less than a hundred) and a Nikon RDS (just over $200). For a turkey gun and CQB on an AR they got the job done. Now, just ordered the Trijicon MRO and we will see what happens there but not hopeful of any changes in my perceived view of the dot.
I do notice that the dot is not constant. Sometimes, just a starburst, sometimes a comet with a tail, but the most troublesome is when I actually see two dots which are connected by a comet tail (which one is the real aiming point???).
Hopefully the MRO will be better and I will try the vitamin C dose - it can't hurt.
I use to think it was cheap dots that I had problems with. I own a Bushnell TRS-25 (less than a hundred) and a Nikon RDS (just over $200). For a turkey gun and CQB on an AR they got the job done. Now, just ordered the Trijicon MRO and we will see what happens there but not hopeful of any changes in my perceived view of the dot.
I do notice that the dot is not constant. Sometimes, just a starburst, sometimes a comet with a tail, but the most troublesome is when I actually see two dots which are connected by a comet tail (which one is the real aiming point???).
Hopefully the MRO will be better and I will try the vitamin C dose - it can't hurt.
I too per-ordered the MRO. I try most every high end red dot that comes out. I am sorry to say with a astigmatism They are pretty much the same. The BUIS is the only fix I have found. militarymoron found out some interesting things about POI I did not no about or notice. Maybe I am just a bad shot LOL... :-P
Talks about our eye issues...:dance3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSShOQYUqjE
Talks about our eye issues...:dance3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSShOQYUqjE
SWEET! He talks about aging eyes and astigmatism and says "the dot is still a dot with this optic" sloppy quote, but close. That video pumped up my excitement about the MRO.
SWEET! He talks about aging eyes and astigmatism and says "the dot is still a dot with this optic" sloppy quote, but close. That video pumped up my excitement about the MRO.
But notice he had his BUIS up. A co-witness mount is the best way to go under our situation IMHO...
But notice he had his BUIS up. A co-witness mount is the best way to go under our situation IMHO...
You don't think the lower 1/3 mount will work with the BUIS up? Bluntly this is all new to me, so I am genuinely curious. I bought it with the lower 1/3 mount, but I plan on getting a LaRue mount when they become available. I told myself I could sell the lower 1/3 mount reasonable to someone after I ordered the LaRue.
You don't think the lower 1/3 mount will work with the BUIS up? Bluntly this is all new to me, so I am genuinely curious. I bought it with the lower 1/3 mount, but I plan on getting a LaRue mount when they become available. I told myself I could sell the lower 1/3 mount reasonable to someone after I ordered the LaRue.
I'm sure the lower 1/3 will make the dot more clear. It may just make the POI a bit off at distant shoots. Give it a shoot. If the POI is way off with the BUIS up get a LaRue
Absolute mount and call it good...
Greetings. I really like the EOTech XPS-2 on my AR15. But my eyes are playing the aging job on me. I can no longer see a sharp dot and circle. (astigmatism?)
At 100 yards the dot is a small blur without much definition. Center mass I do fine. Neck and head shots are not so great now adays.
It has been suggested I go to a scope so I can return to those tight groups.
I'm on a tight retired guy budget. The only scopes I have available are a 4x32 Ruger and the 3-9x40 on my 7mm rem mag. I also have a red/green dot 1x (CP Tactical, I think. I can see a good dot in this one. but it is 4 moa.).
You fellas have any suggestions about what I should do or use? That is other than buy another scope or quit shooting?
Thanks for your help.
I am 71 and have had astigmatism problenms for years. Wear your glasses when you shoot. There is no other good answer.
Coyotehunter_
08-28-15, 13:40
[QUOTE=Clay34;2165785]I use to think it was cheap dots that I had problems with. I own a Bushnell TRS-25 (less than a hundred) and a Nikon RDS (just over $200). For a turkey gun and CQB on an AR they got the job done. Now, just ordered the Trijicon MRO and we will see what happens there but not hopeful of any changes in my perceived view of the dot.
I do notice that the dot is not constant. Sometimes, just a starburst, sometimes a comet with a tail, but the most troublesome is when I actually see two dots which are connected by a comet tail (which one is the real aiming point???).
My Best Advise to you older gentlemen shooters with fading eye sight is to go to the eye doctor and have a good eye exam and get corrective eye glasses OR Contact Lens. They can correct for not perfectly rounded Cornea (Astigmatism) where the light focus it not all perfectly centered on the retina. Some light waves are focued in front of the retina and some behind the retina when you have a really bad case of Astigmatism as I had.
Glasses can be ground to correct for this problem and also to correct for near sightedness and farsightedness. I wore really thick eye glasses when I was in my 40's. As I aged my near vision got worse. When I was in my 60's I developed cataracts and opted to have the old natural eye lenss inside the eye remove with a surgical procedure and the eye surgeon installed new artificial Inter Occular Lens into both my eyes. These help correct for near sightedness and now I can see object from 10 ft away out to infinity with almost 20/20 vision. The eye surgeon used a laser to reshape my cornea to make it more round and that got ride of my astigmatism in both eye to some degree.
When you have astigmatism you May see two dots instead of one. I use an EOTech EXPS3-4 system with the G33 flip to the side magnifier. But I was seeing two rows of 4 dots on top of each other. One row to the left and one row of red dots slightly higher and to the right. I didn't know which red dot to use.
After my cataract eye operations and the laser surgery the astigmatism is gone for the most part.
If you have trouble seeing the 1 MOA red dot on an EOTech HWS then try turning down the light intensity to see if that helps. the 65 MOA circle is made up of a number or dots position in a fashion to make a 65 MOA sized circle and then there is one 1 MOA size red dot in the middle or 2 or maybe 4 dots lined up on top of each other for the various types of reticles in the EOTech EXPS system. The EXPS 3.0 has one red dot in the middle of the big circle. The EXPS3.2 has two red dots inside the 65 MOA circle. Both of these dots are inside the circle and stacked on top of each other. My EXPS3.4 HWS has four 1 MOA sized red dots lined up vertically one on top of the other. Each read dot is for different distances. 0 to 300 yards. 400 yards, 500 yard and 600 yards for the bottom red dot.
So there are a lot more dots if your eye has a mis-shapen cornea and you develop an astigmatism.
Even after paying over 2,400 dollars for the eye operation I still have a slight astigmatism in my right eye at close range. Now at longer range vision the astigmatism is almost gone. I can watch TV and see the letters on the TV screen fine. But some times I see some ghost images in the letters on the screen. My eye shape is either changing when I blink or the operation didn't totally 100% correct my astigmatism.
The coming Jan will be the one year since I had my left eye's retina operated on for another problem. This operation can take up to a full year for the eye to heal. So I have to wait an entire year before I can go back to the eye doctor and get new prescription eye glasses or contacts to make my vision better.
Right now I use cheap reading eye glasses that I bought from the grocery store to read books and stuff with. I use another cheap pair of 1.25 diopter to see the computer screen as it's about 20" away where a book is closer to my face when I'm reading a book. To read a book up close I need a diopter of 2.50.
I have innocular artificial lens emplanted in both my eyes and one is a 13 diopter correction where the other is a 10 diopter correction. So I have to have the reading eye glasses to see up close as the IOL are only to correct for long range vision from 10 ft out to infinity and they are a fixed focal range.
Normal young eye have flexible clear lens inside the eye with muscles attack to them that can make them flex in order to change the focal point from near to far. As you age the muscle get weaker and the lens get harder and will get cloudy. At this time you may noticed that it's harder to focus up close on thing. This happens to most of us as we get older.
Insurance pays for the removal of cataracts in some cases which is a good thing. I had to pay $1,200 for each eye EXTRA as I opted to have the Surgeon use a new Laser machine to cut into my eye more precisely and to chop up my old natural lens that have the cataracts in them. The surgeon also used this new Laser system to cut slits on my cornea to correct for my astigmatism. IE he reshaped my cornea to make it more perfectly rounded so that the light rays passing though it would all focus better on my retina.
If you are shooting with optical sights then you should be able to get the eye doctor to help your vision out with either glasses, Contacts or eye surgery or both.
(This next sentence is just for the older guys who have had cataract eye surgery.
But if you are going to try to shoot with iron sights you will find it nearly impossible to be able to focus on the rear sight, the front sight and the target at distance all at the same time like you did when you were young after you have cataract eye surgery. )
If you are young and have healthy eye you are very lucky.
I also take vitamins that contain minerals and vitamins that are suppose to help you keep healthy eyes. Vitimans A, C and E help promote healthy eyes as does Luctin +.
Coyote Hunter, thanks for the thoughts. Lots of good info there.
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